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Fixed some typos... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.0.74.73 ( talk) 10:03, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
"Magical practitioners on the Disc (of the Discword series) are rare, and often innate (with exceptions - the eighth son of an eighth son must become a wizard, even if the son is a daughter), and do require some form of training (again, with exceptions - see Sourcery). Also, magical practitioners on the Disc treat the use of magic not unlike the use of nuclear weaponry - it's okay for people to know that you have it, but everyone will be in trouble if it gets used."
I patition for this line to be removed "(again, with exceptions - see Sourcery)"
as SOurcery is such as exceptional case that, it sould not be commentted on. the soucerer is tought by his father in the from of a staff. but i want to know what others think. -- Oxinabox1 03:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no point in having two articles when fantasy works do not treat the "magician" and "wizard" differently. The exact traits that one writer uses to mark a "magician" rather than a "wizard" can be reversed by the next writer. Goldfritha 00:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
This term is not standard usage. It does not even appear in the dictionary. It should not take priority over commoner and more widely used terms; it properly belongs in the terminology, with the explaination of its use in RPG.
So I removed it from the lede. Goldfritha 19:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
"or perhaps indicating something else entirely" is too vague for inclusion. If there are no instances where it indicates something else entirely, the clause is wrong; if there are, they should be included as they exist. Goldfritha 16:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
"magician as the generic" will need references to support it as the general usage. In The Encyclopedia of Fantasy, for instance, the entry "wizard" contains all the information about typical practioners of magic. Goldfritha 16:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
"authors of fantasy fiction have often muddled the meaning" This needs some evidence that the meanings were precise prior to their use by the authors. "most accurate" -- that needs some evidence that there was accuracy prior to that. Goldfritha 16:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This article seems more appropriate for merging information from Mage:, which is under AfD. Dreadlocke ☥ 18:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree that it should be deleted, with a re-direct to magician.
Mage has been deleted. Dreadlocke ☥ 06:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
"though more recent literature contains more examples of magocracies"
This would definitely require a reference, since it's a statistical observation and would need someone to have counted. Goldfritha 00:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please fact check the recent Harry Potter insertions? Under "Apearance" it used to say that the image of wizards is largely uniform from Gandalf on, and now it says from Gandalf to Albus Dumbledore, this completely changes the meaning of the statement as the first states that Gandalf set the standard and the second implies that Gandalf is merely an example of an already existing motif. This especially upsets me as I have found texts that state that Gandalf is very different from the pre-Tolkien classical wizard ( here's one example that briefly mentions it). Also, it has been added in that the appearance predates the fantasy genre and goes back to Merlin, but wasn't Merlin a half-incubus and more similar to a Woodwose, which is something else entirely? Wikipedia says he was, and I was under the impression that the archetypical wizard motif with a pointy hat and baggy robe did not exist until Gandalf. Could someone with greater knowlege of the subject than myself please clarify this? -- Daedalus 21:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The footnote itself casts doubt on the authenticity of the claim that Odin is the source of the image. I think that should at least be reworded less strongly. Goldfritha 02:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
It is curious to note, that when searching for "Wizard" or "Sorcerer" and the like almost all of my searches that mentioned Merlin have mentioned him with a pointy hat and robe. And yet, when doing research for "Merlin" himself, all of my results have described him as a wildman of the forest, except for two. TWO out of about 30 examined results, that's a significant minority. And one of those two was dubious because it mentioned his pointy-hat motif as a passing comment and later mentioned him as a wildman anyway, and the focus of the essay was about Jungian Archetypes, so that one doesn't really count. Of the remaining that mention him as a wildman, only about 10 were dubious, the rest were blatantly clear. 1 out of about 20. His modern appearance is split two ways, the academic and the popular media. This is why I stated earlier that he is a bad example of the typical appearance without a qualifying explanation. I am not voting to delete the Merlin mention, I am simply uncertain as to how to phrase such an explanation. --— Δαίδαλος Σ 14:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I have let you distract me. You have claimed that 1. Merlin was a woodwose, for which you have provided references. 2. That this somehow requires that the statement that he is among the wizards who have influence the modern image to be limited -- for which you have not. Provide a reference for that, which is what you wanted to modify. Goldfritha 01:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
We've done much back-and-forth discussion, but exactly what are we arguing about? I feel we both have lost track of our original assertions, so let's start over with a new summary and see what exactly we are dissagreeing about. I'll go first:
I feel that it should be noted that Odin is the original source of the iconic image of a wizard. The phrase "some theorize" does not convey this concept, and my sources make it clear that not only is Merlin only sometimes compliant with such an image, but that his appearance in that image itself is directly inspired by Odin. Therefore, I propose using:
I feel this is completely true and completely verifiable by my many sources (2 aout Odin as the source, 4 about Merlin as a woodwose and not a typical wizard). If this is unclear in a way that I do not percieve, then I am open to suggestions on how to rephrase it. --— Δαίδαλος Σ Σ 03:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
"Odin, the king of gods in Norse Mythology is believed by David Day to serve as 'the model for the wandering Wizard and Magicians from Merlin to Gandalf' (31)" - John Pike on "Magic Swords, Mythic Creatures, and Mighty Warriors: Archetypal Patterns in Fantasy Literature" citing: Day, David. Tolkien's Ring. New York: Barnes and Noble Books, 1999.
