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I am trying to learn why he left, especially why there was apparently such rancor against his leaving. These sentences are not helping me: After he left the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X began to articulate his own views. During the final year of his life, his philosophy was flexible, and it is difficult to categorize his views on some subjects. Some of the themes to which Malcolm X frequently returned in his speeches demonstrate a relative consistency of thought. This strikes me as obfuscation, intentional or otherwise. Do we know what aspects of Nation teachings he rejected? Rumiton ( talk) 14:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I have opened a RSN case on the Bruce Perry Book as it smells funny to me It can be found here Weaponbb7 ( talk) 04:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The Autobiography of Malcolm X, Chapter 17, apparently tells us that King Faisal lent him a car to do his Hajj with. Did this happen without their meeting? (Just asking.) Rumiton ( talk) 09:11, 12 August 2010 This is the link again: (UTC) http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/malcolmx/section8.rhtml Rumiton ( talk) 10:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I think the current lede image is not the best image available. The current shot is up his nose, and not a good image for the lede IMHO, though it works well with the gunshot holes image below. I would like to see if anybody else thinks the one with him looking to his right, and seated is better for the lede. — GabeMc ( talk) 04:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Arabic is read from right-to-left. Even so the way the name is written in Arabic does not match how it's been written here in English even if you read the Arabic backwards. The Arabic reads: الشباز الحاجّ مالك (=El-Shabazz El-Hajj Malik) where as the English says it is "El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz" (= الحاجّ مالك الشباز). After meddling with the page a bit I've come to the conclusion it's a problem with the line break that arises depending on the size of the window. Decreasing and Increasing the size of the window I've found that the order of the names are correct at a certain width, but wrong at others. I don't write Arabic script on the computer so I'm not sure how to fix this. Perhaps some other editor knows what to do. Rlinfinity ( talk) 16:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
I think that this was the most important speech he ever made when speaking about the house-negroes and the field-negroes. Why do we not integrate it in the article or at least link to the speech? -- 188.46.45.30 ( talk) 22:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The speech is important enough that it has its own article. See Message to the Grass Roots. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 08:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Hi. There are a number of things about the House Negro - Field Negro speech that are interesting. Firstly, the great film of it is now no longer on youtube. A shame. You can at least see the reactions of people as he moves them from anger to humour and back again like a master. Secondly, the latest time I've seen the speech (he made it frequently) was 4th Feb 1965.... Can this be true? I'd love to know because by this time he'd had his damascene conversion and in that speech he's extemely nasty about non-violence practitioners.. (CORE, SNCC et al were extremely tough and brave young people - how he could equate MLK and them as traitors is breathtakingly awful...I'd therefore be extremely grateful if anyone could tell me the last time he made the speech..Imagine where he could have led SNCC, Stokely and the Black Panthers if he hadn't been ASSASSINATED...? 1969 with MLK & him alive. Lord. Philthegeordie@hotmail.co.uk for any definitive times for the last FN/HN speech. Much appreciated.
{{edit semi-protected}}
Noormubarak (
talk) 12:40, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
it is mentioned in Malxom X biography that during his youth, he was involved in sex with men for money. this is totally a lie. out of respect for a man who died fighting for morals and human values, remove this disgusting unrelevent and misleading point.
I'm going to trim back the Further reading section a little. For the most part, I'll be removing books that aren't particularly useful: books I wouldn't consider using as sources, books I wouldn't recommend to a friend who wanted to know more about Malcolm X, etc.
If I remove a book that you think shouldn't have been removed, please don't take it personally. Put it back, but please leave a little explanation here why you think it's an important book to include.
I recommend editors read WP:Further reading, which is just a proposal at this stage but which has, in my view, some good ideas about what sorts of books do and don't belong in the "Further reading" section of an article. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 08:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
please add this famous photo, File:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif Malcolm X holding an M1 Carbine and pulling back the curtains to peer out of a window. A similar image first appeared in Ebony magazine.
File:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I changed the lead to reflect the fact more clearly that Malcolm X disavowed his time with the Nation of Islam. He was a spokesperson for them but when he was free of them he called himself foolish and his time with them 12 years wasted. So who was Time's most influential man? The front man preaching the views of the Nation of Islam or the free man who was traveling the world to find himself. Hopefully anyone trying to get at his philosophy will clearly understand that he himself repudiated his speeches while with the Nation of Islam. Too important not to mention in some way in the lead. Glennconti ( talk) 05:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
I have proposed a new and different change to the lead as follows:
"However, Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime and he later disavowed racism.".
If there are no dissenting comments I will be so bold as to make this change myself after a period of time. Glennconti ( talk) 23:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the lead currently says:
To his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans.[6] His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence.[7][8][9][10][11] He has been called one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history,[12][13][14]
I would like it to say:
To his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans.[6] His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence.[7][8][9][10][11] However, Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his life time and he later disavowed racism. He has been called one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history,[12][13][14]
So as not to be redundant in the lead the "and he later disavowed racism" bit is a movement from a subsequent paragraph in the lead. Glennconti ( talk) 12:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
No one wishes to make a counter proposal, so I will propose a new change in hopes that it will achieve consensus. How about: Regardless of his admirers and his critics, the fact remains that Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime. In this way, we have altered the conjunction and don't even mention the possibility that his position on racism may or may not have changed. This should satisfy both Malik S. and Halaqah. If I get no feedback after a period of time I will assume this change is acceptable by all parties. Glennconti ( talk) 17:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
OK, I had a go. There is still a lot of disjointedness in the lede, and too many refs which I think should have stayed in the main body. But it's a start. Rumiton ( talk) 10:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
This rather clumsy title now appears 60 times in the article. I tried to initialise it (NOI) but that was reverted. Any other ideas how this might be streamlined? Rumiton ( talk) 12:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Is there a difference between color and tone? Rumiton ( talk) 10:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
The article states in the first sentence that he was also known as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz but then never elaborates. When did he take this name? Did he use it in all contexts? Of course, any additional information about its significance and why he used it would be nice, but at a minimum the date should be reported. JamesMLane t c 23:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
According to [ [3]] this article is currently averaging 9214 looks per day. Take bows, editors. Rumiton ( talk) 14:13, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
They called her crazy for rejecting free pork because she wants to adhere to Seventh Day Adventist dietary restrictions. So whenever the state sent food commodities to her home she would not serve the pork. The state used that against her said that she was not providing her kids with proper nutritional guidelines. So they removed them out of the home and put her in a psych ward. Until she was released to Malcolm and his siblings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.102.247.186 ( talk) 04:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I think his bisexuality should be added to the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/books/malcolm-x-biographer-dies-on-eve-of-publication-of-redefining-work.html?hp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.187.183 ( talk) 04:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
However, it adds the line "No other biographers have written about such sexual encounters.[38][39]" The article mentioned above provides a second credible source. That line should now be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.62.134 ( talk) 18:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
This is controversial, with no concrete evidence, should it not state; "It is thought by some that Little occasionally engaged in sex with other men, usually for money. This is highly debated ." Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/19/manning_marables_controversial_new_biography_refuels —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Withoutillusions (
talk •
contribs) 02:18, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
The article refers to the claims of bisexual behavior as absolute fact, but 'circumstancial evidence' in two biographies is hardly proof. This is especially true when we consider the fact that the sexual allegations do not appear in any of the other dozens of books and articles written about Malcolm X. More importantly, X's own autobiography contradicts one of the alleged incidents of bisexual behavior, which X attributes to his partner-in-crime Rudy. Think of it this way: multiple books about JFK (and RFK) allege that either or both men had affairs with Marilyn Monroe, but we would (rightly) never state those claims as absolute fact in their biographies. As such, the reference to Malcolm X's alleged bisexuality should, at the least, be qualified by the clause 'according to two biographies.' Thus, "According to two biographies, Little occasionally engaged in sex with other men, usually for money." I plan to make this change shortly, unless anyone has reasonable objections. Dmalveaux ( talk) 15:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
No one disputes that Marable's biography alleges bisexual behavior. No one disputes that Perry's book also alleges bisexual behavior. Those are two books. As for what you call the third book: Rodnell Collins' claim about X rubbing powder over an elderly man's body (which, again, X attributes to Rudy) does not support this article's relevant sentence, which says "Little had sex with other men." So we're still only looking at two books that claim X had sex with men; two books that support the article's claim. Two books out of the dozens of books and articles that do not mention such a thing. It's also important to note that Malcolm X revealed a host of embarrassing things about his youth in in his autobiography, yet never mentioned any bisexual behavior. Having said that, my point is not that the claims are absolutely untrue (I personally think that they are, at least in part, true). Rather, my point is that the claims have not been proven true to the point that the article should definitively say "Little had sex with other men" as absolute fact. The article loses nothing by adding the qualifier, "According to two biographers..." or some variation thereof. It's a reasonable act of restraint on our part to include such a qualifier. We would, and do, extend the same courtesy to other leaders, especially those who can no longer speak for themselves. Dmalveaux ( talk) 01:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Sounds good. I'll make the change shortly if no one else gets to it. Dmalveaux ( talk) 16:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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It was later discovered via The Freedom Of Information Act, former Nation Of Islam National Treasurer John Ali, was, and still may be an F.B.I. Agent during his tenure with The Nation Of Islam. A data base search for this agent years later, after the Malcolm X F.B.I. files were released is non-existent.
