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A furniture business called "Homliness" (Russian: политолог)? The Russian word in parentheses translates as political scientist. Homeliness as the name for a furniture store in BE would be fine (comfy like your own home), I think, but not so much in AE (unattractive person). Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
A lot of material about Torshin (not Butina) was added and then restored over my objection. How is this not off-topic? This is supposed to be a biography of Butina, not a description of the Kremlin's ties with American conservative groups. The explanation
given by
Enthusiast01 was: the material goes towards "grooming" and "establishing useful contacts" in the context of FBI and Congressional investigations)
What does that even mean? --
Dr. Fleischman (
talk) 09:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Knight IndustriesX2000, can you please explain your concerns about this edit? I was undoing disruptive, autobiographical edits by a sockpuppet IP account. Some of the added content was unduly promotional or supported only by unreliable sources. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 18:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
References
Will need to be in the article: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/russian-national-charged-conspiracy-act-agent-russian-federation-within-united-states . Casprings ( talk) 19:16, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
NY Times story: Woman Who Sought Secret Meeting for Trump and Putin Is Charged as Russian Agent https://nyti.ms/2NVn1CA?smid=nytcore-ios-share Casprings ( talk) 19:32, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Would just like to mention, legally until convicted she is still just an alleged Russian agent. To state anything otherwise could be considered libel especially if she is found not guilty on these charges. -- OKSDAHunter ( talk) 15:33, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Should this be "Maria" or "Mariia"? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 01:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
JzG, With this edit, cited content about Butina forming the Right to Bear Arms organization was removed. This disrupts the later cited content in the Gun rights section - and the organization's connection with members of the NRA.
It might not seem realistic, but 1) this is from someone who grew up in Siberia and hunted as a child and 2) how much of today's politics seems realistic? The true test is whether there are reliable sources for the information. New York Times, one of the sources, seems like a good start. See also this query of news sources.– CaroleHenson ( talk) 19:38, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
https://www.thedailybeast.com/who-whitewashed-the-wiki-of-alleged-russian-spy-maria-butina [1] [Note: added more detailed ref & related - hope this helps in some way - iac - enjoy! :) Drbogdan ( talk) 01:35, 25 July 2018 (UTC)]
Should anything be done? FusionLord ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
If you take a look at the bottom of your talk page here during an edit you'll see that your talk page is a member of "2 hidden categories". Ohhh. Spooky. Wikipedia is a labyrinth and a house of mirrors. Just remember you can easily kick down these walls and shatter these mirrors and nothing "hidden" here is hidden well.Funny.– CaroleHenson ( talk) 16:53, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
References
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
1. PLEASE CHANGE "Involvement in U.S. politics Gun rights" section TO "Involvement in U.S. politics National Rifle Association (NRA)"
2. PLEASE CHANGE: "Contents 1 Early life and education 2 Career 3 Involvement in U.S. politics 3.1 Gun rights" TO: "Contents 1 Early life and education 2 Career 3 Involvement in U.S. politics 3.1 National Rifle Association (NRA)"
THANK YOU. 172.58.184.80 ( talk) 01:33, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Why doesn't this entry mention anything about Butina's cohabiting with Erickson and attempting to use sex to get a job with someone else, according to FBI reports that were widely reported in WP:RS, including the New York Times?
I think the reason for its relevance is obvious, but it's not the job of WP editors to make that judgment.
It's the job of WP:RSs to make that judgment, and according to the policy WP:WEIGHT, we include it when it's prominently reported in multiple WP:RSs. Which it is. -- Nbauman ( talk) 05:18, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Butina's "Right to Bear Arms" group appears to be ru:Право на оружие (движение), although движение translates to "movement" presumably "social movement" ( ru:Общественное движение (социология)). The Russian article while may be RS, I have my concerns as this topic involves geopolitical foreign influence. If I don't get a response, I will add, and see what happens. X1\ ( talk) 13:40, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
What she is actually charged with should be clarified.