I have to say that this is some excellent work here. I especially like the collaboration that seems to have happened on the talk page. I really think that you could reach GA status even if you can't hit FA with it, yet. Slavlin 07:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that the only mention of them is the fictional wushu. I hope I'm not the only one that has heard of the weizka in Burma and northern Thailand. A cognate term also appears in India. I hope someone else knows that the term wizard, which derives from the PIE root wid/vid is akin to words for "wizard" in Sanskrit (vidyadhara), Pali (vijjadhara) and Burmese (weizka)(the common root wid/vid present throughout, although in Burma it was merely an Indian loanword). WE need to expand the article to include the broader range of occult practices, and maybe beliefs(?), around the world and particularly in countries that have Indo-European languages or loanwords (since it's an easy place to start). To be sure, Chinese legends are important; but let's move beyond trends and understand wizardry the world round; since it has been taken seriously by people for millenia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardtgreer ( talk • contribs) 04:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
The long list of magical stories cited in this article has some glaring omissions-- in particular, the Inheritance cycle by Christopher Paolini, which contains very well-developed ideas of what magic is, how magic-users are categorized, how they use their powers, etc. Including references to it would really add to the article.
70.56.164.239 ( talk) 02:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
In the "Limits" section, a detailed digression on the magic system of "The Name of the Wind" was about the length of the total mention of all other sources; I condensed it down to one sentence while transcribing the original passage to a section on the book's own page. Wpell ( talk) 15:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
"Ursula K. Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea explored the question of how wizards learned their art, introducing to modern fantasy the role of the wizard as protagonist."
Moorcock introduced Elric of Melnibone in 1961. Wizard of Earthsea came out in 1968. Is Elric not a wizard, or not a protagonist or is Moorcock's Elric/Stormbringer series not modern fantasy? Or is this original research?
[Note: There may be earlier wizards in modern fantasy than Elric...] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.104.87 ( talk) 02:59, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Whilst this article seems to be based on Fantasy - I'm surprised that no-one has commented that the true meaning of Warlock come from an old English word (warleca?) meaning two-faced, and is applied to a witch, male or female - the term is unisexual, who had betrayed their coven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.23.73.52 ( talk) 10:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I deleted the following passage, since I have no idea what it's trying to say. Can anyone fix it?
One factor in this development has been that wizards in fantasy more frequently go on quests; the wizard who is merely consulted in his tower may be surrounded by useful equipment and substances, even in a fantasy work, but the questing wizard must carry what he needs. Wizards who remain in one place, such as those a hero consults, often own many magical items. One who lives in a cottage may have it filled with drying herbs for their magical properties, fantasy herbs being particularly noted for their healing powers;[1]:458 richer ones may own more valuable materials, such as crystal balls for scrying purposes.[1]:846
ref: Clute, John; Westfahl (1999). The Encyclopedia of Fantasy (1st ed.). New York: St. Martin's Griffin. ISBN 0-312-19869-8.
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The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below; also note related recent discussions at Talk:Sorcerer and Talk:Wizard. Dekimasu よ! 17:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
– While there are several potential titles we could use, the major archetypes described in this article are primarily described as "wizards". Probably due to major franchises, usage in book sources has spiked very highly in recent years (note that 'magician' in this search doesn't distinguish from illusionists/performers, so the lead is perhaps even greater). Netoholic @ 09:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not Moved per the consensus below L293D ( ☎ • ✎) 00:36, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Magician (fantasy) be
renamed and moved to
Magician (supernatural).
