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I have slightly modified the page to explain how the group has been discredited because anti-semetic groups have quoted them out of context- [[User:]] 08:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Give me a break, the only criticism you provided makes it seem like only right wing fascists disagree with the group, Machsom Watch is a fringe group. If your problem was just my choice of language you would have written something yourself since you wouldn't know as much about the group if you didn't also know it had very little support inside Israel or the Jewish community. Are you just disingenuious, stubborn, or are you trying to promote a particular viewpoint?
Look I really don't want to get into an edit war so if you have a certain attachment to your article or take issue with my writing, you can write something, but I am not going to let nothing be written about real opposition to the group. I would understand if it was a controversial group that still generally had a lot of support, but writing about Machsom Watch and leading the reader to believe what you have written is wrong.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
I've re-added that paragraph with sources. This is very clear as far as I can see. Moreover, the MW accused Israeli soldiers of laughing, while they didn't laugh in the video (I remember seing it on TV, they didn't laugh). Besides, it's a littles senseless to have a section and MW criticisms without listing a single thing they did wrong, don't you think? -- Ynhockey || Talk 04:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
As much as I would hate to I think I am going to agree with Zero on this one, the passage is unnecessarily political, and too POV. If you can find some criticism that is more appropiate I think it would be helpful to the article.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
Zero and I weren't even talking about that paragraph. The one you removed is a quote from a website. -- Ynhockey || Talk 05:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Well I was actually referring to that paragraph as well. The one I removed was also inappropriate I thought, I know you didn't change it or anything and it was properly cited, but honestly the quote seemed improper.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
I agree it was a bit harsh, but I'm trying to represent a major viewpoint of those who are opposed to Machsom Watch - it is a prevailing opinion within Israel that the organization isn't helping anyone, and it's unfair that an article about it will only have good things. By comparison, the article on Ariel Sharon, who has much more support within the country he represents, lists a load of criticisms (scattered all over the article). I think the way it is right now (without that IDFIsrael quote) is fine, but if you disagree, we should reach a consensus regarding acceptable criticism of MW. -- Ynhockey || Talk 06:30, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Believe me I know that there should be more criticism of Machsom Watch in the article (just scroll up on this talk page) my impression is that by including your quote it actually kinda underminded our cause.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
"Known blunders of Machsom Watch have included falsely accusing the IDF of forcing a Palestinian violinist to play his violin at a checkpoint, a story which was printed worldwide. It was later discovered that the violinist was playing at his own will."
While I didn't add that last paragraph, or its source, I maintain that if palestineremembered can be used as a source for dozens of articles, so can Arutz Sheva. If you remove Arutz Sheva, please remove all information taken from palestineremembered. Otherwise, please restore the paragraph. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 09:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero, give us a break, Palestine Remembered is neutral huh? here is an excerpt from their website: "Are you aware that Israeli Zionists, during the 1948 war, pushed over 150,000 Palestinian refugees into the sea?, For a long time, Zionists have been propagating fear based propaganda to their followers". Even by itself it is unacceptable to even consider the website as a source but it is even worse to claim it is somehow more neutral than Arutz 7. Its time to stop editing under a veil of neutrality Zero.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The "Criticism" section is nearly as long as the description section, which is long enough. Let's start a praise section. -- Zero 10:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, as it stands, the description section is already pretty much a praise section, an additional praise section would be ludicrous.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Arutz Sheva Israel National Radio, while it is not Wikipedia policy that it cannot be used as a source, it is Zero0000's longstanding policy that it cannot be used as a source. There is no question that it is a biased news source. Is it more biased than, say, Al Jazeera? I doubt it. More biased than The Daily Mirror. Not sure. Than CNN? Certainly. As for www.palestineremembered.com, that's a propaganda website, not a news source, but I don't see where it is used in this article, or where Zero0000 has used it as a source. Jayjg (talk) 07:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
If Zero is correct in his assertion then I would agree with his conclusion, also although Al jazerra is definitely bias, it seems to be at least less blatant then the Arutz 7 website.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that when you are born and grow up somewhere else you are usually not considered ---i or ----an. My grandma is Hungarian not American, is this not the case?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Palmiro, why did you revert my edit? How is it 'very bad' to increase the coherence of an article? I mean, how does this read to you?
Their stated aims are to:
Doesn't seem very coherent to me. The quotes are not necessary either, as direct speech is unencyclopedic and should, when possible, be replaced with reported speech.
-- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 20:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
They clearly spell this out and there is nothing wrong with being political. Zeq 19:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
If you have objections to sourced contnet use talk.
You removed a sourced material. Pleas avoid removing such material. You have also removed material which presented the POV of the those who think there is a need to take care of everyone's human rights. The right of the jews not to be killed is also a human right. This is an NPOV encyclopedia and all POV must be represented. Clearly the POV of the Mchsom Watch is represnted but the other view was not. Not the whole Haaretz article must be brought into Wikipedia how ever the main POV about the subject of the article should be. Zeq 11:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree to quote Dan Halutz in the introduction of this article just as soon as Machsom Watch is quoted in the introduction of Dan Halutz. Also, stop adding the link to Haaretz - a week or two from now it will be dead. -- Zero 23:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I think an IDF point of view should be in the lead, but don't think it should be as long and detailed. Perhaps something like: In response to the above stated aims, the IDF, which maintains the checkpoints, responded that human rights lie not only in the protection of Palestinian civilians at checkpoints, but also in the protection of Israeli civilians from terrorist acts.
I realize there may be a few problems with that, because not only is it slightly different than what Halutz really said, but also the IDF spokesman is the official voice of the IDF, not Halutz. However, I suggest a wording which responds to MW but mentions only the IDF as a body (or the spokesman at most), but not Halutz. -- Y
Ynhockey ||
Talk Y
05:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Outrageous! Please go to IDF and quote the opinion of Hamas in the introduction, then we will have something to discuss. This is 'not an article on checkpoints, nor is it an article on human rights. First we describe the topic of the article, then we give external opinions and comments on it. That's how good articles are structured. -- Zero 09:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to go with Ynhockey on this one, the IDF POV is definitely relevant here but I would say it is faulty reasoning to suggest that their view should be just as thouroughly represented as Machsom Watch's, after all this is the MW article.
Also I think it is unreasonable to suggest that Yan's voice is more authoratative that the IDF spokesman just because he is of higher rank, the Generals in most countries including Israel have been known to make unofficial public remarks that are contrary to their nation's established policy.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we could just make the current intro more innocuous and add something like "...is a controversial group".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 12:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Zero, look at the AIPAC talk section - he got you there, Zero. Just because an organization acts for the insterest of Israel doesn't mean it should be criticized while organizations which are against Israel's interests should only be praised. If you support praise+criticism in AIPAC, then you should support it here as well. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
by saying that the group is "controversial" we did not say much. NPOV policy is to describe the controvesy.
The group web site is quoted on the 1st paragrph. This is one POV. The other POV (not even about the group itself, i.e. not a direct critism of it) but just a different view of the main issue : i.e. Human rights is something that BOTH palestinians and Israelis have a right too. So this view (about the actions taken by IDF, the actions that the group protest against) must balance the group own claims. This is the essence of the NPOV policy.
I would love to have an ArbCom case about it and let them decide. It is a win-win.
The article now is conforming to NPOV policy or maybe by quoting the group it is quoting propeganda.
MY Suggestion to Zero:
Follow Dispute resolution process: File for mediation, conduct a poll. If it does not get your way, I would like to see this get to ArbCom. (same about sarafend btw). In anycase I suggest that you stop the edit war about it. Zeq 22:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I should mention that my comment asking zero to look at the AIPAC article did not have to do with this article, but was a seperate matter. Sorry- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like for now to pose this as a question. Zeq 21:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero has at first tried to remove the quote from haaretz. After he understood he can not delete it he now tries to push it to the last line and the last paragrpah of this article.
NPOV policy is that we describe the controversy. We present both POV (in this case on the question of "what is Human rights ?"