Dgamba (
talk) 21:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}} Memorials and tributes
Paragraph four (4) second sentence:
Many cities have renamed streets after Malcolm X; in 1987, New York mayor Ed Koch proclaimed Lenox Avenue in Harlem to be Malcolm X Boulevard.[269] The name of Reid Street in Brooklyn, New York, was changed to Malcolm X Boulevard in 1985.[270]
Please change to “The name of Reid Avenue in Brooklyn, New York, was changed to Malcolm X Boulevard in 1985.[270]"
See Goggle Maps, type in “Reid Avenue, Brooklyn, NY.”
71.102.140.36 ( talk) 04:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Not done
Chzz
► 05:09, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
There are now two of them. The one currently in "External links", www.columbia.edu/cu/ccbh/mxp/index.html, and this one: mxp.manningmarable.com. Which one should be regarded as "correct"? The second one seems to be more recent. Prescottbush ( talk) 03:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
The name of the first daughter, Atallah, is not derived from the name Atillah the Hun, who was neither black nor shared the Islamic faith, thus making it unlikely that Malcolm X, who was so careful about names, would name his first daughter thus. The name Atallah , in Arabic, means "gift from God", and is a common name for Muslim/Arab children. Please make the appropriate note of this in your page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.149.170 ( talk) 20:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
"Detroit Red" redirects to this article without explaining what that means or why. This article does not mention his other names used. There should be a place in this article for those other names, which are should be easy to find reference for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.219.32 ( talk) 08:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
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Paragraph two (2) of main article, two (2) typographical errors corrections in bold Two (2) grammatical errors (striking the comma after hospital; instead, place the comma in the same sentence after "thirteen", e.g. When he was thirteen, his mother...). Typographical orrections as follows:
Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. When he was thirteen his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entereing (entering).
Therefore, to change X to Y, Here is X:
Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. hen he was thirteen his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entereing.
Change it to Y:
Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. When he was thirteen, his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entering.
David Jerrard Givens ( talk) 02:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I think the part where the value of the life insurance policy is stated and then given a value in 2010 dollars would qualify as original research. The value either needs to be verified or that sectioned removed. Also as Value of money is ambigious, there are at least ten different ways to determine value in the past compared to present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.141.193.128 ( talk) 17:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I do not see if their are any surviving papers of him or where they are. From here, Harlem Center’s Director to Retire in Early 2011 can I edit the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture to say that it has all of his papers? It's unclear to me. If Schomburg does have all his papers, then why is it not in the article, or did I miss it? 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 11:17, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
A new section, "Recording found", was added to the article this week. While the new recording has been in the news recently, I'm not sure it merits mention in the article. It seems like an instance of WP:Recentism and undue weight. What do other editors think? — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry guys, I know I'm doing this wrong, but I noticed that in the first section (Early Life), that it says Malcolm lived with a series of white foster parents. He lived in a detention home in Mason, Michigan, which did have white people in charge, but later was taken in by an African-American family before moving to Roxbury with Ella. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.192.26 ( talk) 16:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The article states, "Malcolm X met Betty Sanders", then refers to her in the next paragraph as "Betty X". While most of the details belong at the Betty Shabazz article, I think we should mention, for continuity purposes, that Sanders changed her name to "Betty X" after joining the Nation of Islam. Otherwise it's confusing for the reader. Joefromrandb ( talk) 23:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
This is mentioned in the fourth paragraph. I would like to see a citation for this. I don't think he ever himself avowed racism and then disavowed it.It is true he preached white hatred. However, I don't think there is any evidence that he changed his position regarding this after his trip to Mecca.
