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Ed, you are playing with fire again. Your history here is mistaken in several important points, and most of all the article is not NPOV. The Mandate system was a means of dispensing with the colonial territories of defeated powers after World War I. Independence was offered by Britain twice: once to the Arabs, once to the Jews. It was part of a larger partition scheme of the Ottoman Empire, and included Syria and Lebanon (which went to France). Of course, there is also the colonial question: what right does a colonial power have to determine the future of land it occupies. I am curious as to the source for Jordan being called Palestine. In general, fix this up or revert, but as the article is now, it is inaccurate and cannot stay like that. Danny
Ed, a reasonable suggestion. Please spend some time researching the issues here before cutting and pasting bits and pieces of encyclopedia articles. It is making a joke out of a topic that is of life-and-death importance for both Palestinians and Israelis. Danny
I have moved into this article some history from another article, because I think it serves readers better here. This article is linked by 8 or 9 other articles. I never would have found it if I hadn't been trying to create it.
I have removed my speculation about Palestinian homeland and Jordan, as on reflection it seems to be entirely my own POV. Ed Poor
The page is currently being Merged (most of the material coming from over Palestine), I expect to finish it within 12-24 hours. -- Uri
Moved above note. -- Ed Poor 14:14 Sep 16, 2002 (UTC)
The duplication here with 1947 UN Partition Plan displeases me. Martin
I rewrote the part about Palestine versus Transjordan to make it more accurate and (I hope) less POV. Many other parts of the article need corrective surgery and I'll get to that eventually. -- zero UTC 16:00 July 26 2003.
Sorry to whoever was editing the "Holocaust" section at the same time as I was rewriting it. I think my version is more detailed and more accurate. -- zero UTC 10:54 Aug 4 2003.
The Palestinians had prior to World War I had the status of peasants (felaheen), and did not own their land although they might own the trees that grew on that land. When Jews, who grew up with European laws, purchased land they did not always realise that the villagers on that land owned the trees. - I would like to see a reference for this because I have read many history books on this subject and never heard about this issue of ownership of trees. In fact land sales were regulated by the British authorities who followed the Ottoman laws except in some cases where they ammended them to give the authorities more power. This article needs a section describing the land tenure issue in more detail, since it was one of the key causes of conflict during the mandate. I put it on my (long) list of things to do. -- zero UTC 13:55 7 Aug 2003.
Zero0000 added "The British authorities were also paranoid about the possibility of German agents entering Palestine, though there is apparently not a single known example."
I have just read the League of Nations document creating the Mandate for the first time. I did not know that the Preamble and Article 2 (Article 1 confers powers upon the Mandatory Power, Great Britain) well...the Preamble says (in part): well better to read it yourself and Article 2 says: "The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion." Which reads that Britain is required to create a Jewish nation home with civil and religious rights for all inhabitants. Sounds like create a democracy, as one is understood in the West. Goodness! The Brits succeeded in fulfilling the Mandate in spite of themselves! What we have now is rather wishy-washy on the central purpose of the Mandate. Should the stated purpose of the Mandate be stated explicitly on the page British Mandate of Palestine? OneVoice 23:33, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Self-determination doesn't imply democracy (at least, as known in the US). Monarchy and other forms of government also qualify (as happened under the Transjordan mandate). Remember the deliberate ambiguity and Britain disclaiming an intent to have an independent Jewish state. Britain didn't succeed in fulfilling the mandate - we don't today have a single country of Palestine with Jews and Arabs living together with safeguarded civil and religous rights. Jamesday 14:16, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Jamesday, you are right that "we don't today have a single country of Palestine with Jews and Arabs living together with safeguarded civil and religous rights." But such might be rather easy to obtain. Should the Palestinians call for the annexnation of the Gaza Strip and West Bank to Israel and Israeli citizenship for all Arabs living within these new boundaries of Israel, we would have that situation but for the name of the country. Given the number of Arabs and the democratic nature of Israel's government "safeguarded civil and religous rights" would follow within a generation, if not less. At times, one wonders why the Arabs do not pursue such a policy as the easiest method of obtaining their goals. OneVoice 11:29, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That single state would have an Arab majority, so it's probably not a solution which can happen, because Israel wouldn't accept it in the near future. Israel already has a massive problem in its future, for even with no changes it appears that it will have an Arab majority in a few decades. One of the more troubling long term questions is whether Israel will use an apartheid system to avoid that Arab voting majority or not. Ultimately, unless there's a pogrom or forced exodus of more Arabs from Israel, it will have an Arab majority, so something needs to be done and the best something is a peaceful and prosperous Palestinian Arab neighbor and time for tensions to fall. Seems very unlikely that Likud will achieve that result, though Labor might. Jamesday 04:53, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
JamesDay, I dont feel that its my place to advocate one solution or path over another. I am not an actor on the stage, my opinion counts for nothing in framing the course of events in this conflict. I am not a member or representative of any government involved. Rather, I am trying to make available on Wikipedia the full range of paths, peace processes, proposals, etc., that have been suggested by those that do influence the course of events, so that people reading Wikipedia can form their own opinions with as little outside or wikipedia editorial comment as possible.
You are correct that given current demographics it appears that the Arabs either would have a majority in that "one state" or soon form a majority. I say appears, because the future has a way of surprising people and confounding the experts. Who would have forseen the sudden collapse of the Soviet Union or the outcome of either the 1948 or 1967 war. Post-facto many folks write about the "inevitability" of events.
Statements of apartheid, seem to prejudge a response to a situation that has not occurred. That's a judgement twice removed (the future response to a future event). I shudder to even think of making such statements.
Regarding which political party can acheive a solution, some suggest that only Labor could do so. Nixon went to China, Begin went to Camp David, Sharon removed communities from the Sinai, Rabin was know as "Mr Security". (I use communities in light of the fact that I live a "community/city/settlement" in a country that has displaced its native population, waged numerous wars that have had the effect of expanding the territorial bounds of the country, and studiously choses not to dwell on the fact. Not that there is much to do about it at this point in time.) It may well be more likely that Likud can take such a step than Labor due to its record and reluctance.
Regarding a "pogrom" (perhaps massacre or ethnic cleansing would be more appropriate) or forced exodus, we are in the realm of disputed history that will be used to cite a precedent of behavior. Before discussing that, the history dispute would need to be resolved. I doubt that will happen in those years that are left before me.
