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Recent editors have inserted negative claims about Theissen, some blatantly false, using Media Matters For America as sources. But Wikipedia requires controversial claims about living people to have high-quality Reliable Sources, and MMFA is not reliable. It is not a fact-checked news source; it is a partisan propaganda outlet.
I have removed all these claims. Do not restore them. It may be possible to find acceptable criticisms of Thiessen which do not rely on MMFA, but nothing from MMFA is acceptable in this article, ever. Best wishes, CWC 16:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The Theissen/Amanpour clash caused a stir on conservative blogs, with the YouTube videos linked on Thiessen's web site racking up over 100,000 views. But AFAIK all the YouTube videos of the clash are copyright violations, and Wikipedia is very strict about citing or linking to copyright violations.
Is there a CNN video of that show, or better yet a transcript, that we could cite?
Failing that, are there any reports of the interview in Reliable news sources? (I tried Google News, but all I found was this.) Best wishes, CWC 16:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
We should probably recount the main points Thiessen makes in his book. Here's an initial list, based mostly on interviews I've seen.
More work needed here. Cheers, CWC 16:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't mean to get into an edit war, but inclusion of a ref to a Sullivan blog because he is a "widely respected professional journalist of long-standing". This is in direct contradiction with this particular WP policy. User:Gamaliel keeps restoring this ref. Here is my understanding: even though The Atlantic is a RS, whatever Sullivan publishes there is a RS, his blog is not since it is not "subject to the newspaper's full editorial control" (see policy). Somebody please remove or change this ref - I don't want to violate WP:3RR. Mhym ( talk) 05:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
(ec, outdent) Gamaliel, read what I actually wrote, not what you would like to think I wrote. Sullivan is no longer respected by anyone with any clue because of the Trig trutherism. That's what took him from "respected journalist who gets shrill about 'torture'" to "pitiful obsessive". Sullivan was a highly-respected journalist ... not any more. The Atlantic publishes articles by Sullivan a few times a year (IIRC); they only host his blog. Sullivan has been vehemently criticizing the Bush administration for (what he regards as) "torture" since 2004 with increasingly overstated rhetoric and decreasing credibility, so we know he will write with deep, heartfelt hostility towards Thiessen. These are easily-checked facts, not opinions. Therefore Sullivan is not a RS in this article, and citing him in this article is a BLP violation. Do not violate BLP again, please. Cheers, CWC 18:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
No Goethean, that is not my argument. Straw man, much? And Gamaliel, that is not my opinion; Sullivan has destroyed his own reputation as a journalist (while establishing himself as a leading "anti-torture" polemicist). His Senior Editor position at The Atlantic is part-time; he and his ghostbloggers spend much more time writing the Daily Dish, which is not fact-checked. If you want to imagine that Sullivan is still as respected as he once was, feel free ... but keep your opinions out of Wikipedia. Cheers, CWC 01:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
What's with the weird invective tone?-- Happysomeone ( talk) 01:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
"facile theory of contagion,""The DD is self-published and hostile". Both of these observations are your opinion and demonstrably false. Further, The Atlantic's blogs are not an equal to a WordPress analog. Maintaining your position that controversial claims may not be permitted because of your interpretation of WP:BLP is a logical fallacy.-- Happysomeone ( talk) 22:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
(Outdent) By self-published blog I meant a blog that is not subject to [a news organization]'s full editorial control. Sorry for being too terse. (Normally I'm too verbose.) Now that the evidence is clear that the DD is not subject to any editorial control (see below), it should also be clear that tDD is not one of the rare blogs that can be used in a third-party BLP, which has been my main point here all along. (Furthermore, I've just discovered that Thiessen attacks "specious and shameful" claims from Sullivan in his book.) Cheers, CWC 13:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I removed much of the explanation what happened. If you have RS which describe somehow the relevance of this interview (in which mostly Stewart spoke) to Thiessen's bio, please post them here on the discussion page. Otherwise, I see this as nothing but violation of WP:RECENTISM. Mhym ( talk) 19:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
(starting anew) There is really not much to debate, as we are on separate sides of this old debate. When in doubt about recent events, I almost always vote for deletion, since recentism skews up a general understanding what's notable. In fact, given that the article is in its stub stage (I started it like two weeks ago), one has to be very careful about WP:DUE, which are hard to evaluate. So again, when in doubt about recent events, I make sure Google News has hundreds of hits on the event in question. You seem to believe that one (in my view still questionable) RS is good enough for inclusion, and the history will resolve whether this is notable. So you are inclusionist. I will wait for (dozen of) other sources, as I want WP to be more than poorly sorted archive of data. Take a long view and think about the WP reader 10 years from now will read the article. How exactly what a comedian said to Thiessen is relevant to Thiessen's bio article, the section about his book? This could potentially fit a "controversy" section (compare with Avigdor Lieberman), but how exactly this is a controversy if only one person found it to be so and mentioned in a blog among 100 other items on the same day? IMO, this is not even a closed call. Mhym ( talk) 01:31, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