From Lawfare: No, Mariia Butina Wasn’t Charged With Violating FARA Geo8rge ( talk) 17:36, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
I removed a link to The Maria Butina Legal Expense Fund from the infobox. My reasoning is that a fundraising site is not appropriate to include in the infobox. The removal was reverted by Geo8rge, so I would like to discuss it here. – dlthewave ☎ 18:18, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
This is the info box of distric court cases. I was unable to get the image to load automatically and entered it's address and size manually. I suggest getting the image to load automatically before using the infobox. I would also suggest the current Maria Butina personal infobox be retained so as not to make the article biased against the defendant by only including a prosecutorial infobox.
United States of America v. Maria Butina | |
---|---|
Court | United States District Court for the District of Columbia |
Full case name | United States of America v. Mariia Butina also knorm as Maria Butina |
Defendant | Maria Butina |
Plaintiff(s) | United States of America |
Citation(s) | 18 U.S.C. § 951. |
Court membership | |
Judge(s) sitting | DEBORAH A. ROBINSON UNITED STATES MAGISTRATE JUDGE |
Geo8rge ( talk) 21:00, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
A recent edit (
diff) added a
Computer Fraud and Security Bulletin source published in January 1990, supporting the statement When Maria Butina was first arrested prosecutors accused her of using sex to gain power in a manner similar the 2018 spy thriller Red Sparrow.
I don't have access to the source, so could somebody please explain how the 1990 source relates to 2018 events? Am I missing something here? –
dlthewave
☎ 19:38, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Brief descriptions of the prosecutor and defense attorney have been added twice now. My opinion is that these individuals are irrelevant to Butina's biography and, if anything, we should simply mention their names in the section about the lawsuit. – dlthewave ☎ 00:21, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of contention between editors who want to expound on the court case and those who want a cleaner biographic page. I suggest splitting the "USA vs Maria Butina" section to a new page so that people can expound on the case to their heart's content. After a split, the "Maria Butina" page will still be notable because of her work to influence the NRA and American conservatives. The court case is notable because of its relation to the Russian influence campaign in the U.S. 2016 elections. Websurfer2 ( talk) 18:34, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove red links. ColinSheffer ( talk) 19:07, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
Good red links help Wikipedia—they encourage new contributors in useful directions, and remind us that Wikipedia is far from finished.If there's a specific red link you feel should be removed or redirected under that guideline, please point it out. ‑‑ ElHef ( Meep?) 19:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
The 'unreliable source' is Slate which is normally considered reliable. The charge is murky and difficult to understand as evidenced by the inability of journalists to report that she has been charged with failing to register as a foreign agent under one specific section of the USC, which is distinct from espionage. I repeat she has not, as of yet, been charged or accused with espionage.
The McClatchy article about the visits from Russian officials is poorly informed, for example, the article falsely claims "Butina is charged with being an in-plain-sight Russian agent" which sounds like espionage. I did not remove the edit, even though I think the source does not understand the issue, as the edit was properly sourced. Wikipedia does not permit independent research, but I will point out that a search on her Russian name brings up many links implying she is still an important story in Russia possibly explaining why Russian diplomats are making consular visits. I personally think questioning consular visits is dangerous given Americans often need such assistance when they have legal difficulties.