Zero, if you dispute this I suggest that you start a dispute resolution process. Conduct a poll, file for mediation - what ever. That is the proper way to handle disputes. I am aksing you again to stop the edit war about a legitimate edit. Zeq 05:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
{{RFMF}}
Hi Slim,
I think we had some edit conflict on checkpoint watch.
Anyhow:
The issue (IMHO) is to be NPOV about the checkpoints themself. Checkpointwatch has one view, most israelis has another view and they belive that the checkpoints protect israelis from terror.
Personally I think both are right. In any case, it is important to bring in the intro the watch goals (as they see them) and IDF head response about the broader Human rights issue. This is under mediation and you are welcome to join. I want to understand why you think critisim should go on top and not NPOV discussion about the chiken and egg about terror and checkpoints (which IMHO, is the controversy to describe) Zeq 22:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
פעילותן של מתנדבות מחסום-ווטש, לצד נסיונות הצבא להציג "כיבוש נאור" בעיני העולם, אכן הביאו לשיפור קל במחסומים, והפכו את ההישרדות היומיומית לנסבלת יותר. אולם מחסום-ווטש מתנגד לעצם הקמת המחסומים. במחסומים הללו ניתן לראות, על בסיס יומיומי, את ההשפלה והדיכוי המתמשכים - צבא כובש.
translation:
The activity of watch volunteers, along with the army attempts to present an "enlightened occupation" to the rest of the world, indeed brought slight imporvment in checkpoints and had turned the daily susrvival (of Palestinians) to somewhat bearable (spelling?). But Machsom-watch object the actual existense of the checkpoints - in thise chackpoints it is posible to see on a daily basis the humiliation caused by an occupation army,
from http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/690397.html
Last update - 23:55 05/03/2006
[ Text deleted for obvious copyright reasons. -- Zero 02:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC) ]
I looked at all the "citation needed" tags. It seems much of this article is direct quotes from how the group describe itself. The source is it's own web site. Zeq 04:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero justifies his edit war with: "Criticism in the introduction is a violation of normal article structure.) "
We may need ArbCom to rule on that. While NPOV policy is clear it may need more calrifications. Zeq 11:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that everyone look at this version: [2]
Dupliactions have been rmoved (as Zero corretly pointed out), each section is as NPOV as possible (I hope but I can be proven wrong) and all the info - including their postive contribution to what goes on in the checkpoints is mentioned. Zeq 13:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this from the intro: "While the women presence in checkpoints have caused security forces to act with more restrain than in the past ..." because it needs to be sourced e.g. by adding "according to ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 15:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Slim,
The source is this Talk:Machsom_Watch#From_http:.2F.2Fwww.etgar.info.2Fwatch.html - Is this a good source?
Just a side note (not a source):
I can tell you from my won expiriance (I travel in the west bank for my work with the UN) that this is 100% correct - These women on one hand made a big difference in changing the IDF attitude. IDF has changed many procedure based on watch critisim and presence but sometimes they really disturbe the soldiers and help Palestinians cross to israel without security checks.
The one big problem, in the eyes of many watch women, was that their intentions (the real ones) were never to "improve" the checkpoints but they wanted to cancel them altogether. So now, some of them say that should not help the army improve the checkpoints conditions any more. Tough choice. Zeq 16:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Zeq, could you tell me please why you deleted the quote from the NGO Monitor about the "demonization of Israel"? [4] SlimVirgin (talk) 20:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not only is NGO Monitor being heavily relied on as a source, which is poor, but the citations given are inadequate. They ask the reader to "see linked articles", which is not at all clear. What linked articles? The ones linked at the end of the entry on Machsom Watch? Only one of these is at all relevant and it does not support most of the claims it is cited in favour of (the only one it does support is the one on "false accusations", and even then this is not very accurate picture of NGOM's claims). And if this article, why is it not cited directly, and if not this article, what articles (article or articles, by the way) are in question? Palmiro | Talk 15:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
(copied from Zero's and SV's talk pages)
The introductory section of articles is supposed to introduce and define the topic of the article. Machsom Watch is not defined by the attacks that have been made on it. Please look at other articles on organizations and you will see that their leading sections do not include quoted criticism from others. I'm very surprised that you are taking this position contrary to normal practice and contrary to the obvious requirements of good article structure. Perhaps you will go to IDF and quote Machsom Watch in the first paragraph? I feel very strongly about this and am prepared to go to the wall on it. -- Zero 00:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This is utterly bizarre. The intro must be NPOV. Zero has decided that, by definition, criticism constitutes "too much detail," which is nonsense. I agree that we should discuss whose criticism to use, whether the IDF's or the NGO Monitor's, or someone else's. But the idea that there should be no criticism at all in the intro, when there is criticism readily available from reputable sources, is contrary to the NPOV policy and to all the guidelines about how to write a good lead section. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the intro as it is now is very good. It does not directly quote the IDF Chief of Staff, but summarizes the IDF's accusations and provides sources. You also cannot say that it's too detailed or takes too much space, because it's only 2 lines even compared to MW's stated aims, which is a 3-clause list, making it also grab more attention than the criticism. Good job SlimVirgin. I hope Zero doesn't revert this. On a site note, I too am baffled about why Zero doesn't agree to the RFM. If he is indeed enforcing Wikipedia policy, he should win the RFM, otherwise he should admit he is wrong. Avoiding the RFM is strange. -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 09:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The revrts by zero are getting disruptive. there was nothing in talk to justify the last revert [5]. Zero is engaging in edit war. I will not participate in the edit war. For the last time, I ask Zero to participate in Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#Machsom_Watch. (The issue is now clear: NPOV or not NPOV ?) Zeq 06:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I've put up my version for consideration. It balances the criticism with some praise and adopts the new format for references. Please feel free to amend it as appropriate. -- Ian Pitchford 10:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It does not make sense to have them both. This is getting ridiculus. Article sections should be NPOV and written well without duplication.
It is kind of a POV fork in the article itself: Zero gets the 1st paragrph to be as he wants it and in return we get two sections of counter-reactions. I do not accept this kind of solution .
The 1st paragrph need to be as short as possible and NPOV. The best way to do it is with the qoute from the IDF about why the checkpoints are need from a human rights perspective. Zeq 11:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Machsom_Watch&diff=43285824&oldid=43278316 Zeq 13:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Moving to left The one that Zeq linked to at the top of this section. Also, I mistakenly said that the quote is irrelevant to the article, which it isn't (Zeq pointed this out), what I meant was that it was irrelevant to the lead section. (You can see in the edit summary of my revert.) -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 18:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
as of this version [6] we still have two sections of counter-argument against the group (not sure why the IDF is "singld out" for a seprate section.
We also now have "prais" in the lead.
I suggest we shortenm the lead insteda of making it long.
IMHO the only description that should be in the lead is:
all the critism , praise etc should be off the lead. We should make the lead to stand on it's own.
Zeq 18:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
sure, I'll do that. why don't everybody stp editing for a while ? Zeq 18:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Your proposed lead is basically what we had before Palmiro's edit (the one you linked to in the previous section). Maybe it's better to analyze that lead and either agree on it or suggest improvements? The lead was:
Machsom Watch is a human rights organization composed exclusively of Israeli women. The word machsom is Hebrew for "checkpoint", in reference to Israel Defense Forces checkpoints in the West Bank and between the West Bank and Israel. The group also calls itself "Women for Human Rights".
