This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Are there any specific regional words used in this dialect? PMK1 ( talk) 09:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I've reworked the article a bit, especially the intro. Worded the differences between Bg/Mak less as a dichotomy of facts and more as a difference of perspectives, which it is. I've also reinserted the map. Sure, it's sort of one-sided by explicitly adopting the one perspective rather than the other, but that can be handled by the caption; it's the best we have, and it's the only thing that we can currently show the outside reader to give them an idea of where this f...ing thing lies. Feel free to make a second map showing it also in the context of the Bulgarian dialect divisions. Calls to change the map are misguided, I think, because this map does actually reflect its sources correctly. Yes, the sources do classify the Blagoevgrad parts as part of Macedonian, like it or not, that is one notable viewpoint, so we have no business simple to deny it, as VMORO has tried to do. Apart from that, there was quite a bit of decent material in the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
1) Factual misrepresentation - you claim "the Bulgarians view the eastern part of the dialect as Bulgarian whereas the Macedonians view the whole dialect as Macedonian", let me remind you:
2) Deletion of intenational references - Trudgill and Schmieger [1] [2] (evidently because you don't like them). POV Pushing
3) The current international opinion is that the border between BG and MK runs along the border (the two references above) - which replaces the cold-war view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Macedonian - and which in turn replaces the pre-WW2 view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Bulgarian. VMORO 17:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
References
This is indeed the last time I ask you politely to remove and correct the map (not only from this page but from all pages) and to stop pushing disguised POV by "viewed from Macedonian perspective" and the like. Let me remind you because you seem to forget:
Considering the above, we will either follow NPOV and will regard the dialects in Pirin Macedonia as Bulgarian and in RoM and most of Greek Macedonia as Macedonian, which means:
OR We can continue pushing POV but this time it will not be only who will be pushing it, it will also be me. If you, based on Macedonian claims and Friedman's cold-war theses can publish maps and call internationally recognized Bulgarian dialects disputed, then I, based on Bulgarian claims, pre-WW2 conceptions and other information like Larousse's for example, can do the same. This will mean:
I prefer compromise (because it means less work for me) but I can live with the other option, as well. Irredentism may seem like a fun game to play but it is actually very dangerous and the rocks you throw at others most often hit your own head. Contact me on my talk page if you need more info. I am travelling until Thursday so I probably won't reply until then but I will start re-working all articles on Friday. VMORO 20:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I must be stupid or something, since I see the word BULGARIAN pasted across Pirin. Could somebody please explain what that word means? Not sure, but I think it's classifying Pirin, as opposed to Maleševo, as Bulgarian. I'm probably wrong though, since I'm nowhere near as smart or neutral as user:VMORO. I should probably kill myself since I'll never be a great pure Bulgarian like him, and I don't exist anyway. Balkan Fever 04:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to take the blatant POV pushing by VMORO seriously. I don't feel the need to address anything that he wrote, because it's all bullshit. And before you accuse me of being uncivil, Laveol, think about it. He falsified sources. He thinks he's 100% neutral. He has vowed to keep pushing this Bulgarian fringe view, and has recruited this guy Bozhinov now. You could complain about "incivility" from me, but what VMORO has been doing is far worse. Stop trying to spin this. Balkan Fever 12:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Sussex & Cubblerley (see ref. in doc.):
You yourself have agreed with Trudgill and Schmieger. Who is lying and who is falsifying and making things up:-)) It ain't me, that's certain:-))) I demand an explanation about the erasal of references. VMORO 23:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Are there any specific regional words used in this dialect? PMK1 ( talk) 09:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I've reworked the article a bit, especially the intro. Worded the differences between Bg/Mak less as a dichotomy of facts and more as a difference of perspectives, which it is. I've also reinserted the map. Sure, it's sort of one-sided by explicitly adopting the one perspective rather than the other, but that can be handled by the caption; it's the best we have, and it's the only thing that we can currently show the outside reader to give them an idea of where this f...ing thing lies. Feel free to make a second map showing it also in the context of the Bulgarian dialect divisions. Calls to change the map are misguided, I think, because this map does actually reflect its sources correctly. Yes, the sources do classify the Blagoevgrad parts as part of Macedonian, like it or not, that is one notable viewpoint, so we have no business simple to deny it, as VMORO has tried to do. Apart from that, there was quite a bit of decent material in the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
1) Factual misrepresentation - you claim "the Bulgarians view the eastern part of the dialect as Bulgarian whereas the Macedonians view the whole dialect as Macedonian", let me remind you:
2) Deletion of intenational references - Trudgill and Schmieger [1] [2] (evidently because you don't like them). POV Pushing
3) The current international opinion is that the border between BG and MK runs along the border (the two references above) - which replaces the cold-war view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Macedonian - and which in turn replaces the pre-WW2 view that all Slavic dialects in Macedonia are Bulgarian. VMORO 17:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
References
This is indeed the last time I ask you politely to remove and correct the map (not only from this page but from all pages) and to stop pushing disguised POV by "viewed from Macedonian perspective" and the like. Let me remind you because you seem to forget:
Considering the above, we will either follow NPOV and will regard the dialects in Pirin Macedonia as Bulgarian and in RoM and most of Greek Macedonia as Macedonian, which means:
OR We can continue pushing POV but this time it will not be only who will be pushing it, it will also be me. If you, based on Macedonian claims and Friedman's cold-war theses can publish maps and call internationally recognized Bulgarian dialects disputed, then I, based on Bulgarian claims, pre-WW2 conceptions and other information like Larousse's for example, can do the same. This will mean:
I prefer compromise (because it means less work for me) but I can live with the other option, as well. Irredentism may seem like a fun game to play but it is actually very dangerous and the rocks you throw at others most often hit your own head. Contact me on my talk page if you need more info. I am travelling until Thursday so I probably won't reply until then but I will start re-working all articles on Friday. VMORO 20:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I must be stupid or something, since I see the word BULGARIAN pasted across Pirin. Could somebody please explain what that word means? Not sure, but I think it's classifying Pirin, as opposed to Maleševo, as Bulgarian. I'm probably wrong though, since I'm nowhere near as smart or neutral as user:VMORO. I should probably kill myself since I'll never be a great pure Bulgarian like him, and I don't exist anyway. Balkan Fever 04:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to take the blatant POV pushing by VMORO seriously. I don't feel the need to address anything that he wrote, because it's all bullshit. And before you accuse me of being uncivil, Laveol, think about it. He falsified sources. He thinks he's 100% neutral. He has vowed to keep pushing this Bulgarian fringe view, and has recruited this guy Bozhinov now. You could complain about "incivility" from me, but what VMORO has been doing is far worse. Stop trying to spin this. Balkan Fever 12:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Sussex & Cubblerley (see ref. in doc.):
You yourself have agreed with Trudgill and Schmieger. Who is lying and who is falsifying and making things up:-)) It ain't me, that's certain:-))) I demand an explanation about the erasal of references. VMORO 23:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)