The editor that made these edits claims: "This user is no longer very active on Wikipedia". So I didn't bother them with the issue. Geo8rge ( talk) 19:25, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
No, we can't call her a spy. We can't even call her an "alleged spy" because there were no formal allegations made, only informal ones. (Anybody can allege anything). This is a biography of a living person, and we have to protect Wikipedia's reputation as well as hers. Yours, BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 17:09, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
What charge did she actually admit now? The article says it's the 18 U.S.C. §951, but that would mean a maximum of ten years in prison, not five. Here the plea deal document is quoted: “Your client agrees to plead guilty to count 1 in the indictment, charging your client with conspiracy to violate 18 USC § 951, in violation of 18 USC § 371.” To me that means she violated §371 when she conspired in order to violate §951, but she did not violate §951 (that violation of §951 was just planned, but not committed). That would also make much more sense to me as a plea deal since the maximum punishment for a violation of §371 is only half of that of §951. Sources like [2] also state that she conspired with Russian officials to infiltrate the conservative movement as an agent. That matches the mentioned quote, since the infiltration as an agent was only planned (and that plan is the conspiration). -- Gamba ( talk) 13:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I've removed these:
X1\ ( talk) 00:35, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Aboudaqn: can you give RSs as to why these are directly related to this person? I understanding the broad connection, and how a wp:Reader may possibly be interested in those too. But as far as I know, they are a stretch, and some more so than others. X1\ ( talk) 00:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
The related Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections has been called a "political pearl harbor", "an act of war" ( Dick Cheney, example), the "most successful covert operation in history" ( Michael Hayden), and Michael Morell compares it with 9/11. This is a deadly serious topic. Why include unrelated fiction? Why did you even pick these from the vast genre of spies? Why pick just these actual spies? Please keep on BRD. X1\ ( talk) 19:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
A recent article in New Republic contains some insightful analysis as well as some quotes from interviews with the subject. This one struck me:
~ Anachronist ( talk) 18:03, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
References
The lede already explains Butina's conviction. Adding in "convicted felon" to the first sentence comes across as very non-neutral. It's not who she is - it's a fact about her life that's explained a few sentences later. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 15:54, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
First, her claim to being a gun-rights activist is no longer her main source of notability; it doesn't make sense to use that as the main part of the lead. Second, her previous activity and our personal interpretation of what that means notwithstanding, US prosecutors have dismissed that self-description, describing it as
a cover and saying that But it was all a ruse, federal prosecutors say, a cover for Ms. Butina to advance Russia’s agenda within the Republican Party.
We have to make it clear that her self-identification as (primarily) a gun-rights activist is contested; we can't present it as established fact when we have such a high-profile source disagreeing with it. --
Aquillion (
talk) 18:43, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
"Maria Butina: Russian gun activist in US conspiracy case"- BBC
"A Russian gun rights activist serving a U.S. prison sentence for acting as an unregistered foreign agent has released a video asking for money to help pay her legal costs."- Associated Press
"A federal judge sentenced the Russian gun-rights activist Maria Butina to 18 months in prison on Friday, after she tried to infiltrate US conservative groups and the National Rifle Association to promote Russian political interests around the 2016 election."- The Guardian
"Attorneys for Maria Butina and U.S. prosecutors have jointly asked a federal judge to order the gun-rights activist deported to her native Russia after she is sentenced on April 26 for conspiring with a senior Russian official to infiltrate conservative American groups as an undeclared agent for the Kremlin."- LA Times
"US prosecutors have dismissed that self-description": US prosecutors made a whole number of claims about her, some of which turned out to be false. For example, they claimed that her relationship with Paul Erickson was a deliberate cover. The judge severely criticized the prosecution for misrepresenting evidence to support that claim:
But the judge also had a warning for prosecutors in the case, who recently acknowledged they had misinterpreted messages between Butina and a friend to make the false claim that she was trying to trade sex for a job. [...]
"It took me approximately five minutes to read those emails and tell that they were jokes," Chutkan said. "It was apparent on its face."
Chutkan said she was "concerned" that officials at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Washington, D.C., and the Justice Department would read the exchanges and somehow find otherwise.
...accused Russian agent Maria Butina, headline.
An attorney for Maria Butina -- the accused Russian agent who was sentenced to 18 months in prison earlier this year..., first sentence.
Russian foreign agent Maria Butina
Russian agent Maria Butina, U.S. prosecutors ask judge for her deportation, headline.
Accused Russian spy Maria Butina, headline; similar in first sentence.
Russian Agent Maria Butina, headline.
Maria Butina, Russian agent who conspired to infiltrate NRA, headline.
Described by some as a Russian “spy,” Butina, 30, was actually a master networker -- a woman who used her purported interest in gun rights to facilitate meetings with NRA officials and prominent figures in the Republican party.