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log |
Magician (fantasy) → Magician (supernatural) – Per WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:CONPRIME as the main article is listed at Magic (supernatural). Rreagan007 ( talk) 22:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
This article have 12 "citation needed" … Half the number of references it currently has! 5.114.228.14 ( talk) 09:15, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | Magician (fantasy) is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | ||||||||||||
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Current status: Former featured article candidate |
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Fixed some typos... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.0.74.73 ( talk) 10:03, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
"Magical practitioners on the Disc (of the Discword series) are rare, and often innate (with exceptions - the eighth son of an eighth son must become a wizard, even if the son is a daughter), and do require some form of training (again, with exceptions - see Sourcery). Also, magical practitioners on the Disc treat the use of magic not unlike the use of nuclear weaponry - it's okay for people to know that you have it, but everyone will be in trouble if it gets used."
I patition for this line to be removed "(again, with exceptions - see Sourcery)"
as SOurcery is such as exceptional case that, it sould not be commentted on. the soucerer is tought by his father in the from of a staff. but i want to know what others think. -- Oxinabox1 03:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no point in having two articles when fantasy works do not treat the "magician" and "wizard" differently. The exact traits that one writer uses to mark a "magician" rather than a "wizard" can be reversed by the next writer. Goldfritha 00:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
This term is not standard usage. It does not even appear in the dictionary. It should not take priority over commoner and more widely used terms; it properly belongs in the terminology, with the explaination of its use in RPG.
So I removed it from the lede. Goldfritha 19:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
"or perhaps indicating something else entirely" is too vague for inclusion. If there are no instances where it indicates something else entirely, the clause is wrong; if there are, they should be included as they exist. Goldfritha 16:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
"magician as the generic" will need references to support it as the general usage. In The Encyclopedia of Fantasy, for instance, the entry "wizard" contains all the information about typical practioners of magic. Goldfritha 16:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
"authors of fantasy fiction have often muddled the meaning" This needs some evidence that the meanings were precise prior to their use by the authors. "most accurate" -- that needs some evidence that there was accuracy prior to that. Goldfritha 16:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This article seems more appropriate for merging information from Mage:, which is under AfD. Dreadlocke ☥ 18:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree that it should be deleted, with a re-direct to magician.
Mage has been deleted. Dreadlocke ☥ 06:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
"though more recent literature contains more examples of magocracies"
This would definitely require a reference, since it's a statistical observation and would need someone to have counted. Goldfritha 00:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please fact check the recent Harry Potter insertions? Under "Apearance" it used to say that the image of wizards is largely uniform from Gandalf on, and now it says from Gandalf to Albus Dumbledore, this completely changes the meaning of the statement as the first states that Gandalf set the standard and the second implies that Gandalf is merely an example of an already existing motif. This especially upsets me as I have found texts that state that Gandalf is very different from the pre-Tolkien classical wizard ( here's one example that briefly mentions it). Also, it has been added in that the appearance predates the fantasy genre and goes back to Merlin, but wasn't Merlin a half-incubus and more similar to a Woodwose, which is something else entirely? Wikipedia says he was, and I was under the impression that the archetypical wizard motif with a pointy hat and baggy robe did not exist until Gandalf. Could someone with greater knowlege of the subject than myself please clarify this? -- Daedalus 21:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The footnote itself casts doubt on the authenticity of the claim that Odin is the source of the image. I think that should at least be reworded less strongly. Goldfritha 02:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
It is curious to note, that when searching for "Wizard" or "Sorcerer" and the like almost all of my searches that mentioned Merlin have mentioned him with a pointy hat and robe. And yet, when doing research for "Merlin" himself, all of my results have described him as a wildman of the forest, except for two. TWO out of about 30 examined results, that's a significant minority. And one of those two was dubious because it mentioned his pointy-hat motif as a passing comment and later mentioned him as a wildman anyway, and the focus of the essay was about Jungian Archetypes, so that one doesn't really count. Of the remaining that mention him as a wildman, only about 10 were dubious, the rest were blatantly clear. 1 out of about 20. His modern appearance is split two ways, the academic and the popular media. This is why I stated earlier that he is a bad example of the typical appearance without a qualifying explanation. I am not voting to delete the Merlin mention, I am simply uncertain as to how to phrase such an explanation. --— Δαίδαλος Σ 14:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I have let you distract me. You have claimed that 1. Merlin was a woodwose, for which you have provided references. 2. That this somehow requires that the statement that he is among the wizards who have influence the modern image to be limited -- for which you have not. Provide a reference for that, which is what you wanted to modify. Goldfritha 01:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
We've done much back-and-forth discussion, but exactly what are we arguing about? I feel we both have lost track of our original assertions, so let's start over with a new summary and see what exactly we are dissagreeing about. I'll go first:
I feel that it should be noted that Odin is the original source of the iconic image of a wizard. The phrase "some theorize" does not convey this concept, and my sources make it clear that not only is Merlin only sometimes compliant with such an image, but that his appearance in that image itself is directly inspired by Odin. Therefore, I propose using:
I feel this is completely true and completely verifiable by my many sources (2 aout Odin as the source, 4 about Merlin as a woodwose and not a typical wizard). If this is unclear in a way that I do not percieve, then I am open to suggestions on how to rephrase it. --— Δαίδαλος Σ Σ 03:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
"Odin, the king of gods in Norse Mythology is believed by David Day to serve as 'the model for the wandering Wizard and Magicians from Merlin to Gandalf' (31)" - John Pike on "Magic Swords, Mythic Creatures, and Mighty Warriors: Archetypal Patterns in Fantasy Literature" citing: Day, David. Tolkien's Ring. New York: Barnes and Noble Books, 1999.
