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The actual apparently definition we have on there now is:
"Manhattanization was a pejorative word used by critics of the highrise buildings going up in San Francisco, California during the 1960s and 1970s, who were concerned the skyscrapers would block views of the surrounding hills. The term "Manhattanization" has been applied to Miami, Florida and Las Vegas, Nevada recently, in an economic light."
The rest of the article seems to suggest that the term means any sort of urban development with high rises does this really need its own entry?-- Loodog 22:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The word isn't even defined in this article:
"Manhattanization was a pejorative word used by critics of the highrise buildings going up in San Francisco, California during the 1960s and 1970s, who were concerned the skyscrapers would block views of the surrounding hills. The term "Manhattanization" has been applied to Miami, Florida recently, in an economic light."
All that I've learned is: manhattanization is a word. This is like if I were to say "existentialism is a word used by 19th-century philosophers." Not exactly useful. Could we get a DEFINITION, here?-- Loodog 04:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
tr.v. Man·hat·tan·ized, Man·hat·tan·iz·ing, Man·hat·tan·iz·es To transform the appearance and character of (a city) by constructing tall and densely situated buildings.
Man·hat'tan·i·za'tion (-ĭ-zā'shən) n. - Marc Averette 13:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
That's a poor definition. The word is often applied where the buildings are not dense, or to density without super-tall buildings. And it is not clearly a legitimate concept to describe a real transformation. The usage is generally by people with an agenda to oppose new construction; to report the definition they coin as describing a real phenomenon ends up creating POV problems. I'm going with a broader definition. Wikidemo 07:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The photo of "Biscayne" doesn't make it clear where it is. There is no link. To a non-american Biscayne is not an internationaly known name, where is it? -- Brideshead 09:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be about the international phenomenon of Manhattanization. Do we need three Miami pictures to demonstrate this? We don't think Dubai needs at least one pic when Miami has three.-- Loodog 00:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I have already edited the article to describe Manhattanization as a term used used by people opposed to booms in construction of high-rise buildings to describe what they perceive as an undesirable tranformation in a city, as opposed to a specific, universally recognized phenomenon. It is clearly not. Calling a construction boom a "Manhattanization" is American-centric, it implies that there is something going on other than a construction boom (if not, why coin a new neologism for something we already have a term for?), and it is controversial.
Cities the world over are undergoing construction booms, and have done so from time to time. Wikipedia is not about creating lists of cities or presenting summaries of statistics from other sites. Much of this article is simply a regurgitation of facts from emporis.com about random cities, without any attempt to explain why those cities matter to the concept of Manhattanization. I seriously doubt residents of Hong Kong, Tokyo, or Dubai oppose, or even conceive of, their current building booms as "Manhattanization." Even within the United States, there is inevitable opposition to change, and nearly every construction project is opposed by at least somebody who calls it a sign of Manhattanization. A partizan characterization of a thing does not deserve a wikipedia article, although if notable, the partizanship itself may merit an article (such as an article on anti-growth movements).
I therefore propose that unless someone comes up with verifiable, substantial references to a "Manhattanization" process going on in Dubai, Tokyo, Panama City, etc., we delete these cities from the list. The information is more appropriately put (and probably is already) in the individual articles for these cities. Wikidemo 08:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
google search Miami Manhattanization.
I can find only the unscholarly usemenow.com posting that is cited here, oodles of references to the article Wikipedia put up, and answers.com (but wait! they get their articles from us (WP)), but I'll be damned if I can find one reliable source that calls Miami's development Manhattanization.
What we're doing right now is writing an article about what we think a term that doesn't exist (until we invented it) means. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I really want to try to get this thing deleted again since it's somebody's op-ed piece. The sources this article stands on are tenuous at best.-- Loodog 02:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
First, to whomever keeps reverting the article back to its old state where it mentions Dubai, Las Vegas, and Panama City, please do not engage in a Wikipedia:Edit war. We are getting contentious reverts from anonymous users who are apparently skyscraper lovers who want to talk about Miami. They make no justification other than an unsubstantiated claim that they are reverting vandalism, which is clearly not the case. I and other established Wikipedians who have changed the article have stated and backed up valid reasons for making the changes. However much you may disagree with the outcome, reasoned edits are not vandalism.