US prosecutors routinely overcharge and leak to the press to pollute the jury pool and to pre-try cases in the court of public opinion. Their allegations are not reliable sources of fact. State prosecutors Nifong and Corey were unreliable sources in the Duke Lacrosse case and Zimmermann case respectively; federal prosecutor Howen was an unreliable source in the Ruby Ridge case. The list unfortunately is long.
The PR guy for Butina's gun rights group paid her car insurance for her when she was broke. The txt msgs were:
The US judge was not amused to find out that these txts were what prosecutors used to tell the court:
This txt exchange supports painting Maria Butina as an actual Red Sparrow (as WP:RS NBC News implied)? -- Naaman Brown ( talk) 11:06, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Two editors have removed the fact that Butina is a gun-rights activist who founded "Right to Bear Arms." Their rationale is that this was supposedly a "cover story" used to "infiltrate" the NRA. I have to seriously question how familiar these people are with Butina's case, because this shows a very basic misunderstanding of what she was accused of. Butina was not a covert agent. She had no "cover." The accusation was that she was lobbying - very publicly - without properly registering. She didn't "infiltrate" the NRA. Making up stories about infiltration and cover stories and writing them into edit summaries is a very serious BLP violation. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 15:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
conspiracy to act as an unregistered agent for Russia. [13] She
tried to infiltrate US conservative groups and the National Rifle Association to promote Russian political interests around the 2016 election.[14] She
has admitted to working as a Russian agent to infiltrate an influential gun rights group[15] and to
conspiring with a senior Russian official to infiltrate conservative American political circles by acting as an undeclared agent for the Kremlin. [16] This is what the sources say; saying that there is no indication that she was working on behalf of the Russian government seems a bit weird. If you're unhappy with that and somehow think using these sources is a WP:BLP violation, take it to WP:BLPN. -- Aquillion ( talk) 05:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
infiltrate, as I demonstrated above. We have to go with what they say. Also, more recent sources (after her confession) generally describe her as some variation on "(accused) Russian agent" or "(accused) spy", often without the "accused" - simply stating it as fact. -- Aquillion ( talk) 04:47, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
30-year-old spy Maria Butina will be sentenced in April for conspiring to infiltrate the NRA on behalf of Russia, headline;
Maria Butina, who has admitted to working as a Russian agent to infiltrate an influential gun rights group and make inroads with US conservative activists and Republicans, body.
Maria Butina: 'covert Russian agent' will plead guilty over effort to infiltrate NRA
Maria Butina sentenced to 18 months for trying to infiltrate US right and NRA
Maria Butina, Russian who conspired to infiltrate NRA, to be sentenced April 26
X1\ ( talk) 23:18, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
"She grew up in the Siberian taiga—large boreal forests—where her father introduced her to guns and taught her to hunt.[12] Butina said: "It is a rare Siberian who can imagine himself without a rifle in the home."[21]"
It appears B. grew up in a city of more than 600,000 people, surrounded by "steppe," not forest. Note 12 merely asserts that her father "taught her to shoot," not hunt. The cited material doesn't describe the scene of her childhood as "forest."
Note 21 may be accurate but it appears to be hyperbole. Reasonable sources suggest Russia gun ownership at 6.5% of population, vs. 37% U.S.
2601:405:4A80:9E50:A5E8:57B6:C1E5:657A ( talk) 12:34, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFLKm4Q78sg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:2A08:EA00:5D4E:B866:F6BD:A6A8 ( talk) 19:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
To add to this article: in which city of Russia she is based. The timeline states that she was deported to Moscow in 2019, but I don't think she lives in Moscow. If she lives in Barnaul, the article should state this.
