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Amoruso, please justify your changes.-- Doron 16:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow, now a few millennia are summed up in the (rather unreadable) intro, isn't this going a bit too far? How about restoring the old intro that only introduced the British period, how it began and how it ended (i.e., only mention the Ottoman period, mandate establishment and termination) and leave the long story to the History section?-- Doron 00:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
There's been a bit of dispute here. There's good reason for this, as much that is easily available is very confusing or impossible. I thought I might throw my 2 cents in about some things that could be added to help clarify things. First, good work, Ian. This latest version increases the accuracy and has a lot of good info. Second, I believe Amoruso's version is completely in good faith, but it contains some "well known" but untrue, indeed impossible misconceptions, along with some good points that should be here. As is here now, and as I just reclarified in the San Remo conference article, there is no question that in April or August 1920 the borders of Palestine and the other mandates were not yet really drawn. Look at the resolution and treaty of Sevres. I'll speak mainly of Jordan and Palestine. Until Samuel's arrival in June 1920 everything, Jordan and Palestine was part of OETA (Occupied Enemy Territory) (mainly) South. But Samuel was explicitly and repeatedly instructed by his superiors that his authority and the mandate only extended to the Jordan river (see Wasserstein, Israelis and Palestinians: Why Do they fight, ca. p. 100 an excellent, too short but very clear reference on this period) "in order to not prejudice the decision of the powers" ( quoted (from memory) from Leonard Stein's Balfour Declaration, footnote on next to last page, another excellent reference.).
So the original (provisional) eastern border of Palestine was the Jordan river. And all the sequel did in essence was to confirm this in a circuitous way. After Abdullah arrived in Jordan, as related in Kirkbride's memoirs that Amoruso referred to, he asked Kirkbride if he happened to know just who owned Jordan. Kirkbride candidly replied that nobody really knew. (You can see the lightbulb going on over Abdullah's head. :-) ) Something important that is missing is the March 1921 Cairo Conference (1921), see British Mandate of Iraq which occurred before Churchill visited Jerusalem ( A convenient reference is Fromkin's Peace to End all Peace.] . Britain did indeed "alter" the mandate there. The decision was made to ADD article 25 to the December 1920 (IIRC) draft of the mandate Article 25 allowed differing treatment of Jordan and Palestine under the terms of the mandate and having the JNH only in the latter. The decision was to add Jordan to the Mandate terrritory and "give" it provisionally to Abdullah. It was already "occupied by force by Abdullah and it had nothing to do with the designated mandate" as Amoruso said. .But this did not partition the mandate - which was impossible - Jordan was already controlled by Abdullah more or less, and legally Jordan was still OETA, not being under the mandate's civil administration, not part of the mandate's territory in any sense yet.
To be repetitive, the March 1921 Cairo/Jerusalem events ADDED Jordan to the British Mandate. under a then-modified Mandate document. There was no time whatsoever that Jordan was ever ruled under the full British Mandate document including the Jewish National Home provisions and the Balfour Declaration. There was no partition, just addition of a new territory under different arrangements, at a different time from the original territory. The rest of the history is relatively unproblematic.
A couple more amusing sidelights. What did the Zionists think of this? As Wasserstein relates, the Zionist Executive had no problem with this and ratified these arrangements in 1922. In particular " Jabotinsky, had as a member of the Zionist Executive, endorsed the arrangements in 1922 that explicitly prohibited Jewish settlement in Transjordan." But "most Revisionists conveniently forgot that." :-) For later, as his article here relates, "His new party demanded that the Zionist movement recognize as its objective the establishment of a Jewish state along both banks of the Jordan River." Basically he said "we wuz robbed" but forgot to mention he was one of the "robbers." This is pretty much the origin of the confusion and distortion that led to some recent disputes. Another amusing sidelight is the National Government of Moab established in Transjordan under Samuel's but not the Mandate's authority before the Cairo Conference - the references I put there, Sachar, Sykes are also worth looking at. Were another proof needed, it shows that Jordan was not considered part of the mandate then.
Anyways, hope this farrago helps someone. John Z 11:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Will you all stop edit warring already and discuss things on the talk page! *sigh*
Now the map that does not distinguish between Palestine proper and Transjordan is misleading. Transjordan was never administrated as part of Palestine and almost all official references to Palestine refer to the territory west of the Jordan River. A map that fails to make this distinction creates the false impression that Transjordan was actually part of Palestine, whereas in fact it was a separate entity. The inclusion of Transjordan is really only relevant to the short period when the Mandate was being established.-- Doron 21:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
In 1920 it was decided that there was going to be a Palestine Mandate. It was a decision about what was going to happen and did not immediately create the mandate entity with GB in charge of it. If the US decided that Puerto Rico was going to become independent, it would not be suddenly independent from that moment. Independence would only come at a declared moment after all the legal formalities had been completed, perhaps years later. The Palestine administration answered only to the British crown until 1923, as you can see from where they submitted all their reports. It did not answer to the League of Nations as a mandatory authority as there was no legal basis for that yet. Until the mandate document was approved by the League of Nations in 1922, the details of the mandate were still being negotiated, not only between GB and the League of Nations but between GB and the other powers (esp. France). One of the things decided during that negotiating period was the disposition of Transjordan, with the complete approval of the League of Nations. As illustrations that I'm not making this up, see this 1921 report. Note (1) "on July 1st, 1920, by order of His Majesty's Government a Civil Administration was established in Palestine" (i.e. not by authority of the League of Nations); (2) "the many improvements which the country needs ... have had to be postponed until the Mandate is promulgated" (i.e. there was no official mandate yet). Next see the Palestine Order in Council of August 1922 which replaced the previous British administration by a mandate administration with a completely different legal basis. Then look at this 1922 report which states "the principal event of the year 1922 has been the approval by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24th, 1922, of the British Mandate for the administration of the territory" (i.e. it was not official before that). Finally, see the 1923 report of the mandate government which is clearly labeled the "first annual report to the council of the League of Nations". Look, this whole question would be just a minor historical footnote except that some people want to make an argument that the Jews were cheated out of Transjordan (and the Golan, and the Litani River, etc etc). (Amoruso proved this point just now as I was typing by repeating the absolute falsehood that "all" of the mandate was intended for the Jews.) It's a worn-out political barrow that we should not be pushing. -- Zero talk 16:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll add: for an even better proof that the statement "it became a legal entity under the San Remo conference, and subsequently, the British began exercising their mandate, through the power of a High Commissioner, in 1920" is incorrect, I refer you to
the text of the Sanremo resolution. To quote "The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust ... the administration of Palestine ... to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers." You see, at that point of time it was not even official that the Mandatory was going to be Great Britain. (Actually there was a strong push to get the USA to take the job, but they didn't want it.) The same lack of decision over who the Mandatory would be appears in the
Sevres treaty later the same year. So, no, Great Britain did not become the Mandatory for Palestine on account of either of these 1920 decisions. That did not happen until the League of Nations decided it in 1922. --
Zero
talk
16:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
“In the Turkish Peace Treaty, drawn up by the London Conference (February 12-April 10, 1920), finalized by the San Remo Conference (April 18-26, 1920), and signed by the Turkish government at the French town of Sevres on August 10, 1920, the Mandatory for Palestine was tasked with ‘putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people’ ... . This was an outstanding success for the Zionists. “Though they failed to achieve their territorial goals owing to Britain’s compromise with France over Palestine’s northern frontier, and the effective separation of Transjordan from Palestine that followed … .”
- Ref: p.257-258, Empires of the Sand, The Struggle for Mastery in the Middle East 1789-1923. Efraim Karsh & Inari Karsh. Harvard University Press. 1999.
