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I have proposed a change from limiting the discussion of MacGuffins "in fiction" to their use "in a story." The edit was refused. Dictionary.com defines story as "a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader." An alternate would be "in a narrative."
The way the article now reads, a user might assume that MacGuffins are found only in fictional narratives. This is not supported by the Merriam-Webster definition of MacGuffin as a device found in either film or story. Fiction, while often interchanged with story, is a very limited range within story or narrative (which are equivalent). (see: /info/en/?search=Narrative) My attempt to edit comes from the awareness of MacGuffins in scriptural narratives. One of the editors of this page, Anita, seemed to discount the identification of MacGuffins in that genre because it was not fiction. Perhaps my concern could be dealt with by a footnote that informs the user that MacGuffins are also found in all forms of narrative? Or by the creation of another page that addresses MacGuffins in non-fictional narratives? Jeanninegrimm ( talk) 13:35, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
The opening of the article seems too bald and imprecise to me. You can't just say a MacGuffin is "unimportant" in itself. The Maltese Falcon, one of the examples given, is supposed to be worth a fortune. That's important to the characters, and would be to me if it was mine. The definition needs to be fuller, so that it can be more precise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willbown ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC) (Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment to sign please.)
In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin) is an object, device, or event that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself.
In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation. The MacGuffin's importance to the plot is not the object itself, but rather its effect on the characters and their motivations.
One of the sticky points here is how much to base the opening line on fallible encyclopedic references. I recently visited seven books (the five cited in the first sentence of the article, plus two I encountered nearby in the library), and found them mutually contradictory and often wrong (e.g. three of them claimed that Hitchcock invented the word himself).
One of the references simply defined the original meaning. Here is an excerpt:
Two demonstrated evolution in the term. Excerpts:
The other four references define a MacGuffin in a way that neglects a possible evolution in meaning. In other words, the authors imply that there's one everlasting definition. Key excerpts from their definitions:
The seven definitions can be grouped in other ways as well. Ping me if you want to see my photos of the full definitions (I'm not typing them up here!) including how each of the seven interpreted Hitchcock's role, etc. Or is someone now ready to write a more suitable opening line for the article? Mebden ( talk) 12:24, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Setting aside the concerns of experts in pop-culture, let's not forget: the key feature of a narrative may be character (e.g. bildungsroman), or comedic wit (e.g Adams, Heller, Pynchon), or pure style (e.g. Finnegans Wake). And so on, and on. Literature is peppered with vague motivations and mechanisms for why character X does action Y rather than action Z. Analysis of the McGuffin is like asking why does Monet's Vetheuil 1880 hint at poppies rather than realise them in detail. The answer is: he just doesn't—and simply because that detail is not important to the work (particularly within the style being used). Regarding the genre of Realism, concerns with the McGuffin may be legitimate; but since most art is not Realism, any focus on the device needs to be taken in context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.152.105.179 ( talk) 15:58, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
The following source is oddly formatted ('Dr.'s for example) and I cannot find it on Google Scholar:
Dr. Marjory T. Ward, "King Arthur Revisited" in Dr. Andrew Keen (ed.) "Proceedings of the Second History/Literature Conference on Medieval Literature"
Also there is no date given! Google Search shows "Marjory T. Ward" only in reference to this article; ditto for "Proceedings of the Second History/Literature Conference on Medieval Literature"
I am removing it. If it can be found, please put back in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:3902:b10a:e14d:2b32:6670:9a60 ( talk) 04:30, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I've twice had my example of "The Gold Bug" by E. A. Poe reverted. The first time it was because there was no reference so it was considered OR. I've found many many "examples" in Wiki without references, where the example is obvious. That the scarab beetle in The Gold Bug is a MacGuffin seems to be as obvious as stating that the protagonist of the story is unnamed. However, I went and looked, and found a reference. I re-reverted the reversion, giving a reference for a website. This website is a description of a series of games based on various works of Poe. In the description of each, there is a statement of how the game relates to the particular story. In the discussion of The Gold Bug, there is a bullet point labeled "MacGuffin Title" (described as a title containing a MacGuffin) and the statement that "there is an actual gold bug in the game". Isn't this a statement that Gold Bug, whether used in this game or in the short story, is a MacGuffin? There is no other explanation in the web article, no doubt because the writer felt like nothing else was required. Why would this be a MacGuffin if this writer didn't find it obvious that the original Poe title contained a MacGuffin? Anyway, another editor (Anita5192), reverted this and wrote "This reference says nothing about a MacGuffin in The Gold-Bug". I'm left to wonder if she actually drilled down on the article to find the MacGuffin discussion. Yes, the article is about the game, but there is no difference between how the game uses the title "The Gold Bug" and how Poe did. I wish to give a great example, from a classic piece of literature, of something utterly obvious (that the use by Edgar Allan Poe of the Gold Bug is a MacGuffin). This is so obvious that I doubt anybody else is going to explicitly state it in another reference. Practically ALL references to MacGuffins in the literature are like this, merely stating the fact of a MacGuffin instead of giving explicit details. How is this original research? Unfortunately, I don't know WP well enough to directly address this editor, but I'm hoping they will read this and undo their reversion. Roricka ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
I am suggesting adding Character as MacGuffin as a subtopic for this article with the example of the Krista Taylor character in the movie Tar (sorry I don't know how to make the accent over the "a" in this editor). The plot revolves around the decline in popularity and social standing of the main character Lydia Tar which is caused mainly by her interaction with the character Krista Taylor who is never seen except from the back of her head in a couple of early scenes, and KT's suicide. Interactions such as emails between LT & KT, KT's character assassinations by LT and gifts from KT to LT are central to the story, though the KT character is never explored otherwise. Looking for feedback and if acceptable some suggested narrative for the article. Chandoga ( talk) 13:32, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
MacGuffin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
1, 2, 3, 4 |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 10 sections are present. |
I have proposed a change from limiting the discussion of MacGuffins "in fiction" to their use "in a story." The edit was refused. Dictionary.com defines story as "a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader." An alternate would be "in a narrative."
