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I'm not very well established with this whole wikipedia thing so apologies if I'm placing this suggestion in the wrong place. Just thought I'd suggest to the editor of this article the addition of a link at the bottom of the page? A wiki for Manchester has just been launched called Manclopedia. There's not much on there at the moment but I suppose, as with every wiki, all these pojects start out slow; I just thought it was worth a mention. You can find it at www.manclopedia.co.uk [1] (Good name as well.) Wikinekkid ( talk) 12:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I was working in the Beetham Tower today and took a few shots from the top. If anyone would like to use them, let me know and I'll put them in wiki commons.
http://flickr.com/photos/soundman/2764939261/ - there are others in my profile besides that. Parrot of Doom ( talk) 15:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There are no citations to back up 'Capital of the North'. This term should be deleted immediately as the term is used to refer to both Leeds and Manchester. Currently, putting that phrase there sparks dispute, particularly when no-one in the general public refers to any city as the Capital of the North. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.243.1 ( talk) 06:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Hey guys, just writing to find something out and I'm not very good on wikipedia so I thought this was the best way of asking. How is the Metro population of Manchester 4,209,132? Where is the official reference for that please?
-- Tubs uk ( talk) 15:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll admit I'm not from Manchester, but I am from the North. I am also aware that there isn't a particular capital of the North. Leeds is equally fitting to be the capital of the North, as is Sheffield. In the nicest way possible, Manchester doesn't really have a right to say it is. No city does until it is officially named as such. If you have some sort of official reference for it can you please show me? -- Tubs uk ( talk) 15:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
You've had long enough to respond to me now. These issues will be reported unless someone shows me reliable evidence of the Metro Population and the Capital of the North. -- Tubs uk ( talk) 22:33, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
At 167k and over a year of talking, should much of this page not be archived? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 11:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:RehovotLogo.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
The following images also have this problem:
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
"Manchester has the second largest urban zone in the UK and the fourteenth most populated in Europe."
This sentence has a link in it to a page that lists Manchester as the 16th most populated urban zone in Europe. Is there another source on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.208.60 ( talk) 21:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
That is exactly right. When I initially added the link Manchester was 14th on the list but as Mr Stephen asserts, since then the two Turkish cities have been added to the list. It is debateable whether Ankara is in Europe, Istanbul may be but I'm not sure. Perhaps just saying Manhcester is the 14th most populated urban zone in the EU might resolve it? GRB1972 ( talk) 18:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The 'LUZ' figure is ridiculous and should be removed, as it is simply another way to use a 'Greater Manchester' figure for 'Manchester', and bolster the cities population vs other cities in the UK. If you visit List_of_United_Kingdom_cities_by_population, which plainly lists the population of the UK's major cities, you will see that Manchester is 9th largest. The introduction should accurately show the population of the city, not use a figure which is purely promotional, and clearly refers more to Greater Manchester than Manchester. This is especially important considering this article is a FA. 78.109.182.8 ( talk) 15:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
This point has been debated at length before but in addition to the comments by Jza84, LUZs are defined by the Eurostat, the EU's own statistical agency, a credible and oft. referred to statistical body. They were created in an effort to harmonise definitions of urbanisation in the European Union and in countries outside the European Union (such as Turkey). These definitions were agreed between Eurostat and the National Statistics Offices of the different countries of the European Union at the occasion of the European Commission's Urban Audit of 2004. Populations given by them are not necessarily just based on the metropolitan data e.g Birmingham has an LUZ population of 2.35m and an area of 1598km2 where as the West Midlands has 2.6m and an area of 902 km2. GRB1972 ( talk) 17:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
It is worded in a way to make it seem like the urban zone is all Manchester. 'Manchester has the second largest...' - but the area is a 'LUZ' by definition (an urban zone and not just Manchester). Should this not be replaced with something along the lines of 'Manchester is the 9th largest city in the UK'. Surely this is a more accurate statement, as nobody considers Salford etc to be part of the city of Manchester? It seems like this article only mentions the LUZ because it makes Manchester the second largest after London, reinforcing the long debate about its second city status? 78.109.182.8 ( talk) 01:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The article already states that the popluation of the city of Manchester is 458,100 much smaller than that of the city of Birmingham so relax! There is a link to verify all the data regarding LUZs. Other cities on Wikipedia e.g New York City (which has FA status), Atlanta, Barcelona etc provide a city proper population and that of the wider area so this is not inconsistent with Wikipedia practise. I suspect had Birmingham a larger LUZ you would be less concerned. GRB1972 ( talk) 08:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You brought up the second city argument Fingerpuppet didn't - he simply validated the point I had made. Solid reasons have been given above why the introduction to the article reads as it does. The editors of this page and all others relating to Greater Manchester work tirelessly to maintain high standards and work entirely within Wikipedia guidelines which is why I am proud to be a member of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Greater Manchester. Despite your concerns I have every confidence that far from being defensive - contributors to Manchester and its related articles will continue to question, and where we are able to, improve all articles. GRB1972 ( talk) 12:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The thing is, there is little consistency to what figures are used. If all articles used 'LUZ' figures and it was widely regarded as a 'standard' then it would be fine, and most people would probably accept Manchester is bigger. I just think that the wording is very confusing, and makes it seem like the City of Manchester itself is the second largest and not the 'urban zone' extension which is not solely Manchester. Also, the population ranking in the infobox is somewhat hidden, whilst the LUZ ranking is given pride of place in the introduction. Surely someone can see where I'm coming from here? It just seems like only promotional figures are used.
To illustrate my point: Why is Manchester's population stated as 458,100, but not stated to be the 9th biggest city, when the LUZ is stated simply as 'second largest', and not quantified (2,539,100)?