The group's stated aims, according to its website, are to:
- monitor the behavior of soldiers and police at checkpoints;
- ensure that the human and civil rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected;
- record and report the results of their observations to the widest possible audience, from the decision-making level to that of the general public. [7]
Some members of the group see their role as protesting against the existence of the checkpoints. [8] [9]
Machsom Watch has been criticized by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and by several non-governmental organizations and individuals for allegedly disrupting the operation of checkpoints, showing hostility toward the soldiers, and making false accusations against them. [10] [11]
Other than not using the new reference format, I think this lead is by far the best we've had so far. -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 18:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Since Machsom Watch is fairly well known, it is likely that every single right-wing organization in Israel and many of those in the USA and Europe have said bad things about them. That doesn't mean we have to quote them all, especially if their comments are more or less the same as the others. We should only quote a few representative examples. Same with praise. (Maybe that means I agree with Ynhockey; actually I'm not sure.) -- Zero 12:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraoh has been inserted into the article:
In December, 2005 the European Parliament's Delegation for Relations with Israel found that 'The goals of the group are to monitor the behaviour of soldiers, to ensure that the human rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected, and to report back. It can thus be said that, today, there is much less physical violence than before, but verbal and behavioural violence has increased'
This quote conveys no new information to the reader, as the statement essentially repeats the stated goals of MW, which are given in the intro to the article. It does not follow directly from the quote that physical violence declined thanks to MW's efforts. If one reads the entire section of the report titled "8. Machsom Watch - women for human rights", one can see that the section contains lots of extraneous information unrelated directly Machsom Watch, but concerning checkpoints in general: for example, the sentence "The worst situation is in Hebron, where the presence of a 500 especially violent settlers has resulted in the city being divided in areas H1 and H2, something which makes impossible the daily life of 65,000 Arabs." or a statement that "[i]n 2004, 53 babies were actually born at checkpoints". None of this has anything to do with MW, so I have removed the paragraph. Pecher Talk 18:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Machsom Watch is a human rights organization composed exclusively of Israeli women.
The word machsom is Hebrew for "checkpoint", in reference to Israel Defense Forces checkpoints inside the West Bank and along entry points from the West Bank into Israel. The group also calls itself "Women for Human Rights".
According to its website[ [12] ], the group's aims are to:
- monitor the behavior of soldiers at checkpoints;
- ensure the human rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel via checkpoints;
- report their observations to wide audience: from the decision-making level to the general public.
Most members of the group see their role as protesting against the existence of the checkpoints. [13] [14]
The women presence in checkpoints had a positive effect of reducing phisical violence in the checkpoints and caused security forces to act with more restrain [15].
Machsom Watch has been criticized by the Israel Defense Forces in disrputing the operation of checkpoints, hostility toward the troops and legedly makng false accusations. During a two-hour meeting with members of the group in March 2006, IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz told the women that: " Humanitarianism is not exclusively owned by Machsom Watch and it is tested not only at the checkpoints, but also in preventing suicide bombers from reaching the markets of Tel Aviv and Netanya." [16]
The article now contains the following sentence sourced to The Irish Times: "The Israeli army claims that it has listened to Machsom Watch and is 'implementing training programmes to enable soldiers to carry out their work in the 'most moral and respectful way possible'." It is by no means self-evident that the statement from the IDF actually says that the programs were implemented in response to MW's criticism, so I am asking the editor who inserted the quote to provide a fuller quote from The Irish Times's article. It would also be great to have the exact quote of the IDF's statement so that we could ascertain that it was not quoted out of context. To me, the reference to training programs sounds like a routine response to criticism, not a change adopted under pressure. Pecher Talk 19:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Organizations, groups, etc. are not commonly called by the name of the person we imagine to head them, for any number of reasons. To begin with, the groups have proper names; if we thought it should always be called "Dore Gold's organization NGO Monitor" then we should change the name of the article to Dore Gold's organization NGO Monitor. Second, while Dore Gold, as the current head of the JCPA, is also the publisher of NGO Monitor, the actual editor of NGO Monitor is Gerald Steinberg. Third, Dore Gold could move on to another job next week, and we can't be going around updating all the articles to now call it "Moshe Stern's organization NGO Monitor". Fourth, you wouldn't describe other organizations this way; for example, you wouldn't describe Machshom Watch as "Ronnee Jaeger's organization Machshom Watch", or Amnesty International as "Irene Khan's organization Amnesty International". Jayjg (talk) 03:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Often my edits are uploaded suddenly when I'm still typing the edit summary. Does that happen to anyone else? The "arbeit macht frei" graffiti written on one of the "Hope of us all" signs was claimed by the group "Jews against Genocide" that has nothing to do with Machsom Watch. Quoting MW's denial without noting that the denial was proved correct is very naughty. If this incident is in the article at all (I vote "no") it should be reported honestly: as a malicious slander against MW that was refuted. -- Zero 04:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE stop reverting. The intro must have some criticism in it, no matter how brief. People who are reverting are not taking care to ensure that the material is not repeated elsewhere in the text, or that it flows correctly. Others are slapping in quotes from British newspapers without correct the spelling or the punctuation so it's consistent with the rest of the text. There were also sentences ending with a comma, and the material from the Guardian is arguably original research because this article isn't about whether the checkpoints should exist. Also, could I request that the references are not placed in the middle of sentences; it's hard enough to read for flow with them at the end. Please can we try to pay some attention to the writing? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
You wrote "The intro MUST have some criticism".
No, the lead should be 100% NPOV (not 50% NPOV, not 95%). It should have the correct amount of balance to balance any POV that is expressed (even by hint) in it. Why ?
Because it is policy that the lead "should stand on it's own".
The lead should be treated as a "mini article".
Any article, (including the lead) should be NPOV (100% NPOV).
This is why it is important to explain that exitense of the checkpoints is also a human rights issue (protecting lifes of Israelis from terror). I don't care if we do it in our words but the quote from halutz is accurate and concise about this very issue:
"Humanitarianism is not exclusively owned by Machsom Watch and it is tested not only at the checkpoints, but also in preventing suicide bombers from reaching the markets of Tel Aviv and Netanya."
Also:
The women positive contribution in changing the situation in checkpoints is worth being in the lead.
Zeq 04:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia: Lead section: "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." SlimVirgin (talk) 05:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added one small sentence to the lead of criticism; it's very short, and should be good enough. Zeq, please avoid editing the lead, or, really, any other parts of the article either. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 05:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Jay,
Please read the note to slim above. Your edits are not "enough" in NPOVing this article lead. Zeq 05:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
El C, now you don't even say what the group is. Just that they exist and have been criticized. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but not at such length with the quoting and so on. Hepedia says:
מטרתן המוצהרת היא לשמור על זכויות האדם של הפלסטינים העוברים במחסומים
Their expressed mission is to ensure the human rights of Palestinians who pass through the checkpoints [barriers].
Brief and to the point, I tried to cover that just now. El_C 06:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
When I stopped editing last night, the intro had settled to more or less what it was before El C's latest revert: a good description of the group in its own words, balanced by one sentence of general, sourced criticism. Then others added more praise, which caused it to become unbalanced again, but at least the criticism was still there. When I got back on tonight, I saw the criticism had gone again, and I assumed Zero had removed it. Now that I check, I see it was in fact Zeq who removed it. [18] But Zeq wants criticism in the intro, so can you say, Zeq, what your intention was in removing it? This is the second time you've done it. The first time you said it was a mistake.