- Doright 06:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Image caption: there was never such an entity as the "Mandate for a Jewish National Home". That name is pure invention. Gilbert does not use it, either. The Jewish national home was to be in Palestine, not all of Palestine. The word in was deliberately chosen to avoid specifying how much of Palestine or which part of Palestine was intended; see Ingrams, Palestine Papers, for example. Note that nobody here is proposing that the image caption expresses the Arab position that the mandate was designed to deprive the Arab inhabitants of their right to self-determination in violation of the League of Nations Charter. This "debate" is between the Revisionist Zionist position and the neutral position. Those people trying to push their political positions into the figure should desist. -- Zero talk 10:19, 4 May 2007
(UTC) I looked at Gilbert's map and don't have much problem with it. He doesn't say that the whole area was ever given to the Zionists and even shows the much smaller area that the Zionists were hoping to get. Since the Jewish National Home is the topic of his map, it is reasonable for him to include information such as Jewish immigration to Transjordan. The topic of our map is different; adding the Zionist view without adding the Arab view as well would violate NPOV in our case. Gilbert's map shows an area "ceded to the French mandate" but fails to show the area that France ceded to the British mandate at the same time -- that's the main complaint I have with Gilbert's map. -- Zero talk 11:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Again, you can do all the WP:OR you want. I quite enjoy it. However, Gilbert captions it as:
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish National home."
I'm sorry you don't like it. - Doright 23:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
“His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The Balfour Declaration 2 Nov 1917”
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish National home."
"Area allocated for a Jewish National home, San Remo Conference 1920."
"The Palestine Mandate granted to Great Britain at the 1920 San Remo Conference as the region of a Jewish National Home." [ [3]]
(Resetting indent) So, it seems to me that we are in violent agreement on the following points:
On 24 April, in San Remo, it was decided to hand the mandates over Palestine and Mesopotamia to Britain without precisely defining the boundaries of the mandated territories. The officials of the Foreign Office discussed the future of the area east of the Jordan, and concluded with three possible outcomes. One proposal regarded the land as part of the independent Arab kingdom of Hijaz, ruled by Hussein, who had declared himself King of Hijaz. The second proposal regarded the area east of the Jordan as part of the territory over which Britain had just received a ruling mandate, and the third regarded it as part of the the Arab kingdom of Damascus, which was headed by Hussein's son Feisal.
The whole problem originated with Zero's Original research map where he tried to claim that the divison (making tarnsjordan a separate part of the mandate) was done in the 1920. see my original complain here: Talk:British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Problem_with_map . The truth is that the term "transjordan" came only after the UK decided to give this part of Palestine mandate to the Hasjhemite. This small detail have a clear infulance on the issue of the size alloted to the jewsih homelnd and does the western part need to be split again between Jews and Arabs. Zeq 13:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much the same map is found on the pro-Palestinian PASSIA.org site at http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html . AnonMoos 14:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
IP SockPuppet has requested this image be deleted. [ [5]]
This nomination for deletion is a violation of WP:Point and is an attempt to preempt the discussion on this talk page.
The IP editor states:
The map is self-made and is not in keeping with the best sources cited in the article in which it is used: British Mandate for Palestine.
Please note, WP:AGF does not excuse bad behavior. Clearly an editor felt it was better to try to delete the image after having lost the debate on this page.
- Doright 02:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
"The original Mandate for a Jewish National Home assigned to Britain at the San Remo Conference, 1920. "
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish Nation home"
"Area Allocated for Jewish National Home San Remo Conference" 1920.
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish Nation home,"
Michael J. Cohen, Prof. at Bar-Ilan University in The Origins and Evolution of the Arab-Zionist Conflict, 1987, p.64 writes :
Phone him :-)
Alithien
21:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
And I would add this primary source :
and this comment :
I'm sorry but since you are merely providing seemingly pointless and random quotations that at best represent some kind of unstated WP:OR synthesis, I'm going to have to limit my replies to once every two or three days. - Doright 23:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
As promised, I looked again at your above quotations and still can not determine how they refute the appropriateness of, or demonstrate that a POV is expressed by, showing Gaza and Kuneitra on the map. If you look at the WP:RS sources that I have provided for this map, you will see that they are included on their maps as well. I included them here because they are recognizable landmarks. Again, I respectfully suggest that you clearly state exactly what your objection is (rather than a rhetorical question) to the inclusion of Gaza and Kuneitra and then provide sources that support your claim. - Doright 23:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
No source is identified. It is therefore not WP:RS and can not be used in this or any other WP article. - Doright 06:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The question of exactly when the Mandate for Palestine began arose above. This being a legal question, I have located a book that is regularly cited as a standard source on the laws of the mandate system: Quincy Wright, Mandates under the League of Nations, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1930. Here are some relevant extracts.
"draft mandates adopted by the Allied and Associated Powers would not be definitive until they had been considered and approved by the League ... the legal title held by the mandatory Power must be a double one: one conferred by the Principal Powers and the other conferred by the League of Nations"
Thus three steps were necessary to put the system into effect:
(1) The Principal Allied and Associated Powers confer a mandate on one of their number or on a third power;
(2) the principal powers officially notify the council of the League of Nations that a certain power has been appointed mandatory for such a certain defined territory;
(3) the coucil of the League of Nations takes official cognisance of the appointment of the mandatory power and informs the latter that it [the council] considers it as invested with the mandate, and at the same time notifies it of the terms of the mandate, after assertaining whether they are in conformance with the provisions of the covenant.
The mandate texts or charters have been regarded by the League and the mandatories as the fundamental law for the areas.
These conclusions are justified by Wright over many pages. In summary, until the mandate was officially approved by the League of Nations it was only a draft. Incidentally, one detail given by Wright (p114) is that the July 22, 1922 decision of the Council was only a tentative approval of the Palestine and Syria mandates. It was thought important that these two mandates should begin at the same time, but there was a dispute between France and Italy over the Syria mandate. On September 29, 1923, the French and Italian delegates announced that their disupute was resolved, so both mandates were declared to be in force immediately. -- Zero talk 04:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The same opinion, that a mandate does not come into legal existence until the League of Nations says so, was given in all of the law books I could find that discuss the issue (about 6). These included: Temperley, History of the Paris Peace Conference, Vol VI, p505-506; League of Nations, The Mandates System (official publication of 1945); Hill, Mandates, Dependencies and Trusteeship, p133ff. -- Zero talk 08:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
That the Zionist Organization did not disagree with this assessment can be seen from a submission it made to the League of Nations in 1921. It refers repeatedly to the "draft Palestine Mandate" and uses the future tense. (League of Nations, Official Journal, Jul-Aug 1921, p443). -- Zero talk 08:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Two official statements from the League of Nations:
It was becoming increasingly clear to the politicians of the West that a peace treaty with Turkey was not to be concluded for some time yet, so in April 1920 the Allies decided that so far as the Arabic-speaking world was concerned they would implement the provisions of such a treaty as they envisaged. Such action was of course, highly illegal...this irregular conduct was more public spirited than otherwise. It was the only sensible thing to do...
Zero, I believe you can find the text in A Documentary History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict by Charles Geddes. I don't have immediate access but could get a copy within a few days or so. -- Ian Pitchford 11:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The Original Barnstar | ||
I realize this usually goes on User Talk pages but it is well-deserved here by a number of users. Bravo. Kaisershatner 13:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC) |
I filed a Mediation request, naming myself, Ian Pitchford, Alithien and Doright as parties. Other people who wish to be parties, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/British Mandate of Palestine and add yourself. If you want to add an extra issue for mediation, add it to the "Additional issues to mediate" section. Note that that page is only for accepting or rejecting mediation; there will be another place to post arguments if the Mediation Committee accepts the case. -- Zero talk 12:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. Could someone clarify the essence of the dispute that is being proposed for mediation? Is it the caption regarding "Jewish National Home," the specific borders on the map (Golan Heights??) or what exactly? I understand the map is being flipped back and forth, but what are the underlying issues in dispute? Kaisershatner 15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking for clarification because to me it seems like this is a question of fact. Either the Mandate was or was not called "for a Jewish National Home." Either the borders were or were not established, etc. Mediation shouldn't be required to solve such a problem. Am I missing the substance of this disagreement? Kaisershatner 18:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
There are both factual and presentation issues.