P.S. it's probably best to keep Birmingham out of this, and I only mentioned the second city status in relation to London. 78.109.182.8 ( talk) 13:15, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You only mentioned the second city status in relation to London? London is significantly bigger and inarguably more important than all other British cities so I'm not sure why Manchester's LUZ is of any concern to London's position. The second city debate should and does take place elsewhere. I think we are in danger of going round in circles here - despite your concerns to the contrary, Manchester has FA status and with good reason - the article is very well written, verified and clear. GRB1972 ( talk) 13:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
A glance at the comments above shows that actually it was you who brought it up. I have explained above why the intro to this article reads as it does and my previous comments more than answer your questions. You are absolutely correct that FA articles are not always perfect and your comments on this article and any other are very welcome, respectfully though I suspect we just won't agree. GRB1972 ( talk) 15:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so I'm a little behind with this (hey, I've been away for a year!)...
Well done on the Featured Article status. This article came a long was from when I reviewed it for GA Status over a year ago. :) Pursey Talk | Contribs 21:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Due to my previous attempt and failure, as it was deleted, to create a page dedicated to the Manc accent I have tried again and kept it short, sweet and simple and have references. This time instead of criticising it could people contribute to it as the accent of Manchester is just as distinctive and famous as the Cockney, Scouse and Geordie accents and I believe the accent should have a seperate page. I am no Wikipedia expert so please if people could contribute it and give me any pointers it would be very much appreciated. Peace!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salfordsredarmy ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Someone might like to add to the text Manchester's 36 namesakes on two continents. "London, which has spread to 46 settlements on six continents, is second on the list, followed by Oxford (41 on three continents) and Manchester (36 on two continents). Bristol is fifth, equal to Wellington, with 35." (Jack Malvern. Richmond, in Surrey, is the most widely copied British place name worldwide, timesonline 2008-12-29. The original byline for the article in The Times of the same day was "The 55 corners of foreign fields that will be for ever ... Richmond" (page 9). Cites The Times Universal Atlas of the World.) PBS ( talk) 09:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I've been accused of being inconsistent in being a member of the GM project, yet not correcting the wording of the second sentence, even though I changed it on Leeds. The accusation is silly, because membership of a project does not imply that one agrees with or monitors every article in that project, but the issue is perhaps worth raising here. The figures given in the second sentence are for an estimated population size, and not a figure arrived at, however imperfectly, by means of a census. Is there any use in qualifying the figure in the second sentence at all, so that instead of reading "It has a population of 458,100..." it reads something like "It was estimated to have a population of 458,100 in 2007...", because it is useful to distinguish in the text between the two different kinds of methods and sources used to arrive at the figures for 2001 and 2007? DDStretch (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
(<-) User:Fingerpuppet is fantastic with demographic statistics for the UK, might be worth giving him a nudge? -- Jza84 | Talk 20:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm a tiny bit concerned that although it is perhaps admirable to have unprotected the Manchester article (after its long spell of semi-protection), the fresh wave of edits have added nothing of value to the page, with pretty much every single ip edit having been an unfavourable one. Every day this article is vandalised. Going forwards, what do we envisage happening here? -- Jza84 | Talk 13:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Jza84, you said above "We're getting ip edits distrupting the long standing consensus about 2nd city status". This is not a valid reason for semi-protection. I take your point about the earlier vandalism, but in recent days it has not been excessive. My main point is, however, that as an interested admin editor you should not be protecting this article. The cicumstances of the protection leave a lot to be desired. What are you going to do about it?
LevenBoy (
talk) 18:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Is this why I can't edit this page? It's crazy to stop the fun of editing for everyone based on a few vandals, isn't this against wiki's policy. I can understand them protecting George W Bush/Tony Blair, but protecting the page over the 2nd city status which is debatable, I don't agree it should be lifted like now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ladydiesel ( talk • contribs) 08:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) Once again: the page was not protected because of the second city dispute. If you want to talk about the second city, open a new section here; you will be referred back to long-closed discussions that led to the current position. (If you really want to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the debate, go and fix Second city of the United Kingdom) You will find that Arbcom have no appetite for this trivia. The first stage in dispute resolution is discussion here, and that stage has a long way to go yet. Mr Stephen ( talk) 09:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes I am aware that Arbcom will look at this in whatever way they want, but I would still support any pursue of getting this protection lifted, Is it going to be lifted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.37.220.150 ( talk) 13:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I personally would feel a lot better if the decision to protect this article wasn't made by someone who is very much actively involved in this article. Someone without an interest in it, so if I don't see any satisfaction from here on in, leaves me with no option. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mancunianboy (
talk •
contribs) 13:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
This article should be unprotected, I get the general feeling most average users would like to see it unprotected now, just under 3 months is plane stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.142.47 ( talk) 19:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
as a US resident, i was amazed, on being driven on the highway thru the center of manchester, that they have movable dividers that change the lanes for rush hour, so you have diff lanes going different directions depending on the time of day seemed insanely dangerous, to swithch lanes like that, but this must be my parochial viewpoint. Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 13:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi - I was reading this article via the main page and I'm not sure about the reference to having the most consulates in the UK. VisitScotland ( http://www.visitscotland.com/guide/travel/library/embassies-consulates) lists 31 consulates in Edinburgh as opposed to the 28 or 29 (depending if France is counted once or twice) listed on the MCA site cited in the article. Does the book cited give any more details that would protect Manchester's crown? Dalliance ( talk) 13:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Nothing yet on the visual arts etc. The main galleries are Manchester City Art Gallery and the Whitworth Art Gallery. Salford Quays has the Lowry Centre (which does have a few works by LS Lowry even if that doesn't fill the building) and the eccentric Imperial War Museum North by architect Daniel Libeskind. Also in Salford, the Salford Museum and Art Gallery. ProfDEH ( talk) 07:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Idle thought here, but is it worth mentioning the link between Manchester and Bees, as a symbol of industry? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 22:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