A peaceful, prosperous Palestinian Arab state is something that many would very much desire to see arise. This requires the cooperation of the populace. Groups within a society dedicated to a goal and willing to use force in the attempt to acheive that goal has a very good chance of preventing a state from obtaining those characteristics. This is once reason that some argue that the Palestinians must confront elements within their own society before a state should be established. OneVoice 15:26, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. It's a complex problem. I hope for the best but with a great deal of caution in my expectations. Jamesday 11:54, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
To OneVoice:
A "peaceful, prosperous Palestinian Arab state" sounds a lot like the Kingdom of Jordan: it's peaceful, it's prosperous, it's in Palestine and it's chock full of Arabs. What more do you want? -- Uncle Ed 15:53, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Ed: I suppose they want one on the other side of the river? - Penta 23:52, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
How about one that they don't have to emigrate to be part of? One that Palestinians (as opposed to Bedouin, as in Jordan) rule would no doubt also be nice. - 15:58, 22 March 2004
In any event, the original line of discussion was regarding the League of Nations mandate. Whatever you may have been told, Britain failed in Palestine. While we have something that may resemble the words of the League document today, when the British abandoned the mandate in 1948 they had nothing to show for their time there. No indigenous parliament or public service, no economic institutions, not even a working negotiation between Jews and Arabs. In my opinion if the British had done a better job the situation would be entirely different. But that's hindsight for you - we should not judge.-- Cuomo111 03:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, discussions among Wikipedians about how to describe the various facts, views and aspirations of the major groups -- is scattered all over this website (and is often interrupted by mean-spirited bickering).
When I first got involved in Wikipedia, I managed to "bring peace to the Middle East" (as I light-heartedly put it), but some people including me felt it was at the expense of a multiplicity of views. So I laid off for a year.
I don't have the time now that I did then, but I hope I have a clearer understanding of how to write unbiased articles.
Anyway, one very interesting 'elephant in the living room that no one wants to talk about' is the idea that:
Now I might be a partisan about this (check me if I'm veering into pro-Jewish, pro-Israeli, or pro-Zionist bias!!) -- but all the history I've ever looked at says that:
So the disposition of the British Mandate of Palestine has hinged ever after, on views of:
Now it seems to me (and thus I'm veering into partisanship for a moment, if I haven't been there the whole time already!) -- that Jordan was for at least some period of time intended to be the place where Mandate Arabs were to settle, and that if Jordan and the surrounding Islamic states had agreed to welcome refugees as citizens then everything would be fine. (Yep, that's a POV all right! ;-)
Am I the only one who's every thought of this? If so, it's "original research" and probably doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Not until I write a book about it and get it published. (Reminder to self: try Regnery).
All right, I'm out of time. But I hope I have provided food for thought. -- Uncle Ed 13:58, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"The Brits succeeded in fulfilling the Mandate in spite of themselves!"
It should be pointed out that:
1. Britain had conquered this part of the Middle East in 1917, before the League of Nations came into being. We had administered it for many years before the League of Nations gave us a "Mandate" to do what we were already doing. There was no need for us to agree with the mandate, we could have just added Palestine to our colonial possessions as was the custom of the time.
2. Britain originated the Balfour Declaration. We had the right to amend it to suit the changing circumstances of the time. We had responsibility for the existing population of Palestine, mainly Arab, that is why Lord Balfour was careful with the wording "being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". The agreement was for a "National Home" not a "Jewish State".
3. The trouble came with the massive immigration of European Jews and their policy of evicting the existing Arab farmers and putting Jews in their place. They had no regard for the rights of the people they were evicting and had a "Jews only" employment policy. This policy was clearly against the spirit and letter of the Balfour Declaration and would be illegal under most modern legislation.
4. The Arabs rebelled and the British put the rising down. They tried to stem the Jewish immigration which was the root cause of the trouble and were rewarded by Jewish terrorism. They now had both sides against them and this continued throughout WW2 where the Jews saw nothing wrong with conducting a terrorist campaign against the British who were fighting the Nazis, the very people who were trying to exterminate the Jews in Europe. You would have thought they would have supported us in this fight instead of stabbing us in the back. The assassination in Cairo on 6 November 1944 of Lord Moyne, the British Minister of State, by Jewish terrorists was just one example of their duplicity. Avraham Stern, the leader of the Jewish Lehi terrorist gang had actually approached Hitler to advocate an alliance with Nazi Germany against Britain.
5. In retrospect, the Balfour Declaration was a mistake. We had no right to take away another peoples land and give it to foreigners. We supported Zionism out of sympathy for the Jews and this humane policy backfired on us and resulted in this region of the Middle East being the prime cause of terrorism in the modern world. If Balfour had any idea of the trouble his "Declaration" would cause he wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole.
JP 29 Dec 2004
The San Remo conference did not fix the borders of Palestine. Here it is if you want to read it. - Mustafaa 22:38, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The new map of the British Mandate in the introduction is more appropriate for that section since it doesn't carry any information beyond the geography of the region. However I disagree that the British Mandate map with the Jewish settlements is in any way POV: it is a factual representation of the land owned by the Jews at the time. I've moved it to a more appropropriate section of the page that talks about the tensions between Arabs and Jews over the ownership of the land and the British resolutions targeted to ease the tensions. St33lbird 14:24, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"a part of the Golan Heights" is wrong. All of the Heights belonged to (French) Syria.
Arno
There was a large amount of political opinion and unsourced information on this page. Population estimates, unsourced and politically biased have been removed. The aim of those numbers was to claim that in spite of census data showing that Palestinians were a large majority that somehow that majority is mostly nomadic or refugee from the Hejaz. None of that is suppported by reputable voices on the subject.
The other thing removed was the vicious assertation that Palestinians didn't object to the Balfour declaration early on and that when they did, it was an anti-semetic reaction controlled by arab leaders. There are an abundance of counter-examples to this. Those picked this time were taken from _Paris 1919_ by Margaret MacMillian but other sources exist in abundance.
A paragraph making assumptions about British motives was also removed because it was nothing more than political opinion.
I'm also going to remove claims that attempt to claim that the 1936 uprising involved Italy. Its NPOV and further an attempt to de-legitimize what is recognized generally as a broad-based uprising that started in the Palestine Mandate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.116.7 ( talk • contribs) .