-- Zero talk 11:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
To Kaisershatner: two objections to your reasoning.
To Alithien: Between 1920 and 1924 several land tranfers between the British and French spheres took place. The western edge of the Golan was one of them but not the only one. According to excellent sources I found (which I will post here after I study them some more), the total effect was that the area of Palestine increased. -- Zero talk 10:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I have in mind a pair of maps, one for pre-1921 and one for post-1921, that shows when each border was determined. -- Zero talk 10:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
A series of maps showing the evolving status of the borders would be best. It's clear from the discussion above that even the simple point that the Mandate was not partitioned is not being assimilated by the quite knowledgeable contributors to this discussion. Transjordan was added to the Mandate in 1921. Until then it had been part of Occupied Enemy Territories East under the command of Faisal's chief of staff General Ali Riza el-Riqqabi and then part of Arab Syria. The opportunity to add Transjordan to the mandated territories only arose with the expulsion of Faisal from Syria and the disintegration of his authority in the rest of Arab Syria. As Bernard Wasserstein writes:
In a telegram to the Foreign Office summarizing the conclusions of the [San Remo] conference, the Foreign Secretary, Lord Curzon, stated: 'The boundaries will not be defined in Peace Treaty but are to be determined at a later date by principal Allied Powers.' When Samuel set up the civil mandatory government in mid-1920 he was explicitly instructed by Curzon that his jurisdiction did not include Transjordan. Following the French occupation in Damascus in July 1920, the French, acting in accordance with their wartime agreements with Britain refrained from extending their rule south into Transjordan. That autumn Emir Faisal's brother, Abdullah, led a band of armed men north from the Hedjaz into Transjordan and threatened to attack Syria and vindicate the Hashemites' right to overlordship there. Samuel seized the opportunity to press the case for British control. He succeeded. In March 1921 the Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill, visited the Middle East and endorsed an arrangement whereby Transjordan would be added to the Palestine mandate, with Abdullah as the emir under the authority of the High Commissioner, and with the condition that the Jewish National Home provisions of the Palestine mandate would not apply there. Palestine, therefore, was not partitioned in 1921-1922. Transjordan was not excised but, on the contrary, added to the mandatory area. Zionism was barred from seeking to expand there - but the Balfour Declaration had never previously applied to the area east of the Jordan. Why is this important? Because the myth of Palestine's 'first partition' has become part of the concept of 'Greater Israel' and of the ideology of Jabotinsky's Revisionist movement. (Wasserstein, Bernard (2004). Israel and Palestine: Why They Fight and Can They Stop?, pp. 105-106.)
Could that be clearer? -- Ian Pitchford 17:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I just got a copy of a very detailed paper on this subject: Y. Gil-Har, "The Separation of Trans-Jordan from Palestine", The Jerusalem Cathedra, vol. 1, 1981, pp284-313 (translated from the Hebrew journal Cathedra). Gil-Har agrees very well with Wasserstein's summary quoted above. One extra item I found interesting: at the time of the San Remo conference, some of the politicians thought Transjordan was going to be part of the French mandate for Syria. -- Zero talk 14:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
It is well known and documented that TransJordan was given to the Hashemites by Churchill in 'thanks' for their siding with the alies. They were landless as they were kicked out of Arabia for their treason! Giving away 78% of the Mandate was an illegal act. The new Hashemtite 'Kingdom' was also to be Jew free. 36,000 Jews were expelled and their property confiscated. ...[Fivish UK 21.1.2008]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.226.205 ( talk) 14:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Alithien above correctly questioned the name of Transjordan at its independence in 1946. It was "The Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan". Amongst other proofs, see the name under which they applied for membership of the UN [16]. I also have a translation of the 1946 constitution, which says "(The?) Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan" (I guess the choice between "Transjordan" and "Trans-Jordan" was made by the translator and doesn't reflect a distinction in the Arabic, but it would be nice if someone can confirm that). The name "Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" is frequent in the UN documents for about Apr-Oct 1949, then "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" starts in Nov 1949. It is clear that the usual story that the "Trans" was only dropped when the West Bank was annexed in 1950 is not correct. -- Zero talk 04:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
More historical trivia. Palestine Post report of Jan 25, 1949: "The Trans-Jordan Government has decided to alter the name of the country to the "Jordania Hashemite Kingdom". And if that's not confusing enough, the Palestine Post of Mar 3, 1949 reports that the name had been changed to "El Mamlaka el Hashemiah el Urdun (Jordan Hashemite Kingdom)" on the coronation of King Abdullah (25 May 1946) and that in 1949 there was an argument in the Arab League about Jordan's correct position in the alphabetical list of members. The PP of Apr 4, 1949 refers to "what is newly termed the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" (this is the name used on the armistice agreement with Israel). On May 6, 1949, PP reported: "Letters in English to the Trans-Jordan Government not addressed to 'The Hashemite Kingdom of the Jordan' will be ignored, the Prime Minister has announced, according to 'El Urdun'". I suspect that "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" and "Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" are just different ways to translate the same Arabic name, and that the name didn't really change after the "trans" was dropped in Jan 1949. -- Zero talk 05:29, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I found this in google books :
If I understand well he claims the name was changed between these elections and the annexion...
Alithien
20:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
On this website, that seems to be an official Jordanian website, they claim the name of "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" was officially chosen on May 25, 1946. They also give the date at which the election described by Milton Edwards : April 11, 1950
[17].
On wikipedia,
[18] an editor has written that the name changed from Trans-Jordan to Jordan in March 1949 and that in 1946, it is the Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan that was founded... (no precise source is given but this book : Harding, G. Lankester. 1959. The Antiquities of Jordan. Lutterworth Press, London. 2nd impression, 1960.)