A quick glance reveals a few faulty references in this article:
Hi- I have mentioned this before but the IPA for Manchester is incorrect. It would only be pronounced with /r/ at the end by someone with say, a west country accent. It's been changed before but looks like someone's changed it back to the incorrect version again. Any chance someone could correct this? Cheers. Jetsetradio ( talk) 17:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I've studied phonetics as part of my degree and there's a big difference between [ə] and [əɹ], but I see your point- best to keep things simple. -- Jetsetradio ( talk) 12:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be a conflict between the information specified in the Governance section and the related Politics in Manchester article. The section indicates there are three tiers of government while the other article states there are four tiers. Which is correct? Keith D ( talk) 12:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I notice this article is on the 'main page' today. I think this is a shame as with its clearly biased approach ('Second City'? 'Capital Of The North'?) this article reads like a promotional flyer from the Manchester Tourist Board rather than an entry in an encyclopedia. 80.176.88.21 ( talk) 08:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Judging by the whole self-proclamatory tone of the article shouldn't we just refer to Manchester as The First City? From it's history, it's size, it's culture, it's people, it's visitors, it's business district, it's role in the Cold War, it's role in the invention of the computer and the atomic bomb, it's transport system, it's nightlife, the fact it's part of a conurbation, the fact a BBC Manchester poll with heavily loaded questions found some people thought it was The Second City, surely all of this means it's not just The Capital of The North but surely The Capital of Great Britain and all who sail in her? I once called it "The Best City Ever", can we include that in the article, preferably in the introduction? I also came up with a new formula for devising the size of a certain city, in Manchester's case by using some rather obscure statistics I have created a city of 10 million people. Please protect this article for all time, except of course for a few editors who constantly push POV but will not ever be wrong, can still edit it with pro-Manchester guff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.134.208 ( talk) 21:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
What is your problem with this article? It's an encyclopaedia article that is supposed to give an overall picture of the city. I've just looked at the article on New York City and to quote from the lead:
- It is a leading global city, exerting a powerful influence over worldwide commerce, finance, culture, and entertainment. The city is also an important center for international affairs, hosting the United Nations headquarters.
- Today, the city has many landmarks and neighborhoods that are world famous. The Statue of Liberty greeted millions of immigrants as they came to America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Wall Street, in Lower Manhattan, has been a dominant global financial center since World War II and is home to the New York Stock Exchange. The city has been home to several of the tallest buildings in the world, including the Empire State Building and the twin towers of the former World Trade Center.
- New York is the birthplace of many cultural movements, including the Harlem Renaissance in literature and visual art, abstract expressionism (also known as the New York School) in painting, and hip hop,[14] punk,[15] salsa, disco and Tin Pan Alley in music. It is the home of Broadway theater.
That 'Core Cities' reference isn't really notable. It is just the title of a study, not an established group that actually exists and does anything. ProfDEH ( talk) 08:14, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Who exactly does call Manchester the Capital of the North? A quick google search on "capital of the north" throws up more references to Leeds than Manchester. And why on earth is a little used nickname so heralded in the introduction in the first place? And why such a long list of population figures purely extracted to suggest that Manchester is a city that encompasses every town and village for miles around? Just state the figures for Manchester itself and possibly those for the Greater Moanchester metropolitan area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.191.223.74 ( talk) 11:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Having said all that I've just checked out the Leeds page and it appears Leeds has even more definitions of population size than Manchester, one figure being 2.9million!! I take it all back Manchester. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.191.223.74 (
talk) 11:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Good to see people going to the efforts of cleaning this page up at last - to have such a dubious biased page as featured article undermines the very integrity of Wikipedia and all that it stands for. In fact this paqe makes a great case study for how the ideals of Wikipedia can be corrupted and how solutions could be put in place to prevent it for the future.
Bravo to you guys, the article reads far better already, you're doing a great job! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.197.252 ( talk) 20:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Added reference to global city status as this seems to be a change from the 1998 roster (Manchester has moved from "Some" Evidence of world city formation in 2004 to Gamma status in 2008). Conscious however of notes above about city entries reading as if they are from the tourist board, I noted that the Global City status of other cities is mentioned in the opening paragraphs of entries for Barcelona, Frankfurt etc. The 2008 list was only posted in May 2009 and revised in the last week [9]. -- Mapmark ( talk) 00:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Three-revert rule - getting out of hand. Why not discuss the issue here, instead of just reverting eachother's edits? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 21:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I am very happy discussing alterations here and I'm happy to go with an agreement. The line that Majabi keeps reverting without any discussion is only two words that Joshii added. Majabi seems very keen to dampen down anything that places Manchester second only to London. Indeed a look at the comments on his contributions pages speaks volumes - "I should work for BCC" is probably the highlight and he's not wrong. He seems to edit the Manchester page simply to talk it down whilst hell bent on proving Birmingham is the second city. My view is that the additional two words that Joshii added did not weaken the article. Moreover I am just very wary that Majabi's intentions are not to make the Manchester article better but simply to weaken it. GRB1972 ( talk) 08:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Incidently, I couldn't care less! The fact is how it reads now Matthew/ Majabi or whoever else you go by is pretty much how it read after my initial update. I was simply of the opinion that Joshii's contribution did not detract from the article and I remain of that opinion, as I do about your general intention re. Manchester. Then again my point is probably entirely lost on you. GRB1972 ( talk) 14:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Can I just say as an outsider that the Second City thing WREAKS of Mancunians trying to "big up" their city. TAKE IT DOWN! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.222.156 ( talk) 17:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I see in the discussion archive there was questioning of the Roman history. I would like to know if people think the name Mancenion, the "place of tents", should be included and reference to the building of the first fort by the Brigantes, a century before the Romans. For this I am citing Wheeler in 1836 (Manchester: It's Political, Social and Commercial History, Ancient and Modern), who amongst others cites Hollingworth in 1646 (Mancuniensis; Or, an History of the Towne of Manchester, and what is Most Memorable Concerning it). Here is a modern example of reference to this original name, predating the Roman Mancunium: http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=791 Does anyone know more about this and if it is worth including please? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 02:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
