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A suggestion for naming. Linked name = name of the Wikipedia article, followed by names in relevant official languages sorted in alphabetical order. Its a start, argue below. - FrancisTyers 00:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Can we agree to use new maps, created for the express purposes of this article, in order to provide a consistent appearance? If no-one else volunteers I will create them. - FrancisTyers 00:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
See right for my first bash at creating one for the geographical region. I took Image:Macedonia(R))(BWS).jpg and Image:Macedonia greece overview.png and tried to munge them together. Any suggestions, make them below. feel free to upload your own versions in its place. I created new higher res ones for the others too. Feel free to mess with them aswell. - FrancisTyers 02:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
/FunkyFly.talk_ 21:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll edit the maps to zoom in on the subject a little bit. I think the territories concerned are unproportionately small, and that ie Switzerland is unnecessary. I'll also try to see what I can do on the historic borders animated .gif map. Any thoughts on the names/letters/asterisks/crosses/punctuation marks/bullets/ vergina suns? :-) NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Done! Uploaded too. I'll include in the article soon. Check it please... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 15:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The immediate problem that springs up is one of reliable sources for the maps. Feel free to add to the sources below... - FrancisTyers 02:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the name "Greek Macedonia" self-identifying? Would Greeks use this to talk about Greek Macedonia? Furthermore, when Greeks talk about "Macedonia" do they ever use it to refer to the wider geographical area? - FrancisTyers 16:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
In Greece, people never specify, i.e. 'I come from Greek Macedonia', or Greek Chios, or Greek Thessalia. It is always just Macedonia, or Chios or Thessalia. When Greeks refer to ROM/FYROM, they say, 'I am trading with Skopia', 'I am visiting Skopia', 'my girl friend is from Skopia'. In this case, Skopia = the whole country. Politis 17:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
How much space should the naming dispute take up? I mean, its imperative that we provide either both sides or none, but it seems like this is just going to be a carbon copy of the section in the Foreign relations article. My initial suggestion is that we just have what the term is, why (pointing to the naming dispute) and the countries / organisations that use it. We can have a separate section of the article for "Related terminology" where we include "Republic of Skopje", "Skopia", "Skopjan", "Slavomacedonian" etc. - FrancisTyers 19:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I posted the text from the Greek Foreign Ministry site as is (and linked some words for clarif). I am not sure if it should all go there, but I wouldn't want to be the one who shortens it. Please see it and comment. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
...so I renamed it to Greek terminology. I added the meaning of each word, wikified. Discuss. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, no problems here, it was more of an incomplete list, but this works well for now. - FrancisTyers 20:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Aww, you removed "slavobulgar" :( That was one of my favourites... - FrancisTyers 21:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I found this definately articulate accusation when I searched on google for the term: "... BULGAR!YOU ARE WHAT YOU SPEAK! YOU ARE A MONGOLIAN SLAVOBULGAR!. " — but you're right, it seems to be seldom used :( Bulgaroskopian is pretty funny too :)) - FrancisTyers 21:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
See the intro:
Comments? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 23:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The Greeks invents the frappé and discovered that you can keep your packet of cigarettes tucked behind your belt. Everything else is artdzi-bourdzi-kai-loulas. Politis 17:40, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
If you'll humour me, I'd like to keep any links out for the moment.
- FrancisTyers 20:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Whay are there references to websites by what might be labelled extremists / ignoramuses? Each country has its official websites and we also have UN, EU, IMF, CIA and some academic websites; that should be enough. Politis 14:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a good source for the borders of the region as it is understood in geographical terms today? - FrancisTyers 16:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Are we imposing a 'Macedonia region' on Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia? None of those countries recognises a province or a region under that name on their territory, and none ever claimed to have such a region within their frontiers. Only Greece and ROM/FYROM make use of the name. Admitedly, Skopje can claim they have 'Macedonian Slav speakers', but then, western ROM/FYROM is mostly Albania, but no one claims it to belong to the Albanian region. Politis 16:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
So this is incorrect?