To summarize some of the reasons:
1. Manhattanization is an American-centric term, used almost exclusively for political purposes by opponents of development, that is inappropriate to apply to non-American cities that have their own reasons, history, and politics surrounding growth. 2. Even where used approvingly (if ever), it is a neologism of no analytic validity. There is no argument that using this loaded term adds anything to the statement that a city is undergrowing rapid growth. There is no connection to Manhattan or its unique history that would differentiate one city's growth as being more Manhattan-like than another, only a reference to growth. There is no source to suggest that serious academic, scholarly, or journalistic accounts use the language. It is not used within the field of knowledge. At best it is used politically, informally, and in fluff pieces. Hence it is unencyclopedic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a catalog of neologisms. 3. There are no sources at all for Panama City, Dubai, or Las Vegas, and hence I have removed them outright. 4. Informal opinion language such as Miami being a "prime example of Manhattanization" assumes an acceptance of something without sourcing it. 5. The "Biscayne Wall" is more of a neologism than Manhattanization, existing mainly in Wikipedia and a few blogs. I've removed the reference.
I think we should provisionally keep the article, because Neologisms in widespread use may be valid subjects for Wikipedia. However, the notability of the term is not that cities grow -- there are articles on that. It is that "Manhattanization" is, like gentrification, a political term. Explaining the origin and usage of the term helps explain the anti-growth movement. A lay reader who encounters the word and looks it up on Wikipedia will by learning a little more about the politics behind development reach a better understanding of the whole issue of urban planning. However, we should: (1) Keep out references to any city unless there are reliable sources that the term is regularly applied to that city; (2) Avoid coverage that there is an actual phenomenon of Manhattanization and that it is or is not occurring in any given place, only that it has become an issue in a particular city; (3) Avoid using this article as a mere catalog of which cities are growing and where skyscrapers are being built; (4) Not talk about Manhattan being Manhattanized; that's silly, and there are plenty of other places on Wikipedia where Manhattan's growth is discussed; and (5) Remove mention of Miami shortly unless someone finds a reliable source that the term is seriously applied to Miami -- the present citation has no more than the word Manhattanization in the headline without any discussion of the term. Under the guideline on neologisms that is clearly not a reliable source. Blogs, editorials, and chatty newspaper articles that cover growth (as opposed to covering the term) don't count either.
Please indicate whether you agree or disagree with the proposals and why, or make your own proposal, so we can reach a consensus on what to do about this article. Meanwhile, do not undo the edits just because you disagree with them. Wikipedia is about consensus. If we can't agree we'll ask for moderation or arbitration -- if we can't create a clean useful article here I'll ask that it be deleted entirely. Wikidemo 23:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the repeated addition of material concerning Miami's recent construction news, this article is about the term "Manhattanization", not Miami's real estate developments. If you disagree that such additions are inappropriate and irrelevant to the article, please discuss here before readding.-- Louiedog ( talk) 18:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
There's a second meaning to this term not mentioned in the article which refers to Manhattan's seemingly greater connections to the rest of the world than the rest of the USA - the term is used to describe similar processes in cities such as London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Incka ( talk • contribs) 23:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Please note that I added the gallery not just to spam the page with pretty pictures but to manually increase the size, namely the length, of the page to help straighten it out due to the large pictures but short text, a problem which pushes some pages way out of shape in widescreen. B137 ( talk) 08:28, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
The last city remaining in the hidden text after I've chipped them away is panama city. Just for a mention without going into details a strong source is not necessary. But I hope to find one since their boom seems to have aligned with Miami and the strong economy of the mid oughts. panama advisory international group, an authored blog with name given B137 ( talk) 19:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 28 March 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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The actual apparently definition we have on there now is:
"Manhattanization was a pejorative word used by critics of the highrise buildings going up in San Francisco, California during the 1960s and 1970s, who were concerned the skyscrapers would block views of the surrounding hills. The term "Manhattanization" has been applied to Miami, Florida and Las Vegas, Nevada recently, in an economic light."