What I think he changed was his view on whether blacks and whites could integrate and live together as equals. He believed initially integration between blacks and whites was impossible. However, after his journey to mecca he changed his mind and now believed it was possible, though probably very difficult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.100.125 ( talk) 02:18, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
This is taken from a recent AP news article: Malcolm X's letter, written after a pilgrimage to Mecca, addresses the recent time he spent with Muslims "whose skin was the whitest of white." "In fact, what I have seen and experienced on this pilgrimage has forced me to 're arrange' much of my thought patterns, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions," he wrote. The letter was sent to publisher Grove Press for inclusion in the autobiography, which was first published in 1965. Grove included the letter in files it gave to Syracuse University in 1969. [4] Glennconti ( talk) 00:46, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me where to get the complete text to this "lost" letter? [5] Glennconti ( talk) 01:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Are you sure about the insurance being received as the $18/mo widow's allowance? [7] The earlier text implied they were two different things -- this just doesn't sound right for a lot of reasons. Can you check the sources? EEng ( talk) 14:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Odd as it may seem, Malcolm X named his daughters after Attila the Hun, Kublai Khan, and Elijah Muhammad. Here is Rickford on Attallah, Qubilah, and Ilyasah. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:43, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
Under this section it is claimed Malcolm X was antisemitic, this is repeated in the lead. This should either be removed from the lead per WP:WEIGHT or expanded upon largely. It also needs to be explained more, was he personally antisemitic or did he teach antisemitic views? I can't access the ref but if the ref just has one sentence saying he was antismeitic without explanation or justification then it should eb removed from the article. Adam4267 ( talk) 19:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
i went over the Wikipedia featured article criteria. I invite you folks to look at item (b) which is before item (c) and item (d) et. al. Where Malcolm's archive's are located are historically significant and furthermore they are extremely, extremely useful to historians. By failing to include where they are located, you are handicapping professional historians. I invite you to include where his archives are located. And I know this is a rehash of archive 6, but you folks have to include this. You folks are not the be all and end all of historical research, you are just the beginning point for professional historians. Ijustreadbooks ( talk) 03:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
I removed the following from the "Memorials and tributes" section of the article:
References
I think it gives undue weight to a single plaque in Malcolm X's honor, when there are hundreds—perhaps thousands—and I wonder whether they're noteworthy. What do other editors think? — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 20:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
wasn't malcolm x also influenced by jean-paul sartre? i say this because of malcolm x's famous quote "by any means necessary". Doncan94 ( talk) 13:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
I question whether this belongs in the lede. While it's certainly possible, it's far from proven. The death of Earl Little is discussed in the body of the article; it seems to be undue weight to mention only the rumor of murder in the lede. What do others think? Joefromrandb ( talk) 17:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Where is Abdul Alkalimat? Who destroys Manning's whitewashed distrotions? Alkalimat For balance we need more authentic sources than those praised in NY times.-- Inayity ( talk) 10:53, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Is there any truth in the rumour that Malcom X had homosexual affairs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.9.226 ( talk) 21:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Malcolm X fought against racism his entire life, so how did he "disavowed racism" when he was only a racist in the eyes of his detractors? Also the issue of this change post-Hajj seems to be used to soften up or negate some of his early popular statements. It therefore does not clarify what Malcolm personally had issue with, it certainly does not mean he had issues with EVERYTHING he said prior to Hajj. So I am sure 90% stayed the same. He also said, Whites cannot join us, there must be Black-Black unity, we must learn to love ourselves ... so a refinement is not some drastic revisionist change as parts of the lede are trying to suggest. -- Inayity ( talk) 10:26, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Currently: Malcolm X stepped outside stationhouse;
Corrected: Malcolm X stepped outside the stationhouse; 98.28.166.53 ( talk) 17:51, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure there is plenty of debate on the archived talk pages about this, but as it read right now there is a bit of a logical conflict. If Malcolm X is to be credited (IMO, rightly) for renouncing his previously racist views, then we have to be explicit/clear in stating his early views were racist. This shouldn't be controversial if there is self-admission on his part. As the article reads currently, his position (racist or not) is left ambiguous in the lead. It's like having your cake and eating it too. - E.G. He wasn't really a racist, but in the end he denounced his early racist views. - Doesn't really make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ProfJustice ( talk • contribs) 08:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I am an Aussie, and thus this article has absolutely no relevance to me. Reading it objectively I encountered a lot of qualms with the way it is written, phrased, and most importantly sourced. Or the lack thereof. Initially I came here to state that whilst the policy on the matter is black and white, ie:
If someone tagged your contributions with citation needed and you disagree, discuss the matter on the article's discussion page. Controversial, poorly-sourced claims in biographies of living people should be deleted immediately.
That I ought to delete a HEAP of stuff especially controversial poorly sourced claims in biographies. Too much stuff that it's kind of daunting as I dislike removing anything and prefer just tagging up with citation needed, etc, because someone with a vested interest (which is probably a bad thing from a NPOV angle) spent a lot of time and effort putting this together.
Then I read like a hundred years of people saying the same thing. The article quality is poor, unsourced, but they're scared to edit it because they know fucking around with a black (or white, or ANY) supremacists wiki page is prroooobbably a bad move. But fuck. How many times can we call it out as bad quality but "we'll just ignore it this time, please, someone help fix it?" and leave never to check back because we don't want to kick a hornets nest?
So, as an Aussie (American's like us, right? Doesn't matter what color, right? Right? :/) I figure if anyone could wield the editing axe hopefully I could. That said, I am NOT going to remove things, however I will throw up tags, clear tags. Please do not remove those tags unless you are adding citations, or the appropriate who/what/when tag that is used with the appropriate name, thing, or date. If you do, I will set a pack of rabid fucking koalas on you, and those guys are mean. And smell really fucking bad. I mean it. You'll burn whatever pants you're wearing if those pricks climb your leg, that's for sure. That stink never washes off.
One tricky point that has been raised many times is 'black supremacy' and racist views. Having only just read this article, but having extensively examined it's sourcing and quite a few third party articles (I'm stuck in the wiki worm hole of learning about stuff I will never have any use for and it's 6am the morning after I started originally looking up gum boots ... don't ask) I can honestly say from a neutral perspective that the dude was extremely racist, and held some extremist views at some points in his life at least. Whether he recanted these views or not cannot be held to a different standard than other races, all white supremacists on wikipedia have that pretty much within the first ten words of their bio. And whether they are self professed or not is irrelevant.
This is something that HAS to be dealt with with this article. Sources and citations are the second concern here, factual accuracy and NPOV is clearly in breach. I assume that it is merely the error of an editor or two who crafted the lede of the article, but it's nothing that can't be fixed up. I will leave that to the editors who regularly lurk here to fix, but in the interim I will be also tagging this page up as NPOV until that is addressed. Please, again, do not remove a tag unless you are replacing it or fixing the problem in question to the same expectations and standards that are reflected on similar articles of similar figures in American history.
As this is arguably a very important article on a very important figure in American history I feel the fact these points keep getting raised then swiftly die in obscurity as the talk pages keep getting archived is doing it damage. I will touch base every now and then to see if we can kick off some discussion, or to see if any wonderful wiki fairies fix things, but I am still very reluctant to touch this article myself given that I am not even from the US so my understanding is limited to just the facts maam kinda stuff. Which can be a good thing at times insofar as calling problems out, but horrible in allowing me to apply myself for positive change. I hope my tags will help guide you in bettering this page, please do speak freely if you have any ideas of how to fix this article up further!
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 20:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
This is worse than I expected. I'm going to take my time marking up problem claims and statements and do this over a longer time frame to prevent the article being littered with blue everywhere. Please do feel free to fix with citations or more information anything NOT marked up you think may be a problem. There are quite a few things that could very well be ref'd from currently known and existing IN ARTICLE references that are being used too! So anyone who owns said ref material and can review it please give it a try!
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 20:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
And now I see why it stops at one suggestion and no recourse, what an underwhelming and quite frustrating utterly counter-productive response of edits. The tags inserted were specifically at statement points that lacked citation, not just in the lede, but no further clarification within the body of the article. These were removed arbitrarily by User:Jojalozzo, and as much as I love absolutely wasting my time I am reverting it back to the form I left it in pending edits moving forwards not backwards. The way forwards being improving the article, not claiming if it ain't broke and going backwards.
User:Malik Shabazz, you may have perhaps missed the specific element in the tag you removed stating clearly 'Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (May 2013)' Please do not remove tags until disputes are resolved, and as indicated. I have gone into far more length than even warranted to try and explain myself on the talk page here and asked one thing; that there be discussion rather than arbitrary reversal.
Wiki pages don't happen overnight, they are a constantly evolving thing, evolving hopefully for the better and I cannot possibly see how stronger citations could damage this article in any way, shape, or form. Especially when it is an article that has a vast history of derps coming through and defacing stuff which is very often subdued with accurate sourcing and citing of sources. Again, that can't possibly be a bad thing. There is also no rush to do anything. Don't think "Oh there's too much blue text, people will think the article is wrong." as most people are aware that everything here is a work in progress. I have however only tagged up the first few sections so we can improve this a bite sized piece at a time.
