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On 2 December 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to Melaka. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The European History section begins, "In April 1511, he set sail from Goa to Malacca..." What should it say? -- Jere7my 23:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
From looking at older edits, it would appear that "he" is {Portuguese viceroy of India, Afonso de Albuquerque and it became a strategic base for Portuguese expansion in the East Indies}. I know very little about this area that I will not add this information back in, but it would be nice if this was expanded upon. Autkm 01:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The second smallest state? Probably population-wise. Check out the Wikipedia page about Penang.
is there anything we can write about malacca sugar (gula melaka)?
Reverting back to just Melaka, not Melaka, Negeri Bersejarah. I would go for the formal name under the state constitution or common accepted ones (read - postal address). If disagree, then would have to change the name of Bandar Melaka to Melaka Bandaraya Bersejarah and Johor Bahru to Johor Bahru Bandaraya Selatan, or Kuala Lumpur Garden City of Lights, just for the sake of being fair. :)
-- Bukhrin 20:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Can someone add climate section in the article, information can be obtained from NEA Singapore - http://app.nea.gov.sg/cms/htdocs/article.asp?pid=1106 For formatting, we can use the one from Kuala Lumpur or Penang. Sorry, I tried to do it myself, but failed miserably. Any taker? Mhching 13:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
There is an awkward space made by a column of pictures. Can someone fix this? Miller4math ( talk) 23:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC) . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.51.39.115 ( talk) 21:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
From my understanding, naming conversion of locations is defined by consensus in Wikipedia, not by governments. Hellboy2hell, having renamed the article from "Malacca" to its Malay counterpart, "Melaka", justified doing so based on Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka, a government body responsible for the use of Malay in the country. I do not support this move.
This is not merely for the reinstatement of the English translation but more of practical reasoning owing to the limited flexibility of the Malay name in English writing. "Melaka" conflicts with the "Malacca" as a
demonym (Malaccan). "Melaka", being Malay in origin, has no known way of being used as a demonym, hence the need to use "Malaccan" instead when required to write a demonym. However, spelling differences between the two means confusion in spelling may arise and compromises consistency in writing. I believe a discussion is need to address this. -
Two hundred percent (
talk) 08:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
While Malacca is commonly used in English language media in the country (Malaysia), since now the spelling has been changed to Melaka, there is a need to revert to its native spelling (Melaka). Similarly, when Bruce Jenner changed his/her name to Caitlyn Jenner, Wikipedia has been quick to adopt the new name while internet community is still learning about her new name. Dxmy ( talk) 15:44, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I think some of the article should be placed in the wiki article Malacca City instead of here?-- Rochelimit ( talk) 08:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
The name melaka came from a tree, when sultan mahmud shah sit under the tree he saw a small animal kicking a dog so he decide to name the place melaka.. melaka was conquered by alfonso de alburquerque... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.141.194.84 ( talk) 09:10, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. -- BDD ( talk) 18:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
– In WP:COMMONNAME says that to determine several alternative names, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, major scientific bodies and journals. Instances on the usage of 'Melaka' by some major organizations and scholars can be observed here:-
The result of the above RM was undoubtly predictable, given the state of the three articles - Malacca, Malacca City and Malacca Sultanate - which were trashes to begin with. However, what wonders me a lot is that, while WP place high regards to facts in verifying its contents, all my evidences pointing the use of "Melaka" by some major organizations were repeatedly ignored in the discussion, in favour of some google searches and some news sources contradicting themselves (having both spellings Melaka and Malacca in their contents). There was even an editor commenting that I haven't proved anything! LOL,thus implying that he didnt bother to read my evidences at all before making any decision. Is this the quality of editors that WP has in managing these articles? Then I doubt when these articles will ever improve. This RM won't be the last though. Sooner or later, I have the confidence that the old name "Melaka" will replace the colonial corrupted spelling name "Malacca" here, as the former is increasingly gaining ground globally, evidenced by below usage:
1) Major English dictionaries - these serve as a big slap to the face who repeatedly said that "Melaka is a Malay name, not English name"
2) Quality Encyclopedias
3) International organizations
4) Global Media
5) Academic writings
6) Official usage by state and federal government
7) Usage by key companies of Malaysia
Hi all,
Apparently the government of Malacca (now Melaka) has officially declared the English name for Malacca is now Melaka, as stated in the news: http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v8/ge/newsgeneral.php?id=1352712
Can you help move this page to Melaka article? Because in Melaka article, it has been redirected to Malacca article. Now we need to do the other way around.
Chongkian ( talk) 00:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
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The last sentence of the lede isn't supported by the sources cited. Malacca is ethnically diverse, certainly, but statements regarding harmony and ambience need to be based on something that actually says the same thing, if not necessarily in those exact words. If nobody comes up with such a source (which might be hard to find in anything beyond a tourist brochure, I'd suspect) I'll remove it. 165.120.15.66 ( talk) 06:34, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
What does this sentence mean? "The Orang Asli languages spoken within Malacca are mostly speakers of the Temuan language." -- 47.54.6.137 ( talk) 00:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
Current title: Malacca
Proposed title: Melaka
Previous discussions result: Declined (2 December 2012)
Previous discussion participants:(I hope this is okay/correct, as I am still a noob at Wikipedia):
In 2017, the Melaka State Executive Council formally adopted "Melaka" as its official English spelling. [1] This decision reflects the state's desire for internal consistency and a strengthened cultural identity. Since then, "Melaka" has seen increasing usage within government bodies, media outlets, and throughout the state itself.