My apologies to Zero for assuming it was him. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC) No problems, Slim, we are all getting too stressed around here. -- Zero 10:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Slim,
My intention was to avoid edit wars so I broke down to two steps:
I appologize if this was not clear. In anycase, there is an RFM about this very issue and I hope it will go through with everyone participation. Zeq 06:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I still don't get it. What's with having the group describe themsleves in their own words? Why is that so essential to be in the lead? I agree with the Hebrew Wikipedia's approach of only providing a summary of its aim and composition. That self-description was too lengty for the lead. That IDF passage (which Jay shortened) was also too lengthy. And let's try to refrain from undue exclamations, figurable and otherwise. El_C 06:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Just calling them "an organization...known for its opposition to the Israel Defense Forces checkpoints" doesn't describe them well enough, imo. They are not just a political pressure group, they actually go to the checkpoints every day and play a role there. I think this is the most important thing about them and we should make sure the introduction says that. Actually this was not terribly clear with the previous description either and I've been meaning to bring it up when (whiff of optimism there) things settled down. -- Zero 07:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
My description of what they actually do (mostly personal knowledge, not for the article in this form): The women go to the checkpoints in groups of 2 or 3. Women in the group who are active usually spend one day or one afternoon per week doing this. All the checkpoints in the Jerusalem area are covered and also some a bit further away (but not those with Area A on both sides as the women can't legally go there). How they behave at the checkpoints varies between the women and according to the circumstances. Some women just stand around and watch, others try to get involved in whatever is going on. For example, if Palestinians are being detained they will ask the soldiers why they are detained and might (or might not, depending on the answer) argue with the soldiers about it. A very common thing (happens several times per day usually) is that the women will call an IDF superior officer on the phone and complain that the soldiers are not behaving properly. This works surprisingly often and the soldiers soon get an order from above to open another checking line, process someone who has been waiting a long time, or similar. Sometimes the women will call a different human-rights group if the problem is something (eg. legal or medical) that they can't handle. Another thing they do is to give advice to Palestinians on things like where to go to get various permits, how to write something in Hebrew, etc. Some of the soldiers are friendly to the women but most are not, and some are very hostile (calling them "whores" etc). Sometimes Palestinians are hostile to them as well (they are Israelis after all), but that is now unusual since word got around that they are 'ok'. The fact that the soldiers are about the same age as the womens' children makes for an interesting social dynamic that would make a good topic for a social studies PhD. -- Zero
something along the lines of "Checkpoints, which Israel says are vital to stop suicide bombers flooding into its cities to terrorise civilian population." (this is a quote from BBC) Zeq 10:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
As the criticism in the article draws heavily on material from NGO Monitor it's worth noting that its parent organization, the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, is funded by the American junk bond fraudster Michael Milken who was convicted on 98 counts of insider trading that resulted in the misappropriation of billions of dollars of public sector funds. Milken also funded Justus Reid Weiner's notorious attack on Palestinian rights activist Edward Said. According to Gabbard and Saltman the Center is an extension of Milken's campaign to privatize public schooling in the US and "lobbies for privatization of Israel's economy and education system". (All of the above from p.6: Gabbard, David A. and Saltman, Kenneth J. (2003). Education As Enforcement: The Militarization and Corporatization of Schools. London: Routledge. ISBN 0415944899). -- Ian Pitchford 11:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
That Ian, is what is called poisoning the well. Like saying George Bush recieved money from Enron and Keneth Lay so he is not allowed to be president. It is guilt by association to the extreme.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not for the article, just a caution about the credibility of self-appointed guardians of ethical standards. Editors in Israel might also like to watch their pockets when these guys are around :-) -- Ian Pitchford 11:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence, including a quote from The Guardian has been inserted into the article:
According to Linda Grant of The Guardian, who toured Israeli checkpoints with members of Machsom Watch in 2003, the criticism of Machsom Watch is tempered by "a growing climate of opinion in Israel, including from a former Likud mayor of Tel Aviv, that the checkpoints only exist to harass the Palestinian population and are ineffective at stopping suicide bombers."
The original article does not say that the "climate of opinion in Israel" somehow "tempers" the criticism of Machsom Watch. The quote in question comes from a paragrpah that simply provides a background on what the author sees as changes in the Israeli public opinion, and the quote is entirely unrelated to the criticism of MW. Thus, I have removed the sentence in question. Pecher Talk 21:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Apparently this Yossi Olmert we quote here is the brother of Acting Israeli PM Ehud Olmert. Just thought I'd share this discovery with you. -- Zero 22:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there is any reason to suggest his view isn't applicable because his brother is acting prime minister. Once again that is poisoning the well (I know it is just the talk page, but still).- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The "violin incident" is only a few lines of a long section, do we need it in the section heading? I propose "Criticism and praise" instead. -- Zero 00:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that is necessary, it is almost 1/5 of the section, and people probalby believe that that incident best exemplify's their view that the organization is bias.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
" critisied by IDF for allegedly disrupting the operation of checkpoints"
They have been critised for "alegedly" the critism is about disruption.
Once we state the source (IDF) we should stick to what that source said and avoid the word alegedly. (is this what's called weasle word ?)
Removing this word would not mean we endorse the view of the IDF just that we quote their allegations as they see it. This is part of their POV and it is 100% NPOV to prsent both POV side by side. Zeq 05:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I just want to remind everyone that there is an RFM about this page. At the root of the issue s to add info which explain the environment in which these checkpoints exits and reasons for that. This is a POV that is missing. Zeq 07:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Ian, this isn't an article about the checkpoints and what people in Israel think about them. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
My opinion is that the article should focus on topics closely concerning Machsom Watch and avoid sliding off into related topics. For example, I would delete the links to both Weiss' and Levy's articles. They would fit in the article on checkpoints, which is barely developed yet. I didn't look at the bits of text under debate here. -- Zero 00:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I have added to this article reference to a piece from the Irish Times in which the journalist explains, as part of her interview with Colonel Erez Weiner, the IDF`s operations director in the West Bank, that the army listens to Machsom Watch. This is an interesting and important observation published in a reliable publication. It belongs in the article.
Given that we have Yossi Olmert's viewpoint in the article that the group's "activists disrupt the work of soldiers at checkpoints who are trying, not always successfully, to prevent the entry of terrorists" it is reasonable to represent the scepticism in Israel about the value of checkpoints for security as expressed in Linda Grant's article on Machsom Watch. In Wikipedia we don't represent one side of an important debate.
I see no justification for Pecher's repeated deletion of this material, particularly as both publications are more reliable and have better quality control than many of the sources quoted and cited in the article, e.g., NGO Monitor, Arutz Sheva etc. -- Ian Pitchford 22:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I can easily find links that describe abuse of Palestinians at checkpoints and the serious effects that checkpoints have on Palestinian life. Finding more than 100 would be no problem at all, and many of them defer directly to Machsom Watch. I offer not to add any of them. All you have to do is to stop adding links that claim to show benefits of checkpoints. This is not an article about the checkpoints (we have another for that), but only about Machsom watch. -- Zero talk 11:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that just fw days ago it was Zero himself who added this links. With the edit summary: "OK, have it your way" [21].
Now, Zero has removed these links for no good reason, even those he him self added just days ago: [22] .
I added that article in response to someone else insisting on inserting an inappropriate link. I have always expressed the opinion that all such links are inappropriate. As for disruption, everyone here knows your record. -- Zero talk 00:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero,
Thanks in advance for your reply, Zeq 11:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Pecher to remove it, this is just too biased to be linked to without good reason. Also, I am getting really tired of commenting Zero's personal attacks. Zero, could you please stop doing that? -- Heptor talk 18:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Ramallite writes that he was uncarefull when he glanced over the previous discussion. This is more than I can be accused of, I didn't look at the matter in context of any previous discussion. I just think that fromoccupiedpaletine.org is too agitatoristic to be linked to from Wikipedia, at least if same information can be found in other places. This is based both on the choice of domain name, selection of articles and the ticker counting US aid to Israel from 1949. The fact that Zero reverted another editor while throwing a personal attack at him [25], didn't help either. -- Heptor talk 17:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
see the example in:
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief3-8.htm
Zeq 18:51, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Palmiro,
We are not going to debate the merits of checkpoints here I hope. This is sourced and this seems all we need for wikipedia. I am sure there are discussion groups to discuss these issues in greater lenghth. BTW, I am not sure all that you asked me to justify is evenn 100% true and surly I am not the one to ex[plain the complex situation between israel and the west bank. Clearly terrorist are able to penetrate and Israel trying to prevent it. Just today a suicide bomber was caught in a checkpoint east of Nablus: [27] Zeq 19:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Not that it's my business, but I'm currently witnessing an edit war between Huldra and SlimVirgin, and have to say I support SlimVirgin's version. There are many facts out there which are contested and therefore must be put down as allegations. For example, in Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, everything is written as an allegation, even though many of those things are widely known to be true. -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 12:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
While I know that what Palmiro wrote is more or less correct (this is my OR which can not be used in wikipedia) I agree with Pecher that the source does not support what is written. Palmiro: Can you find a btter more accurate and more descriptive source ? Zeq 16:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I have slightly modified the page to explain how the group has been discredited because anti-semetic groups have quoted them out of context- [[User:]] 08:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Give me a break, the only criticism you provided makes it seem like only right wing fascists disagree with the group, Machsom Watch is a fringe group. If your problem was just my choice of language you would have written something yourself since you wouldn't know as much about the group if you didn't also know it had very little support inside Israel or the Jewish community. Are you just disingenuious, stubborn, or are you trying to promote a particular viewpoint?