I'm not interested in getting into revert wars and thus am going to request a third opinion Template:3O immediately given I'm quite clearly outnumbered as the only critic of the quality present. I am sure that editors of the article feel that this article is fine, however it is nowhere near as thorough or concise as say the article for MLK, et al. It isn't a case of 'It's good enough.' because no, it isn't, there are improvements that can be made. Do they need to be made? Eh, probably not, I usually trust wiki articles without sources. But is that what Wikipedia is about? Fuck no. It can be improved, and thus will be improved. If this were some random actor or B-celebrity I would probably have resigned seeing this response. But given the importance this figure had in American history, even as an Australian I can see it warrants far better articulation, citation, and development. I am at a loss as to how this could be perceived as a bad thing.
User:Cullen328, it is fantastic you have a copy handy, because I specifically raised a few issues above that could be resolved if you have the time to assist in expanding the citations required for the more controversial statements. Further could you please, please help with the 'black supremacy' issue? Supremacists are labelled so within the opening paragraph in all other cases I have seen online, including ones who have reverted their opinions through life experience, or re-evaluation of their stance on issues. The article does clearly state he is a 'black supremacist,' (something I feel needs more than one source as evidence as it is a very strong statement) and it is implied that for a lot of his life this was a key element he was noted for, and yet it's resigned to the end of the lede and postulated in a submissive way, if it's such a key thing as it implies why is it shoved up the back? I could really use any assistance you could offer given you have access to the sources that would best serve this article. That said, we can't just rely on the bio.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 12:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
In addendum, I am more than happy to go through the article and deal with things one by one if you find a tag that may be ill-placed. When I commit to dragging an article kicking and screaming up to par with other articles of a similar nature I commit for the long haul. So please, if you feel any specific one tag is questionable, raise it, I am not infallible, although I am doing my best to keep it to specific statements of import that extend the understanding of the subject matter. I will however not stand for a blanket reverse with "LOL U SUX" or " EXPLAIN ALL THE CITATION REQUESTS" as a next step in article improvement. This is not productive, in fact it's the contrary.
Also, I feel I ought to state for transparency re my 3O'ing--not that my editing history isn't available and I always excuse myself from discussions where it may be stated I have any vested interest--that I have been asked to assist with several complex 3O matters in the past few months given my background, but primarily volunteer my time on the dispute resolution team and feel that my odd assistance with 3O and complete lack of knowledge of who deals with 3O requests at this time mitigates any possibility of influence or what not.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 12:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Ok. I'm at an impasse. Third opinion request doesn't really apply. What am I meant to say? "There is a disagreement needing a third opinion, I would like to improve the article quality and feel that adding sources where unsourced strong statements are made will help this, others disagree and want to leave the article in it's old state indefinitely?" That's kind of the whole point of Wikipedia, improving things with our spare time. So, what I'll do instead is give it a day or two and hope we get some discussion going on. If it just turns to a lame edit war I'll hit up DRN and see whether I can as a volunteer there still ask for DRN assistance without breaking any policies of neutrality (I've never had to 3O an article before, and I've definitely never had to DRN, so even though I'm involved with the process I'm not really up to speed on how -I- can request assistance from them. I'll also discuss this with the organiser of the dispute resolution team for clarity on how to proceed.
Please resist temptations for blanket reverts during this time if at all possible. Because if it can't be dealt with at DRN it'll have to go through the admin board and they tend to not take too kindly to douchebaggery and I sure as fuck don't want someone getting banned over something I've inadvertently caused and I've seen folks banned from editing articles or even the entire site for less and that doesn't help -anyone- IMO. :/
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 12:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Citation requests are not an attack on you, other editors, or the article in question. Whilst I concur you have a few current editors with an ongoing history with this article agreeing with you, it is not because using citation templates in an article can be or has been done improperly but I am aware that some articles with editors who are closely related to the topic (and let's face it, if you name yourself after the person the bio is after on Wikipedia, you MIGHT just be a teensy weensy bit too attached to be objective or neutral!) can often see it this way. As I've stated ab initio, every attempt to improve this article has been met with hostility and heel dragging when nothing but good can come from challenging the material ourselves before it is challenged by someone with less honorable intentions. If you feel that this is an insult, or even if I've just said something in a way that rubbed you up the wrong way, please say so. Just don't pretend policy enforces heel dragging, or that I need to explain every challenge of an unsourced statement when trying to get more sourcing going on, or that unless I intrinsically am familiar with his biography my ability to understand application of policy is moot, as that's just nonsense.
I am going to have to retract my prior offer to go over every point, and beg to differ on your statement that 'until you can be very specific about how the article fails,' etc, I do not need to be specific at all. I do not need to explain why I am placing citation requests, at all. The citation request template explains itself quite thoroughly and is being used exactly as it is intended. It is a point that is challenged, or challengeable that has no citation or in the case of a lede; no further explanation. These are the only points I have tagged thus far. If we took the attitude that anyone wanting to challenge a statement has to defend every single request, this entire project would fail. And frankly it is a waste of my time, and your time, which could be spent improving the article.
I have contacted the DRN and am awaiting their reply as to whether they can assist or if it has to be through the ANB. I will update them on the escalation of this dispute to date. I have merged your comments with the appropriate talk page heading as too many headings will make things confusing (as the archives show). I've quite often said in all my years with this project; if you are intrinsically involved in a subject you are probably the least able to judge the quality of a page. This is the entire purpose of 3O and it really is a shame I can't apply it to this because too many editors jumped in. 3O can only be applied editor to editor re a dispute, and blanket reverts should be kept for vandalism not merely because you don't like the citation requests or feel they are somehow 'wrong' or incorrectly applied.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 04:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Addendum: I have reapplied the NPOV tag. I have explained (as has the template itself, which everyone viewing the page can see) that NPOV tags are not to be removed until a dispute is resolved. I thus ask once more that you refrain from removing this tag, not only does it detract from any relevant point Cullen may be raising by making it appear as though there is just general enforcement of prior versioning going on (ie: people offended by blue text or tags thinking it somehow invalidates content (?)) but it is a patent breach of Wikipedia policy. You can't get more black and white than when the template itself instructs you not to remove it, especially if something is now in formal dispute. Further removal will be passed immediately to arbitration, as that is a blatant breach.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 04:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to open up a can of worms so quickly after the disruptions here of late. However, the lede states that Malcolm X persisted in his views about Pan-Africanism even after his time in Mecca. If this cannot be substantiated, it should be removed. The article on Black Supremacy says the following "Two trends [in Black Supremacist Theory] have acquired a veneer of respectability in many places of Black Academia and Black Studies departments; the Melanin Theory, and Afrocentrism/Global Pan Africanism." And further in the Pan-Africanism article; at it's core Pan-Africanism is “a belief that African peoples, both on the continent and in the Diaspora, share not merely a common history, but a common destiny”. If that "destiny" is equality with other races, I have no problem with it. However, if that "destiny" is Black Supremacy, I believe Malcolm X would have renounced this too after the Hajj. I am certainly no expert in Pan-Africanism, but do believe that section of the lede needs a critical eye focused on it. It may just be safer to remove it (the reference to Pan-Africanism in the lede) if it cannot be substantiated. I will do it after a period of time if no one responds or has any interest. Glennconti ( talk) 02:45, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I am trying to learn why he left, especially why there was apparently such rancor against his leaving. These sentences are not helping me: After he left the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X began to articulate his own views. During the final year of his life, his philosophy was flexible, and it is difficult to categorize his views on some subjects. Some of the themes to which Malcolm X frequently returned in his speeches demonstrate a relative consistency of thought. This strikes me as obfuscation, intentional or otherwise. Do we know what aspects of Nation teachings he rejected? Rumiton ( talk) 14:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I have opened a RSN case on the Bruce Perry Book as it smells funny to me It can be found here Weaponbb7 ( talk) 04:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The Autobiography of Malcolm X, Chapter 17, apparently tells us that King Faisal lent him a car to do his Hajj with. Did this happen without their meeting? (Just asking.) Rumiton ( talk) 09:11, 12 August 2010 This is the link again: (UTC) http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/malcolmx/section8.rhtml Rumiton ( talk) 10:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I think the current lede image is not the best image available. The current shot is up his nose, and not a good image for the lede IMHO, though it works well with the gunshot holes image below. I would like to see if anybody else thinks the one with him looking to his right, and seated is better for the lede. — GabeMc ( talk) 04:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Arabic is read from right-to-left. Even so the way the name is written in Arabic does not match how it's been written here in English even if you read the Arabic backwards. The Arabic reads: الشباز الحاجّ مالك (=El-Shabazz El-Hajj Malik) where as the English says it is "El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz" (= الحاجّ مالك الشباز). After meddling with the page a bit I've come to the conclusion it's a problem with the line break that arises depending on the size of the window. Decreasing and Increasing the size of the window I've found that the order of the names are correct at a certain width, but wrong at others. I don't write Arabic script on the computer so I'm not sure how to fix this. Perhaps some other editor knows what to do. Rlinfinity ( talk) 16:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