"Melaka State Secretary Datuk Seri Naim Abu Bakar said that all newspapers and the media, whether Bahasa Malaysia, English or any other language, shall use Melaka in writing or when mentioning the state. "This is intended to standardise the use of the name Melaka, especially in English," he said in a statement here today
NST Online
This proposal outlines the reasons for aligning Wikipedia's naming conventions with this official designation. It will explore the historical usage of both spellings, consider precedents set by similar name changes, and address potential counterarguments. The emphasis is on Wikipedia's commitment to accuracy and respecting official naming practices.
The official name change by the Melaka state government is the catalyst for this shift. Major media outlets, and increasingly the public, are aligning with the state's current official designation.
Wikipedia's role here is to reflect current realities, as well as mirroring the past. I do apologise beforehand if I got anything in incorrect formats, quotes, etc.
This trend extends beyond government entities and into the wider media landscape. Major English newspaper outlets has been adopting Melaka name.
Here are the latest updates in 2024:
However, I have tried to contact some who used Malacca in their English publication, to ask their reasoning in using it, despite Melaka has been used in many English newspapers and continue to increase in its presence post-2017's announcement.
While the current trend clearly favors "Melaka," the name's usage has a more complex historical background. To understand this evolution, let's take a look at findings from archives on Google Books about Melaka and Malacca.
The Telegraph-Herald and Times-Journal from 1930 references 'Melaka [2],' while 'Malacca [3]' can be found as early as 1766 in The Halifax Gazette. This timeline suggests a more complex history of usage than a simple 'English vs. Malay' distinction. If there is evidence from other historical sources (particularly private or registered archives) that further clarifies or nullify this history, I welcome their consideration(s).
. . .Talk by Miss Della Olson, missionary from Melaka, Malay: [2]. . .
"The language that is spoken among all the people, from what place forever they originally came is the Malay. . .and probably it is a corrupt dialect of that spoken at Malacca. Every little island indeed has a language of its own and Java has two or three, but this Lingua Franca is the only language that is now spoken here, and, as I am told, it prevails over a great part of the East Indies. A dictionary of Malay and English was published in London by Thomas Bowrey in the year 1701." [3] [4]
The earliest known data that I can get my hands on when talking about the relation of Portuguese and Melaka is in a French newspaper written by Willem Lodewijcksz
Page of Melaka Historic City Council uses "Melaka" [5] while not denying the old name "Malacca" in the speech of current Mayor [6].
Further, UNESCO recognizes the distinction between "Melaka" (the state) and the "Strait of Malacca". [7] [8] This was also announced back in 2008 in the Malaysia Tourism government website.
The Melaka state government has formally adopted the name 'Melaka', as seen on their website ( https://www.melaka.gov.my) and in their tourism campaign 'Visit Melaka 2024' ( https://www.visitmelaka.com.my) which is this has already started and was already announced in March 2023 [9].
MELAKA.gov.my has been recorded of its name in Wayback Machine as early as 21 Apr 1998 and using Melaka in its English version [10]. This was way back before the official announcement. There is no malacca.gov.my has been found in any web archive websites so far.
if you search "visit malacca 2024", it will ask " Did you mean: visit melaka 2024" in Google. Same goes with other search engines, for example Bing or DuckDuckGo.
The reliability of numerical search results is questionable. Google's search filters appear to produce inconsistent totals. Notably, in Google Books, " Books" and " Any documents" often yield identical results for both "Malacca" and "Melaka." or any search results. But there are few additional numbers when you select "Magazines" or "Newspaper". This makes the 73 magazines and 11,300 newspaper results obtained for "Malacca" seem impossible, as they should be included within the 'Any documents' total.
While historical Google Books data might favor "Malacca," focusing solely on the past ignores the present reality. Even within 21st-century publications, "Melaka" (excluding "strait(s)") has a significant presence with 176,000 results, as shown in table below.
In a spirit of data transparency, and taking only 21st century search results from Google books are:
malacca | malacca -strait -straits | melaka | melaka -strait -straits |
---|---|---|---|
577,000 [11] | 310,000 [12] | 228,000 [13] | 176,000 [14] |
Google News results clearly demonstrate a substantial shift towards "Melaka." A search for "Malacca" currently yields 598 results, while "Melaka" yields 11,100 results. This reflects a rapidly changing landscape in how news outlets refer to the state. Before you say "but wait, that's not all in English", I just would like to remind that this is to show if the word is being used globally, NOT just English.
However, do note that this is not the matter which spelling have more in the news, or which spelling is "historically completely dominant", but to show that the media as of date has already using Melaka to denote it as a state in English mediums.
Wikipedia's commitment to accuracy aligns with using official names designated by governing bodies. Some of the examples:
1. Mumbai/ Bombay (India): This is evident in the Mumbai (formerly Bombay) example by Shahrulazwad
2. Aceh/ Acheh (Indonesia): Aceh (sometimes referred to as ' Acheh') examples, demonstrating the importance of reflecting current designations regardless of historical usage.
3. Rhode Island/ Rhode Island and providence plantations (United States): Similarly, U.S. states like Rhode Island maintain their official names despite historical variants within their constitution, reinforcing their autonomy in how they are represented.
4. Porto/ Oporto (Portugal): Both "Oporto" and "Malacca" are older, anglicised spellings rooted in the colonial era. "Porto" and "Melaka" are the official names, reflecting Portuguese and Malay linguistic origins respectively. This change, although smaller, shows a shift toward respecting the native-language designation.