Look I really don't want to get into an edit war so if you have a certain attachment to your article or take issue with my writing, you can write something, but I am not going to let nothing be written about real opposition to the group. I would understand if it was a controversial group that still generally had a lot of support, but writing about Machsom Watch and leading the reader to believe what you have written is wrong.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
I've re-added that paragraph with sources. This is very clear as far as I can see. Moreover, the MW accused Israeli soldiers of laughing, while they didn't laugh in the video (I remember seing it on TV, they didn't laugh). Besides, it's a littles senseless to have a section and MW criticisms without listing a single thing they did wrong, don't you think? -- Ynhockey || Talk 04:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
As much as I would hate to I think I am going to agree with Zero on this one, the passage is unnecessarily political, and too POV. If you can find some criticism that is more appropiate I think it would be helpful to the article.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
Zero and I weren't even talking about that paragraph. The one you removed is a quote from a website. -- Ynhockey || Talk 05:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Well I was actually referring to that paragraph as well. The one I removed was also inappropriate I thought, I know you didn't change it or anything and it was properly cited, but honestly the quote seemed improper.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
I agree it was a bit harsh, but I'm trying to represent a major viewpoint of those who are opposed to Machsom Watch - it is a prevailing opinion within Israel that the organization isn't helping anyone, and it's unfair that an article about it will only have good things. By comparison, the article on Ariel Sharon, who has much more support within the country he represents, lists a load of criticisms (scattered all over the article). I think the way it is right now (without that IDFIsrael quote) is fine, but if you disagree, we should reach a consensus regarding acceptable criticism of MW. -- Ynhockey || Talk 06:30, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Believe me I know that there should be more criticism of Machsom Watch in the article (just scroll up on this talk page) my impression is that by including your quote it actually kinda underminded our cause.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
"Known blunders of Machsom Watch have included falsely accusing the IDF of forcing a Palestinian violinist to play his violin at a checkpoint, a story which was printed worldwide. It was later discovered that the violinist was playing at his own will."
While I didn't add that last paragraph, or its source, I maintain that if palestineremembered can be used as a source for dozens of articles, so can Arutz Sheva. If you remove Arutz Sheva, please remove all information taken from palestineremembered. Otherwise, please restore the paragraph. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 09:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero, give us a break, Palestine Remembered is neutral huh? here is an excerpt from their website: "Are you aware that Israeli Zionists, during the 1948 war, pushed over 150,000 Palestinian refugees into the sea?, For a long time, Zionists have been propagating fear based propaganda to their followers". Even by itself it is unacceptable to even consider the website as a source but it is even worse to claim it is somehow more neutral than Arutz 7. Its time to stop editing under a veil of neutrality Zero.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The "Criticism" section is nearly as long as the description section, which is long enough. Let's start a praise section. -- Zero 10:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, as it stands, the description section is already pretty much a praise section, an additional praise section would be ludicrous.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Arutz Sheva Israel National Radio, while it is not Wikipedia policy that it cannot be used as a source, it is Zero0000's longstanding policy that it cannot be used as a source. There is no question that it is a biased news source. Is it more biased than, say, Al Jazeera? I doubt it. More biased than The Daily Mirror. Not sure. Than CNN? Certainly. As for www.palestineremembered.com, that's a propaganda website, not a news source, but I don't see where it is used in this article, or where Zero0000 has used it as a source. Jayjg (talk) 07:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
If Zero is correct in his assertion then I would agree with his conclusion, also although Al jazerra is definitely bias, it seems to be at least less blatant then the Arutz 7 website.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that when you are born and grow up somewhere else you are usually not considered ---i or ----an. My grandma is Hungarian not American, is this not the case?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Palmiro, why did you revert my edit? How is it 'very bad' to increase the coherence of an article? I mean, how does this read to you?
Their stated aims are to:
Doesn't seem very coherent to me. The quotes are not necessary either, as direct speech is unencyclopedic and should, when possible, be replaced with reported speech.
-- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 20:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
They clearly spell this out and there is nothing wrong with being political. Zeq 19:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
If you have objections to sourced contnet use talk.
You removed a sourced material. Pleas avoid removing such material. You have also removed material which presented the POV of the those who think there is a need to take care of everyone's human rights. The right of the jews not to be killed is also a human right. This is an NPOV encyclopedia and all POV must be represented. Clearly the POV of the Mchsom Watch is represnted but the other view was not. Not the whole Haaretz article must be brought into Wikipedia how ever the main POV about the subject of the article should be. Zeq 11:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree to quote Dan Halutz in the introduction of this article just as soon as Machsom Watch is quoted in the introduction of Dan Halutz. Also, stop adding the link to Haaretz - a week or two from now it will be dead. -- Zero 23:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I think an IDF point of view should be in the lead, but don't think it should be as long and detailed. Perhaps something like: In response to the above stated aims, the IDF, which maintains the checkpoints, responded that human rights lie not only in the protection of Palestinian civilians at checkpoints, but also in the protection of Israeli civilians from terrorist acts.
I realize there may be a few problems with that, because not only is it slightly different than what Halutz really said, but also the IDF spokesman is the official voice of the IDF, not Halutz. However, I suggest a wording which responds to MW but mentions only the IDF as a body (or the spokesman at most), but not Halutz. -- Y
Ynhockey ||
Talk Y
05:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Outrageous! Please go to IDF and quote the opinion of Hamas in the introduction, then we will have something to discuss. This is 'not an article on checkpoints, nor is it an article on human rights. First we describe the topic of the article, then we give external opinions and comments on it. That's how good articles are structured. -- Zero 09:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to go with Ynhockey on this one, the IDF POV is definitely relevant here but I would say it is faulty reasoning to suggest that their view should be just as thouroughly represented as Machsom Watch's, after all this is the MW article.
Also I think it is unreasonable to suggest that Yan's voice is more authoratative that the IDF spokesman just because he is of higher rank, the Generals in most countries including Israel have been known to make unofficial public remarks that are contrary to their nation's established policy.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we could just make the current intro more innocuous and add something like "...is a controversial group".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 12:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Zero, look at the AIPAC talk section - he got you there, Zero. Just because an organization acts for the insterest of Israel doesn't mean it should be criticized while organizations which are against Israel's interests should only be praised. If you support praise+criticism in AIPAC, then you should support it here as well. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
by saying that the group is "controversial" we did not say much. NPOV policy is to describe the controvesy.
The group web site is quoted on the 1st paragrph. This is one POV. The other POV (not even about the group itself, i.e. not a direct critism of it) but just a different view of the main issue : i.e. Human rights is something that BOTH palestinians and Israelis have a right too. So this view (about the actions taken by IDF, the actions that the group protest against) must balance the group own claims. This is the essence of the NPOV policy.
I would love to have an ArbCom case about it and let them decide. It is a win-win.
The article now is conforming to NPOV policy or maybe by quoting the group it is quoting propeganda.
MY Suggestion to Zero:
Follow Dispute resolution process: File for mediation, conduct a poll. If it does not get your way, I would like to see this get to ArbCom. (same about sarafend btw). In anycase I suggest that you stop the edit war about it. Zeq 22:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I should mention that my comment asking zero to look at the AIPAC article did not have to do with this article, but was a seperate matter. Sorry- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like for now to pose this as a question. Zeq 21:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero has at first tried to remove the quote from haaretz. After he understood he can not delete it he now tries to push it to the last line and the last paragrpah of this article.
NPOV policy is that we describe the controversy. We present both POV (in this case on the question of "what is Human rights ?"