I think that this was the most important speech he ever made when speaking about the house-negroes and the field-negroes. Why do we not integrate it in the article or at least link to the speech? -- 188.46.45.30 ( talk) 22:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The speech is important enough that it has its own article. See Message to the Grass Roots. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 08:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Hi. There are a number of things about the House Negro - Field Negro speech that are interesting. Firstly, the great film of it is now no longer on youtube. A shame. You can at least see the reactions of people as he moves them from anger to humour and back again like a master. Secondly, the latest time I've seen the speech (he made it frequently) was 4th Feb 1965.... Can this be true? I'd love to know because by this time he'd had his damascene conversion and in that speech he's extemely nasty about non-violence practitioners.. (CORE, SNCC et al were extremely tough and brave young people - how he could equate MLK and them as traitors is breathtakingly awful...I'd therefore be extremely grateful if anyone could tell me the last time he made the speech..Imagine where he could have led SNCC, Stokely and the Black Panthers if he hadn't been ASSASSINATED...? 1969 with MLK & him alive. Lord. Philthegeordie@hotmail.co.uk for any definitive times for the last FN/HN speech. Much appreciated.
{{edit semi-protected}}
Noormubarak (
talk) 12:40, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
it is mentioned in Malxom X biography that during his youth, he was involved in sex with men for money. this is totally a lie. out of respect for a man who died fighting for morals and human values, remove this disgusting unrelevent and misleading point.
I'm going to trim back the Further reading section a little. For the most part, I'll be removing books that aren't particularly useful: books I wouldn't consider using as sources, books I wouldn't recommend to a friend who wanted to know more about Malcolm X, etc.
If I remove a book that you think shouldn't have been removed, please don't take it personally. Put it back, but please leave a little explanation here why you think it's an important book to include.
I recommend editors read WP:Further reading, which is just a proposal at this stage but which has, in my view, some good ideas about what sorts of books do and don't belong in the "Further reading" section of an article. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 08:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
please add this famous photo, File:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif Malcolm X holding an M1 Carbine and pulling back the curtains to peer out of a window. A similar image first appeared in Ebony magazine.
File:Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I changed the lead to reflect the fact more clearly that Malcolm X disavowed his time with the Nation of Islam. He was a spokesperson for them but when he was free of them he called himself foolish and his time with them 12 years wasted. So who was Time's most influential man? The front man preaching the views of the Nation of Islam or the free man who was traveling the world to find himself. Hopefully anyone trying to get at his philosophy will clearly understand that he himself repudiated his speeches while with the Nation of Islam. Too important not to mention in some way in the lead. Glennconti ( talk) 05:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
I have proposed a new and different change to the lead as follows:
"However, Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime and he later disavowed racism.".
If there are no dissenting comments I will be so bold as to make this change myself after a period of time. Glennconti ( talk) 23:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the lead currently says:
To his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans.[6] His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence.[7][8][9][10][11] He has been called one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history,[12][13][14]
I would like it to say:
To his admirers, he was a courageous advocate for the rights of African Americans, a man who indicted white America in the harshest terms for its crimes against black Americans.[6] His detractors accused him of preaching racism, black supremacy, antisemitism, and violence.[7][8][9][10][11] However, Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his life time and he later disavowed racism. He has been called one of the greatest and most influential African Americans in history,[12][13][14]
So as not to be redundant in the lead the "and he later disavowed racism" bit is a movement from a subsequent paragraph in the lead. Glennconti ( talk) 12:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
No one wishes to make a counter proposal, so I will propose a new change in hopes that it will achieve consensus. How about: Regardless of his admirers and his critics, the fact remains that Malcolm X's philosophy changed over his lifetime. In this way, we have altered the conjunction and don't even mention the possibility that his position on racism may or may not have changed. This should satisfy both Malik S. and Halaqah. If I get no feedback after a period of time I will assume this change is acceptable by all parties. Glennconti ( talk) 17:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
OK, I had a go. There is still a lot of disjointedness in the lede, and too many refs which I think should have stayed in the main body. But it's a start. Rumiton ( talk) 10:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
This rather clumsy title now appears 60 times in the article. I tried to initialise it (NOI) but that was reverted. Any other ideas how this might be streamlined? Rumiton ( talk) 12:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Is there a difference between color and tone? Rumiton ( talk) 10:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
The article states in the first sentence that he was also known as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz but then never elaborates. When did he take this name? Did he use it in all contexts? Of course, any additional information about its significance and why he used it would be nice, but at a minimum the date should be reported. JamesMLane t c 23:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
According to [ [3]] this article is currently averaging 9214 looks per day. Take bows, editors. Rumiton ( talk) 14:13, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
They called her crazy for rejecting free pork because she wants to adhere to Seventh Day Adventist dietary restrictions. So whenever the state sent food commodities to her home she would not serve the pork. The state used that against her said that she was not providing her kids with proper nutritional guidelines. So they removed them out of the home and put her in a psych ward. Until she was released to Malcolm and his siblings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.102.247.186 ( talk) 04:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I think his bisexuality should be added to the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/books/malcolm-x-biographer-dies-on-eve-of-publication-of-redefining-work.html?hp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.187.183 ( talk) 04:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
However, it adds the line "No other biographers have written about such sexual encounters.[38][39]" The article mentioned above provides a second credible source. That line should now be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.62.134 ( talk) 18:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
This is controversial, with no concrete evidence, should it not state; "It is thought by some that Little occasionally engaged in sex with other men, usually for money. This is highly debated ." Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/19/manning_marables_controversial_new_biography_refuels —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Withoutillusions (
talk •
contribs) 02:18, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
The article refers to the claims of bisexual behavior as absolute fact, but 'circumstancial evidence' in two biographies is hardly proof. This is especially true when we consider the fact that the sexual allegations do not appear in any of the other dozens of books and articles written about Malcolm X. More importantly, X's own autobiography contradicts one of the alleged incidents of bisexual behavior, which X attributes to his partner-in-crime Rudy. Think of it this way: multiple books about JFK (and RFK) allege that either or both men had affairs with Marilyn Monroe, but we would (rightly) never state those claims as absolute fact in their biographies. As such, the reference to Malcolm X's alleged bisexuality should, at the least, be qualified by the clause 'according to two biographies.' Thus, "According to two biographies, Little occasionally engaged in sex with other men, usually for money." I plan to make this change shortly, unless anyone has reasonable objections. Dmalveaux ( talk) 15:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
No one disputes that Marable's biography alleges bisexual behavior. No one disputes that Perry's book also alleges bisexual behavior. Those are two books. As for what you call the third book: Rodnell Collins' claim about X rubbing powder over an elderly man's body (which, again, X attributes to Rudy) does not support this article's relevant sentence, which says "Little had sex with other men." So we're still only looking at two books that claim X had sex with men; two books that support the article's claim. Two books out of the dozens of books and articles that do not mention such a thing. It's also important to note that Malcolm X revealed a host of embarrassing things about his youth in in his autobiography, yet never mentioned any bisexual behavior. Having said that, my point is not that the claims are absolutely untrue (I personally think that they are, at least in part, true). Rather, my point is that the claims have not been proven true to the point that the article should definitively say "Little had sex with other men" as absolute fact. The article loses nothing by adding the qualifier, "According to two biographers..." or some variation thereof. It's a reasonable act of restraint on our part to include such a qualifier. We would, and do, extend the same courtesy to other leaders, especially those who can no longer speak for themselves. Dmalveaux ( talk) 01:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Sounds good. I'll make the change shortly if no one else gets to it. Dmalveaux ( talk) 16:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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It was later discovered via The Freedom Of Information Act, former Nation Of Islam National Treasurer John Ali, was, and still may be an F.B.I. Agent during his tenure with The Nation Of Islam. A data base search for this agent years later, after the Malcolm X F.B.I. files were released is non-existent.