5. Jakarta/ Batavia (Indonesia): Batavia was the Dutch colonial name for the capital of Indonesia. After independence, the official name shifted to Jakarta, the native Indonesian designation. Wikipedia even have Old Batavia which is now commonly known as Kota Tua Jakarta. How amazing is that?! (btw, kudos Indo wikipedians, those pages are very thoroughly written)
6. Yangon/ Rangoon(Myanmar): The former capital of Myanmar was known as Rangoon under British rule. In 1989, the military government officially changed the name to Yangon, a closer representation of the Burmese pronunciation. Does this imply that Wikipedia allows a name change as long as it happened before the existence of Wikipedia site?
7. Ho Chi Minh City/ Saigon (Vietnam): While both names are now used, this example is more complex. Saigon, the name associated with the French colonial era, remains common in everyday speech. Ho Chi Minh City is the official name, declared after reunification to honor a revolutionary leader.
8. Thailand/ Siam: while not a state, it demonstrates Wikipedia's commitment to reflecting current official names, even when these differ from historical spellings. This principle should likewise apply to changing 'Malacca' to 'Melaka.'
Many of these cases involve a shift from an exonym (a name used by outsiders) to an endonym (the name used by the people who live there). This concept is relevant to "Malacca/Melaka." Some changes involve significant spelling differences (Batavia/Jakarta), others are more about pronunciation (Rangoon/Yangon). The Malacca/Melaka shift is somewhat in between the two.
As highlighted by @ Chongkian, the swift global adoption of ' Burj Khalifa' (formerly Burj Dubai) and ' Willis Tower' (formerly Sears Tower) demonstrates precedent for embracing name changes led by official bodies. It underscores that widespread public awareness is not a prerequisite for a Wikipedia page name change.
@ Chongkian "Burj Dubai was unanimously changed to Burj Khalifa, thus the whole world followed Immediately. Sears Tower was unanimously changed to Willis Tower, thus the whole world followed Immediately. They didn't wait until everyone realizes/knows the new name change or when the whole world agree to accept it.
This proposal aligns with Wikipedia's core principles of accuracy, reliance on verifiable sources ( WP:RS), and using official names ( WP:OFFICIALNAMES). Adopting "Melaka," the official name formally established by the Melaka Historic City Council [15] [16] [17], reflects these commitments. While "Malacca" might have greater historical usage, Wikipedia's policy on common names ( WP:COMMONNAMES) and WP:NCGN acknowledges cases where official names superseded previous common ones. Precedents like Mumbai (formerly Bombay) and Aceh further illustrate this. Prioritising the official name "Melaka" supports a neutral point of view ( WP:NPOV), ensuring Wikipedia reflects current realities rather than solely emphasising historical usage. If I am wrong with this statement and the links to the Wikipedia guideline pages, kindly inform me.
Anyway, in light of these principles, the shift towards 'Melaka' as evidenced both by the state government and reputable media sources warrants its adoption as the Wikipedia page title. A redirect from ‘Malacca’ ensures accessibility while prioritising the current official name.
"Oh please, the Portuguese and English were spelling it this way long before most natives even knew how to write."
It's important to acknowledge that the earliest known Google Books results for 'Malacca' and 'Portuguese' primarily originate from the colonial period. A 1598 text [18], published roughly 90 years after the conquest of Melaka in 1511, provides an early example. These sources inherently reflect European perspectives and priorities, rather than those of the local inhabitants. They demonstrate how colonial powers often imposed their language and naming practices. It's crucial to remember that these historical records don't necessarily represent the definitive or self-chosen names used by the people of Melaka themselves.
For a more complete understanding of naming practices, it's essential to consider sources like the Sejarah Melayu ( Malay Annals). Despite being compiled later and in Jawi script, this work offers valuable insights into local perspectives on identity and place-names that are often overshadowed by colonial sources. The word 'ملاک' (Melak) can be spelled as Malaka/Malak/Melak/Melaka depending on your understanding of Jawi script.
The Malay Annals publication date is listed as 17 February 1873 in the US Library of Congress [19], with the text located in the British Library. If this reflects the first time it was documented, and given Tun Sri Lanang's lifespan throughout the 17th century, publication would have occurred roughly 280 years after its creation.
However, this conflicts with John Leyden's readily available translation, published in 1821. It's possible this date reflects the work's submission to the British Library. Unfortunately, as the British Library was hacked last year [20] [21], we currently have limited data beyond the US Library of Congress link. Until this is resolved, John Leyden retains his status as the first translator of the Malay Annals in 1821.
The Hikayat Bayan Budiman (English: "The Tale of Bayan Budiman") was translated from Sanskrit to Persian, and then into Malay by Kadi Hassan in 773 AH (1371 AD) [22]. This would have been written in Jawi script, as the Roman alphabet only arrived in the Malay Archipelago with European colonisers. R.O Windstedt finally published Bayan's story in 1966, using manuscripts dated 1852 and 1849.
Therefore, native peoples do possess literacy skills long before the arrival of the Portuguese and other colonials, just not in a Romanised form. That came much later. [23] [24]
--
This is why it's important to still uphold the usage of Malacca for past archival, but not the present one.
I am not calling for Malacca to be removed from the content, just on the names of places and things that should have changed their name to use Melaka in the present time.
It's misleading to claim that 'Malacca' is inherently an English name while 'Melaka' is exclusively Malay as shown in earlier examples of name mention found in Google Books archive above. Melaka is the state's official name and is used in English-language communication by the state government and major media outlets. To uphold 'Malacca' in the Malaysian constitution while other states such as Johor (then Johore) have standardised English spellings undermines this principle and creates internal inconsistency. Applying the same respect for self-determination shown in these cases strengthens the argument for adopting 'Melaka.'