The sources I have quoted are for the celtic name, which is different in meaning to the roman name, as it refers to the area and not the later fort. The latin name seems to have been invented by the Romans. There is a lot of early evidence for the name I have quoted as being the first, and nothing has yet been quoted that goes against this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC) The Romans Building a Fort at Mancenion: The building of the fort, to be found now in Manchester's Castlefield, by British slaves under Agricola - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Town_Hall http://www.yourdictionary.com/mancunian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC) The Romans Build the Fort at Mancenion (Mamuciam) - AD 80 http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/buildings/town-hall/madox-brown-murals.html Alexander Royle ( talk) 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I think I've been getting myself distracted by the additions by User:Anthony Appleyard, sorry about that. Alexander Royle, you want Mancenion mentioned in the article, which means the "place of tents". Hylton in A History of Manchester (2003) states that the name derives from the Celtic meaning a breast shaped hill on page 6. Unfortunately, the sources you've supplied are either very old or fail WP:RS. You also mentioned "the building of the first fort by the Brigantes, a century before the Romans". I have not come across anything mentioning a "fort", Celtic or otherwise, prior to the 79AD phase in Manchester. Paraphrased from page 181 of Gregory (2007), although there is no evidence of prehistoric settlement, there is evidence of activity in the area. A Neolithic scraper, two Mesolithic flints and a flint flake have been discovered, as well as a shard of late Bronze Age pottery; however these were mostly not found in situ. Do you have any sources refuting this? Nev1 ( talk) 20:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
When I return home after the weekend I will quote the sources on the pre-roman settlement and then fort, and about the name "Mancenion". Some online sources say things like "The place where Manchester is situated today was found by the Romans who built a fort from which there were roads in all directions (Blakeley). The Romans called the area Mamucium: meaning breast-shaped hill (Schofield 2003:16, Moss, wwwa). But there are also other spellings to be found: Mancunium, Mameceaster, Mamecestre, Mamcestre (Farrer & Brownbill). When the Romans left the country and the Saxons came along, they altered the name: Mam became Man and ceaster was the result of a twist from the Latin word castrum, meaning fort, army camp (Schofield et al 2003:16, Odenstedt 2000:71, McCrum et al 1992:52)." http://dspace.hh.se/dspace/handle/2082/2131 This is fine if you ignore the Brigantes. As the sources I have cited and other historians, painters etc called the pre Roman area Mancenion, and that is still the name for Manchester in Welsh, I don't see how the latin is a translation. These Celts are from York and Durham a century before the Romans, so not the very ancient times you quote about Nev. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently the Anglo Saxon chronicles state that in 921AD King Edward of Mercia recognised the name Mancenion for the city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I know these aren't great extra sources yet, but I'm just trying to prove it is recognised there was a name for Manchester before the Romans showed up, without my books etc to hand. "In the year 79 the town was conquered by Agricola, who changed its British name of Mancenion to MANCUNIUM" http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Gazetteer/M.htm "An early name for Manchester "Mancenion" is believed to have been taken from that of a Celtic settlement on the site, known as "the place of tents". When the Romans invaded England they called their new colony "Britannia". They built major cities like London and Chester. One of the principal Roman roads from Chester northward passed through Manchester, which was called by them "Mancunium". A part of this Roman road is still known as "Watling street". In AD 79 the Romans built a fort in Manchester..." http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:PD3g_Nvv_NgJ:www.ekg.gp.bw.schule.de/projekte/city_gb/manchester.htm+Mancenion&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=uk —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
In Britain, prehistory is anything before the Roman invasion, so when there is no evidence of prehistoric settlement, that means 100BC as well as the Bronze Age. There are certain inconsistencies, according to Gregory's reports on the excavations around the Roman fort (2007), there is no evidence of a settlement before the Romans arrived, and the Romans are generally regarded as having founded the first Manchester (Hylton [2003], Gregory [2007], Nevell [2008]) so there was no "town" for the Romans to conquer. If a reliable source could be found saying the Celts called the area Mancenion before the Roman arrived that'd be great, but it's unlikely as there is very little documentary evidence and it's not even certain if the area was controlled by a sub-tribe of the Brigantines or the Brigantines themselves. Nev1 ( talk) 22:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't expect to find evidence of the Brigands in the Roman fort. "MANCHESTER, ancient British name Mancenion, or Manceinion. This metropolis of the north can boast of the most remote antiquity. Its name would indicate a Celtic origin, for " man " is undoubtedly the W. man, a place ; but the meaning of the latter part of the name has given rise to some controversy. Dr. Whitaker says, after Baxter, that the word means " the place of tents*," but " cenion " in Welsh means " skins," and the secondary meaning of " tents " is purely a conjecture. In Spurrell's W. Dictionary the Celtic name is written Manceinion, and " ceinion " is the W. word for "ornaments" or "delicacies." It is scarcely possible to determine more than that the name is Celtic. In this instance, as in many others, the Saxon conquerors retained * Hist, of Manchester, vol. i. p. 5." http://www.archive.org/stream/transact185500philuoft/transact185500philuoft_djvu.txt You are ofc right about the ASC, sorry about that "þe he þær sæt gefaran Mameceaster on Norþhymbrum" "Brigantes who called it Mancenion" http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/S_MANCHESTER.HTM "the city appeared on the place of the former Celt settlement Mancenion" http://www.articlealley.com/article_50207_29.html "In 79 AD the Roman legions arrived in Mancenion, a place of tents" http://pac-its.psu.edu/pub/organization/education.abroad/Brochures/Manchester —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 23:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I think despite the fact that many historians of note over the centuries, and to this day, have referred to the original Celtic name of Manchester as Mancenion, and it remains in the Welsh language, there is insufficient evidence to be sure about it. However, it is almost certain that there was a Celtic name, and it does not look likely that the Roman version is a translation, but a similarly sounding renaming that had a different meaning based on their original presence in the area. Thanks for discussing. I'm glad the Brigante stronghold is mentioned, and if anyone feels "Mancenion" deserves a mention in the History Of page, I would think it is worthwhile. Alexander Royle ( talk) 01:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 12 |
I'm not very well established with this whole wikipedia thing so apologies if I'm placing this suggestion in the wrong place. Just thought I'd suggest to the editor of this article the addition of a link at the bottom of the page? A wiki for Manchester has just been launched called Manclopedia. There's not much on there at the moment but I suppose, as with every wiki, all these pojects start out slow; I just thought it was worth a mention. You can find it at www.manclopedia.co.uk [1] (Good name as well.) Wikinekkid ( talk) 12:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I was working in the Beetham Tower today and took a few shots from the top. If anyone would like to use them, let me know and I'll put them in wiki commons.