The map is still wrong. it is Original by one of the participants here. we need a map from a real source. In any case this is an important source on the issue and on other such subjects such as rightofreturn. Zeq 12:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Gabi S., what's the problem exactly? I click on the link and get a map. What do yo mean by "link doesn't exist"?-- Doron 11:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The correct name of this article should be British Mandate FOR Palestine, not "of" Palestine. -- Gilabrand 13:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The title page of the document drawn up at the conference calls it "Mandate FOR Palestine." The text reads: Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine..." -- Gilabrand 14:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The defaced red ensign was never the OFFICIAL flag of the mandate, the Union Flag was. The red ensign was only used on merchant ships registered in the mandate. There was also an interesting "Palestine badge proposal" depiciting the old part of Jerusalem (which may have been used on the Union flag or a blue or red defaced ensign) in 1933 but this never saw the light of day. Source fotw.net -Unsigned
I think that what Rhashidi means is that Rashidi was a rival of Musa Qazzem, not of the Mufti. In 1920, Hadj Amin was not yet Mufti of Jerusalem and was quite young to be a rival. Would not Khalidi means that:
I am not sure to understand. If so, this is problematic. What does Khalidi mean exactly ? Ceedjee ( talk) 10:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Ceedjee: (1) Are you sure Tom Segev days Musa Kazim al-Husayni was involved in the riots? Khalidi just says he was replaced after the riots. (2) I'm not sure about the 20,000, where you put a citation needed. The 'Revolt' text is mainly a copy from the 1948 War article, so if its wrong here its wrong there. -- JaapBoBo ( talk) 13:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that Hertz has made an edit changing where the boundaries of the Mandate lie. According to the sources, by 1922 the Transjordan was a separate mandate and should therefore be listed as the eastern boundary of the British Mandate in Palestine, unless we are defining boundaries for the first two years of the Mandate only. Tiamut 14:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Please don't restore these or similar statements without a citation.-- BirgitteSB 16:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Israel and Jordan are fine... even though Israel and Jordan weren't created at exactly the same time... it's in the right ball park... but I've changed the Palestinian National Authority to "Palestinian territories" because the PNA was not established until 1994. I'm not even sure we should have any Palestinian entity since the West Bank was controlled by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt... maybe we need articles like Jordanian control of the West Bank and Egyptian control of Gaza. I am not sure but suggestions would be great. gren グレン 05:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Currently this article is hosted at 'British Mandate of Palestine'. The introduction introduces it as 'The Palestine Mandate', two other alternatives, THEN 'British Mandate of Palestine'. I think it would be best if the article started off with the name reflecting the title of the article itself. This could be served by moving the last term to the forefront, or moving the article to 'The Palestine Mandate'. I don't know enough about this issue to know which of these four titles (or more) would be most appropriate. Seeing as how this talk hasn't seen any activity for over half a year, I think now would be a good time for those in the know to discuss this to improve the article. Tyciol ( talk) 18:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I have mentioned in the introduction that the British and French governments employed the new League of Nations Mandate system to remove the nascent government of Syria and Palestine, and prevented the formation of an Arab confederation of states. Since this has always been a matter of disputed state succession, it is important that the basic facts be included in the article.
The Sykes-Picot Agreement had called for an independent Arab state, or confederation of states. The portion of the agreement that covered the International Condominium for Jerusalem specifically mentioned the participation of the Sharif of Mecca. The state of Hedjaz was not occupied or subjected to any League of Nations mandate.
At the Paris Peace Conference, Prime Minister Lloyd George told the allies that (1) The McMahon-Hussein Notes were a treaty obligation;(2) That the agreement with Hussein had actually been the basis for the Sykes-Picot Agreement;(3) That the French could not use the proposed League Of Nations Mandate System to break the terms of the Hussein Agreement; (4)That if the French occupied the areas of Damascus, Homs, Homa, and Allepo it would be a violation of the agreement. Arthur Balfour was present at this meeting. see pages 1-10 of the minutes of the meeting of the Council of Four starting here: 'The Council of Four: minutes of meetings March 20 to May 24, 1919, page 1'
President Wilson was in attendance, and said the United States was indifferent to the claims of Great Britain and France over peoples, unless those peoples wanted them. He recommended that a commission of inquiry be sent to the region. The King-Crane Commission recognized the Syrian Congress and Faisal as representatives of the Palestinian people. Decades later the UNSCOP Committee also claimed that the Syrian Congress had represented the Palestinian community:
"178. With regard to the allegation that the wishes of the Palestine community had not been the principal consideration in the selection of the mandatory Power, it should be noted that the resolutions of the General Syrian Congress of 2 July 1919, in considering under certain conditions the possibility of the establishment of a mandate over the Arab countries, gave Great Britain as a second choice, the United States of America being the first. This choice was also noted by the King-Crane Commission." A/364, 3 September 1947
The Anglo-French Declaration of 1918 had authorized the Arabs to establish their own governments, and they did. Here is a chronology :
This decision read in part (file 763.72119/9869, document I.C.P. 106):
"(a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the proce's-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine;"
The League of Nations Mandates were international legal instruments. The mandated territories held an international legal status. see ICJ Reports, International Status of South West Africa, 1950.
When the question of Palestine was referred to the United Nations, the three Jewish Agency spokesmen claimed it was a legal case based upon the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate. Their legal counsel, Jacob Robinson, published a book about the UNSCOP hearings and made the same claim. See Palestine and the United Nations: Prelude to Solution, By Jacob Robinson, Public Affairs Press, 1947, page 203.
The negotiating history of the Allied and Associated Powers and their published discussions about the obligations arising from their international undertakings are a little more relevant than yet another discussion about the history of the ancient Canaanites and Israelites. harlan ( talk) 22:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
The text quoted is actually the second paragraph. Telaviv1 ( talk) 09:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
The article is not about the US and a statement such as "Under the plan of the US Constitution, Article 1, the Congress was delegated the power to declare or define the Law of Nations in cases where its terms might be vague or indefinite." makes this into a ridiculously US centric one. instead of succinctly saying that the US signed a specific agreement with the UK concerning the relationship with Palestine it goes on and on and the eight changed article are not significant. Mashkin ( talk) 21:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM referred to the last sentence of the new draft which referred to the wishes of the communities in question. COMMANDER STASSEN declared that this was quoted word for word from the League Covenant. REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM wondered whether these wishes might not be the majority wishes and pointed out that in Palestine the Arabs were in a substantial majority. He declared that according to the Treaty of 1925 no changes could be made in the mandated status of Palestine without the consent of the United States. The British White Paper was illegal according to the terms of the mandate. The Arabs, he declared, were trying to obtain something for their own protection. The Jews in Palestine were in the minority, and with immigration stopped the Arabs were trying to keep them in the same ratio. MR. DUNN agreed that this was the correct interpretation. REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM declared that the Arabs had no right to take this position according to the mandate and the treaty with the United States.
"Under the unanimity rule (Articles 4 and 5 of the Covenant), the Council could not impose its own view on the Mandatory. It could of course ask for an advisory opinion of the Permanent Court but that opinion would not have binding force, and the Mandatory could continue to turn a deaf ear to the Council's admonitions. In such an event the only course left to defend the interests of the inhabitants in order to protect the sacred trust would be to obtain an adjudication by the Court on the matter connected with the interpretation or the application of the provisions of the Mandate. But neither the Council nor the League was entitled to appear before the Court. The only effective recourse for protection of the sacred trust would be for a Member or Members of the League to invoke Article 7 and bring the dispute as also one between them and the Mandatory to the Permanent Court for adjudication."
The article states that "American President Woodrow Wilson protested British concessions in a cable to the Brihttp://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:British_Mandate_of_Palestine&action=edittish Cabinet". The only reference for this cable that I could find (except for other Wikipedia articles that use it) was from a political pamphlet [20] by one Meir Abelson, who is not a historian of any standing. Furthermore, he does not provide a source for his quote, which makes it impossible to confirm it and consider its context (which is particularly important given the distinct political slant of his writing). I have been unable to find this quote in the 69 volumes of Arthur S. Link, The Papers of Woodrow Wilson. Unless a more reliable source is provided, I would like to remove this quote. Copies of this message are posted in other Wikipedia articles where this cable is quoted with the hope of finding more information about it.-- 128.139.104.49 ( talk) 13:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I'll leave this to people who know more about editing this specific page, but based on Wiki-available dates the whole section seems to suffer from a non-chronological logic. I note specifically that it currently says 'After Sykes-Picot'.... and then discusses the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, which was concluded about four months before S-P. I also note that the Balfour Declaration, 1917 is also noted before Hussein-McMahon even though it was promulgated nearly two years later. I believe an encyclopedia should employ a basic chronological logic and let historic dates determine order of presentation. Apparently some others consider different motivations preeminent. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 12:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The Land Ownership section IS NOT BACKED UP BY ANY SOURCE!!! Why is it in there? Other statistics contradict the numbers there. Furthermore, their source is a dead link!