Changing the Wikipedia page title to "Melaka" reinforces its alignment with the state's official name, promotes consistency throughout Wikipedia, and avoids potential confusion for readers.
The goal is to prevent future confusion. Using the official name provides long-term clarity for researchers, regardless of how common the spelling is at this exact moment. While Wikipedia acknowledges the historical significance of the term “Malacca,” respecting the current official name adopted by the Melaka state government takes precedence. A redirect from "Malacca" to "Melaka" again will ensure easy access for all users. As evidenced throughout this proposal, this change is increasingly reflected in media and institutional usage.
While some might argue that historical usage is sufficient, a lack of standardisation can create confusion for future researchers. Imagine a researcher or an archiver in the future encountering both spellings in documents without a clear understanding of the state's official name change.
For example: A researcher 50 years from now might encounter documents from the early 21st century using both "Malacca" and "Melaka."
Without standardisation, this could lead to uncertainty about whether these refer to the same entity or potentially different locations.
It's understandable to value the historical resonance of 'Malacca' or its usage on specific entities like the ' Malacca City Council'. However, languages evolve, and official recognition by a government/council carries weight. We can acknowledge the past while embracing the current and future direction of 'Melaka' as the state's official name spelling as being shown with the welcome message by the current Melaka mayor. While the origins of 'Malacca' are linked to a colonial past, respecting the current official name 'Melaka' reflects the state's right to self-determination in the present.
Ultimately, adopting 'Melaka' promotes clarity (avoiding confusion with the Strait), demonstrates respect for the state's decision, and creates a more consistent global image for Melaka. Melaka is indeed a currently used state name in Malaysia, while Malacca is an old name that no one wants to erase from the history be it "English origin".
At the current moment, the Strait of Malacca will be the same function as "Strait of Gibraltar" or "English Channel", so there should not be Malacca Straits Mosque but it's Malacca Strait Mosque. It's akin to say in Malay instead of Masjid Selat Melaka [25], and because of Wikipedia, it turned to plural ("Masjid Selat-Selat Melaka"), which does not make sense. It's making sense when you put it in Straits Settlements as it means "Negeri-negeri Selat" which is in plural, and correct.
Therefore, in English it would be "Malacca Strait Mosque". Not Malacca Straits Mosque. There's unfortunately only one mosque there with the name, thus the usage of "Strait" as opposed to "Straits"
Precedent in Wikipedia: Despite there are people using the " Straits of Gibraltar [26]," Wikipedia recognise Strait of Gibraltar and allow "Straits of Gibraltar" to be mentioned as the old name. Again, I hope this is not due to "how much the results in search engine(s)" but after thorough discussion. People who are writing it as Malacca Straits in the past may or may not equate the usage of "Straits" in newspapers (namely New Straits Times or The Straits Times) which is a brand proper noun now more than a place. It's either Malacca Strait or Strait of Malacca, and neither should use plurals in it. "Strait" is one and "Straits" is many. We can all work together and minimise or eliminate these confusions at least in Wikipedia pages.
@ Hongqilim's extensive history of changing titles and moving pages to 'Malacca' between February 2021 and August 2023 highlights the urgent need to align Wikipedia's content with the official name change. Since the 2012 proposal rejection [27], two ignored requests on 16 December 2012 and 4 May 2017; and the state's subsequent 2017 formal adoption of 'Melaka,' these changes were made without current official backing. Since this editor has been banned, it's crucial for the community to review and address these inconsistencies. [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42]
Other move by others:
This name change is about more than a location on a map; it's about respecting the right of a state to define its own identity. The evidence is overwhelming: from the state's official declaration to the shift in how it's represented in the media, "Melaka" is the name it has chosen for itself. Wikipedia has a responsibility to reflect the world as it is, not just how it was. By adopting "Melaka," with a redirect from "Malacca" to preserve historical context, we uphold Wikipedia's core values. This isn't just about accuracy; it's about acknowledging that names hold power, and places, like people, deserve the dignity of being called what they call themselves.
I can put some of the name of Malacca in Wikipedia but Melaka in major news outlets, but I think my comment here is a tad long already...
I believe this is a decision that needs votes and a good discussion once and for all, and I hope that my references are suffice for an approval.
Thanks. nMyghet ( talk) 13:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
"At the moment, I see no clear evidence that there is increasing use of Melaka in English language books..."
"...a lot of the English-language ones that use Melaka have Malaysian authors or publishers, which would suggest outside of Malaysia or its neighbors, Malacca is the one that is used preferentially."
"Since the Strait of Malacca is almost always spelt Malacca, you can argue that Melaka refers to the state, Malacca to the strait..."
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{subst:requested move|Melaka|reason=It's no longer deemed as an English name but an official name. Malacca is the old name, and no one is denying that. Rationale and recent discussion: Talk:Malacca#Request for Wikipedia Page Name Change from Malacca to Melaka (2024)}} nMyghet ( talk) 11:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
{{subst:requested move|Melaka|reason=Melaka is the native name and also the officially recognised English name. Melaka is now commonly used for the state even in English language media, especially in Malaysia, while Malacca is more commonly used for the strait. Article on the state should therefore use Melaka rather than Malacca. Previous move request and discussions are in the talk page.}}. Do not add <nowiki></nowiki> or any other unnecessary wiki markup. Keep the request simple and neutral, anything more you want to add can be given later. Hzh ( talk) 13:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
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On 2 December 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to Melaka. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The European History section begins, "In April 1511, he set sail from Goa to Malacca..." What should it say? -- Jere7my 23:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
From looking at older edits, it would appear that "he" is {Portuguese viceroy of India, Afonso de Albuquerque and it became a strategic base for Portuguese expansion in the East Indies}. I know very little about this area that I will not add this information back in, but it would be nice if this was expanded upon. Autkm 01:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The second smallest state? Probably population-wise. Check out the Wikipedia page about Penang.
is there anything we can write about malacca sugar (gula melaka)?