http://flickr.com/photos/soundman/2764939261/ - there are others in my profile besides that. Parrot of Doom ( talk) 15:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There are no citations to back up 'Capital of the North'. This term should be deleted immediately as the term is used to refer to both Leeds and Manchester. Currently, putting that phrase there sparks dispute, particularly when no-one in the general public refers to any city as the Capital of the North. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.243.1 ( talk) 06:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Hey guys, just writing to find something out and I'm not very good on wikipedia so I thought this was the best way of asking. How is the Metro population of Manchester 4,209,132? Where is the official reference for that please?
-- Tubs uk ( talk) 15:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll admit I'm not from Manchester, but I am from the North. I am also aware that there isn't a particular capital of the North. Leeds is equally fitting to be the capital of the North, as is Sheffield. In the nicest way possible, Manchester doesn't really have a right to say it is. No city does until it is officially named as such. If you have some sort of official reference for it can you please show me? -- Tubs uk ( talk) 15:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
You've had long enough to respond to me now. These issues will be reported unless someone shows me reliable evidence of the Metro Population and the Capital of the North. -- Tubs uk ( talk) 22:33, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
At 167k and over a year of talking, should much of this page not be archived? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 11:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
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"Manchester has the second largest urban zone in the UK and the fourteenth most populated in Europe."
This sentence has a link in it to a page that lists Manchester as the 16th most populated urban zone in Europe. Is there another source on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.208.60 ( talk) 21:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
That is exactly right. When I initially added the link Manchester was 14th on the list but as Mr Stephen asserts, since then the two Turkish cities have been added to the list. It is debateable whether Ankara is in Europe, Istanbul may be but I'm not sure. Perhaps just saying Manhcester is the 14th most populated urban zone in the EU might resolve it? GRB1972 ( talk) 18:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The 'LUZ' figure is ridiculous and should be removed, as it is simply another way to use a 'Greater Manchester' figure for 'Manchester', and bolster the cities population vs other cities in the UK. If you visit List_of_United_Kingdom_cities_by_population, which plainly lists the population of the UK's major cities, you will see that Manchester is 9th largest. The introduction should accurately show the population of the city, not use a figure which is purely promotional, and clearly refers more to Greater Manchester than Manchester. This is especially important considering this article is a FA. 78.109.182.8 ( talk) 15:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
This point has been debated at length before but in addition to the comments by Jza84, LUZs are defined by the Eurostat, the EU's own statistical agency, a credible and oft. referred to statistical body. They were created in an effort to harmonise definitions of urbanisation in the European Union and in countries outside the European Union (such as Turkey). These definitions were agreed between Eurostat and the National Statistics Offices of the different countries of the European Union at the occasion of the European Commission's Urban Audit of 2004. Populations given by them are not necessarily just based on the metropolitan data e.g Birmingham has an LUZ population of 2.35m and an area of 1598km2 where as the West Midlands has 2.6m and an area of 902 km2. GRB1972 ( talk) 17:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
It is worded in a way to make it seem like the urban zone is all Manchester. 'Manchester has the second largest...' - but the area is a 'LUZ' by definition (an urban zone and not just Manchester). Should this not be replaced with something along the lines of 'Manchester is the 9th largest city in the UK'. Surely this is a more accurate statement, as nobody considers Salford etc to be part of the city of Manchester? It seems like this article only mentions the LUZ because it makes Manchester the second largest after London, reinforcing the long debate about its second city status? 78.109.182.8 ( talk) 01:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The article already states that the popluation of the city of Manchester is 458,100 much smaller than that of the city of Birmingham so relax! There is a link to verify all the data regarding LUZs. Other cities on Wikipedia e.g New York City (which has FA status), Atlanta, Barcelona etc provide a city proper population and that of the wider area so this is not inconsistent with Wikipedia practise. I suspect had Birmingham a larger LUZ you would be less concerned. GRB1972 ( talk) 08:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You brought up the second city argument Fingerpuppet didn't - he simply validated the point I had made. Solid reasons have been given above why the introduction to the article reads as it does. The editors of this page and all others relating to Greater Manchester work tirelessly to maintain high standards and work entirely within Wikipedia guidelines which is why I am proud to be a member of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Greater Manchester. Despite your concerns I have every confidence that far from being defensive - contributors to Manchester and its related articles will continue to question, and where we are able to, improve all articles. GRB1972 ( talk) 12:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The thing is, there is little consistency to what figures are used. If all articles used 'LUZ' figures and it was widely regarded as a 'standard' then it would be fine, and most people would probably accept Manchester is bigger. I just think that the wording is very confusing, and makes it seem like the City of Manchester itself is the second largest and not the 'urban zone' extension which is not solely Manchester. Also, the population ranking in the infobox is somewhat hidden, whilst the LUZ ranking is given pride of place in the introduction. Surely someone can see where I'm coming from here? It just seems like only promotional figures are used.
To illustrate my point: Why is Manchester's population stated as 458,100, but not stated to be the 9th biggest city, when the LUZ is stated simply as 'second largest', and not quantified (2,539,100)?