Demographics of Jerusalem —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.106.144 ( talk) 22:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Amoruso, please justify your changes.-- Doron 16:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow, now a few millennia are summed up in the (rather unreadable) intro, isn't this going a bit too far? How about restoring the old intro that only introduced the British period, how it began and how it ended (i.e., only mention the Ottoman period, mandate establishment and termination) and leave the long story to the History section?-- Doron 00:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
There's been a bit of dispute here. There's good reason for this, as much that is easily available is very confusing or impossible. I thought I might throw my 2 cents in about some things that could be added to help clarify things. First, good work, Ian. This latest version increases the accuracy and has a lot of good info. Second, I believe Amoruso's version is completely in good faith, but it contains some "well known" but untrue, indeed impossible misconceptions, along with some good points that should be here. As is here now, and as I just reclarified in the San Remo conference article, there is no question that in April or August 1920 the borders of Palestine and the other mandates were not yet really drawn. Look at the resolution and treaty of Sevres. I'll speak mainly of Jordan and Palestine. Until Samuel's arrival in June 1920 everything, Jordan and Palestine was part of OETA (Occupied Enemy Territory) (mainly) South. But Samuel was explicitly and repeatedly instructed by his superiors that his authority and the mandate only extended to the Jordan river (see Wasserstein, Israelis and Palestinians: Why Do they fight, ca. p. 100 an excellent, too short but very clear reference on this period) "in order to not prejudice the decision of the powers" ( quoted (from memory) from Leonard Stein's Balfour Declaration, footnote on next to last page, another excellent reference.).
So the original (provisional) eastern border of Palestine was the Jordan river. And all the sequel did in essence was to confirm this in a circuitous way. After Abdullah arrived in Jordan, as related in Kirkbride's memoirs that Amoruso referred to, he asked Kirkbride if he happened to know just who owned Jordan. Kirkbride candidly replied that nobody really knew. (You can see the lightbulb going on over Abdullah's head. :-) ) Something important that is missing is the March 1921 Cairo Conference (1921), see British Mandate of Iraq which occurred before Churchill visited Jerusalem ( A convenient reference is Fromkin's Peace to End all Peace.] . Britain did indeed "alter" the mandate there. The decision was made to ADD article 25 to the December 1920 (IIRC) draft of the mandate Article 25 allowed differing treatment of Jordan and Palestine under the terms of the mandate and having the JNH only in the latter. The decision was to add Jordan to the Mandate terrritory and "give" it provisionally to Abdullah. It was already "occupied by force by Abdullah and it had nothing to do with the designated mandate" as Amoruso said. .But this did not partition the mandate - which was impossible - Jordan was already controlled by Abdullah more or less, and legally Jordan was still OETA, not being under the mandate's civil administration, not part of the mandate's territory in any sense yet.
To be repetitive, the March 1921 Cairo/Jerusalem events ADDED Jordan to the British Mandate. under a then-modified Mandate document. There was no time whatsoever that Jordan was ever ruled under the full British Mandate document including the Jewish National Home provisions and the Balfour Declaration. There was no partition, just addition of a new territory under different arrangements, at a different time from the original territory. The rest of the history is relatively unproblematic.
A couple more amusing sidelights. What did the Zionists think of this? As Wasserstein relates, the Zionist Executive had no problem with this and ratified these arrangements in 1922. In particular " Jabotinsky, had as a member of the Zionist Executive, endorsed the arrangements in 1922 that explicitly prohibited Jewish settlement in Transjordan." But "most Revisionists conveniently forgot that." :-) For later, as his article here relates, "His new party demanded that the Zionist movement recognize as its objective the establishment of a Jewish state along both banks of the Jordan River." Basically he said "we wuz robbed" but forgot to mention he was one of the "robbers." This is pretty much the origin of the confusion and distortion that led to some recent disputes. Another amusing sidelight is the National Government of Moab established in Transjordan under Samuel's but not the Mandate's authority before the Cairo Conference - the references I put there, Sachar, Sykes are also worth looking at. Were another proof needed, it shows that Jordan was not considered part of the mandate then.
Anyways, hope this farrago helps someone. John Z 11:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Will you all stop edit warring already and discuss things on the talk page! *sigh*
Now the map that does not distinguish between Palestine proper and Transjordan is misleading. Transjordan was never administrated as part of Palestine and almost all official references to Palestine refer to the territory west of the Jordan River. A map that fails to make this distinction creates the false impression that Transjordan was actually part of Palestine, whereas in fact it was a separate entity. The inclusion of Transjordan is really only relevant to the short period when the Mandate was being established.-- Doron 21:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
In 1920 it was decided that there was going to be a Palestine Mandate. It was a decision about what was going to happen and did not immediately create the mandate entity with GB in charge of it. If the US decided that Puerto Rico was going to become independent, it would not be suddenly independent from that moment. Independence would only come at a declared moment after all the legal formalities had been completed, perhaps years later. The Palestine administration answered only to the British crown until 1923, as you can see from where they submitted all their reports. It did not answer to the League of Nations as a mandatory authority as there was no legal basis for that yet. Until the mandate document was approved by the League of Nations in 1922, the details of the mandate were still being negotiated, not only between GB and the League of Nations but between GB and the other powers (esp. France). One of the things decided during that negotiating period was the disposition of Transjordan, with the complete approval of the League of Nations. As illustrations that I'm not making this up, see this 1921 report. Note (1) "on July 1st, 1920, by order of His Majesty's Government a Civil Administration was established in Palestine" (i.e. not by authority of the League of Nations); (2) "the many improvements which the country needs ... have had to be postponed until the Mandate is promulgated" (i.e. there was no official mandate yet). Next see the Palestine Order in Council of August 1922 which replaced the previous British administration by a mandate administration with a completely different legal basis. Then look at this 1922 report which states "the principal event of the year 1922 has been the approval by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24th, 1922, of the British Mandate for the administration of the territory" (i.e. it was not official before that). Finally, see the 1923 report of the mandate government which is clearly labeled the "first annual report to the council of the League of Nations". Look, this whole question would be just a minor historical footnote except that some people want to make an argument that the Jews were cheated out of Transjordan (and the Golan, and the Litani River, etc etc). (Amoruso proved this point just now as I was typing by repeating the absolute falsehood that "all" of the mandate was intended for the Jews.) It's a worn-out political barrow that we should not be pushing. -- Zero talk 16:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll add: for an even better proof that the statement "it became a legal entity under the San Remo conference, and subsequently, the British began exercising their mandate, through the power of a High Commissioner, in 1920" is incorrect, I refer you to
the text of the Sanremo resolution. To quote "The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust ... the administration of Palestine ... to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers." You see, at that point of time it was not even official that the Mandatory was going to be Great Britain. (Actually there was a strong push to get the USA to take the job, but they didn't want it.) The same lack of decision over who the Mandatory would be appears in the
Sevres treaty later the same year. So, no, Great Britain did not become the Mandatory for Palestine on account of either of these 1920 decisions. That did not happen until the League of Nations decided it in 1922. --
Zero
talk
16:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
“In the Turkish Peace Treaty, drawn up by the London Conference (February 12-April 10, 1920), finalized by the San Remo Conference (April 18-26, 1920), and signed by the Turkish government at the French town of Sevres on August 10, 1920, the Mandatory for Palestine was tasked with ‘putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people’ ... . This was an outstanding success for the Zionists. “Though they failed to achieve their territorial goals owing to Britain’s compromise with France over Palestine’s northern frontier, and the effective separation of Transjordan from Palestine that followed … .”
- Ref: p.257-258, Empires of the Sand, The Struggle for Mastery in the Middle East 1789-1923. Efraim Karsh & Inari Karsh. Harvard University Press. 1999.