Zero, if you dispute this I suggest that you start a dispute resolution process. Conduct a poll, file for mediation - what ever. That is the proper way to handle disputes. I am aksing you again to stop the edit war about a legitimate edit. Zeq 05:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
{{RFMF}}
Hi Slim,
I think we had some edit conflict on checkpoint watch.
Anyhow:
The issue (IMHO) is to be NPOV about the checkpoints themself. Checkpointwatch has one view, most israelis has another view and they belive that the checkpoints protect israelis from terror.
Personally I think both are right. In any case, it is important to bring in the intro the watch goals (as they see them) and IDF head response about the broader Human rights issue. This is under mediation and you are welcome to join. I want to understand why you think critisim should go on top and not NPOV discussion about the chiken and egg about terror and checkpoints (which IMHO, is the controversy to describe) Zeq 22:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
פעילותן של מתנדבות מחסום-ווטש, לצד נסיונות הצבא להציג "כיבוש נאור" בעיני העולם, אכן הביאו לשיפור קל במחסומים, והפכו את ההישרדות היומיומית לנסבלת יותר. אולם מחסום-ווטש מתנגד לעצם הקמת המחסומים. במחסומים הללו ניתן לראות, על בסיס יומיומי, את ההשפלה והדיכוי המתמשכים - צבא כובש.
translation:
The activity of watch volunteers, along with the army attempts to present an "enlightened occupation" to the rest of the world, indeed brought slight imporvment in checkpoints and had turned the daily susrvival (of Palestinians) to somewhat bearable (spelling?). But Machsom-watch object the actual existense of the checkpoints - in thise chackpoints it is posible to see on a daily basis the humiliation caused by an occupation army,
from http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/690397.html
Last update - 23:55 05/03/2006
[ Text deleted for obvious copyright reasons. -- Zero 02:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC) ]
I looked at all the "citation needed" tags. It seems much of this article is direct quotes from how the group describe itself. The source is it's own web site. Zeq 04:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero justifies his edit war with: "Criticism in the introduction is a violation of normal article structure.) "
We may need ArbCom to rule on that. While NPOV policy is clear it may need more calrifications. Zeq 11:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that everyone look at this version: [2]
Dupliactions have been rmoved (as Zero corretly pointed out), each section is as NPOV as possible (I hope but I can be proven wrong) and all the info - including their postive contribution to what goes on in the checkpoints is mentioned. Zeq 13:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed this from the intro: "While the women presence in checkpoints have caused security forces to act with more restrain than in the past ..." because it needs to be sourced e.g. by adding "according to ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 15:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Slim,
The source is this Talk:Machsom_Watch#From_http:.2F.2Fwww.etgar.info.2Fwatch.html - Is this a good source?
Just a side note (not a source):
I can tell you from my won expiriance (I travel in the west bank for my work with the UN) that this is 100% correct - These women on one hand made a big difference in changing the IDF attitude. IDF has changed many procedure based on watch critisim and presence but sometimes they really disturbe the soldiers and help Palestinians cross to israel without security checks.
The one big problem, in the eyes of many watch women, was that their intentions (the real ones) were never to "improve" the checkpoints but they wanted to cancel them altogether. So now, some of them say that should not help the army improve the checkpoints conditions any more. Tough choice. Zeq 16:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Zeq, could you tell me please why you deleted the quote from the NGO Monitor about the "demonization of Israel"? [4] SlimVirgin (talk) 20:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not only is NGO Monitor being heavily relied on as a source, which is poor, but the citations given are inadequate. They ask the reader to "see linked articles", which is not at all clear. What linked articles? The ones linked at the end of the entry on Machsom Watch? Only one of these is at all relevant and it does not support most of the claims it is cited in favour of (the only one it does support is the one on "false accusations", and even then this is not very accurate picture of NGOM's claims). And if this article, why is it not cited directly, and if not this article, what articles (article or articles, by the way) are in question? Palmiro | Talk 15:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
(copied from Zero's and SV's talk pages)
The introductory section of articles is supposed to introduce and define the topic of the article. Machsom Watch is not defined by the attacks that have been made on it. Please look at other articles on organizations and you will see that their leading sections do not include quoted criticism from others. I'm very surprised that you are taking this position contrary to normal practice and contrary to the obvious requirements of good article structure. Perhaps you will go to IDF and quote Machsom Watch in the first paragraph? I feel very strongly about this and am prepared to go to the wall on it. -- Zero 00:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This is utterly bizarre. The intro must be NPOV. Zero has decided that, by definition, criticism constitutes "too much detail," which is nonsense. I agree that we should discuss whose criticism to use, whether the IDF's or the NGO Monitor's, or someone else's. But the idea that there should be no criticism at all in the intro, when there is criticism readily available from reputable sources, is contrary to the NPOV policy and to all the guidelines about how to write a good lead section. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the intro as it is now is very good. It does not directly quote the IDF Chief of Staff, but summarizes the IDF's accusations and provides sources. You also cannot say that it's too detailed or takes too much space, because it's only 2 lines even compared to MW's stated aims, which is a 3-clause list, making it also grab more attention than the criticism. Good job SlimVirgin. I hope Zero doesn't revert this. On a site note, I too am baffled about why Zero doesn't agree to the RFM. If he is indeed enforcing Wikipedia policy, he should win the RFM, otherwise he should admit he is wrong. Avoiding the RFM is strange. -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 09:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The revrts by zero are getting disruptive. there was nothing in talk to justify the last revert [5]. Zero is engaging in edit war. I will not participate in the edit war. For the last time, I ask Zero to participate in Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#Machsom_Watch. (The issue is now clear: NPOV or not NPOV ?) Zeq 06:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I've put up my version for consideration. It balances the criticism with some praise and adopts the new format for references. Please feel free to amend it as appropriate. -- Ian Pitchford 10:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It does not make sense to have them both. This is getting ridiculus. Article sections should be NPOV and written well without duplication.
It is kind of a POV fork in the article itself: Zero gets the 1st paragrph to be as he wants it and in return we get two sections of counter-reactions. I do not accept this kind of solution .
The 1st paragrph need to be as short as possible and NPOV. The best way to do it is with the qoute from the IDF about why the checkpoints are need from a human rights perspective. Zeq 11:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Machsom_Watch&diff=43285824&oldid=43278316 Zeq 13:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Moving to left The one that Zeq linked to at the top of this section. Also, I mistakenly said that the quote is irrelevant to the article, which it isn't (Zeq pointed this out), what I meant was that it was irrelevant to the lead section. (You can see in the edit summary of my revert.) -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 18:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
as of this version [6] we still have two sections of counter-argument against the group (not sure why the IDF is "singld out" for a seprate section.
We also now have "prais" in the lead.
I suggest we shortenm the lead insteda of making it long.
IMHO the only description that should be in the lead is:
all the critism , praise etc should be off the lead. We should make the lead to stand on it's own.
Zeq 18:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
sure, I'll do that. why don't everybody stp editing for a while ? Zeq 18:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Your proposed lead is basically what we had before Palmiro's edit (the one you linked to in the previous section). Maybe it's better to analyze that lead and either agree on it or suggest improvements? The lead was:
Machsom Watch is a human rights organization composed exclusively of Israeli women. The word machsom is Hebrew for "checkpoint", in reference to Israel Defense Forces checkpoints in the West Bank and between the West Bank and Israel. The group also calls itself "Women for Human Rights".