P.S. it's probably best to keep Birmingham out of this, and I only mentioned the second city status in relation to London. 78.109.182.8 ( talk) 13:15, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You only mentioned the second city status in relation to London? London is significantly bigger and inarguably more important than all other British cities so I'm not sure why Manchester's LUZ is of any concern to London's position. The second city debate should and does take place elsewhere. I think we are in danger of going round in circles here - despite your concerns to the contrary, Manchester has FA status and with good reason - the article is very well written, verified and clear. GRB1972 ( talk) 13:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
A glance at the comments above shows that actually it was you who brought it up. I have explained above why the intro to this article reads as it does and my previous comments more than answer your questions. You are absolutely correct that FA articles are not always perfect and your comments on this article and any other are very welcome, respectfully though I suspect we just won't agree. GRB1972 ( talk) 15:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so I'm a little behind with this (hey, I've been away for a year!)...
Well done on the Featured Article status. This article came a long was from when I reviewed it for GA Status over a year ago. :) Pursey Talk | Contribs 21:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Due to my previous attempt and failure, as it was deleted, to create a page dedicated to the Manc accent I have tried again and kept it short, sweet and simple and have references. This time instead of criticising it could people contribute to it as the accent of Manchester is just as distinctive and famous as the Cockney, Scouse and Geordie accents and I believe the accent should have a seperate page. I am no Wikipedia expert so please if people could contribute it and give me any pointers it would be very much appreciated. Peace!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salfordsredarmy ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Someone might like to add to the text Manchester's 36 namesakes on two continents. "London, which has spread to 46 settlements on six continents, is second on the list, followed by Oxford (41 on three continents) and Manchester (36 on two continents). Bristol is fifth, equal to Wellington, with 35." (Jack Malvern. Richmond, in Surrey, is the most widely copied British place name worldwide, timesonline 2008-12-29. The original byline for the article in The Times of the same day was "The 55 corners of foreign fields that will be for ever ... Richmond" (page 9). Cites The Times Universal Atlas of the World.) PBS ( talk) 09:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I've been accused of being inconsistent in being a member of the GM project, yet not correcting the wording of the second sentence, even though I changed it on Leeds. The accusation is silly, because membership of a project does not imply that one agrees with or monitors every article in that project, but the issue is perhaps worth raising here. The figures given in the second sentence are for an estimated population size, and not a figure arrived at, however imperfectly, by means of a census. Is there any use in qualifying the figure in the second sentence at all, so that instead of reading "It has a population of 458,100..." it reads something like "It was estimated to have a population of 458,100 in 2007...", because it is useful to distinguish in the text between the two different kinds of methods and sources used to arrive at the figures for 2001 and 2007? DDStretch (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
(<-) User:Fingerpuppet is fantastic with demographic statistics for the UK, might be worth giving him a nudge? -- Jza84 | Talk 20:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm a tiny bit concerned that although it is perhaps admirable to have unprotected the Manchester article (after its long spell of semi-protection), the fresh wave of edits have added nothing of value to the page, with pretty much every single ip edit having been an unfavourable one. Every day this article is vandalised. Going forwards, what do we envisage happening here? -- Jza84 | Talk 13:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Jza84, you said above "We're getting ip edits distrupting the long standing consensus about 2nd city status". This is not a valid reason for semi-protection. I take your point about the earlier vandalism, but in recent days it has not been excessive. My main point is, however, that as an interested admin editor you should not be protecting this article. The cicumstances of the protection leave a lot to be desired. What are you going to do about it?
LevenBoy (
talk) 18:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Is this why I can't edit this page? It's crazy to stop the fun of editing for everyone based on a few vandals, isn't this against wiki's policy. I can understand them protecting George W Bush/Tony Blair, but protecting the page over the 2nd city status which is debatable, I don't agree it should be lifted like now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ladydiesel ( talk • contribs) 08:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) Once again: the page was not protected because of the second city dispute. If you want to talk about the second city, open a new section here; you will be referred back to long-closed discussions that led to the current position. (If you really want to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the debate, go and fix Second city of the United Kingdom) You will find that Arbcom have no appetite for this trivia. The first stage in dispute resolution is discussion here, and that stage has a long way to go yet. Mr Stephen ( talk) 09:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes I am aware that Arbcom will look at this in whatever way they want, but I would still support any pursue of getting this protection lifted, Is it going to be lifted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.37.220.150 ( talk) 13:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I personally would feel a lot better if the decision to protect this article wasn't made by someone who is very much actively involved in this article. Someone without an interest in it, so if I don't see any satisfaction from here on in, leaves me with no option. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mancunianboy (
talk •
contribs) 13:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
This article should be unprotected, I get the general feeling most average users would like to see it unprotected now, just under 3 months is plane stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.142.47 ( talk) 19:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
as a US resident, i was amazed, on being driven on the highway thru the center of manchester, that they have movable dividers that change the lanes for rush hour, so you have diff lanes going different directions depending on the time of day seemed insanely dangerous, to swithch lanes like that, but this must be my parochial viewpoint. Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 13:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi - I was reading this article via the main page and I'm not sure about the reference to having the most consulates in the UK. VisitScotland ( http://www.visitscotland.com/guide/travel/library/embassies-consulates) lists 31 consulates in Edinburgh as opposed to the 28 or 29 (depending if France is counted once or twice) listed on the MCA site cited in the article. Does the book cited give any more details that would protect Manchester's crown? Dalliance ( talk) 13:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Nothing yet on the visual arts etc. The main galleries are Manchester City Art Gallery and the Whitworth Art Gallery. Salford Quays has the Lowry Centre (which does have a few works by LS Lowry even if that doesn't fill the building) and the eccentric Imperial War Museum North by architect Daniel Libeskind. Also in Salford, the Salford Museum and Art Gallery. ProfDEH ( talk) 07:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Idle thought here, but is it worth mentioning the link between Manchester and Bees, as a symbol of industry? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 22:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
A quick glance reveals a few faulty references in this article:
Hi- I have mentioned this before but the IPA for Manchester is incorrect. It would only be pronounced with /r/ at the end by someone with say, a west country accent. It's been changed before but looks like someone's changed it back to the incorrect version again. Any chance someone could correct this? Cheers. Jetsetradio ( talk) 17:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I've studied phonetics as part of my degree and there's a big difference between [ə] and [əɹ], but I see your point- best to keep things simple. -- Jetsetradio ( talk) 12:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be a conflict between the information specified in the Governance section and the related Politics in Manchester article. The section indicates there are three tiers of government while the other article states there are four tiers. Which is correct? Keith D ( talk) 12:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I notice this article is on the 'main page' today. I think this is a shame as with its clearly biased approach ('Second City'? 'Capital Of The North'?) this article reads like a promotional flyer from the Manchester Tourist Board rather than an entry in an encyclopedia. 80.176.88.21 ( talk) 08:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Judging by the whole self-proclamatory tone of the article shouldn't we just refer to Manchester as The First City? From it's history, it's size, it's culture, it's people, it's visitors, it's business district, it's role in the Cold War, it's role in the invention of the computer and the atomic bomb, it's transport system, it's nightlife, the fact it's part of a conurbation, the fact a BBC Manchester poll with heavily loaded questions found some people thought it was The Second City, surely all of this means it's not just The Capital of The North but surely The Capital of Great Britain and all who sail in her? I once called it "The Best City Ever", can we include that in the article, preferably in the introduction? I also came up with a new formula for devising the size of a certain city, in Manchester's case by using some rather obscure statistics I have created a city of 10 million people. Please protect this article for all time, except of course for a few editors who constantly push POV but will not ever be wrong, can still edit it with pro-Manchester guff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.134.208 ( talk) 21:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
What is your problem with this article? It's an encyclopaedia article that is supposed to give an overall picture of the city. I've just looked at the article on New York City and to quote from the lead:
- It is a leading global city, exerting a powerful influence over worldwide commerce, finance, culture, and entertainment. The city is also an important center for international affairs, hosting the United Nations headquarters.