- Doright 06:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Image caption: there was never such an entity as the "Mandate for a Jewish National Home". That name is pure invention. Gilbert does not use it, either. The Jewish national home was to be in Palestine, not all of Palestine. The word in was deliberately chosen to avoid specifying how much of Palestine or which part of Palestine was intended; see Ingrams, Palestine Papers, for example. Note that nobody here is proposing that the image caption expresses the Arab position that the mandate was designed to deprive the Arab inhabitants of their right to self-determination in violation of the League of Nations Charter. This "debate" is between the Revisionist Zionist position and the neutral position. Those people trying to push their political positions into the figure should desist. -- Zero talk 10:19, 4 May 2007
(UTC) I looked at Gilbert's map and don't have much problem with it. He doesn't say that the whole area was ever given to the Zionists and even shows the much smaller area that the Zionists were hoping to get. Since the Jewish National Home is the topic of his map, it is reasonable for him to include information such as Jewish immigration to Transjordan. The topic of our map is different; adding the Zionist view without adding the Arab view as well would violate NPOV in our case. Gilbert's map shows an area "ceded to the French mandate" but fails to show the area that France ceded to the British mandate at the same time -- that's the main complaint I have with Gilbert's map. -- Zero talk 11:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Again, you can do all the WP:OR you want. I quite enjoy it. However, Gilbert captions it as:
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish National home."
I'm sorry you don't like it. - Doright 23:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
“His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The Balfour Declaration 2 Nov 1917”
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish National home."
"Area allocated for a Jewish National home, San Remo Conference 1920."
"The Palestine Mandate granted to Great Britain at the 1920 San Remo Conference as the region of a Jewish National Home." [ [3]]
(Resetting indent) So, it seems to me that we are in violent agreement on the following points:
On 24 April, in San Remo, it was decided to hand the mandates over Palestine and Mesopotamia to Britain without precisely defining the boundaries of the mandated territories. The officials of the Foreign Office discussed the future of the area east of the Jordan, and concluded with three possible outcomes. One proposal regarded the land as part of the independent Arab kingdom of Hijaz, ruled by Hussein, who had declared himself King of Hijaz. The second proposal regarded the area east of the Jordan as part of the territory over which Britain had just received a ruling mandate, and the third regarded it as part of the the Arab kingdom of Damascus, which was headed by Hussein's son Feisal.
The whole problem originated with Zero's Original research map where he tried to claim that the divison (making tarnsjordan a separate part of the mandate) was done in the 1920. see my original complain here: Talk:British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Problem_with_map . The truth is that the term "transjordan" came only after the UK decided to give this part of Palestine mandate to the Hasjhemite. This small detail have a clear infulance on the issue of the size alloted to the jewsih homelnd and does the western part need to be split again between Jews and Arabs. Zeq 13:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much the same map is found on the pro-Palestinian PASSIA.org site at http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html . AnonMoos 14:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
IP SockPuppet has requested this image be deleted. [ [5]]
This nomination for deletion is a violation of WP:Point and is an attempt to preempt the discussion on this talk page.
The IP editor states:
The map is self-made and is not in keeping with the best sources cited in the article in which it is used: British Mandate for Palestine.
Please note, WP:AGF does not excuse bad behavior. Clearly an editor felt it was better to try to delete the image after having lost the debate on this page.
- Doright 02:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
"The original Mandate for a Jewish National Home assigned to Britain at the San Remo Conference, 1920. "
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish Nation home"
"Area Allocated for Jewish National Home San Remo Conference" 1920.
"The Palestine Mandate, granted to Britain at the San Remo Conference in 1920, as the region of a Jewish Nation home,"
Michael J. Cohen, Prof. at Bar-Ilan University in The Origins and Evolution of the Arab-Zionist Conflict, 1987, p.64 writes :
Phone him :-)
Alithien
21:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
And I would add this primary source :
and this comment :
I'm sorry but since you are merely providing seemingly pointless and random quotations that at best represent some kind of unstated WP:OR synthesis, I'm going to have to limit my replies to once every two or three days. - Doright 23:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
As promised, I looked again at your above quotations and still can not determine how they refute the appropriateness of, or demonstrate that a POV is expressed by, showing Gaza and Kuneitra on the map. If you look at the WP:RS sources that I have provided for this map, you will see that they are included on their maps as well. I included them here because they are recognizable landmarks. Again, I respectfully suggest that you clearly state exactly what your objection is (rather than a rhetorical question) to the inclusion of Gaza and Kuneitra and then provide sources that support your claim. - Doright 23:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
No source is identified. It is therefore not WP:RS and can not be used in this or any other WP article. - Doright 06:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The question of exactly when the Mandate for Palestine began arose above. This being a legal question, I have located a book that is regularly cited as a standard source on the laws of the mandate system: Quincy Wright, Mandates under the League of Nations, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1930. Here are some relevant extracts.
"draft mandates adopted by the Allied and Associated Powers would not be definitive until they had been considered and approved by the League ... the legal title held by the mandatory Power must be a double one: one conferred by the Principal Powers and the other conferred by the League of Nations"
Thus three steps were necessary to put the system into effect:
(1) The Principal Allied and Associated Powers confer a mandate on one of their number or on a third power;
(2) the principal powers officially notify the council of the League of Nations that a certain power has been appointed mandatory for such a certain defined territory;
(3) the coucil of the League of Nations takes official cognisance of the appointment of the mandatory power and informs the latter that it [the council] considers it as invested with the mandate, and at the same time notifies it of the terms of the mandate, after assertaining whether they are in conformance with the provisions of the covenant.
The mandate texts or charters have been regarded by the League and the mandatories as the fundamental law for the areas.
These conclusions are justified by Wright over many pages. In summary, until the mandate was officially approved by the League of Nations it was only a draft. Incidentally, one detail given by Wright (p114) is that the July 22, 1922 decision of the Council was only a tentative approval of the Palestine and Syria mandates. It was thought important that these two mandates should begin at the same time, but there was a dispute between France and Italy over the Syria mandate. On September 29, 1923, the French and Italian delegates announced that their disupute was resolved, so both mandates were declared to be in force immediately. -- Zero talk 04:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The same opinion, that a mandate does not come into legal existence until the League of Nations says so, was given in all of the law books I could find that discuss the issue (about 6). These included: Temperley, History of the Paris Peace Conference, Vol VI, p505-506; League of Nations, The Mandates System (official publication of 1945); Hill, Mandates, Dependencies and Trusteeship, p133ff. -- Zero talk 08:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
That the Zionist Organization did not disagree with this assessment can be seen from a submission it made to the League of Nations in 1921. It refers repeatedly to the "draft Palestine Mandate" and uses the future tense. (League of Nations, Official Journal, Jul-Aug 1921, p443). -- Zero talk 08:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Two official statements from the League of Nations:
It was becoming increasingly clear to the politicians of the West that a peace treaty with Turkey was not to be concluded for some time yet, so in April 1920 the Allies decided that so far as the Arabic-speaking world was concerned they would implement the provisions of such a treaty as they envisaged. Such action was of course, highly illegal...this irregular conduct was more public spirited than otherwise. It was the only sensible thing to do...
Zero, I believe you can find the text in A Documentary History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict by Charles Geddes. I don't have immediate access but could get a copy within a few days or so. -- Ian Pitchford 11:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The Original Barnstar | ||
I realize this usually goes on User Talk pages but it is well-deserved here by a number of users. Bravo. Kaisershatner 13:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC) |
I filed a Mediation request, naming myself, Ian Pitchford, Alithien and Doright as parties. Other people who wish to be parties, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/British Mandate of Palestine and add yourself. If you want to add an extra issue for mediation, add it to the "Additional issues to mediate" section. Note that that page is only for accepting or rejecting mediation; there will be another place to post arguments if the Mediation Committee accepts the case. -- Zero talk 12:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. Could someone clarify the essence of the dispute that is being proposed for mediation? Is it the caption regarding "Jewish National Home," the specific borders on the map (Golan Heights??) or what exactly? I understand the map is being flipped back and forth, but what are the underlying issues in dispute? Kaisershatner 15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking for clarification because to me it seems like this is a question of fact. Either the Mandate was or was not called "for a Jewish National Home." Either the borders were or were not established, etc. Mediation shouldn't be required to solve such a problem. Am I missing the substance of this disagreement? Kaisershatner 18:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
There are both factual and presentation issues.