P.S. You might want to read the first two sentences of this: [2]. I think the case for non-RS of Sullivan's blog (and Goldberg's blog for that matter) is pretty clear. Mhym ( talk) 07:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Here's another critical review of Thiessen's book. They appear to be trickling in, but the sources of the commentary IMHO remain notable.-- Happysomeone ( talk) 18:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
User:Chris Chittleborough have gone back and forth a bit on how to treat Jane Meyer's review of Thiessen. I recently reverted [3], putting back this phrase (in italics here) abuot Meyers claiming the book got the facts about Heathrow plot wrong and [...] His edit summary explains the reason for removing it: rm Mayer's claim Theissen "got the facts about Heathrow plot wrong" -- we need to report T's (strong) defense or omit M's claim, latter is easier). I don't think that's a good enough reason. I'll need to check back with Thiessen's response (I assume it's the one in "National Review Online" that we already link to). I don't recall that he specifically responded to that, but if so, I'll add the response (within 30 hours). The Mayer review was widely noticed and it's worth some more space in this article (it may be the most prominent criticism Thiessen has ever received). Both of us agree that it's better to have both the criticism and response in the article. -- JohnWBarber ( talk) 20:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Like I said in my edit comment, dropping those words was easier than summarizing Thiessen's response on that issue ... and I was feeling lazy just then. But JohnWBarber is right (again!): the Mayer-Thiessen dispute does deserve fuller treatment. In his NRO article, Thiessen summarizes what he wrote in his book about information gained indirectly from KSM helping "British authorities" spot a terrorist plot, then gives us the following paragraph:
Here's my initial attempt to write this up:
[CD] | Courting Disaster, chapter 2 |
[JM] |
Mayer, Jane (March 29, 2010).
"A curious history of the C.I.A."
The New Yorker. {{
cite web}} : Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (
help)
|
[MT] | Thiessen, Marc, "Jane Mayer’s Disaster", National Review Online, April 14, 2010, retrieved April 20, 2010 |
[MH] |
Hayden, Michael (February 15, 2010).
"Former CIA Director Hayden: Thiessen's 'Courting Disaster' a must-read". Book Review.
The Daily Caller. Retrieved April 20, 2010. {{
cite web}} : Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (
help)
|
This is just a rough draft. I tried to err on the side of putting in too much detail, so we can look for stuff to take out. Shorter wording would be better for article balance, and more readable besides. Can someone find a way to not mention MI6 and MI5 twice each? All suggestions, comments and rewrites gratefully received ... cheers, CWC 13:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I think it would be worth to include some facts related to Wikileaks like... Marc is using his position as columnist in The Washington Post to attack the Wikileaks organization and influence the USA government about it. For example, suggesting to censure their website. -- PabloCastellano ( talk) 23:04, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is written like an advertisement. This must be corrected. -- Grandscribe ( talk) 08:15, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
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Dear fellow editors, I'm trying to add in some criticism of Thiessen that appeared in major newspapers across America including but not limited to: The Denver Post, The Greensboro Gazette, Bangor Daily News, the Omaha Tribune, the Miami Herald, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the State Journal Record, etc. This was the entry I put in:
After writing a 2017 Washington Post column that attacked the John Birch Society using false information and then refusing to issue a full correction, Thiessen was criticized for dishonesty and ties to white supremacists by members and Jewish leaders of the Society in letters and op-eds published in almost a dozen major newspapers across the country. [1] [2] [3] [4]
References
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Would really appreciate some help from other editors to make sure this cannot in any way be interpreted as defamatory under Wikipedia rules, but I think it's very important to mention this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimSmith12345 ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Why are the photos primarily of other people, the photos don't even show his face clearly. It is like the page is trying to inflate his importance by showing Marc near important people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.48.114.224 ( talk) 02:47, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
If he was not confirmed by the Senate, he was not a political appointee. And, even if he was, he should be listed as a former political appointee. 204.111.130.97 ( talk) 23:03, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Mark, No sure you are correct about the first Miss America in State of America. The first person to hold the title is my good friend and classmate Leslie Griffith from Bartlett High School in Anchorage, Alaska in fall 1977. You have some people who still read papers a little miffed. I am so happy for the young lady. 2600:387:F:481B:0:0:0:6 ( talk) 06:47, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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|
Recent editors have inserted negative claims about Theissen, some blatantly false, using Media Matters For America as sources. But Wikipedia requires controversial claims about living people to have high-quality Reliable Sources, and MMFA is not reliable. It is not a fact-checked news source; it is a partisan propaganda outlet.