I have to say that this is some excellent work here. I especially like the collaboration that seems to have happened on the talk page. I really think that you could reach GA status even if you can't hit FA with it, yet. Slavlin 07:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that the only mention of them is the fictional wushu. I hope I'm not the only one that has heard of the weizka in Burma and northern Thailand. A cognate term also appears in India. I hope someone else knows that the term wizard, which derives from the PIE root wid/vid is akin to words for "wizard" in Sanskrit (vidyadhara), Pali (vijjadhara) and Burmese (weizka)(the common root wid/vid present throughout, although in Burma it was merely an Indian loanword). WE need to expand the article to include the broader range of occult practices, and maybe beliefs(?), around the world and particularly in countries that have Indo-European languages or loanwords (since it's an easy place to start). To be sure, Chinese legends are important; but let's move beyond trends and understand wizardry the world round; since it has been taken seriously by people for millenia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardtgreer ( talk • contribs) 04:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
The long list of magical stories cited in this article has some glaring omissions-- in particular, the Inheritance cycle by Christopher Paolini, which contains very well-developed ideas of what magic is, how magic-users are categorized, how they use their powers, etc. Including references to it would really add to the article.
70.56.164.239 ( talk) 02:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
In the "Limits" section, a detailed digression on the magic system of "The Name of the Wind" was about the length of the total mention of all other sources; I condensed it down to one sentence while transcribing the original passage to a section on the book's own page. Wpell ( talk) 15:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
"Ursula K. Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea explored the question of how wizards learned their art, introducing to modern fantasy the role of the wizard as protagonist."
Moorcock introduced Elric of Melnibone in 1961. Wizard of Earthsea came out in 1968. Is Elric not a wizard, or not a protagonist or is Moorcock's Elric/Stormbringer series not modern fantasy? Or is this original research?
[Note: There may be earlier wizards in modern fantasy than Elric...] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.104.87 ( talk) 02:59, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Whilst this article seems to be based on Fantasy - I'm surprised that no-one has commented that the true meaning of Warlock come from an old English word (warleca?) meaning two-faced, and is applied to a witch, male or female - the term is unisexual, who had betrayed their coven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.23.73.52 ( talk) 10:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I deleted the following passage, since I have no idea what it's trying to say. Can anyone fix it?
One factor in this development has been that wizards in fantasy more frequently go on quests; the wizard who is merely consulted in his tower may be surrounded by useful equipment and substances, even in a fantasy work, but the questing wizard must carry what he needs. Wizards who remain in one place, such as those a hero consults, often own many magical items. One who lives in a cottage may have it filled with drying herbs for their magical properties, fantasy herbs being particularly noted for their healing powers;[1]:458 richer ones may own more valuable materials, such as crystal balls for scrying purposes.[1]:846
ref: Clute, John; Westfahl (1999). The Encyclopedia of Fantasy (1st ed.). New York: St. Martin's Griffin. ISBN 0-312-19869-8.
Prof. Squirrel ( talk) 02:50, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below; also note related recent discussions at Talk:Sorcerer and Talk:Wizard. Dekimasu よ! 17:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
– While there are several potential titles we could use, the major archetypes described in this article are primarily described as "wizards". Probably due to major franchises, usage in book sources has spiked very highly in recent years (note that 'magician' in this search doesn't distinguish from illusionists/performers, so the lead is perhaps even greater). Netoholic @ 09:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not Moved per the consensus below L293D ( ☎ • ✎) 00:36, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Magician (fantasy) be
renamed and moved to
Magician (supernatural).
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log |
Magician (fantasy) → Magician (supernatural) – Per WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:CONPRIME as the main article is listed at Magic (supernatural). Rreagan007 ( talk) 22:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
This article have 12 "citation needed" … Half the number of references it currently has! 5.114.228.14 ( talk) 09:15, 7 January 2023 (UTC)