- FrancisTyers 23:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
So it isn't a geographical term like say the Caucasus or indeed the Balkans? - FrancisTyers 04:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The first one defines it under land and people link [8] as follows:
The second one [9] states in p.2:
Apparently they are contradicting... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 11:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I took the liberty of looking up "Macedonian" (I couldn't find "Macedonia") on the Oxford English Dictionary, quotations follow:
Regarding a group of people:
Regarding a language:
- FrancisTyers 11:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
well, i didnt know anything about macedonian as a dialect of modern greek- could somebody elaborate? in which areas of maceodmnia is it spoken? what are the differences of macedonian with thracian greek (i was unaware of its existence too)? is it a dialect in terms of vocabulary,grammar or accent? -- Greece666 17:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: yes there are tosk albanian speakers in greece (rather few now and all bilingual). aromanian is a form of romanian and aromanian and romanian speakers can understand each other. there are some ppl who speak slav dialects/languages in northern greece (rather few and all bilingual). (to avoid misunderstandings, the above is my personal opinion and i do not say what i say as a greek but as a student of history) your remarks are, in my opinion, correct.-- Greece666 19:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: well, this is an article on the various meanings of the word macedonia(n). im not sure it would be useful to add sthg on the languages spoken in macedonia- this maybe should be add to the macedonia(region) article.-- Greece666 19:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: well if as you say above you can link these languages with macedonia (macedo-romanian) maybe its useful at least to clarify that macedonian when referring to languages is a highly controversial term and has a wide variety of meanings.-- Greece666 19:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: in this case we also have to mention sefardim jews, who spoke a dialect of spanish.-- Greece666 19:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Greece666 19:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
avg made a new contribution to the article "It [ancient macedonian kingdom] was located in what today is Greek Macedonia."-- Greece666 19:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex: macedon existed as late as 148 BC. in my point of view, what you wrote, if it is not specified a) to which period it refers to and b) that this is a rough description, is misleading.-- Greece666 20:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
If someone points me to a map that everyone agrees is "Ancient Macedon" I'd be happy to make one in the standard format... It would be good to have a map for each "Macedonia" anyway. -
FrancisTyers 01:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
This is double standard logic. By the 4th century BC, the so-called ancient Macedonian language was replaced by Attic and Koine Greek in an official and popular level respectively. Yet we always state that it was the native language/dialect of Macedon, despite the fact that it gradually ceased to exist after Philip II. That simply means that our representative point of reference is the post-Philippic period. I don't see why we should use a different logic when we talk about the borders of Macedon, i.e. the areas settled by ancient Macedonians. The so-called Upper-Macedonia which was inhabited by Thraco-Illyrian tribes, was incorporated into the kingdom by Philip II, and is therefore part of an expantion which was irrelevant to the cultural status of Macedon altogether. In other words, we can't just say "ok, we'll use the 3rd century to define Macedon's borders and the 6th century to define its language". Therefore it is widely agreed that the representative period of Macedon is the post-Philippic era, where the Kingdom was inhabited by Macedonians, and used the Macedonian language. In that respect, the Kingdom was smaller than and contained within today's Greek Macedonia. And I hope this answers Greece666's query. Miskin 15:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I think this sums it up.
The language and land of "Macedonia" at different points though time | ||
---|---|---|
pre 4th century BC | post 4th century BC | |
Language | Ancient Macedonian language | Koine (Attic) Greek |
Land | Roughly Greek Macedonia | Later perceptions of the region* |
*Includes the Roman Province and today's perception. -- Telex 15:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Precisely. But default scholarly use of the term "Macedon" refers to its post-Philippic era. Therefore anything added beyond that will fall under original research. Miskin 16:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
So according to my friend Greece666 or whomever wants to disassociate Macedonia and Greece, Rome is located in Egypt, Israel or the UK, since these were the limits of the Roman empire.-- Avg 18:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Or something... I can't speak Latin for shit, but what I can do is create maps. Check out the map of the Macedonia province of the Roman Empire. I created it from [10], which seems to be non-partisan. As always, suggestions, comments, improvements all welcome. - FrancisTyers 11:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
From Francis' talk: Re this, I think mine was better, since the contemporary region map (even if unofficial) is more important to ancient/roman definitions -so it should be bigger-, plus the contradicting images of Μακεδονία and Македониа were exactly where they should be (politics section). Ofcourse, this is a matter of aesthetics, so feel free to disagree with my aesthetic POV! :-)
PS: That includes this attempt! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
What do you think of the captions btw? - FrancisTyers 14:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The north border of the province suspiciously follows the present Bulgarian border. Is that really the case? /FunkyFly.talk_ 16:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Francis and Funky, a Thema (neutral) cannot be Macedonia (not even in English - Macedonia is a noun, and here we need an adjective). A Thema can only be Makedonikon in Greek syntax (neutral adjective of Macedonia). Now call it Makedonec if you want, but syntax is syntax. For the border point you are right. The information I had is from the relevant link ( Byzantine army#The Themata and Themas_of_Byzantine_Empire). The borders are arbitrary (hence the approximate in the wording). However, the following things seem to be clear:
I tried to create a map that shows that Macedonia (Makedonikon Thema) was defined somewhat eastern than today (or during Roman/Macedon times). Now if you want to include Southern parts of present Bulgaria or Northern parts of present Greece, or both i think it's besides the point, but I'll be glad to do it if we have some source. In the meantime, i propose the following options:
Suggestions? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
This one also says:
Is it correct? Is it non-partisan? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC) THIS is definitely non-partisan! Gina Lolobrigitta... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I hit the jackpot: Most pro-Greek sites (like this one) specify something like:
While most pro-Skopjan sites (like the above) say that it was what we have selected as a Macedonia region in Wikipedia! So the precision of the region borders is clearly under dispute!