I have removed all these claims. Do not restore them. It may be possible to find acceptable criticisms of Thiessen which do not rely on MMFA, but nothing from MMFA is acceptable in this article, ever. Best wishes, CWC 16:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The Theissen/Amanpour clash caused a stir on conservative blogs, with the YouTube videos linked on Thiessen's web site racking up over 100,000 views. But AFAIK all the YouTube videos of the clash are copyright violations, and Wikipedia is very strict about citing or linking to copyright violations.
Is there a CNN video of that show, or better yet a transcript, that we could cite?
Failing that, are there any reports of the interview in Reliable news sources? (I tried Google News, but all I found was this.) Best wishes, CWC 16:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
We should probably recount the main points Thiessen makes in his book. Here's an initial list, based mostly on interviews I've seen.
More work needed here. Cheers, CWC 16:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't mean to get into an edit war, but inclusion of a ref to a Sullivan blog because he is a "widely respected professional journalist of long-standing". This is in direct contradiction with this particular WP policy. User:Gamaliel keeps restoring this ref. Here is my understanding: even though The Atlantic is a RS, whatever Sullivan publishes there is a RS, his blog is not since it is not "subject to the newspaper's full editorial control" (see policy). Somebody please remove or change this ref - I don't want to violate WP:3RR. Mhym ( talk) 05:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
(ec, outdent) Gamaliel, read what I actually wrote, not what you would like to think I wrote. Sullivan is no longer respected by anyone with any clue because of the Trig trutherism. That's what took him from "respected journalist who gets shrill about 'torture'" to "pitiful obsessive". Sullivan was a highly-respected journalist ... not any more. The Atlantic publishes articles by Sullivan a few times a year (IIRC); they only host his blog. Sullivan has been vehemently criticizing the Bush administration for (what he regards as) "torture" since 2004 with increasingly overstated rhetoric and decreasing credibility, so we know he will write with deep, heartfelt hostility towards Thiessen. These are easily-checked facts, not opinions. Therefore Sullivan is not a RS in this article, and citing him in this article is a BLP violation. Do not violate BLP again, please. Cheers, CWC 18:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
No Goethean, that is not my argument. Straw man, much? And Gamaliel, that is not my opinion; Sullivan has destroyed his own reputation as a journalist (while establishing himself as a leading "anti-torture" polemicist). His Senior Editor position at The Atlantic is part-time; he and his ghostbloggers spend much more time writing the Daily Dish, which is not fact-checked. If you want to imagine that Sullivan is still as respected as he once was, feel free ... but keep your opinions out of Wikipedia. Cheers, CWC 01:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
What's with the weird invective tone?-- Happysomeone ( talk) 01:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
"facile theory of contagion,""The DD is self-published and hostile". Both of these observations are your opinion and demonstrably false. Further, The Atlantic's blogs are not an equal to a WordPress analog. Maintaining your position that controversial claims may not be permitted because of your interpretation of WP:BLP is a logical fallacy.-- Happysomeone ( talk) 22:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
(Outdent) By self-published blog I meant a blog that is not subject to [a news organization]'s full editorial control. Sorry for being too terse. (Normally I'm too verbose.) Now that the evidence is clear that the DD is not subject to any editorial control (see below), it should also be clear that tDD is not one of the rare blogs that can be used in a third-party BLP, which has been my main point here all along. (Furthermore, I've just discovered that Thiessen attacks "specious and shameful" claims from Sullivan in his book.) Cheers, CWC 13:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I removed much of the explanation what happened. If you have RS which describe somehow the relevance of this interview (in which mostly Stewart spoke) to Thiessen's bio, please post them here on the discussion page. Otherwise, I see this as nothing but violation of WP:RECENTISM. Mhym ( talk) 19:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
(starting anew) There is really not much to debate, as we are on separate sides of this old debate. When in doubt about recent events, I almost always vote for deletion, since recentism skews up a general understanding what's notable. In fact, given that the article is in its stub stage (I started it like two weeks ago), one has to be very careful about WP:DUE, which are hard to evaluate. So again, when in doubt about recent events, I make sure Google News has hundreds of hits on the event in question. You seem to believe that one (in my view still questionable) RS is good enough for inclusion, and the history will resolve whether this is notable. So you are inclusionist. I will wait for (dozen of) other sources, as I want WP to be more than poorly sorted archive of data. Take a long view and think about the WP reader 10 years from now will read the article. How exactly what a comedian said to Thiessen is relevant to Thiessen's bio article, the section about his book? This could potentially fit a "controversy" section (compare with Avigdor Lieberman), but how exactly this is a controversy if only one person found it to be so and mentioned in a blog among 100 other items on the same day? IMO, this is not even a closed call. Mhym ( talk) 01:31, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