173.88.246.138 ( talk) 23:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Why is Donald Trump mentioned in this article since there is absolutely no connection between this woman and Donald Trump? 2601:44:0:E660:5147:E25E:9CAF:DCBC ( talk) 13:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
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A furniture business called "Homliness" (Russian: политолог)? The Russian word in parentheses translates as political scientist. Homeliness as the name for a furniture store in BE would be fine (comfy like your own home), I think, but not so much in AE (unattractive person). Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
A lot of material about Torshin (not Butina) was added and then restored over my objection. How is this not off-topic? This is supposed to be a biography of Butina, not a description of the Kremlin's ties with American conservative groups. The explanation
given by
Enthusiast01 was: the material goes towards "grooming" and "establishing useful contacts" in the context of FBI and Congressional investigations)
What does that even mean? --
Dr. Fleischman (
talk) 09:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Knight IndustriesX2000, can you please explain your concerns about this edit? I was undoing disruptive, autobiographical edits by a sockpuppet IP account. Some of the added content was unduly promotional or supported only by unreliable sources. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 18:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
References
Will need to be in the article: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/russian-national-charged-conspiracy-act-agent-russian-federation-within-united-states . Casprings ( talk) 19:16, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
NY Times story: Woman Who Sought Secret Meeting for Trump and Putin Is Charged as Russian Agent https://nyti.ms/2NVn1CA?smid=nytcore-ios-share Casprings ( talk) 19:32, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Would just like to mention, legally until convicted she is still just an alleged Russian agent. To state anything otherwise could be considered libel especially if she is found not guilty on these charges. -- OKSDAHunter ( talk) 15:33, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Should this be "Maria" or "Mariia"? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 01:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
JzG, With this edit, cited content about Butina forming the Right to Bear Arms organization was removed. This disrupts the later cited content in the Gun rights section - and the organization's connection with members of the NRA.
It might not seem realistic, but 1) this is from someone who grew up in Siberia and hunted as a child and 2) how much of today's politics seems realistic? The true test is whether there are reliable sources for the information. New York Times, one of the sources, seems like a good start. See also this query of news sources.– CaroleHenson ( talk) 19:38, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
https://www.thedailybeast.com/who-whitewashed-the-wiki-of-alleged-russian-spy-maria-butina [1] [Note: added more detailed ref & related - hope this helps in some way - iac - enjoy! :) Drbogdan ( talk) 01:35, 25 July 2018 (UTC)]
Should anything be done? FusionLord ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
If you take a look at the bottom of your talk page here during an edit you'll see that your talk page is a member of "2 hidden categories". Ohhh. Spooky. Wikipedia is a labyrinth and a house of mirrors. Just remember you can easily kick down these walls and shatter these mirrors and nothing "hidden" here is hidden well.Funny.– CaroleHenson ( talk) 16:53, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
References
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
1. PLEASE CHANGE "Involvement in U.S. politics Gun rights" section TO "Involvement in U.S. politics National Rifle Association (NRA)"
2. PLEASE CHANGE: "Contents 1 Early life and education 2 Career 3 Involvement in U.S. politics 3.1 Gun rights" TO: "Contents 1 Early life and education 2 Career 3 Involvement in U.S. politics 3.1 National Rifle Association (NRA)"
THANK YOU. 172.58.184.80 ( talk) 01:33, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Why doesn't this entry mention anything about Butina's cohabiting with Erickson and attempting to use sex to get a job with someone else, according to FBI reports that were widely reported in WP:RS, including the New York Times?
I think the reason for its relevance is obvious, but it's not the job of WP editors to make that judgment.
It's the job of WP:RSs to make that judgment, and according to the policy WP:WEIGHT, we include it when it's prominently reported in multiple WP:RSs. Which it is. -- Nbauman ( talk) 05:18, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Butina's "Right to Bear Arms" group appears to be ru:Право на оружие (движение), although движение translates to "movement" presumably "social movement" ( ru:Общественное движение (социология)). The Russian article while may be RS, I have my concerns as this topic involves geopolitical foreign influence. If I don't get a response, I will add, and see what happens. X1\ ( talk) 13:40, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
What she is actually charged with should be clarified.