Why not propose a change here first, I don't even know what you're suggesting changing. Jayjg (talk) 09:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I added the citation disclaimer at the beginning of this article because there are many many places that need citations W00tfest99 19:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
It does not seem appropriate to open the body of the article with conspiracy theories about Zionism. I suggest moving the lengthy quotations concerning British political machinations to a subordinate section, entitled something like "Factors Leading to the Mandate", which might also incorporate the discussion of contradictory promises offered to Arab and Jewish groups. — JEREMY 06:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's the material in question:
British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire's South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with the Great Game and the planning for the Suez Canal. As early as 1840, Viscount Palmerston (later to become Prime Minister) wrote to the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire:
"There exists at the present time among the Jews dispersed over Europe a strong notion that the time is approaching when their nation is to return to Palestine. It would be of manifest importance to the Sultan to encourage the Jews to return and settle in Palestine because the wealth that they would bring with them would increase the resources of the Sultan's dominions, and the Jewish people if returning under the sanction and protection at the invitation of the Sultan would be a check upon any future evil designs of Egypt or its neighbours. I wish to instruct your Excellency strongly to recommend to the Turkish government to hold out every just encouragement to the Jews of Europe to return to Palestine."
Later, in 1907, a commission convened by Prime Minister Campbell-Bannerman issued a report declaring:
"There are people who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another ... if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects."
It does appear to be conspiracy material; I can't find any reasonable sources for these claims, and the sites that suggest they are factual and/or relevant are, to put it politely, less than scholarly. Jayjg (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I see now, it was inserted August 20-22 by a revert puppet: 69.138.215.194 ( talk · contribs) Jayjg (talk) 03:34, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I restored the Palmerston quote with a link. Could not find a source online that I liked for the Campbell-Bannerman quote, and the sources I did find disagreed over whether it was from 1902 or from the 1907 conference. Might have to look to hardcopy somewhere. Marsden 19:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
The introduction to the quotation inserted by anon IP/Marsden currently states "British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire's South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with the Great Game and the planning for the Suez Canal." This is highly POV, implying that the British interest in Zionism had something in common with "the Great Game" and its plans for the Suez Canal, and creating a linkage between them. Is there any evidence that British interest in Zionism had anything to do with these things, as opposed to various other causes (e.g. Christian belief)? Jayjg (talk) 17:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The External link http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story571.html Map of Land Ownership 1947] states that As of 1947, the Palestinians owned 93% of the total lands. Everyone familiar with the subject of land tenure in the region knows this is false. The referenced source is a mere anti-Israel propaganda outlet. Removing link from article. Doright 23:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Before we get into revert wars, let's be clear what is meant by "state-owned." From what I seem to recall, the British took over vast land areas in the region that belonged to the Ottoman Empire. I am not sure if they were "crown" (e.g., owned by the Osmanli sultan, or were public lands belonging to the government. In any event, they were surrendered to the mandate following WWI and therefore went into limbo after the British abandoned the mandate. UNSCOP probably assumed that public lands would fall to the regime that governed various sections of the partition; in any event, the UNSCOP recommendations never approached anything legal. -- Leifern 18:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The sentence, "The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population, although much of the land reserved for the Jewish state had already been acquired by Jews, had a Jewish majority, or was under state control," is phrased in a way to suggest that "the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs" and "most of the Arab population" were objecting to a partition that was strongly indicated by demographics and land ownership, which is biased and missleading. In fact, the partition was designed in a way that was profoundly prejudicially favorable to the proposed Jewish state, giving as much territory as it could to that state while maintaining a strong Jewish majority (55%). There is no legitimate need to refer to land under "state" control (really what this means is that no individual owned it; much of it was in fact tribally shared commons) in indicating facts that lean toward supporting Jewish control of land: obviously, land under state control doesn't on its own suggest any preferential treatment. The phrasing of the sentence has the effect of making the phrase "much of the land" less false by absurdly including "state" controlled land with Jewish-owned land, but it makes no sense to include; it is something like me claiming that I and the county government together control most of the land in my neighborhood -- true, but phrased in a way that has no purpose but to suggest something that has no basis in fact: that I control a lot of the land in my neighborhood. Marsden 20:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Is the Ottoman system of land ownership taken into account in the discussion about "state ownership"? I don't know a whole lot about this, but as far as I recall, the Ottomans had five different categories of ownership, which don't exactly overlap the private/public division. Much of the land belonged to the Sultan, but villages had rights with regards to them. The Mandate government was in the process of registering lands according to a modern system, but by 1948 had completed only a third of the survey. Thus, some of the 70% would include land that was "owned" by the state, but would naturally be designated as something else. Am I making any sense to anyone?-- Doron 08:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm commenting out this section:
This set of statistics has a long history. The source was a pamphlet published by the Israel Academic Committee on the Middle East, which attributed these numbers to "Government of Palestine, Survey of Palestine, 1946, British Government Printer, p. 257". How a 1946 British report would know which Arabs would "leave the area" in 1948 was not explained. Actually the pamphlet (reprinted later under the name of Moshe Aumann) has 8.6%, 3.3% and 16.5% where our version says 9%, 3% and 18%. These same numbers presented in various ways but always as "British statistics" has been in Myths and Facts since the 1970s. The problem is that the Survey of Palestine, on page 257 or any other page, does not have these figures. The only one of these numbers which could conceivably be derived from the Survey is the 70%, but only if one counts all land whose ownership had not been determined (more than half of all of Palestine) as state land. The Survey is also clear on the issue (alluded to above) of the way that the Ottoman land system was not parallel to the European one. As well as examples of ownership similar to European private ownership, there was land owned by villages, private ownership of an amount of land but not a specific plot of land, several types of permanent lease, and private land that reverted to the government if it wasn't cultivated regularly. The Survey is also clear that the vast majority of state land, both that legally determined and that which would probably be so determined, was desert or difficult hill country. In other words, as well as being based on unknown sources, these numbers are highly misleading. -- Zero 00:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, here is another source. Spot the difference.