-- Zero talk 11:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
To Kaisershatner: two objections to your reasoning.
To Alithien: Between 1920 and 1924 several land tranfers between the British and French spheres took place. The western edge of the Golan was one of them but not the only one. According to excellent sources I found (which I will post here after I study them some more), the total effect was that the area of Palestine increased. -- Zero talk 10:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I have in mind a pair of maps, one for pre-1921 and one for post-1921, that shows when each border was determined. -- Zero talk 10:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
A series of maps showing the evolving status of the borders would be best. It's clear from the discussion above that even the simple point that the Mandate was not partitioned is not being assimilated by the quite knowledgeable contributors to this discussion. Transjordan was added to the Mandate in 1921. Until then it had been part of Occupied Enemy Territories East under the command of Faisal's chief of staff General Ali Riza el-Riqqabi and then part of Arab Syria. The opportunity to add Transjordan to the mandated territories only arose with the expulsion of Faisal from Syria and the disintegration of his authority in the rest of Arab Syria. As Bernard Wasserstein writes:
In a telegram to the Foreign Office summarizing the conclusions of the [San Remo] conference, the Foreign Secretary, Lord Curzon, stated: 'The boundaries will not be defined in Peace Treaty but are to be determined at a later date by principal Allied Powers.' When Samuel set up the civil mandatory government in mid-1920 he was explicitly instructed by Curzon that his jurisdiction did not include Transjordan. Following the French occupation in Damascus in July 1920, the French, acting in accordance with their wartime agreements with Britain refrained from extending their rule south into Transjordan. That autumn Emir Faisal's brother, Abdullah, led a band of armed men north from the Hedjaz into Transjordan and threatened to attack Syria and vindicate the Hashemites' right to overlordship there. Samuel seized the opportunity to press the case for British control. He succeeded. In March 1921 the Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill, visited the Middle East and endorsed an arrangement whereby Transjordan would be added to the Palestine mandate, with Abdullah as the emir under the authority of the High Commissioner, and with the condition that the Jewish National Home provisions of the Palestine mandate would not apply there. Palestine, therefore, was not partitioned in 1921-1922. Transjordan was not excised but, on the contrary, added to the mandatory area. Zionism was barred from seeking to expand there - but the Balfour Declaration had never previously applied to the area east of the Jordan. Why is this important? Because the myth of Palestine's 'first partition' has become part of the concept of 'Greater Israel' and of the ideology of Jabotinsky's Revisionist movement. (Wasserstein, Bernard (2004). Israel and Palestine: Why They Fight and Can They Stop?, pp. 105-106.)
Could that be clearer? -- Ian Pitchford 17:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I just got a copy of a very detailed paper on this subject: Y. Gil-Har, "The Separation of Trans-Jordan from Palestine", The Jerusalem Cathedra, vol. 1, 1981, pp284-313 (translated from the Hebrew journal Cathedra). Gil-Har agrees very well with Wasserstein's summary quoted above. One extra item I found interesting: at the time of the San Remo conference, some of the politicians thought Transjordan was going to be part of the French mandate for Syria. -- Zero talk 14:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
It is well known and documented that TransJordan was given to the Hashemites by Churchill in 'thanks' for their siding with the alies. They were landless as they were kicked out of Arabia for their treason! Giving away 78% of the Mandate was an illegal act. The new Hashemtite 'Kingdom' was also to be Jew free. 36,000 Jews were expelled and their property confiscated. ...[Fivish UK 21.1.2008]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.226.205 ( talk) 14:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Alithien above correctly questioned the name of Transjordan at its independence in 1946. It was "The Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan". Amongst other proofs, see the name under which they applied for membership of the UN [16]. I also have a translation of the 1946 constitution, which says "(The?) Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan" (I guess the choice between "Transjordan" and "Trans-Jordan" was made by the translator and doesn't reflect a distinction in the Arabic, but it would be nice if someone can confirm that). The name "Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" is frequent in the UN documents for about Apr-Oct 1949, then "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" starts in Nov 1949. It is clear that the usual story that the "Trans" was only dropped when the West Bank was annexed in 1950 is not correct. -- Zero talk 04:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
More historical trivia. Palestine Post report of Jan 25, 1949: "The Trans-Jordan Government has decided to alter the name of the country to the "Jordania Hashemite Kingdom". And if that's not confusing enough, the Palestine Post of Mar 3, 1949 reports that the name had been changed to "El Mamlaka el Hashemiah el Urdun (Jordan Hashemite Kingdom)" on the coronation of King Abdullah (25 May 1946) and that in 1949 there was an argument in the Arab League about Jordan's correct position in the alphabetical list of members. The PP of Apr 4, 1949 refers to "what is newly termed the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" (this is the name used on the armistice agreement with Israel). On May 6, 1949, PP reported: "Letters in English to the Trans-Jordan Government not addressed to 'The Hashemite Kingdom of the Jordan' will be ignored, the Prime Minister has announced, according to 'El Urdun'". I suspect that "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" and "Hashemite Jordan Kingdom" are just different ways to translate the same Arabic name, and that the name didn't really change after the "trans" was dropped in Jan 1949. -- Zero talk 05:29, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I found this in google books :
If I understand well he claims the name was changed between these elections and the annexion...
Alithien
20:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
On this website, that seems to be an official Jordanian website, they claim the name of "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" was officially chosen on May 25, 1946. They also give the date at which the election described by Milton Edwards : April 11, 1950
[17].
On wikipedia,
[18] an editor has written that the name changed from Trans-Jordan to Jordan in March 1949 and that in 1946, it is the Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan that was founded... (no precise source is given but this book : Harding, G. Lankester. 1959. The Antiquities of Jordan. Lutterworth Press, London. 2nd impression, 1960.)