The rest of the article seems to suggest that the term means any sort of urban development with high rises does this really need its own entry?-- Loodog 22:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The word isn't even defined in this article:
"Manhattanization was a pejorative word used by critics of the highrise buildings going up in San Francisco, California during the 1960s and 1970s, who were concerned the skyscrapers would block views of the surrounding hills. The term "Manhattanization" has been applied to Miami, Florida recently, in an economic light."
All that I've learned is: manhattanization is a word. This is like if I were to say "existentialism is a word used by 19th-century philosophers." Not exactly useful. Could we get a DEFINITION, here?-- Loodog 04:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
tr.v. Man·hat·tan·ized, Man·hat·tan·iz·ing, Man·hat·tan·iz·es To transform the appearance and character of (a city) by constructing tall and densely situated buildings.
Man·hat'tan·i·za'tion (-ĭ-zā'shən) n. - Marc Averette 13:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
That's a poor definition. The word is often applied where the buildings are not dense, or to density without super-tall buildings. And it is not clearly a legitimate concept to describe a real transformation. The usage is generally by people with an agenda to oppose new construction; to report the definition they coin as describing a real phenomenon ends up creating POV problems. I'm going with a broader definition. Wikidemo 07:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The photo of "Biscayne" doesn't make it clear where it is. There is no link. To a non-american Biscayne is not an internationaly known name, where is it? -- Brideshead 09:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be about the international phenomenon of Manhattanization. Do we need three Miami pictures to demonstrate this? We don't think Dubai needs at least one pic when Miami has three.-- Loodog 00:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I have already edited the article to describe Manhattanization as a term used used by people opposed to booms in construction of high-rise buildings to describe what they perceive as an undesirable tranformation in a city, as opposed to a specific, universally recognized phenomenon. It is clearly not. Calling a construction boom a "Manhattanization" is American-centric, it implies that there is something going on other than a construction boom (if not, why coin a new neologism for something we already have a term for?), and it is controversial.
Cities the world over are undergoing construction booms, and have done so from time to time. Wikipedia is not about creating lists of cities or presenting summaries of statistics from other sites. Much of this article is simply a regurgitation of facts from emporis.com about random cities, without any attempt to explain why those cities matter to the concept of Manhattanization. I seriously doubt residents of Hong Kong, Tokyo, or Dubai oppose, or even conceive of, their current building booms as "Manhattanization." Even within the United States, there is inevitable opposition to change, and nearly every construction project is opposed by at least somebody who calls it a sign of Manhattanization. A partizan characterization of a thing does not deserve a wikipedia article, although if notable, the partizanship itself may merit an article (such as an article on anti-growth movements).
I therefore propose that unless someone comes up with verifiable, substantial references to a "Manhattanization" process going on in Dubai, Tokyo, Panama City, etc., we delete these cities from the list. The information is more appropriately put (and probably is already) in the individual articles for these cities. Wikidemo 08:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
google search Miami Manhattanization.
I can find only the unscholarly usemenow.com posting that is cited here, oodles of references to the article Wikipedia put up, and answers.com (but wait! they get their articles from us (WP)), but I'll be damned if I can find one reliable source that calls Miami's development Manhattanization.
What we're doing right now is writing an article about what we think a term that doesn't exist (until we invented it) means. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I really want to try to get this thing deleted again since it's somebody's op-ed piece. The sources this article stands on are tenuous at best.-- Loodog 02:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
First, to whomever keeps reverting the article back to its old state where it mentions Dubai, Las Vegas, and Panama City, please do not engage in a Wikipedia:Edit war. We are getting contentious reverts from anonymous users who are apparently skyscraper lovers who want to talk about Miami. They make no justification other than an unsubstantiated claim that they are reverting vandalism, which is clearly not the case. I and other established Wikipedians who have changed the article have stated and backed up valid reasons for making the changes. However much you may disagree with the outcome, reasoned edits are not vandalism.