And here is another:
And another source. This one is a map prepared for the UN in 1950 based on the Village Statistics compiled by the British administration in 1945: [11]. Anyone know the copyright status of things like this? -- Zero 03:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
To Jayjg, regarding the revert of my correction. I stand at the position that of the 55% of the territory (of Palestine) allotted to the Jewish state (55% of the total), approx. 9% of it was owned by Jews. You insist that 9% of what became Israel (78% of Palestine) was owned by Jews. This is incorrect. Going by my figure, Jews owned atleast 9% x 55% = 5% of Palestine. Add that to 1-2% of property in Jerusalem and Jews owned 6-7% of Palestine. Going by you figure Jews owned 9% x 78% = >7% of PAlestine. Add 1-2% of Jerusalem, and you have an unreasonably high figure. The reason this is unreasonably high is because in the same paragraph, you have the contradicting statement " the Jews have, so far, managed to acquire less than seven percent of the land area of Palestine." User:Bless_sins 2 February 2006
Anyone notice "The Jewish organization Etzel replied with its own terrorist campaign, with marketplace bombings and other violent acts that also killed hundreds. Eventually, the uprising was put down by the British using draconian measures."?
I'm proposing that this article be merged with Palestine Mandate. Personally, I think that this article is of much higher quality than Palestine Mandate, and I think that we should just dump the other one unless it has new info. ApathyInternational
Here's something about boundaries, Arabs, and Jews:
I'm still confused about (1) who said (2) which portions of historic Palestine (3) ought to go to Jews or Arabs (4) in which year. This is 4 distinct points of confusion, and I have been reading and contributing to articles related to the
Arab-Israeli conflict for over 4 years now.
Are we all working at cross purposes, or what? Please, let's some of us who want clear, accurate and neutral articles get together and straighten this mess out. -- Uncle Ed 15:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I've modified a passage in the article which contained some inaccuracies, namely:
-
Sangil
00:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've revised the intro for the Chaim Weizmann quote, which purported to speak as a representation of the entire Palestinian people. Whether it should be there at all, I'm not sure: there is currently no citation, and the placing of the quote suggests a bias. It is a very strong Zionist statement, made by only one, albeit important, man, and it should not be implied that this is the intention of the Israeli people or their governmaent at any time. Chrisbang 17:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, thanks, I've added the reference. My main problem was with the surrounding phrasing, stating that Palestinians believe this to be a better representation of Israeli intent, which is far too sweeping a statement, I think. Chrisbang 12:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. -- Ian Pitchford 12:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I once created an article Land ownership of Palestine, it was deleted. The major reason given was that it was a "fork". However, I would like to add the content to this article. The content can be accessed at User:Bless_sins/Palestine. Bless sins 15:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed this discussion, but being unfamiliar with its history, I referred it to an admin. I hope you don't mind, but I thought that this may not be the best forum for making this proposal, if only because of its low (?) traffic. It seems as if such a list could potentially be a useful tool though. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 22:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
You don't need permission to add relevant, sourced material to an article. Just go ahead. I have some additional statistics I can contribute. -- Ian Pitchford 20:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm not really sure why they didn't show up. I was just concerned about repetition of whatever caused it to be deleted as a fork previously. However, as Ian pointed out, it is relevant and sourced. On that note, would it be possible to create a "total" field on the district chart? Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The district chart has percentages, therefore you can't exactly add them up. Also the total is subject to controversy, so it best be explained in a paragraph on its own where all POVs are represented. Bless sins 11:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is this article titled "British Mandate of Palestine" instead of the proper legal name "Mandate for Palestine?"[ [18]] Doright 23:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Unless someone can explain why this article is not properly named as above, I propose changing it. If you object, please say so now, and explain why. Thank you, Doright 05:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there really a need for a separate Palestine Mandate article? -- Coroebus 16:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
... if "The Arabic speakers before World War I had the status of peasants (felaheen), and did not own their land". To put it more clear, who did the immigrant Jews buy the land from? -- Rebevedi 15:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure, he was very zionist in pardoning who was already a mass murder in the massacre of jews in 1920 and who would become nazi war criminal al-Husseini and, in January 1922, appointed him as the new Mufti, and even invented a new title of Grand Mufti. Amoruso 22:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this paragraph, which needs rewriting before insertion:
This is an argument for a particular point of view, not a dispassionate account as it should be. Of particular note is that the quotation uses "..." to hide the caveat "while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced" which formed the basis of the British case. This is unacceptable quotation engineering. Also, it is simply not true that the League of Nations was defunct by 1939. The last sentence needs a source and context, and what is that 1949 doing in there? -- Zero talk 14:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I deleted "The 1922 figures may refer to both banks of the Jordan river, at least for the non-Jews." The census report tabulates the population district by district and town by town, so it is quite clear that it does not include Transjordan. In fact the British did not conduct any census in Transjordan until at least 1938 (and I think never, but I don't have a source on that handy). Their annual reports contain a few estimates: For example, the 1924 report says, "the figure is thought to be in the neighbourhood of 200,000, of whom some 10,000 are Circassians and Chechen; there are about 15,000 Christians and the remainder, in the main, are Moslem Arabs." The 1935 report says that there had still been no census but that the population was probably in the range 300,000-320,000 of which all but about 30,000 were Sunni Moslems. This info should go somewhere but maybe not this article. -- Zero talk 14:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a quotation from Lord Palmerston (1840) early on in the article, but no connection is made between it and the topic of the article. I propose to delete it. Anyone like to argue otherwise? -- Zero talk 09:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to this statistic since the linked page referred only to land ownership in the Israeli partition rather than the overall Mandate of Palestine. 128.232.240.178 23:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was moved Patstuart talk| edits 17:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC) This article should be moved to British Mandate of Palestine because there exist British Mandate of Mesopotamia, French Mandate of Syria and French Mandate of Lebanon. Alternatively all these similar articles should be renamed to the designations which were used at the time of the mandates. -- Der Eberswalder 13:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
How is the subject of this article commonly referred? The current title, Palestine (mandate) implies that the answer is Palestine, but that name is used, and somehow mandate is an appropriate disambiguation remark. If the most common name is not Palestine, then the current title needs to be changed, but to what? The opening sentence of this article says: The Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Mandate of Palestine or British Mandate of Palestine, if accurate, suggests that one of those should be the name. I'm not going to vote until some of this is clarified. -- Serge 23:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
How could the United Kingdom issue the Balfour Declaration in 1917 if it was granted control of Palestine "by the Versailles Peace Conference which established the League of Nations in 1919" Either the grammar is ambiguous or this is anachronistic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.14.88 ( talk) 10:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
How do 800 Jews fit in a "rickety boat"? You Zionists gotta stop this hyperbole. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.14.88 ( talk) 10:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Ed, you are playing with fire again. Your history here is mistaken in several important points, and most of all the article is not NPOV. The Mandate system was a means of dispensing with the colonial territories of defeated powers after World War I. Independence was offered by Britain twice: once to the Arabs, once to the Jews. It was part of a larger partition scheme of the Ottoman Empire, and included Syria and Lebanon (which went to France). Of course, there is also the colonial question: what right does a colonial power have to determine the future of land it occupies. I am curious as to the source for Jordan being called Palestine. In general, fix this up or revert, but as the article is now, it is inaccurate and cannot stay like that. Danny
Ed, a reasonable suggestion. Please spend some time researching the issues here before cutting and pasting bits and pieces of encyclopedia articles. It is making a joke out of a topic that is of life-and-death importance for both Palestinians and Israelis. Danny
I have moved into this article some history from another article, because I think it serves readers better here. This article is linked by 8 or 9 other articles. I never would have found it if I hadn't been trying to create it.