The map is still wrong. it is Original by one of the participants here. we need a map from a real source. In any case this is an important source on the issue and on other such subjects such as rightofreturn. Zeq 12:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Gabi S., what's the problem exactly? I click on the link and get a map. What do yo mean by "link doesn't exist"?-- Doron 11:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The correct name of this article should be British Mandate FOR Palestine, not "of" Palestine. -- Gilabrand 13:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The title page of the document drawn up at the conference calls it "Mandate FOR Palestine." The text reads: Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine..." -- Gilabrand 14:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The defaced red ensign was never the OFFICIAL flag of the mandate, the Union Flag was. The red ensign was only used on merchant ships registered in the mandate. There was also an interesting "Palestine badge proposal" depiciting the old part of Jerusalem (which may have been used on the Union flag or a blue or red defaced ensign) in 1933 but this never saw the light of day. Source fotw.net -Unsigned
I think that what Rhashidi means is that Rashidi was a rival of Musa Qazzem, not of the Mufti. In 1920, Hadj Amin was not yet Mufti of Jerusalem and was quite young to be a rival. Would not Khalidi means that:
I am not sure to understand. If so, this is problematic. What does Khalidi mean exactly ? Ceedjee ( talk) 10:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Ceedjee: (1) Are you sure Tom Segev days Musa Kazim al-Husayni was involved in the riots? Khalidi just says he was replaced after the riots. (2) I'm not sure about the 20,000, where you put a citation needed. The 'Revolt' text is mainly a copy from the 1948 War article, so if its wrong here its wrong there. -- JaapBoBo ( talk) 13:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that Hertz has made an edit changing where the boundaries of the Mandate lie. According to the sources, by 1922 the Transjordan was a separate mandate and should therefore be listed as the eastern boundary of the British Mandate in Palestine, unless we are defining boundaries for the first two years of the Mandate only. Tiamut 14:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Please don't restore these or similar statements without a citation.-- BirgitteSB 16:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Israel and Jordan are fine... even though Israel and Jordan weren't created at exactly the same time... it's in the right ball park... but I've changed the Palestinian National Authority to "Palestinian territories" because the PNA was not established until 1994. I'm not even sure we should have any Palestinian entity since the West Bank was controlled by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt... maybe we need articles like Jordanian control of the West Bank and Egyptian control of Gaza. I am not sure but suggestions would be great. gren グレン 05:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Currently this article is hosted at 'British Mandate of Palestine'. The introduction introduces it as 'The Palestine Mandate', two other alternatives, THEN 'British Mandate of Palestine'. I think it would be best if the article started off with the name reflecting the title of the article itself. This could be served by moving the last term to the forefront, or moving the article to 'The Palestine Mandate'. I don't know enough about this issue to know which of these four titles (or more) would be most appropriate. Seeing as how this talk hasn't seen any activity for over half a year, I think now would be a good time for those in the know to discuss this to improve the article. Tyciol ( talk) 18:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I have mentioned in the introduction that the British and French governments employed the new League of Nations Mandate system to remove the nascent government of Syria and Palestine, and prevented the formation of an Arab confederation of states. Since this has always been a matter of disputed state succession, it is important that the basic facts be included in the article.
The Sykes-Picot Agreement had called for an independent Arab state, or confederation of states. The portion of the agreement that covered the International Condominium for Jerusalem specifically mentioned the participation of the Sharif of Mecca. The state of Hedjaz was not occupied or subjected to any League of Nations mandate.
At the Paris Peace Conference, Prime Minister Lloyd George told the allies that (1) The McMahon-Hussein Notes were a treaty obligation;(2) That the agreement with Hussein had actually been the basis for the Sykes-Picot Agreement;(3) That the French could not use the proposed League Of Nations Mandate System to break the terms of the Hussein Agreement; (4)That if the French occupied the areas of Damascus, Homs, Homa, and Allepo it would be a violation of the agreement. Arthur Balfour was present at this meeting. see pages 1-10 of the minutes of the meeting of the Council of Four starting here: 'The Council of Four: minutes of meetings March 20 to May 24, 1919, page 1'
President Wilson was in attendance, and said the United States was indifferent to the claims of Great Britain and France over peoples, unless those peoples wanted them. He recommended that a commission of inquiry be sent to the region. The King-Crane Commission recognized the Syrian Congress and Faisal as representatives of the Palestinian people. Decades later the UNSCOP Committee also claimed that the Syrian Congress had represented the Palestinian community:
"178. With regard to the allegation that the wishes of the Palestine community had not been the principal consideration in the selection of the mandatory Power, it should be noted that the resolutions of the General Syrian Congress of 2 July 1919, in considering under certain conditions the possibility of the establishment of a mandate over the Arab countries, gave Great Britain as a second choice, the United States of America being the first. This choice was also noted by the King-Crane Commission." A/364, 3 September 1947
The Anglo-French Declaration of 1918 had authorized the Arabs to establish their own governments, and they did. Here is a chronology :
This decision read in part (file 763.72119/9869, document I.C.P. 106):
"(a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the proce's-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine;"
The League of Nations Mandates were international legal instruments. The mandated territories held an international legal status. see ICJ Reports, International Status of South West Africa, 1950.
When the question of Palestine was referred to the United Nations, the three Jewish Agency spokesmen claimed it was a legal case based upon the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate. Their legal counsel, Jacob Robinson, published a book about the UNSCOP hearings and made the same claim. See Palestine and the United Nations: Prelude to Solution, By Jacob Robinson, Public Affairs Press, 1947, page 203.
The negotiating history of the Allied and Associated Powers and their published discussions about the obligations arising from their international undertakings are a little more relevant than yet another discussion about the history of the ancient Canaanites and Israelites. harlan ( talk) 22:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
The text quoted is actually the second paragraph. Telaviv1 ( talk) 09:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
The article is not about the US and a statement such as "Under the plan of the US Constitution, Article 1, the Congress was delegated the power to declare or define the Law of Nations in cases where its terms might be vague or indefinite." makes this into a ridiculously US centric one. instead of succinctly saying that the US signed a specific agreement with the UK concerning the relationship with Palestine it goes on and on and the eight changed article are not significant. Mashkin ( talk) 21:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM referred to the last sentence of the new draft which referred to the wishes of the communities in question. COMMANDER STASSEN declared that this was quoted word for word from the League Covenant. REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM wondered whether these wishes might not be the majority wishes and pointed out that in Palestine the Arabs were in a substantial majority. He declared that according to the Treaty of 1925 no changes could be made in the mandated status of Palestine without the consent of the United States. The British White Paper was illegal according to the terms of the mandate. The Arabs, he declared, were trying to obtain something for their own protection. The Jews in Palestine were in the minority, and with immigration stopped the Arabs were trying to keep them in the same ratio. MR. DUNN agreed that this was the correct interpretation. REPRESENTATIVE BLOOM declared that the Arabs had no right to take this position according to the mandate and the treaty with the United States.
"Under the unanimity rule (Articles 4 and 5 of the Covenant), the Council could not impose its own view on the Mandatory. It could of course ask for an advisory opinion of the Permanent Court but that opinion would not have binding force, and the Mandatory could continue to turn a deaf ear to the Council's admonitions. In such an event the only course left to defend the interests of the inhabitants in order to protect the sacred trust would be to obtain an adjudication by the Court on the matter connected with the interpretation or the application of the provisions of the Mandate. But neither the Council nor the League was entitled to appear before the Court. The only effective recourse for protection of the sacred trust would be for a Member or Members of the League to invoke Article 7 and bring the dispute as also one between them and the Mandatory to the Permanent Court for adjudication."
The article states that "American President Woodrow Wilson protested British concessions in a cable to the Brihttp://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:British_Mandate_of_Palestine&action=edittish Cabinet". The only reference for this cable that I could find (except for other Wikipedia articles that use it) was from a political pamphlet [20] by one Meir Abelson, who is not a historian of any standing. Furthermore, he does not provide a source for his quote, which makes it impossible to confirm it and consider its context (which is particularly important given the distinct political slant of his writing). I have been unable to find this quote in the 69 volumes of Arthur S. Link, The Papers of Woodrow Wilson. Unless a more reliable source is provided, I would like to remove this quote. Copies of this message are posted in other Wikipedia articles where this cable is quoted with the hope of finding more information about it.-- 128.139.104.49 ( talk) 13:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I'll leave this to people who know more about editing this specific page, but based on Wiki-available dates the whole section seems to suffer from a non-chronological logic. I note specifically that it currently says 'After Sykes-Picot'.... and then discusses the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, which was concluded about four months before S-P. I also note that the Balfour Declaration, 1917 is also noted before Hussein-McMahon even though it was promulgated nearly two years later. I believe an encyclopedia should employ a basic chronological logic and let historic dates determine order of presentation. Apparently some others consider different motivations preeminent. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 12:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The Land Ownership section IS NOT BACKED UP BY ANY SOURCE!!! Why is it in there? Other statistics contradict the numbers there. Furthermore, their source is a dead link!
Demographics of Jerusalem —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.106.144 ( talk) 22:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)