Dgamba (
talk) 21:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}} Memorials and tributes
Paragraph four (4) second sentence:
Many cities have renamed streets after Malcolm X; in 1987, New York mayor Ed Koch proclaimed Lenox Avenue in Harlem to be Malcolm X Boulevard.[269] The name of Reid Street in Brooklyn, New York, was changed to Malcolm X Boulevard in 1985.[270]
Please change to “The name of Reid Avenue in Brooklyn, New York, was changed to Malcolm X Boulevard in 1985.[270]"
See Goggle Maps, type in “Reid Avenue, Brooklyn, NY.”
71.102.140.36 ( talk) 04:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Not done
Chzz
► 05:09, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
There are now two of them. The one currently in "External links", www.columbia.edu/cu/ccbh/mxp/index.html, and this one: mxp.manningmarable.com. Which one should be regarded as "correct"? The second one seems to be more recent. Prescottbush ( talk) 03:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
The name of the first daughter, Atallah, is not derived from the name Atillah the Hun, who was neither black nor shared the Islamic faith, thus making it unlikely that Malcolm X, who was so careful about names, would name his first daughter thus. The name Atallah , in Arabic, means "gift from God", and is a common name for Muslim/Arab children. Please make the appropriate note of this in your page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.149.170 ( talk) 20:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
"Detroit Red" redirects to this article without explaining what that means or why. This article does not mention his other names used. There should be a place in this article for those other names, which are should be easy to find reference for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.219.32 ( talk) 08:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
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Paragraph two (2) of main article, two (2) typographical errors corrections in bold Two (2) grammatical errors (striking the comma after hospital; instead, place the comma in the same sentence after "thirteen", e.g. When he was thirteen, his mother...). Typographical orrections as follows:
Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. When he was thirteen his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entereing (entering).
Therefore, to change X to Y, Here is X:
Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. hen he was thirteen his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entereing.
Change it to Y:
Malcolm X's father died—killed by whites, it was rumored—when he was young, and at least one of his uncles was lynched. When he was thirteen, his mother was placed in a mental hospital, and he was placed in a series of foster homes. In 1946, at age 21, he went to prison for breaking and entering.
David Jerrard Givens ( talk) 02:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I think the part where the value of the life insurance policy is stated and then given a value in 2010 dollars would qualify as original research. The value either needs to be verified or that sectioned removed. Also as Value of money is ambigious, there are at least ten different ways to determine value in the past compared to present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.141.193.128 ( talk) 17:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I do not see if their are any surviving papers of him or where they are. From here, Harlem Center’s Director to Retire in Early 2011 can I edit the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture to say that it has all of his papers? It's unclear to me. If Schomburg does have all his papers, then why is it not in the article, or did I miss it? 66.234.33.8 ( talk) 11:17, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
A new section, "Recording found", was added to the article this week. While the new recording has been in the news recently, I'm not sure it merits mention in the article. It seems like an instance of WP:Recentism and undue weight. What do other editors think? — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry guys, I know I'm doing this wrong, but I noticed that in the first section (Early Life), that it says Malcolm lived with a series of white foster parents. He lived in a detention home in Mason, Michigan, which did have white people in charge, but later was taken in by an African-American family before moving to Roxbury with Ella. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.192.26 ( talk) 16:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The article states, "Malcolm X met Betty Sanders", then refers to her in the next paragraph as "Betty X". While most of the details belong at the Betty Shabazz article, I think we should mention, for continuity purposes, that Sanders changed her name to "Betty X" after joining the Nation of Islam. Otherwise it's confusing for the reader. Joefromrandb ( talk) 23:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
This is mentioned in the fourth paragraph. I would like to see a citation for this. I don't think he ever himself avowed racism and then disavowed it.It is true he preached white hatred. However, I don't think there is any evidence that he changed his position regarding this after his trip to Mecca.