I have removed my speculation about Palestinian homeland and Jordan, as on reflection it seems to be entirely my own POV. Ed Poor
The page is currently being Merged (most of the material coming from over Palestine), I expect to finish it within 12-24 hours. -- Uri
Moved above note. -- Ed Poor 14:14 Sep 16, 2002 (UTC)
The duplication here with 1947 UN Partition Plan displeases me. Martin
I rewrote the part about Palestine versus Transjordan to make it more accurate and (I hope) less POV. Many other parts of the article need corrective surgery and I'll get to that eventually. -- zero UTC 16:00 July 26 2003.
Sorry to whoever was editing the "Holocaust" section at the same time as I was rewriting it. I think my version is more detailed and more accurate. -- zero UTC 10:54 Aug 4 2003.
The Palestinians had prior to World War I had the status of peasants (felaheen), and did not own their land although they might own the trees that grew on that land. When Jews, who grew up with European laws, purchased land they did not always realise that the villagers on that land owned the trees. - I would like to see a reference for this because I have read many history books on this subject and never heard about this issue of ownership of trees. In fact land sales were regulated by the British authorities who followed the Ottoman laws except in some cases where they ammended them to give the authorities more power. This article needs a section describing the land tenure issue in more detail, since it was one of the key causes of conflict during the mandate. I put it on my (long) list of things to do. -- zero UTC 13:55 7 Aug 2003.
Zero0000 added "The British authorities were also paranoid about the possibility of German agents entering Palestine, though there is apparently not a single known example."
I have just read the League of Nations document creating the Mandate for the first time. I did not know that the Preamble and Article 2 (Article 1 confers powers upon the Mandatory Power, Great Britain) well...the Preamble says (in part): well better to read it yourself and Article 2 says: "The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion." Which reads that Britain is required to create a Jewish nation home with civil and religious rights for all inhabitants. Sounds like create a democracy, as one is understood in the West. Goodness! The Brits succeeded in fulfilling the Mandate in spite of themselves! What we have now is rather wishy-washy on the central purpose of the Mandate. Should the stated purpose of the Mandate be stated explicitly on the page British Mandate of Palestine? OneVoice 23:33, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Self-determination doesn't imply democracy (at least, as known in the US). Monarchy and other forms of government also qualify (as happened under the Transjordan mandate). Remember the deliberate ambiguity and Britain disclaiming an intent to have an independent Jewish state. Britain didn't succeed in fulfilling the mandate - we don't today have a single country of Palestine with Jews and Arabs living together with safeguarded civil and religous rights. Jamesday 14:16, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Jamesday, you are right that "we don't today have a single country of Palestine with Jews and Arabs living together with safeguarded civil and religous rights." But such might be rather easy to obtain. Should the Palestinians call for the annexnation of the Gaza Strip and West Bank to Israel and Israeli citizenship for all Arabs living within these new boundaries of Israel, we would have that situation but for the name of the country. Given the number of Arabs and the democratic nature of Israel's government "safeguarded civil and religous rights" would follow within a generation, if not less. At times, one wonders why the Arabs do not pursue such a policy as the easiest method of obtaining their goals. OneVoice 11:29, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That single state would have an Arab majority, so it's probably not a solution which can happen, because Israel wouldn't accept it in the near future. Israel already has a massive problem in its future, for even with no changes it appears that it will have an Arab majority in a few decades. One of the more troubling long term questions is whether Israel will use an apartheid system to avoid that Arab voting majority or not. Ultimately, unless there's a pogrom or forced exodus of more Arabs from Israel, it will have an Arab majority, so something needs to be done and the best something is a peaceful and prosperous Palestinian Arab neighbor and time for tensions to fall. Seems very unlikely that Likud will achieve that result, though Labor might. Jamesday 04:53, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
JamesDay, I dont feel that its my place to advocate one solution or path over another. I am not an actor on the stage, my opinion counts for nothing in framing the course of events in this conflict. I am not a member or representative of any government involved. Rather, I am trying to make available on Wikipedia the full range of paths, peace processes, proposals, etc., that have been suggested by those that do influence the course of events, so that people reading Wikipedia can form their own opinions with as little outside or wikipedia editorial comment as possible.
You are correct that given current demographics it appears that the Arabs either would have a majority in that "one state" or soon form a majority. I say appears, because the future has a way of surprising people and confounding the experts. Who would have forseen the sudden collapse of the Soviet Union or the outcome of either the 1948 or 1967 war. Post-facto many folks write about the "inevitability" of events.
Statements of apartheid, seem to prejudge a response to a situation that has not occurred. That's a judgement twice removed (the future response to a future event). I shudder to even think of making such statements.
Regarding which political party can acheive a solution, some suggest that only Labor could do so. Nixon went to China, Begin went to Camp David, Sharon removed communities from the Sinai, Rabin was know as "Mr Security". (I use communities in light of the fact that I live a "community/city/settlement" in a country that has displaced its native population, waged numerous wars that have had the effect of expanding the territorial bounds of the country, and studiously choses not to dwell on the fact. Not that there is much to do about it at this point in time.) It may well be more likely that Likud can take such a step than Labor due to its record and reluctance.
Regarding a "pogrom" (perhaps massacre or ethnic cleansing would be more appropriate) or forced exodus, we are in the realm of disputed history that will be used to cite a precedent of behavior. Before discussing that, the history dispute would need to be resolved. I doubt that will happen in those years that are left before me.