My point is, that if it is a historic (borderless) region, then it goes along with the inheritors of that history. It is undisputed that Greeks are the inheritors (not offsprings) of that history, so the region is defined within the Greek borders. Is this a partisan rationale? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Fran: I seriously doubt #1. Fmore, I am not certain if it is the key to the solution what people may think. Brittanica says so, and that is a non-partisan source. There is, however, a more detailed source that states otherwise. I didn't invent the wheel, and I think you should all do the same. I quoted before the link to the WP article of the region for boundaries and definitions. Now I am quoting the text:
According to the above higly non-partisan, well documented and more importantly to the point quote:
For what I know, WP has chosen to include partisan sources (many links above) in order to define the region. I will seek that this changes. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 23:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok. I've registered in Britannica and there's no citation whatsoever. Actually the article is quite similar (if not same) to the article available for non-subscribers. I don't know if I'm violating any copyright if I paste all info here for verification, that's why I only sent an exact copy-paste .doc to Francis by e-mail. I suppose we should follow his advice above and create "...a section of the article dealing with the difficulty of geographical definition." There should be equal if not greater emphasis on that point, since the map may be based on hearsay, whereas Wilkinson is very accurately sourced. We should also illustrate that the region map coincides with partisan sources. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a small note on the map of Ancient Macedonia; I don't think we should add the Chalcidic peninsula, as it wasn't controlled by Macedon before Philip II, but by free Greek city-states, united in the Chalcidic League.-- Aldux 22:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
i think the World Bank uses macedonia-- Greece666 13:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Had no idea. Just don't play with my nerves again please, Al... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 17:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Is Old Bulgarian just a name for Old Church Slavonic, the article would seem to suggest so. Or was there another language? If so I guess we should have an article on it. - FrancisTyers 23:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
So we should modify it accordingly like this:
and then we must add in the Bulgarian terminology:
I think that would solve it. I'll go through it right now. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I just presumed (bad start I know) from the Old Church Slavonic article. It doesn't sound terribly unlikely, but does anyone have a reference? - FrancisTyers 23:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure, since Bulgarians don't recognize "Macedonian" as a language, but only as a dialect, then presumably Old Church Slavonic for them, would be equal to Old Bulgarian. I may be wrong, ofcourse, but if I am not, then we should probably include it only in Bulagarian terminology, as follows:
Please notice "rarely" above, or consider removing the last phrase. Thoughts? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 17:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Macedonian is considered officially by Bulgaria as a dialect of Bulgarian, rather than as an independent language. Not true. [16] Not officially, however. -- FlavrSavr 00:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the last change in the article",i.e. the addition of the word "pseudo-science: in the balkans everybody considers the history of his neighbour as pseudo-science. i think the term should be removed. best-- Greece666 03:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I've cut the "FYROM" bit down somewhat to prevent unnecessary duplication. It is covered in full detail on the naming dispute page. This has the added benefit of not screwing up the politics box. - FrancisTyers 16:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
FrancisTyers - You stated that my conversion to the new style of references didn't work. If you mean Template:Geographical Macedonia, I fixed that separately. I made the reference in that template a footnote instead of a reference, and included the bottom footnote in the template itself. That way, even if you put the template in an article that doesn't have that reference, it will still have the footnote. I chose to use a letter rather than a number to avoid complications the article having the same footnote somewhere else. Armedblowfish 23:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
What is/was: UNIQ126375835454764e-HTMLCommentStrip4e8a75b36800eea700000002 - FrancisTyers 00:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A suggestion for naming. Linked name = name of the Wikipedia article, followed by names in relevant official languages sorted in alphabetical order. Its a start, argue below. - FrancisTyers 00:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Can we agree to use new maps, created for the express purposes of this article, in order to provide a consistent appearance? If no-one else volunteers I will create them. - FrancisTyers 00:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