- Today, the city has many landmarks and neighborhoods that are world famous. The Statue of Liberty greeted millions of immigrants as they came to America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Wall Street, in Lower Manhattan, has been a dominant global financial center since World War II and is home to the New York Stock Exchange. The city has been home to several of the tallest buildings in the world, including the Empire State Building and the twin towers of the former World Trade Center.
- New York is the birthplace of many cultural movements, including the Harlem Renaissance in literature and visual art, abstract expressionism (also known as the New York School) in painting, and hip hop,[14] punk,[15] salsa, disco and Tin Pan Alley in music. It is the home of Broadway theater.
That 'Core Cities' reference isn't really notable. It is just the title of a study, not an established group that actually exists and does anything. ProfDEH ( talk) 08:14, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Who exactly does call Manchester the Capital of the North? A quick google search on "capital of the north" throws up more references to Leeds than Manchester. And why on earth is a little used nickname so heralded in the introduction in the first place? And why such a long list of population figures purely extracted to suggest that Manchester is a city that encompasses every town and village for miles around? Just state the figures for Manchester itself and possibly those for the Greater Moanchester metropolitan area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.191.223.74 ( talk) 11:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Having said all that I've just checked out the Leeds page and it appears Leeds has even more definitions of population size than Manchester, one figure being 2.9million!! I take it all back Manchester. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.191.223.74 (
talk) 11:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Good to see people going to the efforts of cleaning this page up at last - to have such a dubious biased page as featured article undermines the very integrity of Wikipedia and all that it stands for. In fact this paqe makes a great case study for how the ideals of Wikipedia can be corrupted and how solutions could be put in place to prevent it for the future.
Bravo to you guys, the article reads far better already, you're doing a great job! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.197.252 ( talk) 20:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Added reference to global city status as this seems to be a change from the 1998 roster (Manchester has moved from "Some" Evidence of world city formation in 2004 to Gamma status in 2008). Conscious however of notes above about city entries reading as if they are from the tourist board, I noted that the Global City status of other cities is mentioned in the opening paragraphs of entries for Barcelona, Frankfurt etc. The 2008 list was only posted in May 2009 and revised in the last week [9]. -- Mapmark ( talk) 00:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Three-revert rule - getting out of hand. Why not discuss the issue here, instead of just reverting eachother's edits? Parrot of Doom ( talk) 21:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I am very happy discussing alterations here and I'm happy to go with an agreement. The line that Majabi keeps reverting without any discussion is only two words that Joshii added. Majabi seems very keen to dampen down anything that places Manchester second only to London. Indeed a look at the comments on his contributions pages speaks volumes - "I should work for BCC" is probably the highlight and he's not wrong. He seems to edit the Manchester page simply to talk it down whilst hell bent on proving Birmingham is the second city. My view is that the additional two words that Joshii added did not weaken the article. Moreover I am just very wary that Majabi's intentions are not to make the Manchester article better but simply to weaken it. GRB1972 ( talk) 08:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Incidently, I couldn't care less! The fact is how it reads now Matthew/ Majabi or whoever else you go by is pretty much how it read after my initial update. I was simply of the opinion that Joshii's contribution did not detract from the article and I remain of that opinion, as I do about your general intention re. Manchester. Then again my point is probably entirely lost on you. GRB1972 ( talk) 14:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Can I just say as an outsider that the Second City thing WREAKS of Mancunians trying to "big up" their city. TAKE IT DOWN! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.222.156 ( talk) 17:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I see in the discussion archive there was questioning of the Roman history. I would like to know if people think the name Mancenion, the "place of tents", should be included and reference to the building of the first fort by the Brigantes, a century before the Romans. For this I am citing Wheeler in 1836 (Manchester: It's Political, Social and Commercial History, Ancient and Modern), who amongst others cites Hollingworth in 1646 (Mancuniensis; Or, an History of the Towne of Manchester, and what is Most Memorable Concerning it). Here is a modern example of reference to this original name, predating the Roman Mancunium: http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=791 Does anyone know more about this and if it is worth including please? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 02:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