A peaceful, prosperous Palestinian Arab state is something that many would very much desire to see arise. This requires the cooperation of the populace. Groups within a society dedicated to a goal and willing to use force in the attempt to acheive that goal has a very good chance of preventing a state from obtaining those characteristics. This is once reason that some argue that the Palestinians must confront elements within their own society before a state should be established. OneVoice 15:26, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. It's a complex problem. I hope for the best but with a great deal of caution in my expectations. Jamesday 11:54, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
To OneVoice:
A "peaceful, prosperous Palestinian Arab state" sounds a lot like the Kingdom of Jordan: it's peaceful, it's prosperous, it's in Palestine and it's chock full of Arabs. What more do you want? -- Uncle Ed 15:53, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Ed: I suppose they want one on the other side of the river? - Penta 23:52, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
How about one that they don't have to emigrate to be part of? One that Palestinians (as opposed to Bedouin, as in Jordan) rule would no doubt also be nice. - 15:58, 22 March 2004
In any event, the original line of discussion was regarding the League of Nations mandate. Whatever you may have been told, Britain failed in Palestine. While we have something that may resemble the words of the League document today, when the British abandoned the mandate in 1948 they had nothing to show for their time there. No indigenous parliament or public service, no economic institutions, not even a working negotiation between Jews and Arabs. In my opinion if the British had done a better job the situation would be entirely different. But that's hindsight for you - we should not judge.-- Cuomo111 03:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, discussions among Wikipedians about how to describe the various facts, views and aspirations of the major groups -- is scattered all over this website (and is often interrupted by mean-spirited bickering).
When I first got involved in Wikipedia, I managed to "bring peace to the Middle East" (as I light-heartedly put it), but some people including me felt it was at the expense of a multiplicity of views. So I laid off for a year.
I don't have the time now that I did then, but I hope I have a clearer understanding of how to write unbiased articles.
Anyway, one very interesting 'elephant in the living room that no one wants to talk about' is the idea that:
Now I might be a partisan about this (check me if I'm veering into pro-Jewish, pro-Israeli, or pro-Zionist bias!!) -- but all the history I've ever looked at says that:
So the disposition of the British Mandate of Palestine has hinged ever after, on views of:
Now it seems to me (and thus I'm veering into partisanship for a moment, if I haven't been there the whole time already!) -- that Jordan was for at least some period of time intended to be the place where Mandate Arabs were to settle, and that if Jordan and the surrounding Islamic states had agreed to welcome refugees as citizens then everything would be fine. (Yep, that's a POV all right! ;-)
Am I the only one who's every thought of this? If so, it's "original research" and probably doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Not until I write a book about it and get it published. (Reminder to self: try Regnery).
All right, I'm out of time. But I hope I have provided food for thought. -- Uncle Ed 13:58, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"The Brits succeeded in fulfilling the Mandate in spite of themselves!"
It should be pointed out that:
1. Britain had conquered this part of the Middle East in 1917, before the League of Nations came into being. We had administered it for many years before the League of Nations gave us a "Mandate" to do what we were already doing. There was no need for us to agree with the mandate, we could have just added Palestine to our colonial possessions as was the custom of the time.
2. Britain originated the Balfour Declaration. We had the right to amend it to suit the changing circumstances of the time. We had responsibility for the existing population of Palestine, mainly Arab, that is why Lord Balfour was careful with the wording "being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". The agreement was for a "National Home" not a "Jewish State".
3. The trouble came with the massive immigration of European Jews and their policy of evicting the existing Arab farmers and putting Jews in their place. They had no regard for the rights of the people they were evicting and had a "Jews only" employment policy. This policy was clearly against the spirit and letter of the Balfour Declaration and would be illegal under most modern legislation.
4. The Arabs rebelled and the British put the rising down. They tried to stem the Jewish immigration which was the root cause of the trouble and were rewarded by Jewish terrorism. They now had both sides against them and this continued throughout WW2 where the Jews saw nothing wrong with conducting a terrorist campaign against the British who were fighting the Nazis, the very people who were trying to exterminate the Jews in Europe. You would have thought they would have supported us in this fight instead of stabbing us in the back. The assassination in Cairo on 6 November 1944 of Lord Moyne, the British Minister of State, by Jewish terrorists was just one example of their duplicity. Avraham Stern, the leader of the Jewish Lehi terrorist gang had actually approached Hitler to advocate an alliance with Nazi Germany against Britain.
5. In retrospect, the Balfour Declaration was a mistake. We had no right to take away another peoples land and give it to foreigners. We supported Zionism out of sympathy for the Jews and this humane policy backfired on us and resulted in this region of the Middle East being the prime cause of terrorism in the modern world. If Balfour had any idea of the trouble his "Declaration" would cause he wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole.
JP 29 Dec 2004
The San Remo conference did not fix the borders of Palestine. Here it is if you want to read it. - Mustafaa 22:38, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The new map of the British Mandate in the introduction is more appropriate for that section since it doesn't carry any information beyond the geography of the region. However I disagree that the British Mandate map with the Jewish settlements is in any way POV: it is a factual representation of the land owned by the Jews at the time. I've moved it to a more appropropriate section of the page that talks about the tensions between Arabs and Jews over the ownership of the land and the British resolutions targeted to ease the tensions. St33lbird 14:24, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"a part of the Golan Heights" is wrong. All of the Heights belonged to (French) Syria.
Arno
There was a large amount of political opinion and unsourced information on this page. Population estimates, unsourced and politically biased have been removed. The aim of those numbers was to claim that in spite of census data showing that Palestinians were a large majority that somehow that majority is mostly nomadic or refugee from the Hejaz. None of that is suppported by reputable voices on the subject.
The other thing removed was the vicious assertation that Palestinians didn't object to the Balfour declaration early on and that when they did, it was an anti-semetic reaction controlled by arab leaders. There are an abundance of counter-examples to this. Those picked this time were taken from _Paris 1919_ by Margaret MacMillian but other sources exist in abundance.
A paragraph making assumptions about British motives was also removed because it was nothing more than political opinion.
I'm also going to remove claims that attempt to claim that the 1936 uprising involved Italy. Its NPOV and further an attempt to de-legitimize what is recognized generally as a broad-based uprising that started in the Palestine Mandate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.116.7 ( talk • contribs) .