The group's stated aims, according to its website, are to:
- monitor the behavior of soldiers and police at checkpoints;
- ensure that the human and civil rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected;
- record and report the results of their observations to the widest possible audience, from the decision-making level to that of the general public. [7]
Some members of the group see their role as protesting against the existence of the checkpoints. [8] [9]
Machsom Watch has been criticized by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and by several non-governmental organizations and individuals for allegedly disrupting the operation of checkpoints, showing hostility toward the soldiers, and making false accusations against them. [10] [11]
Other than not using the new reference format, I think this lead is by far the best we've had so far. -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 18:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Since Machsom Watch is fairly well known, it is likely that every single right-wing organization in Israel and many of those in the USA and Europe have said bad things about them. That doesn't mean we have to quote them all, especially if their comments are more or less the same as the others. We should only quote a few representative examples. Same with praise. (Maybe that means I agree with Ynhockey; actually I'm not sure.) -- Zero 12:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The following paragraoh has been inserted into the article:
In December, 2005 the European Parliament's Delegation for Relations with Israel found that 'The goals of the group are to monitor the behaviour of soldiers, to ensure that the human rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected, and to report back. It can thus be said that, today, there is much less physical violence than before, but verbal and behavioural violence has increased'
This quote conveys no new information to the reader, as the statement essentially repeats the stated goals of MW, which are given in the intro to the article. It does not follow directly from the quote that physical violence declined thanks to MW's efforts. If one reads the entire section of the report titled "8. Machsom Watch - women for human rights", one can see that the section contains lots of extraneous information unrelated directly Machsom Watch, but concerning checkpoints in general: for example, the sentence "The worst situation is in Hebron, where the presence of a 500 especially violent settlers has resulted in the city being divided in areas H1 and H2, something which makes impossible the daily life of 65,000 Arabs." or a statement that "[i]n 2004, 53 babies were actually born at checkpoints". None of this has anything to do with MW, so I have removed the paragraph. Pecher Talk 18:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Machsom Watch is a human rights organization composed exclusively of Israeli women.
The word machsom is Hebrew for "checkpoint", in reference to Israel Defense Forces checkpoints inside the West Bank and along entry points from the West Bank into Israel. The group also calls itself "Women for Human Rights".
According to its website[ [12] ], the group's aims are to:
- monitor the behavior of soldiers at checkpoints;
- ensure the human rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel via checkpoints;
- report their observations to wide audience: from the decision-making level to the general public.
Most members of the group see their role as protesting against the existence of the checkpoints. [13] [14]
The women presence in checkpoints had a positive effect of reducing phisical violence in the checkpoints and caused security forces to act with more restrain [15].
Machsom Watch has been criticized by the Israel Defense Forces in disrputing the operation of checkpoints, hostility toward the troops and legedly makng false accusations. During a two-hour meeting with members of the group in March 2006, IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz told the women that: " Humanitarianism is not exclusively owned by Machsom Watch and it is tested not only at the checkpoints, but also in preventing suicide bombers from reaching the markets of Tel Aviv and Netanya." [16]
The article now contains the following sentence sourced to The Irish Times: "The Israeli army claims that it has listened to Machsom Watch and is 'implementing training programmes to enable soldiers to carry out their work in the 'most moral and respectful way possible'." It is by no means self-evident that the statement from the IDF actually says that the programs were implemented in response to MW's criticism, so I am asking the editor who inserted the quote to provide a fuller quote from The Irish Times's article. It would also be great to have the exact quote of the IDF's statement so that we could ascertain that it was not quoted out of context. To me, the reference to training programs sounds like a routine response to criticism, not a change adopted under pressure. Pecher Talk 19:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Organizations, groups, etc. are not commonly called by the name of the person we imagine to head them, for any number of reasons. To begin with, the groups have proper names; if we thought it should always be called "Dore Gold's organization NGO Monitor" then we should change the name of the article to Dore Gold's organization NGO Monitor. Second, while Dore Gold, as the current head of the JCPA, is also the publisher of NGO Monitor, the actual editor of NGO Monitor is Gerald Steinberg. Third, Dore Gold could move on to another job next week, and we can't be going around updating all the articles to now call it "Moshe Stern's organization NGO Monitor". Fourth, you wouldn't describe other organizations this way; for example, you wouldn't describe Machshom Watch as "Ronnee Jaeger's organization Machshom Watch", or Amnesty International as "Irene Khan's organization Amnesty International". Jayjg (talk) 03:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Often my edits are uploaded suddenly when I'm still typing the edit summary. Does that happen to anyone else? The "arbeit macht frei" graffiti written on one of the "Hope of us all" signs was claimed by the group "Jews against Genocide" that has nothing to do with Machsom Watch. Quoting MW's denial without noting that the denial was proved correct is very naughty. If this incident is in the article at all (I vote "no") it should be reported honestly: as a malicious slander against MW that was refuted. -- Zero 04:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE stop reverting. The intro must have some criticism in it, no matter how brief. People who are reverting are not taking care to ensure that the material is not repeated elsewhere in the text, or that it flows correctly. Others are slapping in quotes from British newspapers without correct the spelling or the punctuation so it's consistent with the rest of the text. There were also sentences ending with a comma, and the material from the Guardian is arguably original research because this article isn't about whether the checkpoints should exist. Also, could I request that the references are not placed in the middle of sentences; it's hard enough to read for flow with them at the end. Please can we try to pay some attention to the writing? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
You wrote "The intro MUST have some criticism".
No, the lead should be 100% NPOV (not 50% NPOV, not 95%). It should have the correct amount of balance to balance any POV that is expressed (even by hint) in it. Why ?
Because it is policy that the lead "should stand on it's own".
The lead should be treated as a "mini article".
Any article, (including the lead) should be NPOV (100% NPOV).
This is why it is important to explain that exitense of the checkpoints is also a human rights issue (protecting lifes of Israelis from terror). I don't care if we do it in our words but the quote from halutz is accurate and concise about this very issue:
"Humanitarianism is not exclusively owned by Machsom Watch and it is tested not only at the checkpoints, but also in preventing suicide bombers from reaching the markets of Tel Aviv and Netanya."
Also:
The women positive contribution in changing the situation in checkpoints is worth being in the lead.
Zeq 04:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia: Lead section: "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." SlimVirgin (talk) 05:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added one small sentence to the lead of criticism; it's very short, and should be good enough. Zeq, please avoid editing the lead, or, really, any other parts of the article either. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 05:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Jay,
Please read the note to slim above. Your edits are not "enough" in NPOVing this article lead. Zeq 05:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
El C, now you don't even say what the group is. Just that they exist and have been criticized. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but not at such length with the quoting and so on. Hepedia says:
מטרתן המוצהרת היא לשמור על זכויות האדם של הפלסטינים העוברים במחסומים
Their expressed mission is to ensure the human rights of Palestinians who pass through the checkpoints [barriers].
Brief and to the point, I tried to cover that just now. El_C 06:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
When I stopped editing last night, the intro had settled to more or less what it was before El C's latest revert: a good description of the group in its own words, balanced by one sentence of general, sourced criticism. Then others added more praise, which caused it to become unbalanced again, but at least the criticism was still there. When I got back on tonight, I saw the criticism had gone again, and I assumed Zero had removed it. Now that I check, I see it was in fact Zeq who removed it. [18] But Zeq wants criticism in the intro, so can you say, Zeq, what your intention was in removing it? This is the second time you've done it. The first time you said it was a mistake.