The sources I have quoted are for the celtic name, which is different in meaning to the roman name, as it refers to the area and not the later fort. The latin name seems to have been invented by the Romans. There is a lot of early evidence for the name I have quoted as being the first, and nothing has yet been quoted that goes against this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 19:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC) The Romans Building a Fort at Mancenion: The building of the fort, to be found now in Manchester's Castlefield, by British slaves under Agricola - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Town_Hall http://www.yourdictionary.com/mancunian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC) The Romans Build the Fort at Mancenion (Mamuciam) - AD 80 http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/buildings/town-hall/madox-brown-murals.html Alexander Royle ( talk) 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I think I've been getting myself distracted by the additions by User:Anthony Appleyard, sorry about that. Alexander Royle, you want Mancenion mentioned in the article, which means the "place of tents". Hylton in A History of Manchester (2003) states that the name derives from the Celtic meaning a breast shaped hill on page 6. Unfortunately, the sources you've supplied are either very old or fail WP:RS. You also mentioned "the building of the first fort by the Brigantes, a century before the Romans". I have not come across anything mentioning a "fort", Celtic or otherwise, prior to the 79AD phase in Manchester. Paraphrased from page 181 of Gregory (2007), although there is no evidence of prehistoric settlement, there is evidence of activity in the area. A Neolithic scraper, two Mesolithic flints and a flint flake have been discovered, as well as a shard of late Bronze Age pottery; however these were mostly not found in situ. Do you have any sources refuting this? Nev1 ( talk) 20:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
When I return home after the weekend I will quote the sources on the pre-roman settlement and then fort, and about the name "Mancenion". Some online sources say things like "The place where Manchester is situated today was found by the Romans who built a fort from which there were roads in all directions (Blakeley). The Romans called the area Mamucium: meaning breast-shaped hill (Schofield 2003:16, Moss, wwwa). But there are also other spellings to be found: Mancunium, Mameceaster, Mamecestre, Mamcestre (Farrer & Brownbill). When the Romans left the country and the Saxons came along, they altered the name: Mam became Man and ceaster was the result of a twist from the Latin word castrum, meaning fort, army camp (Schofield et al 2003:16, Odenstedt 2000:71, McCrum et al 1992:52)." http://dspace.hh.se/dspace/handle/2082/2131 This is fine if you ignore the Brigantes. As the sources I have cited and other historians, painters etc called the pre Roman area Mancenion, and that is still the name for Manchester in Welsh, I don't see how the latin is a translation. These Celts are from York and Durham a century before the Romans, so not the very ancient times you quote about Nev. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparently the Anglo Saxon chronicles state that in 921AD King Edward of Mercia recognised the name Mancenion for the city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I know these aren't great extra sources yet, but I'm just trying to prove it is recognised there was a name for Manchester before the Romans showed up, without my books etc to hand. "In the year 79 the town was conquered by Agricola, who changed its British name of Mancenion to MANCUNIUM" http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Gazetteer/M.htm "An early name for Manchester "Mancenion" is believed to have been taken from that of a Celtic settlement on the site, known as "the place of tents". When the Romans invaded England they called their new colony "Britannia". They built major cities like London and Chester. One of the principal Roman roads from Chester northward passed through Manchester, which was called by them "Mancunium". A part of this Roman road is still known as "Watling street". In AD 79 the Romans built a fort in Manchester..." http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:PD3g_Nvv_NgJ:www.ekg.gp.bw.schule.de/projekte/city_gb/manchester.htm+Mancenion&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=uk —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
In Britain, prehistory is anything before the Roman invasion, so when there is no evidence of prehistoric settlement, that means 100BC as well as the Bronze Age. There are certain inconsistencies, according to Gregory's reports on the excavations around the Roman fort (2007), there is no evidence of a settlement before the Romans arrived, and the Romans are generally regarded as having founded the first Manchester (Hylton [2003], Gregory [2007], Nevell [2008]) so there was no "town" for the Romans to conquer. If a reliable source could be found saying the Celts called the area Mancenion before the Roman arrived that'd be great, but it's unlikely as there is very little documentary evidence and it's not even certain if the area was controlled by a sub-tribe of the Brigantines or the Brigantines themselves. Nev1 ( talk) 22:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't expect to find evidence of the Brigands in the Roman fort. "MANCHESTER, ancient British name Mancenion, or Manceinion. This metropolis of the north can boast of the most remote antiquity. Its name would indicate a Celtic origin, for " man " is undoubtedly the W. man, a place ; but the meaning of the latter part of the name has given rise to some controversy. Dr. Whitaker says, after Baxter, that the word means " the place of tents*," but " cenion " in Welsh means " skins," and the secondary meaning of " tents " is purely a conjecture. In Spurrell's W. Dictionary the Celtic name is written Manceinion, and " ceinion " is the W. word for "ornaments" or "delicacies." It is scarcely possible to determine more than that the name is Celtic. In this instance, as in many others, the Saxon conquerors retained * Hist, of Manchester, vol. i. p. 5." http://www.archive.org/stream/transact185500philuoft/transact185500philuoft_djvu.txt You are ofc right about the ASC, sorry about that "þe he þær sæt gefaran Mameceaster on Norþhymbrum" "Brigantes who called it Mancenion" http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/S_MANCHESTER.HTM "the city appeared on the place of the former Celt settlement Mancenion" http://www.articlealley.com/article_50207_29.html "In 79 AD the Roman legions arrived in Mancenion, a place of tents" http://pac-its.psu.edu/pub/organization/education.abroad/Brochures/Manchester —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle ( talk • contribs) 23:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I think despite the fact that many historians of note over the centuries, and to this day, have referred to the original Celtic name of Manchester as Mancenion, and it remains in the Welsh language, there is insufficient evidence to be sure about it. However, it is almost certain that there was a Celtic name, and it does not look likely that the Roman version is a translation, but a similarly sounding renaming that had a different meaning based on their original presence in the area. Thanks for discussing. I'm glad the Brigante stronghold is mentioned, and if anyone feels "Mancenion" deserves a mention in the History Of page, I would think it is worthwhile. Alexander Royle ( talk) 01:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)