See right for my first bash at creating one for the geographical region. I took Image:Macedonia(R))(BWS).jpg and Image:Macedonia greece overview.png and tried to munge them together. Any suggestions, make them below. feel free to upload your own versions in its place. I created new higher res ones for the others too. Feel free to mess with them aswell. - FrancisTyers 02:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
/FunkyFly.talk_ 21:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll edit the maps to zoom in on the subject a little bit. I think the territories concerned are unproportionately small, and that ie Switzerland is unnecessary. I'll also try to see what I can do on the historic borders animated .gif map. Any thoughts on the names/letters/asterisks/crosses/punctuation marks/bullets/ vergina suns? :-) NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Done! Uploaded too. I'll include in the article soon. Check it please... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 15:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The immediate problem that springs up is one of reliable sources for the maps. Feel free to add to the sources below... - FrancisTyers 02:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the name "Greek Macedonia" self-identifying? Would Greeks use this to talk about Greek Macedonia? Furthermore, when Greeks talk about "Macedonia" do they ever use it to refer to the wider geographical area? - FrancisTyers 16:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
In Greece, people never specify, i.e. 'I come from Greek Macedonia', or Greek Chios, or Greek Thessalia. It is always just Macedonia, or Chios or Thessalia. When Greeks refer to ROM/FYROM, they say, 'I am trading with Skopia', 'I am visiting Skopia', 'my girl friend is from Skopia'. In this case, Skopia = the whole country. Politis 17:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
How much space should the naming dispute take up? I mean, its imperative that we provide either both sides or none, but it seems like this is just going to be a carbon copy of the section in the Foreign relations article. My initial suggestion is that we just have what the term is, why (pointing to the naming dispute) and the countries / organisations that use it. We can have a separate section of the article for "Related terminology" where we include "Republic of Skopje", "Skopia", "Skopjan", "Slavomacedonian" etc. - FrancisTyers 19:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I posted the text from the Greek Foreign Ministry site as is (and linked some words for clarif). I am not sure if it should all go there, but I wouldn't want to be the one who shortens it. Please see it and comment. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
...so I renamed it to Greek terminology. I added the meaning of each word, wikified. Discuss. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, no problems here, it was more of an incomplete list, but this works well for now. - FrancisTyers 20:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Aww, you removed "slavobulgar" :( That was one of my favourites... - FrancisTyers 21:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I found this definately articulate accusation when I searched on google for the term: "... BULGAR!YOU ARE WHAT YOU SPEAK! YOU ARE A MONGOLIAN SLAVOBULGAR!. " — but you're right, it seems to be seldom used :( Bulgaroskopian is pretty funny too :)) - FrancisTyers 21:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
See the intro:
Comments? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 23:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The Greeks invents the frappé and discovered that you can keep your packet of cigarettes tucked behind your belt. Everything else is artdzi-bourdzi-kai-loulas. Politis 17:40, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
If you'll humour me, I'd like to keep any links out for the moment.
- FrancisTyers 20:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Whay are there references to websites by what might be labelled extremists / ignoramuses? Each country has its official websites and we also have UN, EU, IMF, CIA and some academic websites; that should be enough. Politis 14:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a good source for the borders of the region as it is understood in geographical terms today? - FrancisTyers 16:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Are we imposing a 'Macedonia region' on Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia? None of those countries recognises a province or a region under that name on their territory, and none ever claimed to have such a region within their frontiers. Only Greece and ROM/FYROM make use of the name. Admitedly, Skopje can claim they have 'Macedonian Slav speakers', but then, western ROM/FYROM is mostly Albania, but no one claims it to belong to the Albanian region. Politis 16:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
So this is incorrect?