P.S. You might want to read the first two sentences of this: [2]. I think the case for non-RS of Sullivan's blog (and Goldberg's blog for that matter) is pretty clear. Mhym ( talk) 07:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Here's another critical review of Thiessen's book. They appear to be trickling in, but the sources of the commentary IMHO remain notable.-- Happysomeone ( talk) 18:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
User:Chris Chittleborough have gone back and forth a bit on how to treat Jane Meyer's review of Thiessen. I recently reverted [3], putting back this phrase (in italics here) abuot Meyers claiming the book got the facts about Heathrow plot wrong and [...] His edit summary explains the reason for removing it: rm Mayer's claim Theissen "got the facts about Heathrow plot wrong" -- we need to report T's (strong) defense or omit M's claim, latter is easier). I don't think that's a good enough reason. I'll need to check back with Thiessen's response (I assume it's the one in "National Review Online" that we already link to). I don't recall that he specifically responded to that, but if so, I'll add the response (within 30 hours). The Mayer review was widely noticed and it's worth some more space in this article (it may be the most prominent criticism Thiessen has ever received). Both of us agree that it's better to have both the criticism and response in the article. -- JohnWBarber ( talk) 20:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Like I said in my edit comment, dropping those words was easier than summarizing Thiessen's response on that issue ... and I was feeling lazy just then. But JohnWBarber is right (again!): the Mayer-Thiessen dispute does deserve fuller treatment. In his NRO article, Thiessen summarizes what he wrote in his book about information gained indirectly from KSM helping "British authorities" spot a terrorist plot, then gives us the following paragraph:
Here's my initial attempt to write this up:
[CD] | Courting Disaster, chapter 2 |
[JM] |
Mayer, Jane (March 29, 2010).
"A curious history of the C.I.A."
The New Yorker. {{
cite web}} : Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (
help)
|
[MT] | Thiessen, Marc, "Jane Mayer’s Disaster", National Review Online, April 14, 2010, retrieved April 20, 2010 |
[MH] |
Hayden, Michael (February 15, 2010).
"Former CIA Director Hayden: Thiessen's 'Courting Disaster' a must-read". Book Review.
The Daily Caller. Retrieved April 20, 2010. {{
cite web}} : Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (
help)
|
This is just a rough draft. I tried to err on the side of putting in too much detail, so we can look for stuff to take out. Shorter wording would be better for article balance, and more readable besides. Can someone find a way to not mention MI6 and MI5 twice each? All suggestions, comments and rewrites gratefully received ... cheers, CWC 13:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I think it would be worth to include some facts related to Wikileaks like... Marc is using his position as columnist in The Washington Post to attack the Wikileaks organization and influence the USA government about it. For example, suggesting to censure their website. -- PabloCastellano ( talk) 23:04, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is written like an advertisement. This must be corrected. -- Grandscribe ( talk) 08:15, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
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Dear fellow editors, I'm trying to add in some criticism of Thiessen that appeared in major newspapers across America including but not limited to: The Denver Post, The Greensboro Gazette, Bangor Daily News, the Omaha Tribune, the Miami Herald, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the State Journal Record, etc. This was the entry I put in:
After writing a 2017 Washington Post column that attacked the John Birch Society using false information and then refusing to issue a full correction, Thiessen was criticized for dishonesty and ties to white supremacists by members and Jewish leaders of the Society in letters and op-eds published in almost a dozen major newspapers across the country. [1] [2] [3] [4]
References
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help)
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help)
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cite news}}
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help)
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help)
Would really appreciate some help from other editors to make sure this cannot in any way be interpreted as defamatory under Wikipedia rules, but I think it's very important to mention this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimSmith12345 ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Why are the photos primarily of other people, the photos don't even show his face clearly. It is like the page is trying to inflate his importance by showing Marc near important people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.48.114.224 ( talk) 02:47, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
If he was not confirmed by the Senate, he was not a political appointee. And, even if he was, he should be listed as a former political appointee. 204.111.130.97 ( talk) 23:03, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Mark, No sure you are correct about the first Miss America in State of America. The first person to hold the title is my good friend and classmate Leslie Griffith from Bartlett High School in Anchorage, Alaska in fall 1977. You have some people who still read papers a little miffed. I am so happy for the young lady. 2600:387:F:481B:0:0:0:6 ( talk) 06:47, 23 December 2021 (UTC)