Reverting back to just Melaka, not Melaka, Negeri Bersejarah. I would go for the formal name under the state constitution or common accepted ones (read - postal address). If disagree, then would have to change the name of Bandar Melaka to Melaka Bandaraya Bersejarah and Johor Bahru to Johor Bahru Bandaraya Selatan, or Kuala Lumpur Garden City of Lights, just for the sake of being fair. :)
-- Bukhrin 20:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Can someone add climate section in the article, information can be obtained from NEA Singapore - http://app.nea.gov.sg/cms/htdocs/article.asp?pid=1106 For formatting, we can use the one from Kuala Lumpur or Penang. Sorry, I tried to do it myself, but failed miserably. Any taker? Mhching 13:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
There is an awkward space made by a column of pictures. Can someone fix this? Miller4math ( talk) 23:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC) . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.51.39.115 ( talk) 21:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
From my understanding, naming conversion of locations is defined by consensus in Wikipedia, not by governments. Hellboy2hell, having renamed the article from "Malacca" to its Malay counterpart, "Melaka", justified doing so based on Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka, a government body responsible for the use of Malay in the country. I do not support this move.
This is not merely for the reinstatement of the English translation but more of practical reasoning owing to the limited flexibility of the Malay name in English writing. "Melaka" conflicts with the "Malacca" as a
demonym (Malaccan). "Melaka", being Malay in origin, has no known way of being used as a demonym, hence the need to use "Malaccan" instead when required to write a demonym. However, spelling differences between the two means confusion in spelling may arise and compromises consistency in writing. I believe a discussion is need to address this. -
Two hundred percent (
talk) 08:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
While Malacca is commonly used in English language media in the country (Malaysia), since now the spelling has been changed to Melaka, there is a need to revert to its native spelling (Melaka). Similarly, when Bruce Jenner changed his/her name to Caitlyn Jenner, Wikipedia has been quick to adopt the new name while internet community is still learning about her new name. Dxmy ( talk) 15:44, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I think some of the article should be placed in the wiki article Malacca City instead of here?-- Rochelimit ( talk) 08:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
The name melaka came from a tree, when sultan mahmud shah sit under the tree he saw a small animal kicking a dog so he decide to name the place melaka.. melaka was conquered by alfonso de alburquerque... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.141.194.84 ( talk) 09:10, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. -- BDD ( talk) 18:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
– In WP:COMMONNAME says that to determine several alternative names, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, major scientific bodies and journals. Instances on the usage of 'Melaka' by some major organizations and scholars can be observed here:-
The result of the above RM was undoubtly predictable, given the state of the three articles - Malacca, Malacca City and Malacca Sultanate - which were trashes to begin with. However, what wonders me a lot is that, while WP place high regards to facts in verifying its contents, all my evidences pointing the use of "Melaka" by some major organizations were repeatedly ignored in the discussion, in favour of some google searches and some news sources contradicting themselves (having both spellings Melaka and Malacca in their contents). There was even an editor commenting that I haven't proved anything! LOL,thus implying that he didnt bother to read my evidences at all before making any decision. Is this the quality of editors that WP has in managing these articles? Then I doubt when these articles will ever improve. This RM won't be the last though. Sooner or later, I have the confidence that the old name "Melaka" will replace the colonial corrupted spelling name "Malacca" here, as the former is increasingly gaining ground globally, evidenced by below usage:
1) Major English dictionaries - these serve as a big slap to the face who repeatedly said that "Melaka is a Malay name, not English name"
2) Quality Encyclopedias
3) International organizations
4) Global Media
5) Academic writings
6) Official usage by state and federal government
7) Usage by key companies of Malaysia
Hi all,
Apparently the government of Malacca (now Melaka) has officially declared the English name for Malacca is now Melaka, as stated in the news: http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v8/ge/newsgeneral.php?id=1352712
Can you help move this page to Melaka article? Because in Melaka article, it has been redirected to Malacca article. Now we need to do the other way around.
Chongkian ( talk) 00:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
References
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The last sentence of the lede isn't supported by the sources cited. Malacca is ethnically diverse, certainly, but statements regarding harmony and ambience need to be based on something that actually says the same thing, if not necessarily in those exact words. If nobody comes up with such a source (which might be hard to find in anything beyond a tourist brochure, I'd suspect) I'll remove it. 165.120.15.66 ( talk) 06:34, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
What does this sentence mean? "The Orang Asli languages spoken within Malacca are mostly speakers of the Temuan language." -- 47.54.6.137 ( talk) 00:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
Current title: Malacca
Proposed title: Melaka
Previous discussions result: Declined (2 December 2012)
Previous discussion participants:(I hope this is okay/correct, as I am still a noob at Wikipedia):
In 2017, the Melaka State Executive Council formally adopted "Melaka" as its official English spelling. [1] This decision reflects the state's desire for internal consistency and a strengthened cultural identity. Since then, "Melaka" has seen increasing usage within government bodies, media outlets, and throughout the state itself.