Why not propose a change here first, I don't even know what you're suggesting changing. Jayjg (talk) 09:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I added the citation disclaimer at the beginning of this article because there are many many places that need citations W00tfest99 19:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
It does not seem appropriate to open the body of the article with conspiracy theories about Zionism. I suggest moving the lengthy quotations concerning British political machinations to a subordinate section, entitled something like "Factors Leading to the Mandate", which might also incorporate the discussion of contradictory promises offered to Arab and Jewish groups. — JEREMY 06:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's the material in question:
British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire's South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with the Great Game and the planning for the Suez Canal. As early as 1840, Viscount Palmerston (later to become Prime Minister) wrote to the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire:
"There exists at the present time among the Jews dispersed over Europe a strong notion that the time is approaching when their nation is to return to Palestine. It would be of manifest importance to the Sultan to encourage the Jews to return and settle in Palestine because the wealth that they would bring with them would increase the resources of the Sultan's dominions, and the Jewish people if returning under the sanction and protection at the invitation of the Sultan would be a check upon any future evil designs of Egypt or its neighbours. I wish to instruct your Excellency strongly to recommend to the Turkish government to hold out every just encouragement to the Jews of Europe to return to Palestine."
Later, in 1907, a commission convened by Prime Minister Campbell-Bannerman issued a report declaring:
"There are people who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another ... if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects."
It does appear to be conspiracy material; I can't find any reasonable sources for these claims, and the sites that suggest they are factual and/or relevant are, to put it politely, less than scholarly. Jayjg (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I see now, it was inserted August 20-22 by a revert puppet: 69.138.215.194 ( talk · contribs) Jayjg (talk) 03:34, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I restored the Palmerston quote with a link. Could not find a source online that I liked for the Campbell-Bannerman quote, and the sources I did find disagreed over whether it was from 1902 or from the 1907 conference. Might have to look to hardcopy somewhere. Marsden 19:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
The introduction to the quotation inserted by anon IP/Marsden currently states "British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire's South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with the Great Game and the planning for the Suez Canal." This is highly POV, implying that the British interest in Zionism had something in common with "the Great Game" and its plans for the Suez Canal, and creating a linkage between them. Is there any evidence that British interest in Zionism had anything to do with these things, as opposed to various other causes (e.g. Christian belief)? Jayjg (talk) 17:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The External link http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story571.html Map of Land Ownership 1947] states that As of 1947, the Palestinians owned 93% of the total lands. Everyone familiar with the subject of land tenure in the region knows this is false. The referenced source is a mere anti-Israel propaganda outlet. Removing link from article. Doright 23:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Before we get into revert wars, let's be clear what is meant by "state-owned." From what I seem to recall, the British took over vast land areas in the region that belonged to the Ottoman Empire. I am not sure if they were "crown" (e.g., owned by the Osmanli sultan, or were public lands belonging to the government. In any event, they were surrendered to the mandate following WWI and therefore went into limbo after the British abandoned the mandate. UNSCOP probably assumed that public lands would fall to the regime that governed various sections of the partition; in any event, the UNSCOP recommendations never approached anything legal. -- Leifern 18:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The sentence, "The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population, although much of the land reserved for the Jewish state had already been acquired by Jews, had a Jewish majority, or was under state control," is phrased in a way to suggest that "the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs" and "most of the Arab population" were objecting to a partition that was strongly indicated by demographics and land ownership, which is biased and missleading. In fact, the partition was designed in a way that was profoundly prejudicially favorable to the proposed Jewish state, giving as much territory as it could to that state while maintaining a strong Jewish majority (55%). There is no legitimate need to refer to land under "state" control (really what this means is that no individual owned it; much of it was in fact tribally shared commons) in indicating facts that lean toward supporting Jewish control of land: obviously, land under state control doesn't on its own suggest any preferential treatment. The phrasing of the sentence has the effect of making the phrase "much of the land" less false by absurdly including "state" controlled land with Jewish-owned land, but it makes no sense to include; it is something like me claiming that I and the county government together control most of the land in my neighborhood -- true, but phrased in a way that has no purpose but to suggest something that has no basis in fact: that I control a lot of the land in my neighborhood. Marsden 20:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Is the Ottoman system of land ownership taken into account in the discussion about "state ownership"? I don't know a whole lot about this, but as far as I recall, the Ottomans had five different categories of ownership, which don't exactly overlap the private/public division. Much of the land belonged to the Sultan, but villages had rights with regards to them. The Mandate government was in the process of registering lands according to a modern system, but by 1948 had completed only a third of the survey. Thus, some of the 70% would include land that was "owned" by the state, but would naturally be designated as something else. Am I making any sense to anyone?-- Doron 08:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm commenting out this section:
This set of statistics has a long history. The source was a pamphlet published by the Israel Academic Committee on the Middle East, which attributed these numbers to "Government of Palestine, Survey of Palestine, 1946, British Government Printer, p. 257". How a 1946 British report would know which Arabs would "leave the area" in 1948 was not explained. Actually the pamphlet (reprinted later under the name of Moshe Aumann) has 8.6%, 3.3% and 16.5% where our version says 9%, 3% and 18%. These same numbers presented in various ways but always as "British statistics" has been in Myths and Facts since the 1970s. The problem is that the Survey of Palestine, on page 257 or any other page, does not have these figures. The only one of these numbers which could conceivably be derived from the Survey is the 70%, but only if one counts all land whose ownership had not been determined (more than half of all of Palestine) as state land. The Survey is also clear on the issue (alluded to above) of the way that the Ottoman land system was not parallel to the European one. As well as examples of ownership similar to European private ownership, there was land owned by villages, private ownership of an amount of land but not a specific plot of land, several types of permanent lease, and private land that reverted to the government if it wasn't cultivated regularly. The Survey is also clear that the vast majority of state land, both that legally determined and that which would probably be so determined, was desert or difficult hill country. In other words, as well as being based on unknown sources, these numbers are highly misleading. -- Zero 00:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, here is another source. Spot the difference.