From Lawfare: No, Mariia Butina Wasn’t Charged With Violating FARA Geo8rge ( talk) 17:36, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
I removed a link to The Maria Butina Legal Expense Fund from the infobox. My reasoning is that a fundraising site is not appropriate to include in the infobox. The removal was reverted by Geo8rge, so I would like to discuss it here. – dlthewave ☎ 18:18, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
This is the info box of distric court cases. I was unable to get the image to load automatically and entered it's address and size manually. I suggest getting the image to load automatically before using the infobox. I would also suggest the current Maria Butina personal infobox be retained so as not to make the article biased against the defendant by only including a prosecutorial infobox.
United States of America v. Maria Butina | |
---|---|
Court | United States District Court for the District of Columbia |
Full case name | United States of America v. Mariia Butina also knorm as Maria Butina |
Defendant | Maria Butina |
Plaintiff(s) | United States of America |
Citation(s) | 18 U.S.C. § 951. |
Court membership | |
Judge(s) sitting | DEBORAH A. ROBINSON UNITED STATES MAGISTRATE JUDGE |
Geo8rge ( talk) 21:00, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
A recent edit (
diff) added a
Computer Fraud and Security Bulletin source published in January 1990, supporting the statement When Maria Butina was first arrested prosecutors accused her of using sex to gain power in a manner similar the 2018 spy thriller Red Sparrow.
I don't have access to the source, so could somebody please explain how the 1990 source relates to 2018 events? Am I missing something here? –
dlthewave
☎ 19:38, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Brief descriptions of the prosecutor and defense attorney have been added twice now. My opinion is that these individuals are irrelevant to Butina's biography and, if anything, we should simply mention their names in the section about the lawsuit. – dlthewave ☎ 00:21, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of contention between editors who want to expound on the court case and those who want a cleaner biographic page. I suggest splitting the "USA vs Maria Butina" section to a new page so that people can expound on the case to their heart's content. After a split, the "Maria Butina" page will still be notable because of her work to influence the NRA and American conservatives. The court case is notable because of its relation to the Russian influence campaign in the U.S. 2016 elections. Websurfer2 ( talk) 18:34, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove red links. ColinSheffer ( talk) 19:07, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
Good red links help Wikipedia—they encourage new contributors in useful directions, and remind us that Wikipedia is far from finished.If there's a specific red link you feel should be removed or redirected under that guideline, please point it out. ‑‑ ElHef ( Meep?) 19:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
The 'unreliable source' is Slate which is normally considered reliable. The charge is murky and difficult to understand as evidenced by the inability of journalists to report that she has been charged with failing to register as a foreign agent under one specific section of the USC, which is distinct from espionage. I repeat she has not, as of yet, been charged or accused with espionage.
The McClatchy article about the visits from Russian officials is poorly informed, for example, the article falsely claims "Butina is charged with being an in-plain-sight Russian agent" which sounds like espionage. I did not remove the edit, even though I think the source does not understand the issue, as the edit was properly sourced. Wikipedia does not permit independent research, but I will point out that a search on her Russian name brings up many links implying she is still an important story in Russia possibly explaining why Russian diplomats are making consular visits. I personally think questioning consular visits is dangerous given Americans often need such assistance when they have legal difficulties.