To summarize some of the reasons:
1. Manhattanization is an American-centric term, used almost exclusively for political purposes by opponents of development, that is inappropriate to apply to non-American cities that have their own reasons, history, and politics surrounding growth. 2. Even where used approvingly (if ever), it is a neologism of no analytic validity. There is no argument that using this loaded term adds anything to the statement that a city is undergrowing rapid growth. There is no connection to Manhattan or its unique history that would differentiate one city's growth as being more Manhattan-like than another, only a reference to growth. There is no source to suggest that serious academic, scholarly, or journalistic accounts use the language. It is not used within the field of knowledge. At best it is used politically, informally, and in fluff pieces. Hence it is unencyclopedic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a catalog of neologisms. 3. There are no sources at all for Panama City, Dubai, or Las Vegas, and hence I have removed them outright. 4. Informal opinion language such as Miami being a "prime example of Manhattanization" assumes an acceptance of something without sourcing it. 5. The "Biscayne Wall" is more of a neologism than Manhattanization, existing mainly in Wikipedia and a few blogs. I've removed the reference.
I think we should provisionally keep the article, because Neologisms in widespread use may be valid subjects for Wikipedia. However, the notability of the term is not that cities grow -- there are articles on that. It is that "Manhattanization" is, like gentrification, a political term. Explaining the origin and usage of the term helps explain the anti-growth movement. A lay reader who encounters the word and looks it up on Wikipedia will by learning a little more about the politics behind development reach a better understanding of the whole issue of urban planning. However, we should: (1) Keep out references to any city unless there are reliable sources that the term is regularly applied to that city; (2) Avoid coverage that there is an actual phenomenon of Manhattanization and that it is or is not occurring in any given place, only that it has become an issue in a particular city; (3) Avoid using this article as a mere catalog of which cities are growing and where skyscrapers are being built; (4) Not talk about Manhattan being Manhattanized; that's silly, and there are plenty of other places on Wikipedia where Manhattan's growth is discussed; and (5) Remove mention of Miami shortly unless someone finds a reliable source that the term is seriously applied to Miami -- the present citation has no more than the word Manhattanization in the headline without any discussion of the term. Under the guideline on neologisms that is clearly not a reliable source. Blogs, editorials, and chatty newspaper articles that cover growth (as opposed to covering the term) don't count either.
Please indicate whether you agree or disagree with the proposals and why, or make your own proposal, so we can reach a consensus on what to do about this article. Meanwhile, do not undo the edits just because you disagree with them. Wikipedia is about consensus. If we can't agree we'll ask for moderation or arbitration -- if we can't create a clean useful article here I'll ask that it be deleted entirely. Wikidemo 23:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the repeated addition of material concerning Miami's recent construction news, this article is about the term "Manhattanization", not Miami's real estate developments. If you disagree that such additions are inappropriate and irrelevant to the article, please discuss here before readding.-- Louiedog ( talk) 18:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
There's a second meaning to this term not mentioned in the article which refers to Manhattan's seemingly greater connections to the rest of the world than the rest of the USA - the term is used to describe similar processes in cities such as London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Incka ( talk • contribs) 23:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Please note that I added the gallery not just to spam the page with pretty pictures but to manually increase the size, namely the length, of the page to help straighten it out due to the large pictures but short text, a problem which pushes some pages way out of shape in widescreen. B137 ( talk) 08:28, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
The last city remaining in the hidden text after I've chipped them away is panama city. Just for a mention without going into details a strong source is not necessary. But I hope to find one since their boom seems to have aligned with Miami and the strong economy of the mid oughts. panama advisory international group, an authored blog with name given B137 ( talk) 19:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:29, 31 May 2017 (UTC)