- FrancisTyers 23:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
So it isn't a geographical term like say the Caucasus or indeed the Balkans? - FrancisTyers 04:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The first one defines it under land and people link [8] as follows:
The second one [9] states in p.2:
Apparently they are contradicting... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 11:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I took the liberty of looking up "Macedonian" (I couldn't find "Macedonia") on the Oxford English Dictionary, quotations follow:
Regarding a group of people:
Regarding a language:
- FrancisTyers 11:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
well, i didnt know anything about macedonian as a dialect of modern greek- could somebody elaborate? in which areas of maceodmnia is it spoken? what are the differences of macedonian with thracian greek (i was unaware of its existence too)? is it a dialect in terms of vocabulary,grammar or accent? -- Greece666 17:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: yes there are tosk albanian speakers in greece (rather few now and all bilingual). aromanian is a form of romanian and aromanian and romanian speakers can understand each other. there are some ppl who speak slav dialects/languages in northern greece (rather few and all bilingual). (to avoid misunderstandings, the above is my personal opinion and i do not say what i say as a greek but as a student of history) your remarks are, in my opinion, correct.-- Greece666 19:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: well, this is an article on the various meanings of the word macedonia(n). im not sure it would be useful to add sthg on the languages spoken in macedonia- this maybe should be add to the macedonia(region) article.-- Greece666 19:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: well if as you say above you can link these languages with macedonia (macedo-romanian) maybe its useful at least to clarify that macedonian when referring to languages is a highly controversial term and has a wide variety of meanings.-- Greece666 19:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
telex: in this case we also have to mention sefardim jews, who spoke a dialect of spanish.-- Greece666 19:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Greece666 19:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
avg made a new contribution to the article "It [ancient macedonian kingdom] was located in what today is Greek Macedonia."-- Greece666 19:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex: macedon existed as late as 148 BC. in my point of view, what you wrote, if it is not specified a) to which period it refers to and b) that this is a rough description, is misleading.-- Greece666 20:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
If someone points me to a map that everyone agrees is "Ancient Macedon" I'd be happy to make one in the standard format... It would be good to have a map for each "Macedonia" anyway. -
FrancisTyers 01:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
This is double standard logic. By the 4th century BC, the so-called ancient Macedonian language was replaced by Attic and Koine Greek in an official and popular level respectively. Yet we always state that it was the native language/dialect of Macedon, despite the fact that it gradually ceased to exist after Philip II. That simply means that our representative point of reference is the post-Philippic period. I don't see why we should use a different logic when we talk about the borders of Macedon, i.e. the areas settled by ancient Macedonians. The so-called Upper-Macedonia which was inhabited by Thraco-Illyrian tribes, was incorporated into the kingdom by Philip II, and is therefore part of an expantion which was irrelevant to the cultural status of Macedon altogether. In other words, we can't just say "ok, we'll use the 3rd century to define Macedon's borders and the 6th century to define its language". Therefore it is widely agreed that the representative period of Macedon is the post-Philippic era, where the Kingdom was inhabited by Macedonians, and used the Macedonian language. In that respect, the Kingdom was smaller than and contained within today's Greek Macedonia. And I hope this answers Greece666's query. Miskin 15:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I think this sums it up.
The language and land of "Macedonia" at different points though time | ||
---|---|---|
pre 4th century BC | post 4th century BC | |
Language | Ancient Macedonian language | Koine (Attic) Greek |
Land | Roughly Greek Macedonia | Later perceptions of the region* |
*Includes the Roman Province and today's perception. -- Telex 15:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Precisely. But default scholarly use of the term "Macedon" refers to its post-Philippic era. Therefore anything added beyond that will fall under original research. Miskin 16:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
So according to my friend Greece666 or whomever wants to disassociate Macedonia and Greece, Rome is located in Egypt, Israel or the UK, since these were the limits of the Roman empire.-- Avg 18:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Or something... I can't speak Latin for shit, but what I can do is create maps. Check out the map of the Macedonia province of the Roman Empire. I created it from [10], which seems to be non-partisan. As always, suggestions, comments, improvements all welcome. - FrancisTyers 11:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
From Francis' talk: Re this, I think mine was better, since the contemporary region map (even if unofficial) is more important to ancient/roman definitions -so it should be bigger-, plus the contradicting images of Μακεδονία and Македониа were exactly where they should be (politics section). Ofcourse, this is a matter of aesthetics, so feel free to disagree with my aesthetic POV! :-)
PS: That includes this attempt! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
What do you think of the captions btw? - FrancisTyers 14:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The north border of the province suspiciously follows the present Bulgarian border. Is that really the case? /FunkyFly.talk_ 16:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Francis and Funky, a Thema (neutral) cannot be Macedonia (not even in English - Macedonia is a noun, and here we need an adjective). A Thema can only be Makedonikon in Greek syntax (neutral adjective of Macedonia). Now call it Makedonec if you want, but syntax is syntax. For the border point you are right. The information I had is from the relevant link ( Byzantine army#The Themata and Themas_of_Byzantine_Empire). The borders are arbitrary (hence the approximate in the wording). However, the following things seem to be clear:
I tried to create a map that shows that Macedonia (Makedonikon Thema) was defined somewhat eastern than today (or during Roman/Macedon times). Now if you want to include Southern parts of present Bulgaria or Northern parts of present Greece, or both i think it's besides the point, but I'll be glad to do it if we have some source. In the meantime, i propose the following options:
Suggestions? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 22:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
This one also says:
Is it correct? Is it non-partisan? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC) THIS is definitely non-partisan! Gina Lolobrigitta... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I hit the jackpot: Most pro-Greek sites (like this one) specify something like:
While most pro-Skopjan sites (like the above) say that it was what we have selected as a Macedonia region in Wikipedia! So the precision of the region borders is clearly under dispute!