And here is another:
And another source. This one is a map prepared for the UN in 1950 based on the Village Statistics compiled by the British administration in 1945: [11]. Anyone know the copyright status of things like this? -- Zero 03:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
To Jayjg, regarding the revert of my correction. I stand at the position that of the 55% of the territory (of Palestine) allotted to the Jewish state (55% of the total), approx. 9% of it was owned by Jews. You insist that 9% of what became Israel (78% of Palestine) was owned by Jews. This is incorrect. Going by my figure, Jews owned atleast 9% x 55% = 5% of Palestine. Add that to 1-2% of property in Jerusalem and Jews owned 6-7% of Palestine. Going by you figure Jews owned 9% x 78% = >7% of PAlestine. Add 1-2% of Jerusalem, and you have an unreasonably high figure. The reason this is unreasonably high is because in the same paragraph, you have the contradicting statement " the Jews have, so far, managed to acquire less than seven percent of the land area of Palestine." User:Bless_sins 2 February 2006
Anyone notice "The Jewish organization Etzel replied with its own terrorist campaign, with marketplace bombings and other violent acts that also killed hundreds. Eventually, the uprising was put down by the British using draconian measures."?
I'm proposing that this article be merged with Palestine Mandate. Personally, I think that this article is of much higher quality than Palestine Mandate, and I think that we should just dump the other one unless it has new info. ApathyInternational
Here's something about boundaries, Arabs, and Jews:
I'm still confused about (1) who said (2) which portions of historic Palestine (3) ought to go to Jews or Arabs (4) in which year. This is 4 distinct points of confusion, and I have been reading and contributing to articles related to the
Arab-Israeli conflict for over 4 years now.
Are we all working at cross purposes, or what? Please, let's some of us who want clear, accurate and neutral articles get together and straighten this mess out. -- Uncle Ed 15:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I've modified a passage in the article which contained some inaccuracies, namely:
-
Sangil
00:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've revised the intro for the Chaim Weizmann quote, which purported to speak as a representation of the entire Palestinian people. Whether it should be there at all, I'm not sure: there is currently no citation, and the placing of the quote suggests a bias. It is a very strong Zionist statement, made by only one, albeit important, man, and it should not be implied that this is the intention of the Israeli people or their governmaent at any time. Chrisbang 17:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, thanks, I've added the reference. My main problem was with the surrounding phrasing, stating that Palestinians believe this to be a better representation of Israeli intent, which is far too sweeping a statement, I think. Chrisbang 12:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. -- Ian Pitchford 12:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I once created an article Land ownership of Palestine, it was deleted. The major reason given was that it was a "fork". However, I would like to add the content to this article. The content can be accessed at User:Bless_sins/Palestine. Bless sins 15:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed this discussion, but being unfamiliar with its history, I referred it to an admin. I hope you don't mind, but I thought that this may not be the best forum for making this proposal, if only because of its low (?) traffic. It seems as if such a list could potentially be a useful tool though. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 22:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
You don't need permission to add relevant, sourced material to an article. Just go ahead. I have some additional statistics I can contribute. -- Ian Pitchford 20:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm not really sure why they didn't show up. I was just concerned about repetition of whatever caused it to be deleted as a fork previously. However, as Ian pointed out, it is relevant and sourced. On that note, would it be possible to create a "total" field on the district chart? Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The district chart has percentages, therefore you can't exactly add them up. Also the total is subject to controversy, so it best be explained in a paragraph on its own where all POVs are represented. Bless sins 11:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is this article titled "British Mandate of Palestine" instead of the proper legal name "Mandate for Palestine?"[ [18]] Doright 23:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Unless someone can explain why this article is not properly named as above, I propose changing it. If you object, please say so now, and explain why. Thank you, Doright 05:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there really a need for a separate Palestine Mandate article? -- Coroebus 16:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
... if "The Arabic speakers before World War I had the status of peasants (felaheen), and did not own their land". To put it more clear, who did the immigrant Jews buy the land from? -- Rebevedi 15:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure, he was very zionist in pardoning who was already a mass murder in the massacre of jews in 1920 and who would become nazi war criminal al-Husseini and, in January 1922, appointed him as the new Mufti, and even invented a new title of Grand Mufti. Amoruso 22:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this paragraph, which needs rewriting before insertion:
This is an argument for a particular point of view, not a dispassionate account as it should be. Of particular note is that the quotation uses "..." to hide the caveat "while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced" which formed the basis of the British case. This is unacceptable quotation engineering. Also, it is simply not true that the League of Nations was defunct by 1939. The last sentence needs a source and context, and what is that 1949 doing in there? -- Zero talk 14:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I deleted "The 1922 figures may refer to both banks of the Jordan river, at least for the non-Jews." The census report tabulates the population district by district and town by town, so it is quite clear that it does not include Transjordan. In fact the British did not conduct any census in Transjordan until at least 1938 (and I think never, but I don't have a source on that handy). Their annual reports contain a few estimates: For example, the 1924 report says, "the figure is thought to be in the neighbourhood of 200,000, of whom some 10,000 are Circassians and Chechen; there are about 15,000 Christians and the remainder, in the main, are Moslem Arabs." The 1935 report says that there had still been no census but that the population was probably in the range 300,000-320,000 of which all but about 30,000 were Sunni Moslems. This info should go somewhere but maybe not this article. -- Zero talk 14:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a quotation from Lord Palmerston (1840) early on in the article, but no connection is made between it and the topic of the article. I propose to delete it. Anyone like to argue otherwise? -- Zero talk 09:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the reference to this statistic since the linked page referred only to land ownership in the Israeli partition rather than the overall Mandate of Palestine. 128.232.240.178 23:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was moved Patstuart talk| edits 17:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC) This article should be moved to British Mandate of Palestine because there exist British Mandate of Mesopotamia, French Mandate of Syria and French Mandate of Lebanon. Alternatively all these similar articles should be renamed to the designations which were used at the time of the mandates. -- Der Eberswalder 13:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
How is the subject of this article commonly referred? The current title, Palestine (mandate) implies that the answer is Palestine, but that name is used, and somehow mandate is an appropriate disambiguation remark. If the most common name is not Palestine, then the current title needs to be changed, but to what? The opening sentence of this article says: The Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Mandate of Palestine or British Mandate of Palestine, if accurate, suggests that one of those should be the name. I'm not going to vote until some of this is clarified. -- Serge 23:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
How could the United Kingdom issue the Balfour Declaration in 1917 if it was granted control of Palestine "by the Versailles Peace Conference which established the League of Nations in 1919" Either the grammar is ambiguous or this is anachronistic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.14.88 ( talk) 10:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
How do 800 Jews fit in a "rickety boat"? You Zionists gotta stop this hyperbole. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.14.88 ( talk) 10:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC).