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Was Freud's idea originally called (in English) "madonna prostitute"? And don't many people call it "virgin whore"? And syndrome sometimes, instead of complex. Just mentioning it in case anyone wants to put the redirects in. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by 68.174.107.130 ( talk) 17:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I created the other article on the same topic at about the same time and don't see the merge as controversial so I'm going go ahead and do it right away. 鈥 mako 17:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Jean Eustache's 1973 film "La Maman et la putain", an artist's view on the subject under discussion. [ [1] 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Alex p14 ( talk 鈥 contribs) 16:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I thought that the idea was that a sufferer wanted a wife just like his mother, but also wanted to avoid sex with his wife/mother surrogate. It does not relate to a distant mother at all - in fact the closer the man was/is to his mother, the more he might want his wife to be like her.
I do question the statement that the "sufferer is raised by a cold and distant mother. Such a man will often court women with qualities of his mother, hoping to fulfill a need for intimacy unmet in childhood". That is a contradiction - how can he want a cold and distant wife - just like his mother - because he need intimacy? I would have thought that the craving would be for a woman quiet unlike his mother! 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 20:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
As a trusted bystander I have witnessed a textbook clear case of MWC, eventually after the divorce and her re-engaging another partner, the truth emerged. She had been way too much for her first partner to handle. Obviously he felt suffocated and had no choice to reject her eventually and go somewhere else. But admitting that is humiliating. The MWC explanation is so much more elegant.
How many more cases could have went like that, if not most/all of them? 鈥 Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.83.200.246 ( talk) 13:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
IMO this article could use some major cleanup. First of all, I think we should split this into one article for psychiatric disorder theorized by Freud (which doesn't seem to be in the DSM-IV, and, AFAIK, hasn't been classified as a disorder by mainstream psychiatry in over a generation) and the sociological / feminist / anthopological concept of a virgin-whore dichotomy. Here's a Google Scholar search link if anyone's interested. After the split, the article on the Freudian concept could use some more historical context (Was it ever in the DSM? If it was taken out, when and why? Was it replaced with other disorder classifications?). -- Gordon Ecker ( talk) 09:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Is this article also including the virgin鈥搘hore complex too? They seem similar to me. -- MurderByDeadcopy "bang!" 17:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
Why is Borderline Personality Disorder linked as relevant? Neither page mentions each other, and I know of no connection between the two (besides the fact that they are both concepts within psychology). 209.122.211.116 ( talk) 13:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
I found the revision it was added in: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex&diff=prev&oldid=563693311 209.122.211.116 ( talk) 14:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Possible answer: BPD also includes a tendency to see relationship partners in extreme terms, as either all good or all bad. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C52:7A00:2A85:88C6:5D1A:1095:B22D ( talk) 18:36, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Both in this article and in this discussion there is an inconsistency as to whether to use an en dash, 鈥, or a hyphen, -, to separate Madonna-whore. I believe the correct spelling is with a hyphen, because it links the two concepts. An en dash would be appropriate to indicate the range between two concepts, as in "from Madonna to whore", which is not what Freud was talking about. An em dash, 鈥, also appears here and there in the article and is completely wrong. Annoyingly, I believe this will also affect the title of the article. Can we agree to use the hyphen consistently here? Kit Cloudkicker ( talk) 15:33, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between. In this case I think the term implies Madonna and whore complex or Madonna versus whore complex. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
"The term is also used popularly, if sometimes with subtly different meanings. This applies to Miu Iruma's hypersexuality"
The short section should probably be removed, especially the reference to some random character from a video game. If kept it should at least be properly cited. -- Badpagenoticer ( talk) 20:56, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
Greetings, all. The so-called "Madonna-whore complex" seems to have been claimed and developed practically exclusively by Sigmund Freud. It is, moreover, strongly disputed in modern psychoanalysis. Shouldn't these facts be reflected in the definition of the term? E.g. "In psychoanalytic literature, a Madonna鈥搘hore complex, also called a Madonna鈥搈istress complex, is a Freudian concept about the ostensible inability by males to maintain sexual arousal within a committed, loving relationship." Thoughts? - The Gnome ( talk) 14:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Madonna鈥搘hore complex article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources:聽 Google ( books聽路 news聽路 scholar聽路 free images聽路 WP聽refs)聽路 FENS聽路 JSTOR聽路 TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
Was Freud's idea originally called (in English) "madonna prostitute"? And don't many people call it "virgin whore"? And syndrome sometimes, instead of complex. Just mentioning it in case anyone wants to put the redirects in. 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by 68.174.107.130 ( talk) 17:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I created the other article on the same topic at about the same time and don't see the merge as controversial so I'm going go ahead and do it right away. 鈥 mako 17:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Jean Eustache's 1973 film "La Maman et la putain", an artist's view on the subject under discussion. [ [1] 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by Alex p14 ( talk 鈥 contribs) 16:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I thought that the idea was that a sufferer wanted a wife just like his mother, but also wanted to avoid sex with his wife/mother surrogate. It does not relate to a distant mother at all - in fact the closer the man was/is to his mother, the more he might want his wife to be like her.
I do question the statement that the "sufferer is raised by a cold and distant mother. Such a man will often court women with qualities of his mother, hoping to fulfill a need for intimacy unmet in childhood". That is a contradiction - how can he want a cold and distant wife - just like his mother - because he need intimacy? I would have thought that the craving would be for a woman quiet unlike his mother! 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 20:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
As a trusted bystander I have witnessed a textbook clear case of MWC, eventually after the divorce and her re-engaging another partner, the truth emerged. She had been way too much for her first partner to handle. Obviously he felt suffocated and had no choice to reject her eventually and go somewhere else. But admitting that is humiliating. The MWC explanation is so much more elegant.
How many more cases could have went like that, if not most/all of them? 鈥 Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.83.200.246 ( talk) 13:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
IMO this article could use some major cleanup. First of all, I think we should split this into one article for psychiatric disorder theorized by Freud (which doesn't seem to be in the DSM-IV, and, AFAIK, hasn't been classified as a disorder by mainstream psychiatry in over a generation) and the sociological / feminist / anthopological concept of a virgin-whore dichotomy. Here's a Google Scholar search link if anyone's interested. After the split, the article on the Freudian concept could use some more historical context (Was it ever in the DSM? If it was taken out, when and why? Was it replaced with other disorder classifications?). -- Gordon Ecker ( talk) 09:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Is this article also including the virgin鈥搘hore complex too? They seem similar to me. -- MurderByDeadcopy "bang!" 17:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
Why is Borderline Personality Disorder linked as relevant? Neither page mentions each other, and I know of no connection between the two (besides the fact that they are both concepts within psychology). 209.122.211.116 ( talk) 13:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
I found the revision it was added in: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex&diff=prev&oldid=563693311 209.122.211.116 ( talk) 14:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Possible answer: BPD also includes a tendency to see relationship partners in extreme terms, as either all good or all bad. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C52:7A00:2A85:88C6:5D1A:1095:B22D ( talk) 18:36, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Both in this article and in this discussion there is an inconsistency as to whether to use an en dash, 鈥, or a hyphen, -, to separate Madonna-whore. I believe the correct spelling is with a hyphen, because it links the two concepts. An en dash would be appropriate to indicate the range between two concepts, as in "from Madonna to whore", which is not what Freud was talking about. An em dash, 鈥, also appears here and there in the article and is completely wrong. Annoyingly, I believe this will also affect the title of the article. Can we agree to use the hyphen consistently here? Kit Cloudkicker ( talk) 15:33, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between. In this case I think the term implies Madonna and whore complex or Madonna versus whore complex. -- Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
"The term is also used popularly, if sometimes with subtly different meanings. This applies to Miu Iruma's hypersexuality"
The short section should probably be removed, especially the reference to some random character from a video game. If kept it should at least be properly cited. -- Badpagenoticer ( talk) 20:56, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
Greetings, all. The so-called "Madonna-whore complex" seems to have been claimed and developed practically exclusively by Sigmund Freud. It is, moreover, strongly disputed in modern psychoanalysis. Shouldn't these facts be reflected in the definition of the term? E.g. "In psychoanalytic literature, a Madonna鈥搘hore complex, also called a Madonna鈥搈istress complex, is a Freudian concept about the ostensible inability by males to maintain sexual arousal within a committed, loving relationship." Thoughts? - The Gnome ( talk) 14:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)