The editor that made these edits claims: "This user is no longer very active on Wikipedia". So I didn't bother them with the issue. Geo8rge ( talk) 19:25, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
No, we can't call her a spy. We can't even call her an "alleged spy" because there were no formal allegations made, only informal ones. (Anybody can allege anything). This is a biography of a living person, and we have to protect Wikipedia's reputation as well as hers. Yours, BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 17:09, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
What charge did she actually admit now? The article says it's the 18 U.S.C. §951, but that would mean a maximum of ten years in prison, not five. Here the plea deal document is quoted: “Your client agrees to plead guilty to count 1 in the indictment, charging your client with conspiracy to violate 18 USC § 951, in violation of 18 USC § 371.” To me that means she violated §371 when she conspired in order to violate §951, but she did not violate §951 (that violation of §951 was just planned, but not committed). That would also make much more sense to me as a plea deal since the maximum punishment for a violation of §371 is only half of that of §951. Sources like [2] also state that she conspired with Russian officials to infiltrate the conservative movement as an agent. That matches the mentioned quote, since the infiltration as an agent was only planned (and that plan is the conspiration). -- Gamba ( talk) 13:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I've removed these:
X1\ ( talk) 00:35, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Aboudaqn: can you give RSs as to why these are directly related to this person? I understanding the broad connection, and how a wp:Reader may possibly be interested in those too. But as far as I know, they are a stretch, and some more so than others. X1\ ( talk) 00:46, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
The related Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections has been called a "political pearl harbor", "an act of war" ( Dick Cheney, example), the "most successful covert operation in history" ( Michael Hayden), and Michael Morell compares it with 9/11. This is a deadly serious topic. Why include unrelated fiction? Why did you even pick these from the vast genre of spies? Why pick just these actual spies? Please keep on BRD. X1\ ( talk) 19:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
A recent article in New Republic contains some insightful analysis as well as some quotes from interviews with the subject. This one struck me:
~ Anachronist ( talk) 18:03, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
References
The lede already explains Butina's conviction. Adding in "convicted felon" to the first sentence comes across as very non-neutral. It's not who she is - it's a fact about her life that's explained a few sentences later. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 15:54, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
First, her claim to being a gun-rights activist is no longer her main source of notability; it doesn't make sense to use that as the main part of the lead. Second, her previous activity and our personal interpretation of what that means notwithstanding, US prosecutors have dismissed that self-description, describing it as
a cover and saying that But it was all a ruse, federal prosecutors say, a cover for Ms. Butina to advance Russia’s agenda within the Republican Party.
We have to make it clear that her self-identification as (primarily) a gun-rights activist is contested; we can't present it as established fact when we have such a high-profile source disagreeing with it. --
Aquillion (
talk) 18:43, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
"Maria Butina: Russian gun activist in US conspiracy case"- BBC
"A Russian gun rights activist serving a U.S. prison sentence for acting as an unregistered foreign agent has released a video asking for money to help pay her legal costs."- Associated Press
"A federal judge sentenced the Russian gun-rights activist Maria Butina to 18 months in prison on Friday, after she tried to infiltrate US conservative groups and the National Rifle Association to promote Russian political interests around the 2016 election."- The Guardian
"Attorneys for Maria Butina and U.S. prosecutors have jointly asked a federal judge to order the gun-rights activist deported to her native Russia after she is sentenced on April 26 for conspiring with a senior Russian official to infiltrate conservative American groups as an undeclared agent for the Kremlin."- LA Times
"US prosecutors have dismissed that self-description": US prosecutors made a whole number of claims about her, some of which turned out to be false. For example, they claimed that her relationship with Paul Erickson was a deliberate cover. The judge severely criticized the prosecution for misrepresenting evidence to support that claim:
But the judge also had a warning for prosecutors in the case, who recently acknowledged they had misinterpreted messages between Butina and a friend to make the false claim that she was trying to trade sex for a job. [...]
"It took me approximately five minutes to read those emails and tell that they were jokes," Chutkan said. "It was apparent on its face."
Chutkan said she was "concerned" that officials at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Washington, D.C., and the Justice Department would read the exchanges and somehow find otherwise.
...accused Russian agent Maria Butina, headline.
An attorney for Maria Butina -- the accused Russian agent who was sentenced to 18 months in prison earlier this year..., first sentence.
Russian foreign agent Maria Butina
Russian agent Maria Butina, U.S. prosecutors ask judge for her deportation, headline.
Accused Russian spy Maria Butina, headline; similar in first sentence.
Russian Agent Maria Butina, headline.
Maria Butina, Russian agent who conspired to infiltrate NRA, headline.
Described by some as a Russian “spy,” Butina, 30, was actually a master networker -- a woman who used her purported interest in gun rights to facilitate meetings with NRA officials and prominent figures in the Republican party.