My point is, that if it is a historic (borderless) region, then it goes along with the inheritors of that history. It is undisputed that Greeks are the inheritors (not offsprings) of that history, so the region is defined within the Greek borders. Is this a partisan rationale? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 16:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Fran: I seriously doubt #1. Fmore, I am not certain if it is the key to the solution what people may think. Brittanica says so, and that is a non-partisan source. There is, however, a more detailed source that states otherwise. I didn't invent the wheel, and I think you should all do the same. I quoted before the link to the WP article of the region for boundaries and definitions. Now I am quoting the text:
According to the above higly non-partisan, well documented and more importantly to the point quote:
For what I know, WP has chosen to include partisan sources (many links above) in order to define the region. I will seek that this changes. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 23:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok. I've registered in Britannica and there's no citation whatsoever. Actually the article is quite similar (if not same) to the article available for non-subscribers. I don't know if I'm violating any copyright if I paste all info here for verification, that's why I only sent an exact copy-paste .doc to Francis by e-mail. I suppose we should follow his advice above and create "...a section of the article dealing with the difficulty of geographical definition." There should be equal if not greater emphasis on that point, since the map may be based on hearsay, whereas Wilkinson is very accurately sourced. We should also illustrate that the region map coincides with partisan sources. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 14:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a small note on the map of Ancient Macedonia; I don't think we should add the Chalcidic peninsula, as it wasn't controlled by Macedon before Philip II, but by free Greek city-states, united in the Chalcidic League.-- Aldux 22:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
i think the World Bank uses macedonia-- Greece666 13:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Had no idea. Just don't play with my nerves again please, Al... NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 17:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Is Old Bulgarian just a name for Old Church Slavonic, the article would seem to suggest so. Or was there another language? If so I guess we should have an article on it. - FrancisTyers 23:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
So we should modify it accordingly like this:
and then we must add in the Bulgarian terminology:
I think that would solve it. I'll go through it right now. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 19:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I just presumed (bad start I know) from the Old Church Slavonic article. It doesn't sound terribly unlikely, but does anyone have a reference? - FrancisTyers 23:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure, since Bulgarians don't recognize "Macedonian" as a language, but only as a dialect, then presumably Old Church Slavonic for them, would be equal to Old Bulgarian. I may be wrong, ofcourse, but if I am not, then we should probably include it only in Bulagarian terminology, as follows:
Please notice "rarely" above, or consider removing the last phrase. Thoughts? NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 17:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Macedonian is considered officially by Bulgaria as a dialect of Bulgarian, rather than as an independent language. Not true. [16] Not officially, however. -- FlavrSavr 00:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the last change in the article",i.e. the addition of the word "pseudo-science: in the balkans everybody considers the history of his neighbour as pseudo-science. i think the term should be removed. best-- Greece666 03:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I've cut the "FYROM" bit down somewhat to prevent unnecessary duplication. It is covered in full detail on the naming dispute page. This has the added benefit of not screwing up the politics box. - FrancisTyers 16:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
FrancisTyers - You stated that my conversion to the new style of references didn't work. If you mean Template:Geographical Macedonia, I fixed that separately. I made the reference in that template a footnote instead of a reference, and included the bottom footnote in the template itself. That way, even if you put the template in an article that doesn't have that reference, it will still have the footnote. I chose to use a letter rather than a number to avoid complications the article having the same footnote somewhere else. Armedblowfish 23:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
What is/was: UNIQ126375835454764e-HTMLCommentStrip4e8a75b36800eea700000002 - FrancisTyers 00:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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