What I think he changed was his view on whether blacks and whites could integrate and live together as equals. He believed initially integration between blacks and whites was impossible. However, after his journey to mecca he changed his mind and now believed it was possible, though probably very difficult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.100.125 ( talk) 02:18, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
This is taken from a recent AP news article: Malcolm X's letter, written after a pilgrimage to Mecca, addresses the recent time he spent with Muslims "whose skin was the whitest of white." "In fact, what I have seen and experienced on this pilgrimage has forced me to 're arrange' much of my thought patterns, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions," he wrote. The letter was sent to publisher Grove Press for inclusion in the autobiography, which was first published in 1965. Grove included the letter in files it gave to Syracuse University in 1969. [4] Glennconti ( talk) 00:46, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me where to get the complete text to this "lost" letter? [5] Glennconti ( talk) 01:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Are you sure about the insurance being received as the $18/mo widow's allowance? [7] The earlier text implied they were two different things -- this just doesn't sound right for a lot of reasons. Can you check the sources? EEng ( talk) 14:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Odd as it may seem, Malcolm X named his daughters after Attila the Hun, Kublai Khan, and Elijah Muhammad. Here is Rickford on Attallah, Qubilah, and Ilyasah. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:43, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
Under this section it is claimed Malcolm X was antisemitic, this is repeated in the lead. This should either be removed from the lead per WP:WEIGHT or expanded upon largely. It also needs to be explained more, was he personally antisemitic or did he teach antisemitic views? I can't access the ref but if the ref just has one sentence saying he was antismeitic without explanation or justification then it should eb removed from the article. Adam4267 ( talk) 19:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
i went over the Wikipedia featured article criteria. I invite you folks to look at item (b) which is before item (c) and item (d) et. al. Where Malcolm's archive's are located are historically significant and furthermore they are extremely, extremely useful to historians. By failing to include where they are located, you are handicapping professional historians. I invite you to include where his archives are located. And I know this is a rehash of archive 6, but you folks have to include this. You folks are not the be all and end all of historical research, you are just the beginning point for professional historians. Ijustreadbooks ( talk) 03:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
I removed the following from the "Memorials and tributes" section of the article:
References
I think it gives undue weight to a single plaque in Malcolm X's honor, when there are hundreds—perhaps thousands—and I wonder whether they're noteworthy. What do other editors think? — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 20:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
wasn't malcolm x also influenced by jean-paul sartre? i say this because of malcolm x's famous quote "by any means necessary". Doncan94 ( talk) 13:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
I question whether this belongs in the lede. While it's certainly possible, it's far from proven. The death of Earl Little is discussed in the body of the article; it seems to be undue weight to mention only the rumor of murder in the lede. What do others think? Joefromrandb ( talk) 17:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Where is Abdul Alkalimat? Who destroys Manning's whitewashed distrotions? Alkalimat For balance we need more authentic sources than those praised in NY times.-- Inayity ( talk) 10:53, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Is there any truth in the rumour that Malcom X had homosexual affairs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.9.226 ( talk) 21:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Malcolm X fought against racism his entire life, so how did he "disavowed racism" when he was only a racist in the eyes of his detractors? Also the issue of this change post-Hajj seems to be used to soften up or negate some of his early popular statements. It therefore does not clarify what Malcolm personally had issue with, it certainly does not mean he had issues with EVERYTHING he said prior to Hajj. So I am sure 90% stayed the same. He also said, Whites cannot join us, there must be Black-Black unity, we must learn to love ourselves ... so a refinement is not some drastic revisionist change as parts of the lede are trying to suggest. -- Inayity ( talk) 10:26, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Currently: Malcolm X stepped outside stationhouse;
Corrected: Malcolm X stepped outside the stationhouse; 98.28.166.53 ( talk) 17:51, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure there is plenty of debate on the archived talk pages about this, but as it read right now there is a bit of a logical conflict. If Malcolm X is to be credited (IMO, rightly) for renouncing his previously racist views, then we have to be explicit/clear in stating his early views were racist. This shouldn't be controversial if there is self-admission on his part. As the article reads currently, his position (racist or not) is left ambiguous in the lead. It's like having your cake and eating it too. - E.G. He wasn't really a racist, but in the end he denounced his early racist views. - Doesn't really make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ProfJustice ( talk • contribs) 08:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I am an Aussie, and thus this article has absolutely no relevance to me. Reading it objectively I encountered a lot of qualms with the way it is written, phrased, and most importantly sourced. Or the lack thereof. Initially I came here to state that whilst the policy on the matter is black and white, ie:
If someone tagged your contributions with citation needed and you disagree, discuss the matter on the article's discussion page. Controversial, poorly-sourced claims in biographies of living people should be deleted immediately.
That I ought to delete a HEAP of stuff especially controversial poorly sourced claims in biographies. Too much stuff that it's kind of daunting as I dislike removing anything and prefer just tagging up with citation needed, etc, because someone with a vested interest (which is probably a bad thing from a NPOV angle) spent a lot of time and effort putting this together.
Then I read like a hundred years of people saying the same thing. The article quality is poor, unsourced, but they're scared to edit it because they know fucking around with a black (or white, or ANY) supremacists wiki page is prroooobbably a bad move. But fuck. How many times can we call it out as bad quality but "we'll just ignore it this time, please, someone help fix it?" and leave never to check back because we don't want to kick a hornets nest?
So, as an Aussie (American's like us, right? Doesn't matter what color, right? Right? :/) I figure if anyone could wield the editing axe hopefully I could. That said, I am NOT going to remove things, however I will throw up tags, clear tags. Please do not remove those tags unless you are adding citations, or the appropriate who/what/when tag that is used with the appropriate name, thing, or date. If you do, I will set a pack of rabid fucking koalas on you, and those guys are mean. And smell really fucking bad. I mean it. You'll burn whatever pants you're wearing if those pricks climb your leg, that's for sure. That stink never washes off.
One tricky point that has been raised many times is 'black supremacy' and racist views. Having only just read this article, but having extensively examined it's sourcing and quite a few third party articles (I'm stuck in the wiki worm hole of learning about stuff I will never have any use for and it's 6am the morning after I started originally looking up gum boots ... don't ask) I can honestly say from a neutral perspective that the dude was extremely racist, and held some extremist views at some points in his life at least. Whether he recanted these views or not cannot be held to a different standard than other races, all white supremacists on wikipedia have that pretty much within the first ten words of their bio. And whether they are self professed or not is irrelevant.
This is something that HAS to be dealt with with this article. Sources and citations are the second concern here, factual accuracy and NPOV is clearly in breach. I assume that it is merely the error of an editor or two who crafted the lede of the article, but it's nothing that can't be fixed up. I will leave that to the editors who regularly lurk here to fix, but in the interim I will be also tagging this page up as NPOV until that is addressed. Please, again, do not remove a tag unless you are replacing it or fixing the problem in question to the same expectations and standards that are reflected on similar articles of similar figures in American history.
As this is arguably a very important article on a very important figure in American history I feel the fact these points keep getting raised then swiftly die in obscurity as the talk pages keep getting archived is doing it damage. I will touch base every now and then to see if we can kick off some discussion, or to see if any wonderful wiki fairies fix things, but I am still very reluctant to touch this article myself given that I am not even from the US so my understanding is limited to just the facts maam kinda stuff. Which can be a good thing at times insofar as calling problems out, but horrible in allowing me to apply myself for positive change. I hope my tags will help guide you in bettering this page, please do speak freely if you have any ideas of how to fix this article up further!
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 20:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
This is worse than I expected. I'm going to take my time marking up problem claims and statements and do this over a longer time frame to prevent the article being littered with blue everywhere. Please do feel free to fix with citations or more information anything NOT marked up you think may be a problem. There are quite a few things that could very well be ref'd from currently known and existing IN ARTICLE references that are being used too! So anyone who owns said ref material and can review it please give it a try!
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 20:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
And now I see why it stops at one suggestion and no recourse, what an underwhelming and quite frustrating utterly counter-productive response of edits. The tags inserted were specifically at statement points that lacked citation, not just in the lede, but no further clarification within the body of the article. These were removed arbitrarily by User:Jojalozzo, and as much as I love absolutely wasting my time I am reverting it back to the form I left it in pending edits moving forwards not backwards. The way forwards being improving the article, not claiming if it ain't broke and going backwards.
User:Malik Shabazz, you may have perhaps missed the specific element in the tag you removed stating clearly 'Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (May 2013)' Please do not remove tags until disputes are resolved, and as indicated. I have gone into far more length than even warranted to try and explain myself on the talk page here and asked one thing; that there be discussion rather than arbitrary reversal.
Wiki pages don't happen overnight, they are a constantly evolving thing, evolving hopefully for the better and I cannot possibly see how stronger citations could damage this article in any way, shape, or form. Especially when it is an article that has a vast history of derps coming through and defacing stuff which is very often subdued with accurate sourcing and citing of sources. Again, that can't possibly be a bad thing. There is also no rush to do anything. Don't think "Oh there's too much blue text, people will think the article is wrong." as most people are aware that everything here is a work in progress. I have however only tagged up the first few sections so we can improve this a bite sized piece at a time.