"Melaka State Secretary Datuk Seri Naim Abu Bakar said that all newspapers and the media, whether Bahasa Malaysia, English or any other language, shall use Melaka in writing or when mentioning the state. "This is intended to standardise the use of the name Melaka, especially in English," he said in a statement here today
NST Online
This proposal outlines the reasons for aligning Wikipedia's naming conventions with this official designation. It will explore the historical usage of both spellings, consider precedents set by similar name changes, and address potential counterarguments. The emphasis is on Wikipedia's commitment to accuracy and respecting official naming practices.
The official name change by the Melaka state government is the catalyst for this shift. Major media outlets, and increasingly the public, are aligning with the state's current official designation.
Wikipedia's role here is to reflect current realities, as well as mirroring the past. I do apologise beforehand if I got anything in incorrect formats, quotes, etc.
This trend extends beyond government entities and into the wider media landscape. Major English newspaper outlets has been adopting Melaka name.
Here are the latest updates in 2024:
However, I have tried to contact some who used Malacca in their English publication, to ask their reasoning in using it, despite Melaka has been used in many English newspapers and continue to increase in its presence post-2017's announcement.
While the current trend clearly favors "Melaka," the name's usage has a more complex historical background. To understand this evolution, let's take a look at findings from archives on Google Books about Melaka and Malacca.
The Telegraph-Herald and Times-Journal from 1930 references 'Melaka [2],' while 'Malacca [3]' can be found as early as 1766 in The Halifax Gazette. This timeline suggests a more complex history of usage than a simple 'English vs. Malay' distinction. If there is evidence from other historical sources (particularly private or registered archives) that further clarifies or nullify this history, I welcome their consideration(s).
. . .Talk by Miss Della Olson, missionary from Melaka, Malay: [2]. . .
"The language that is spoken among all the people, from what place forever they originally came is the Malay. . .and probably it is a corrupt dialect of that spoken at Malacca. Every little island indeed has a language of its own and Java has two or three, but this Lingua Franca is the only language that is now spoken here, and, as I am told, it prevails over a great part of the East Indies. A dictionary of Malay and English was published in London by Thomas Bowrey in the year 1701." [3] [4]
The earliest known data that I can get my hands on when talking about the relation of Portuguese and Melaka is in a French newspaper written by Willem Lodewijcksz
Page of Melaka Historic City Council uses "Melaka" [5] while not denying the old name "Malacca" in the speech of current Mayor [6].
Further, UNESCO recognizes the distinction between "Melaka" (the state) and the "Strait of Malacca". [7] [8] This was also announced back in 2008 in the Malaysia Tourism government website.
The Melaka state government has formally adopted the name 'Melaka', as seen on their website ( https://www.melaka.gov.my) and in their tourism campaign 'Visit Melaka 2024' ( https://www.visitmelaka.com.my) which is this has already started and was already announced in March 2023 [9].
MELAKA.gov.my has been recorded of its name in Wayback Machine as early as 21 Apr 1998 and using Melaka in its English version [10]. This was way back before the official announcement. There is no malacca.gov.my has been found in any web archive websites so far.
if you search "visit malacca 2024", it will ask " Did you mean: visit melaka 2024" in Google. Same goes with other search engines, for example Bing or DuckDuckGo.
The reliability of numerical search results is questionable. Google's search filters appear to produce inconsistent totals. Notably, in Google Books, " Books" and " Any documents" often yield identical results for both "Malacca" and "Melaka." or any search results. But there are few additional numbers when you select "Magazines" or "Newspaper". This makes the 73 magazines and 11,300 newspaper results obtained for "Malacca" seem impossible, as they should be included within the 'Any documents' total.
While historical Google Books data might favor "Malacca," focusing solely on the past ignores the present reality. Even within 21st-century publications, "Melaka" (excluding "strait(s)") has a significant presence with 176,000 results, as shown in table below.
In a spirit of data transparency, and taking only 21st century search results from Google books are:
malacca | malacca -strait -straits | melaka | melaka -strait -straits |
---|---|---|---|
577,000 [11] | 310,000 [12] | 228,000 [13] | 176,000 [14] |
Google News results clearly demonstrate a substantial shift towards "Melaka." A search for "Malacca" currently yields 598 results, while "Melaka" yields 11,100 results. This reflects a rapidly changing landscape in how news outlets refer to the state. Before you say "but wait, that's not all in English", I just would like to remind that this is to show if the word is being used globally, NOT just English.
However, do note that this is not the matter which spelling have more in the news, or which spelling is "historically completely dominant", but to show that the media as of date has already using Melaka to denote it as a state in English mediums.
Wikipedia's commitment to accuracy aligns with using official names designated by governing bodies. Some of the examples:
1. Mumbai/ Bombay (India): This is evident in the Mumbai (formerly Bombay) example by Shahrulazwad
2. Aceh/ Acheh (Indonesia): Aceh (sometimes referred to as ' Acheh') examples, demonstrating the importance of reflecting current designations regardless of historical usage.
3. Rhode Island/ Rhode Island and providence plantations (United States): Similarly, U.S. states like Rhode Island maintain their official names despite historical variants within their constitution, reinforcing their autonomy in how they are represented.
4. Porto/ Oporto (Portugal): Both "Oporto" and "Malacca" are older, anglicised spellings rooted in the colonial era. "Porto" and "Melaka" are the official names, reflecting Portuguese and Malay linguistic origins respectively. This change, although smaller, shows a shift toward respecting the native-language designation.