My apologies to Zero for assuming it was him. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC) No problems, Slim, we are all getting too stressed around here. -- Zero 10:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Slim,
My intention was to avoid edit wars so I broke down to two steps:
I appologize if this was not clear. In anycase, there is an RFM about this very issue and I hope it will go through with everyone participation. Zeq 06:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I still don't get it. What's with having the group describe themsleves in their own words? Why is that so essential to be in the lead? I agree with the Hebrew Wikipedia's approach of only providing a summary of its aim and composition. That self-description was too lengty for the lead. That IDF passage (which Jay shortened) was also too lengthy. And let's try to refrain from undue exclamations, figurable and otherwise. El_C 06:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Just calling them "an organization...known for its opposition to the Israel Defense Forces checkpoints" doesn't describe them well enough, imo. They are not just a political pressure group, they actually go to the checkpoints every day and play a role there. I think this is the most important thing about them and we should make sure the introduction says that. Actually this was not terribly clear with the previous description either and I've been meaning to bring it up when (whiff of optimism there) things settled down. -- Zero 07:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
My description of what they actually do (mostly personal knowledge, not for the article in this form): The women go to the checkpoints in groups of 2 or 3. Women in the group who are active usually spend one day or one afternoon per week doing this. All the checkpoints in the Jerusalem area are covered and also some a bit further away (but not those with Area A on both sides as the women can't legally go there). How they behave at the checkpoints varies between the women and according to the circumstances. Some women just stand around and watch, others try to get involved in whatever is going on. For example, if Palestinians are being detained they will ask the soldiers why they are detained and might (or might not, depending on the answer) argue with the soldiers about it. A very common thing (happens several times per day usually) is that the women will call an IDF superior officer on the phone and complain that the soldiers are not behaving properly. This works surprisingly often and the soldiers soon get an order from above to open another checking line, process someone who has been waiting a long time, or similar. Sometimes the women will call a different human-rights group if the problem is something (eg. legal or medical) that they can't handle. Another thing they do is to give advice to Palestinians on things like where to go to get various permits, how to write something in Hebrew, etc. Some of the soldiers are friendly to the women but most are not, and some are very hostile (calling them "whores" etc). Sometimes Palestinians are hostile to them as well (they are Israelis after all), but that is now unusual since word got around that they are 'ok'. The fact that the soldiers are about the same age as the womens' children makes for an interesting social dynamic that would make a good topic for a social studies PhD. -- Zero
something along the lines of "Checkpoints, which Israel says are vital to stop suicide bombers flooding into its cities to terrorise civilian population." (this is a quote from BBC) Zeq 10:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
As the criticism in the article draws heavily on material from NGO Monitor it's worth noting that its parent organization, the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, is funded by the American junk bond fraudster Michael Milken who was convicted on 98 counts of insider trading that resulted in the misappropriation of billions of dollars of public sector funds. Milken also funded Justus Reid Weiner's notorious attack on Palestinian rights activist Edward Said. According to Gabbard and Saltman the Center is an extension of Milken's campaign to privatize public schooling in the US and "lobbies for privatization of Israel's economy and education system". (All of the above from p.6: Gabbard, David A. and Saltman, Kenneth J. (2003). Education As Enforcement: The Militarization and Corporatization of Schools. London: Routledge. ISBN 0415944899). -- Ian Pitchford 11:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
That Ian, is what is called poisoning the well. Like saying George Bush recieved money from Enron and Keneth Lay so he is not allowed to be president. It is guilt by association to the extreme.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not for the article, just a caution about the credibility of self-appointed guardians of ethical standards. Editors in Israel might also like to watch their pockets when these guys are around :-) -- Ian Pitchford 11:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence, including a quote from The Guardian has been inserted into the article:
According to Linda Grant of The Guardian, who toured Israeli checkpoints with members of Machsom Watch in 2003, the criticism of Machsom Watch is tempered by "a growing climate of opinion in Israel, including from a former Likud mayor of Tel Aviv, that the checkpoints only exist to harass the Palestinian population and are ineffective at stopping suicide bombers."
The original article does not say that the "climate of opinion in Israel" somehow "tempers" the criticism of Machsom Watch. The quote in question comes from a paragrpah that simply provides a background on what the author sees as changes in the Israeli public opinion, and the quote is entirely unrelated to the criticism of MW. Thus, I have removed the sentence in question. Pecher Talk 21:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Apparently this Yossi Olmert we quote here is the brother of Acting Israeli PM Ehud Olmert. Just thought I'd share this discovery with you. -- Zero 22:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there is any reason to suggest his view isn't applicable because his brother is acting prime minister. Once again that is poisoning the well (I know it is just the talk page, but still).- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The "violin incident" is only a few lines of a long section, do we need it in the section heading? I propose "Criticism and praise" instead. -- Zero 00:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that is necessary, it is almost 1/5 of the section, and people probalby believe that that incident best exemplify's their view that the organization is bias.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
" critisied by IDF for allegedly disrupting the operation of checkpoints"
They have been critised for "alegedly" the critism is about disruption.
Once we state the source (IDF) we should stick to what that source said and avoid the word alegedly. (is this what's called weasle word ?)
Removing this word would not mean we endorse the view of the IDF just that we quote their allegations as they see it. This is part of their POV and it is 100% NPOV to prsent both POV side by side. Zeq 05:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I just want to remind everyone that there is an RFM about this page. At the root of the issue s to add info which explain the environment in which these checkpoints exits and reasons for that. This is a POV that is missing. Zeq 07:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Ian, this isn't an article about the checkpoints and what people in Israel think about them. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
My opinion is that the article should focus on topics closely concerning Machsom Watch and avoid sliding off into related topics. For example, I would delete the links to both Weiss' and Levy's articles. They would fit in the article on checkpoints, which is barely developed yet. I didn't look at the bits of text under debate here. -- Zero 00:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I have added to this article reference to a piece from the Irish Times in which the journalist explains, as part of her interview with Colonel Erez Weiner, the IDF`s operations director in the West Bank, that the army listens to Machsom Watch. This is an interesting and important observation published in a reliable publication. It belongs in the article.
Given that we have Yossi Olmert's viewpoint in the article that the group's "activists disrupt the work of soldiers at checkpoints who are trying, not always successfully, to prevent the entry of terrorists" it is reasonable to represent the scepticism in Israel about the value of checkpoints for security as expressed in Linda Grant's article on Machsom Watch. In Wikipedia we don't represent one side of an important debate.
I see no justification for Pecher's repeated deletion of this material, particularly as both publications are more reliable and have better quality control than many of the sources quoted and cited in the article, e.g., NGO Monitor, Arutz Sheva etc. -- Ian Pitchford 22:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I can easily find links that describe abuse of Palestinians at checkpoints and the serious effects that checkpoints have on Palestinian life. Finding more than 100 would be no problem at all, and many of them defer directly to Machsom Watch. I offer not to add any of them. All you have to do is to stop adding links that claim to show benefits of checkpoints. This is not an article about the checkpoints (we have another for that), but only about Machsom watch. -- Zero talk 11:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that just fw days ago it was Zero himself who added this links. With the edit summary: "OK, have it your way" [21].
Now, Zero has removed these links for no good reason, even those he him self added just days ago: [22] .
I added that article in response to someone else insisting on inserting an inappropriate link. I have always expressed the opinion that all such links are inappropriate. As for disruption, everyone here knows your record. -- Zero talk 00:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero,
Thanks in advance for your reply, Zeq 11:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Pecher to remove it, this is just too biased to be linked to without good reason. Also, I am getting really tired of commenting Zero's personal attacks. Zero, could you please stop doing that? -- Heptor talk 18:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Ramallite writes that he was uncarefull when he glanced over the previous discussion. This is more than I can be accused of, I didn't look at the matter in context of any previous discussion. I just think that fromoccupiedpaletine.org is too agitatoristic to be linked to from Wikipedia, at least if same information can be found in other places. This is based both on the choice of domain name, selection of articles and the ticker counting US aid to Israel from 1949. The fact that Zero reverted another editor while throwing a personal attack at him [25], didn't help either. -- Heptor talk 17:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
see the example in:
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief3-8.htm
Zeq 18:51, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Palmiro,
We are not going to debate the merits of checkpoints here I hope. This is sourced and this seems all we need for wikipedia. I am sure there are discussion groups to discuss these issues in greater lenghth. BTW, I am not sure all that you asked me to justify is evenn 100% true and surly I am not the one to ex[plain the complex situation between israel and the west bank. Clearly terrorist are able to penetrate and Israel trying to prevent it. Just today a suicide bomber was caught in a checkpoint east of Nablus: [27] Zeq 19:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Not that it's my business, but I'm currently witnessing an edit war between Huldra and SlimVirgin, and have to say I support SlimVirgin's version. There are many facts out there which are contested and therefore must be put down as allegations. For example, in Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, everything is written as an allegation, even though many of those things are widely known to be true. -- Y Ynhockey ( Talk) Y 12:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
While I know that what Palmiro wrote is more or less correct (this is my OR which can not be used in wikipedia) I agree with Pecher that the source does not support what is written. Palmiro: Can you find a btter more accurate and more descriptive source ? Zeq 16:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)