I'm not interested in getting into revert wars and thus am going to request a third opinion Template:3O immediately given I'm quite clearly outnumbered as the only critic of the quality present. I am sure that editors of the article feel that this article is fine, however it is nowhere near as thorough or concise as say the article for MLK, et al. It isn't a case of 'It's good enough.' because no, it isn't, there are improvements that can be made. Do they need to be made? Eh, probably not, I usually trust wiki articles without sources. But is that what Wikipedia is about? Fuck no. It can be improved, and thus will be improved. If this were some random actor or B-celebrity I would probably have resigned seeing this response. But given the importance this figure had in American history, even as an Australian I can see it warrants far better articulation, citation, and development. I am at a loss as to how this could be perceived as a bad thing.
User:Cullen328, it is fantastic you have a copy handy, because I specifically raised a few issues above that could be resolved if you have the time to assist in expanding the citations required for the more controversial statements. Further could you please, please help with the 'black supremacy' issue? Supremacists are labelled so within the opening paragraph in all other cases I have seen online, including ones who have reverted their opinions through life experience, or re-evaluation of their stance on issues. The article does clearly state he is a 'black supremacist,' (something I feel needs more than one source as evidence as it is a very strong statement) and it is implied that for a lot of his life this was a key element he was noted for, and yet it's resigned to the end of the lede and postulated in a submissive way, if it's such a key thing as it implies why is it shoved up the back? I could really use any assistance you could offer given you have access to the sources that would best serve this article. That said, we can't just rely on the bio.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 12:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
In addendum, I am more than happy to go through the article and deal with things one by one if you find a tag that may be ill-placed. When I commit to dragging an article kicking and screaming up to par with other articles of a similar nature I commit for the long haul. So please, if you feel any specific one tag is questionable, raise it, I am not infallible, although I am doing my best to keep it to specific statements of import that extend the understanding of the subject matter. I will however not stand for a blanket reverse with "LOL U SUX" or " EXPLAIN ALL THE CITATION REQUESTS" as a next step in article improvement. This is not productive, in fact it's the contrary.
Also, I feel I ought to state for transparency re my 3O'ing--not that my editing history isn't available and I always excuse myself from discussions where it may be stated I have any vested interest--that I have been asked to assist with several complex 3O matters in the past few months given my background, but primarily volunteer my time on the dispute resolution team and feel that my odd assistance with 3O and complete lack of knowledge of who deals with 3O requests at this time mitigates any possibility of influence or what not.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 12:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Ok. I'm at an impasse. Third opinion request doesn't really apply. What am I meant to say? "There is a disagreement needing a third opinion, I would like to improve the article quality and feel that adding sources where unsourced strong statements are made will help this, others disagree and want to leave the article in it's old state indefinitely?" That's kind of the whole point of Wikipedia, improving things with our spare time. So, what I'll do instead is give it a day or two and hope we get some discussion going on. If it just turns to a lame edit war I'll hit up DRN and see whether I can as a volunteer there still ask for DRN assistance without breaking any policies of neutrality (I've never had to 3O an article before, and I've definitely never had to DRN, so even though I'm involved with the process I'm not really up to speed on how -I- can request assistance from them. I'll also discuss this with the organiser of the dispute resolution team for clarity on how to proceed.
Please resist temptations for blanket reverts during this time if at all possible. Because if it can't be dealt with at DRN it'll have to go through the admin board and they tend to not take too kindly to douchebaggery and I sure as fuck don't want someone getting banned over something I've inadvertently caused and I've seen folks banned from editing articles or even the entire site for less and that doesn't help -anyone- IMO. :/
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 12:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Citation requests are not an attack on you, other editors, or the article in question. Whilst I concur you have a few current editors with an ongoing history with this article agreeing with you, it is not because using citation templates in an article can be or has been done improperly but I am aware that some articles with editors who are closely related to the topic (and let's face it, if you name yourself after the person the bio is after on Wikipedia, you MIGHT just be a teensy weensy bit too attached to be objective or neutral!) can often see it this way. As I've stated ab initio, every attempt to improve this article has been met with hostility and heel dragging when nothing but good can come from challenging the material ourselves before it is challenged by someone with less honorable intentions. If you feel that this is an insult, or even if I've just said something in a way that rubbed you up the wrong way, please say so. Just don't pretend policy enforces heel dragging, or that I need to explain every challenge of an unsourced statement when trying to get more sourcing going on, or that unless I intrinsically am familiar with his biography my ability to understand application of policy is moot, as that's just nonsense.
I am going to have to retract my prior offer to go over every point, and beg to differ on your statement that 'until you can be very specific about how the article fails,' etc, I do not need to be specific at all. I do not need to explain why I am placing citation requests, at all. The citation request template explains itself quite thoroughly and is being used exactly as it is intended. It is a point that is challenged, or challengeable that has no citation or in the case of a lede; no further explanation. These are the only points I have tagged thus far. If we took the attitude that anyone wanting to challenge a statement has to defend every single request, this entire project would fail. And frankly it is a waste of my time, and your time, which could be spent improving the article.
I have contacted the DRN and am awaiting their reply as to whether they can assist or if it has to be through the ANB. I will update them on the escalation of this dispute to date. I have merged your comments with the appropriate talk page heading as too many headings will make things confusing (as the archives show). I've quite often said in all my years with this project; if you are intrinsically involved in a subject you are probably the least able to judge the quality of a page. This is the entire purpose of 3O and it really is a shame I can't apply it to this because too many editors jumped in. 3O can only be applied editor to editor re a dispute, and blanket reverts should be kept for vandalism not merely because you don't like the citation requests or feel they are somehow 'wrong' or incorrectly applied.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 04:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Addendum: I have reapplied the NPOV tag. I have explained (as has the template itself, which everyone viewing the page can see) that NPOV tags are not to be removed until a dispute is resolved. I thus ask once more that you refrain from removing this tag, not only does it detract from any relevant point Cullen may be raising by making it appear as though there is just general enforcement of prior versioning going on (ie: people offended by blue text or tags thinking it somehow invalidates content (?)) but it is a patent breach of Wikipedia policy. You can't get more black and white than when the template itself instructs you not to remove it, especially if something is now in formal dispute. Further removal will be passed immediately to arbitration, as that is a blatant breach.
BaSH PR0MPT ( talk) 04:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to open up a can of worms so quickly after the disruptions here of late. However, the lede states that Malcolm X persisted in his views about Pan-Africanism even after his time in Mecca. If this cannot be substantiated, it should be removed. The article on Black Supremacy says the following "Two trends [in Black Supremacist Theory] have acquired a veneer of respectability in many places of Black Academia and Black Studies departments; the Melanin Theory, and Afrocentrism/Global Pan Africanism." And further in the Pan-Africanism article; at it's core Pan-Africanism is “a belief that African peoples, both on the continent and in the Diaspora, share not merely a common history, but a common destiny”. If that "destiny" is equality with other races, I have no problem with it. However, if that "destiny" is Black Supremacy, I believe Malcolm X would have renounced this too after the Hajj. I am certainly no expert in Pan-Africanism, but do believe that section of the lede needs a critical eye focused on it. It may just be safer to remove it (the reference to Pan-Africanism in the lede) if it cannot be substantiated. I will do it after a period of time if no one responds or has any interest. Glennconti ( talk) 02:45, 30 May 2013 (UTC)