5. Jakarta/ Batavia (Indonesia): Batavia was the Dutch colonial name for the capital of Indonesia. After independence, the official name shifted to Jakarta, the native Indonesian designation. Wikipedia even have Old Batavia which is now commonly known as Kota Tua Jakarta. How amazing is that?! (btw, kudos Indo wikipedians, those pages are very thoroughly written)
6. Yangon/ Rangoon(Myanmar): The former capital of Myanmar was known as Rangoon under British rule. In 1989, the military government officially changed the name to Yangon, a closer representation of the Burmese pronunciation. Does this imply that Wikipedia allows a name change as long as it happened before the existence of Wikipedia site?
7. Ho Chi Minh City/ Saigon (Vietnam): While both names are now used, this example is more complex. Saigon, the name associated with the French colonial era, remains common in everyday speech. Ho Chi Minh City is the official name, declared after reunification to honor a revolutionary leader.
8. Thailand/ Siam: while not a state, it demonstrates Wikipedia's commitment to reflecting current official names, even when these differ from historical spellings. This principle should likewise apply to changing 'Malacca' to 'Melaka.'
Many of these cases involve a shift from an exonym (a name used by outsiders) to an endonym (the name used by the people who live there). This concept is relevant to "Malacca/Melaka." Some changes involve significant spelling differences (Batavia/Jakarta), others are more about pronunciation (Rangoon/Yangon). The Malacca/Melaka shift is somewhat in between the two.
As highlighted by @ Chongkian, the swift global adoption of ' Burj Khalifa' (formerly Burj Dubai) and ' Willis Tower' (formerly Sears Tower) demonstrates precedent for embracing name changes led by official bodies. It underscores that widespread public awareness is not a prerequisite for a Wikipedia page name change.
@ Chongkian "Burj Dubai was unanimously changed to Burj Khalifa, thus the whole world followed Immediately. Sears Tower was unanimously changed to Willis Tower, thus the whole world followed Immediately. They didn't wait until everyone realizes/knows the new name change or when the whole world agree to accept it.
This proposal aligns with Wikipedia's core principles of accuracy, reliance on verifiable sources ( WP:RS), and using official names ( WP:OFFICIALNAMES). Adopting "Melaka," the official name formally established by the Melaka Historic City Council [15] [16] [17], reflects these commitments. While "Malacca" might have greater historical usage, Wikipedia's policy on common names ( WP:COMMONNAMES) and WP:NCGN acknowledges cases where official names superseded previous common ones. Precedents like Mumbai (formerly Bombay) and Aceh further illustrate this. Prioritising the official name "Melaka" supports a neutral point of view ( WP:NPOV), ensuring Wikipedia reflects current realities rather than solely emphasising historical usage. If I am wrong with this statement and the links to the Wikipedia guideline pages, kindly inform me.
Anyway, in light of these principles, the shift towards 'Melaka' as evidenced both by the state government and reputable media sources warrants its adoption as the Wikipedia page title. A redirect from ‘Malacca’ ensures accessibility while prioritising the current official name.
"Oh please, the Portuguese and English were spelling it this way long before most natives even knew how to write."
It's important to acknowledge that the earliest known Google Books results for 'Malacca' and 'Portuguese' primarily originate from the colonial period. A 1598 text [18], published roughly 90 years after the conquest of Melaka in 1511, provides an early example. These sources inherently reflect European perspectives and priorities, rather than those of the local inhabitants. They demonstrate how colonial powers often imposed their language and naming practices. It's crucial to remember that these historical records don't necessarily represent the definitive or self-chosen names used by the people of Melaka themselves.
For a more complete understanding of naming practices, it's essential to consider sources like the Sejarah Melayu ( Malay Annals). Despite being compiled later and in Jawi script, this work offers valuable insights into local perspectives on identity and place-names that are often overshadowed by colonial sources. The word 'ملاک' (Melak) can be spelled as Malaka/Malak/Melak/Melaka depending on your understanding of Jawi script.
The Malay Annals publication date is listed as 17 February 1873 in the US Library of Congress [19], with the text located in the British Library. If this reflects the first time it was documented, and given Tun Sri Lanang's lifespan throughout the 17th century, publication would have occurred roughly 280 years after its creation.
However, this conflicts with John Leyden's readily available translation, published in 1821. It's possible this date reflects the work's submission to the British Library. Unfortunately, as the British Library was hacked last year [20] [21], we currently have limited data beyond the US Library of Congress link. Until this is resolved, John Leyden retains his status as the first translator of the Malay Annals in 1821.
The Hikayat Bayan Budiman (English: "The Tale of Bayan Budiman") was translated from Sanskrit to Persian, and then into Malay by Kadi Hassan in 773 AH (1371 AD) [22]. This would have been written in Jawi script, as the Roman alphabet only arrived in the Malay Archipelago with European colonisers. R.O Windstedt finally published Bayan's story in 1966, using manuscripts dated 1852 and 1849.
Therefore, native peoples do possess literacy skills long before the arrival of the Portuguese and other colonials, just not in a Romanised form. That came much later. [23] [24]
--
This is why it's important to still uphold the usage of Malacca for past archival, but not the present one.
I am not calling for Malacca to be removed from the content, just on the names of places and things that should have changed their name to use Melaka in the present time.
It's misleading to claim that 'Malacca' is inherently an English name while 'Melaka' is exclusively Malay as shown in earlier examples of name mention found in Google Books archive above. Melaka is the state's official name and is used in English-language communication by the state government and major media outlets. To uphold 'Malacca' in the Malaysian constitution while other states such as Johor (then Johore) have standardised English spellings undermines this principle and creates internal inconsistency. Applying the same respect for self-determination shown in these cases strengthens the argument for adopting 'Melaka.'