US prosecutors routinely overcharge and leak to the press to pollute the jury pool and to pre-try cases in the court of public opinion. Their allegations are not reliable sources of fact. State prosecutors Nifong and Corey were unreliable sources in the Duke Lacrosse case and Zimmermann case respectively; federal prosecutor Howen was an unreliable source in the Ruby Ridge case. The list unfortunately is long.
The PR guy for Butina's gun rights group paid her car insurance for her when she was broke. The txt msgs were:
The US judge was not amused to find out that these txts were what prosecutors used to tell the court:
This txt exchange supports painting Maria Butina as an actual Red Sparrow (as WP:RS NBC News implied)? -- Naaman Brown ( talk) 11:06, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Two editors have removed the fact that Butina is a gun-rights activist who founded "Right to Bear Arms." Their rationale is that this was supposedly a "cover story" used to "infiltrate" the NRA. I have to seriously question how familiar these people are with Butina's case, because this shows a very basic misunderstanding of what she was accused of. Butina was not a covert agent. She had no "cover." The accusation was that she was lobbying - very publicly - without properly registering. She didn't "infiltrate" the NRA. Making up stories about infiltration and cover stories and writing them into edit summaries is a very serious BLP violation. - Thucydides411 ( talk) 15:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
conspiracy to act as an unregistered agent for Russia. [13] She
tried to infiltrate US conservative groups and the National Rifle Association to promote Russian political interests around the 2016 election.[14] She
has admitted to working as a Russian agent to infiltrate an influential gun rights group[15] and to
conspiring with a senior Russian official to infiltrate conservative American political circles by acting as an undeclared agent for the Kremlin. [16] This is what the sources say; saying that there is no indication that she was working on behalf of the Russian government seems a bit weird. If you're unhappy with that and somehow think using these sources is a WP:BLP violation, take it to WP:BLPN. -- Aquillion ( talk) 05:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
infiltrate, as I demonstrated above. We have to go with what they say. Also, more recent sources (after her confession) generally describe her as some variation on "(accused) Russian agent" or "(accused) spy", often without the "accused" - simply stating it as fact. -- Aquillion ( talk) 04:47, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
30-year-old spy Maria Butina will be sentenced in April for conspiring to infiltrate the NRA on behalf of Russia, headline;
Maria Butina, who has admitted to working as a Russian agent to infiltrate an influential gun rights group and make inroads with US conservative activists and Republicans, body.
Maria Butina: 'covert Russian agent' will plead guilty over effort to infiltrate NRA
Maria Butina sentenced to 18 months for trying to infiltrate US right and NRA
Maria Butina, Russian who conspired to infiltrate NRA, to be sentenced April 26
X1\ ( talk) 23:18, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
"She grew up in the Siberian taiga—large boreal forests—where her father introduced her to guns and taught her to hunt.[12] Butina said: "It is a rare Siberian who can imagine himself without a rifle in the home."[21]"
It appears B. grew up in a city of more than 600,000 people, surrounded by "steppe," not forest. Note 12 merely asserts that her father "taught her to shoot," not hunt. The cited material doesn't describe the scene of her childhood as "forest."
Note 21 may be accurate but it appears to be hyperbole. Reasonable sources suggest Russia gun ownership at 6.5% of population, vs. 37% U.S.
2601:405:4A80:9E50:A5E8:57B6:C1E5:657A ( talk) 12:34, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFLKm4Q78sg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:2A08:EA00:5D4E:B866:F6BD:A6A8 ( talk) 19:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
To add to this article: in which city of Russia she is based. The timeline states that she was deported to Moscow in 2019, but I don't think she lives in Moscow. If she lives in Barnaul, the article should state this.
173.88.246.138 ( talk) 23:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Why is Donald Trump mentioned in this article since there is absolutely no connection between this woman and Donald Trump? 2601:44:0:E660:5147:E25E:9CAF:DCBC ( talk) 13:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)