Changing the Wikipedia page title to "Melaka" reinforces its alignment with the state's official name, promotes consistency throughout Wikipedia, and avoids potential confusion for readers.
The goal is to prevent future confusion. Using the official name provides long-term clarity for researchers, regardless of how common the spelling is at this exact moment. While Wikipedia acknowledges the historical significance of the term “Malacca,” respecting the current official name adopted by the Melaka state government takes precedence. A redirect from "Malacca" to "Melaka" again will ensure easy access for all users. As evidenced throughout this proposal, this change is increasingly reflected in media and institutional usage.
While some might argue that historical usage is sufficient, a lack of standardisation can create confusion for future researchers. Imagine a researcher or an archiver in the future encountering both spellings in documents without a clear understanding of the state's official name change.
For example: A researcher 50 years from now might encounter documents from the early 21st century using both "Malacca" and "Melaka."
Without standardisation, this could lead to uncertainty about whether these refer to the same entity or potentially different locations.
It's understandable to value the historical resonance of 'Malacca' or its usage on specific entities like the ' Malacca City Council'. However, languages evolve, and official recognition by a government/council carries weight. We can acknowledge the past while embracing the current and future direction of 'Melaka' as the state's official name spelling as being shown with the welcome message by the current Melaka mayor. While the origins of 'Malacca' are linked to a colonial past, respecting the current official name 'Melaka' reflects the state's right to self-determination in the present.
Ultimately, adopting 'Melaka' promotes clarity (avoiding confusion with the Strait), demonstrates respect for the state's decision, and creates a more consistent global image for Melaka. Melaka is indeed a currently used state name in Malaysia, while Malacca is an old name that no one wants to erase from the history be it "English origin".
At the current moment, the Strait of Malacca will be the same function as "Strait of Gibraltar" or "English Channel", so there should not be Malacca Straits Mosque but it's Malacca Strait Mosque. It's akin to say in Malay instead of Masjid Selat Melaka [25], and because of Wikipedia, it turned to plural ("Masjid Selat-Selat Melaka"), which does not make sense. It's making sense when you put it in Straits Settlements as it means "Negeri-negeri Selat" which is in plural, and correct.
Therefore, in English it would be "Malacca Strait Mosque". Not Malacca Straits Mosque. There's unfortunately only one mosque there with the name, thus the usage of "Strait" as opposed to "Straits"
Precedent in Wikipedia: Despite there are people using the " Straits of Gibraltar [26]," Wikipedia recognise Strait of Gibraltar and allow "Straits of Gibraltar" to be mentioned as the old name. Again, I hope this is not due to "how much the results in search engine(s)" but after thorough discussion. People who are writing it as Malacca Straits in the past may or may not equate the usage of "Straits" in newspapers (namely New Straits Times or The Straits Times) which is a brand proper noun now more than a place. It's either Malacca Strait or Strait of Malacca, and neither should use plurals in it. "Strait" is one and "Straits" is many. We can all work together and minimise or eliminate these confusions at least in Wikipedia pages.
@ Hongqilim's extensive history of changing titles and moving pages to 'Malacca' between February 2021 and August 2023 highlights the urgent need to align Wikipedia's content with the official name change. Since the 2012 proposal rejection [27], two ignored requests on 16 December 2012 and 4 May 2017; and the state's subsequent 2017 formal adoption of 'Melaka,' these changes were made without current official backing. Since this editor has been banned, it's crucial for the community to review and address these inconsistencies. [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42]
Other move by others:
This name change is about more than a location on a map; it's about respecting the right of a state to define its own identity. The evidence is overwhelming: from the state's official declaration to the shift in how it's represented in the media, "Melaka" is the name it has chosen for itself. Wikipedia has a responsibility to reflect the world as it is, not just how it was. By adopting "Melaka," with a redirect from "Malacca" to preserve historical context, we uphold Wikipedia's core values. This isn't just about accuracy; it's about acknowledging that names hold power, and places, like people, deserve the dignity of being called what they call themselves.
I can put some of the name of Malacca in Wikipedia but Melaka in major news outlets, but I think my comment here is a tad long already...
I believe this is a decision that needs votes and a good discussion once and for all, and I hope that my references are suffice for an approval.
Thanks. nMyghet ( talk) 13:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
"At the moment, I see no clear evidence that there is increasing use of Melaka in English language books..."
"...a lot of the English-language ones that use Melaka have Malaysian authors or publishers, which would suggest outside of Malaysia or its neighbors, Malacca is the one that is used preferentially."
"Since the Strait of Malacca is almost always spelt Malacca, you can argue that Melaka refers to the state, Malacca to the strait..."
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{subst:requested move|Melaka|reason=It's no longer deemed as an English name but an official name. Malacca is the old name, and no one is denying that. Rationale and recent discussion: Talk:Malacca#Request for Wikipedia Page Name Change from Malacca to Melaka (2024)}} nMyghet ( talk) 11:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
{{subst:requested move|Melaka|reason=Melaka is the native name and also the officially recognised English name. Melaka is now commonly used for the state even in English language media, especially in Malaysia, while Malacca is more commonly used for the strait. Article on the state should therefore use Melaka rather than Malacca. Previous move request and discussions are in the talk page.}}. Do not add <nowiki></nowiki> or any other unnecessary wiki markup. Keep the request simple and neutral, anything more you want to add can be given later. Hzh ( talk) 13:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)