The way the article now reads, a user might assume that MacGuffins are found only in fictional narratives. This is not supported by the Merriam-Webster definition of MacGuffin as a device found in either film or story. Fiction, while often interchanged with story, is a very limited range within story or narrative (which are equivalent). (see: /info/en/?search=Narrative) My attempt to edit comes from the awareness of MacGuffins in scriptural narratives. One of the editors of this page, Anita, seemed to discount the identification of MacGuffins in that genre because it was not fiction. Perhaps my concern could be dealt with by a footnote that informs the user that MacGuffins are also found in all forms of narrative? Or by the creation of another page that addresses MacGuffins in non-fictional narratives? Jeanninegrimm ( talk) 13:35, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
The opening of the article seems too bald and imprecise to me. You can't just say a MacGuffin is "unimportant" in itself. The Maltese Falcon, one of the examples given, is supposed to be worth a fortune. That's important to the characters, and would be to me if it was mine. The definition needs to be fuller, so that it can be more precise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willbown ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC) (Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment to sign please.)
In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin) is an object, device, or event that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself.
In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin) is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist pursues, often with little or no narrative explanation. The MacGuffin's importance to the plot is not the object itself, but rather its effect on the characters and their motivations.
One of the sticky points here is how much to base the opening line on fallible encyclopedic references. I recently visited seven books (the five cited in the first sentence of the article, plus two I encountered nearby in the library), and found them mutually contradictory and often wrong (e.g. three of them claimed that Hitchcock invented the word himself).
One of the references simply defined the original meaning. Here is an excerpt:
Two demonstrated evolution in the term. Excerpts:
The other four references define a MacGuffin in a way that neglects a possible evolution in meaning. In other words, the authors imply that there's one everlasting definition. Key excerpts from their definitions:
The seven definitions can be grouped in other ways as well. Ping me if you want to see my photos of the full definitions (I'm not typing them up here!) including how each of the seven interpreted Hitchcock's role, etc. Or is someone now ready to write a more suitable opening line for the article? Mebden ( talk) 12:24, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Setting aside the concerns of experts in pop-culture, let's not forget: the key feature of a narrative may be character (e.g. bildungsroman), or comedic wit (e.g Adams, Heller, Pynchon), or pure style (e.g. Finnegans Wake). And so on, and on. Literature is peppered with vague motivations and mechanisms for why character X does action Y rather than action Z. Analysis of the McGuffin is like asking why does Monet's Vetheuil 1880 hint at poppies rather than realise them in detail. The answer is: he just doesn't—and simply because that detail is not important to the work (particularly within the style being used). Regarding the genre of Realism, concerns with the McGuffin may be legitimate; but since most art is not Realism, any focus on the device needs to be taken in context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.152.105.179 ( talk) 15:58, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
The following source is oddly formatted ('Dr.'s for example) and I cannot find it on Google Scholar:
Dr. Marjory T. Ward, "King Arthur Revisited" in Dr. Andrew Keen (ed.) "Proceedings of the Second History/Literature Conference on Medieval Literature"
Also there is no date given! Google Search shows "Marjory T. Ward" only in reference to this article; ditto for "Proceedings of the Second History/Literature Conference on Medieval Literature"
I am removing it. If it can be found, please put back in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:3902:b10a:e14d:2b32:6670:9a60 ( talk) 04:30, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I've twice had my example of "The Gold Bug" by E. A. Poe reverted. The first time it was because there was no reference so it was considered OR. I've found many many "examples" in Wiki without references, where the example is obvious. That the scarab beetle in The Gold Bug is a MacGuffin seems to be as obvious as stating that the protagonist of the story is unnamed. However, I went and looked, and found a reference. I re-reverted the reversion, giving a reference for a website. This website is a description of a series of games based on various works of Poe. In the description of each, there is a statement of how the game relates to the particular story. In the discussion of The Gold Bug, there is a bullet point labeled "MacGuffin Title" (described as a title containing a MacGuffin) and the statement that "there is an actual gold bug in the game". Isn't this a statement that Gold Bug, whether used in this game or in the short story, is a MacGuffin? There is no other explanation in the web article, no doubt because the writer felt like nothing else was required. Why would this be a MacGuffin if this writer didn't find it obvious that the original Poe title contained a MacGuffin? Anyway, another editor (Anita5192), reverted this and wrote "This reference says nothing about a MacGuffin in The Gold-Bug". I'm left to wonder if she actually drilled down on the article to find the MacGuffin discussion. Yes, the article is about the game, but there is no difference between how the game uses the title "The Gold Bug" and how Poe did. I wish to give a great example, from a classic piece of literature, of something utterly obvious (that the use by Edgar Allan Poe of the Gold Bug is a MacGuffin). This is so obvious that I doubt anybody else is going to explicitly state it in another reference. Practically ALL references to MacGuffins in the literature are like this, merely stating the fact of a MacGuffin instead of giving explicit details. How is this original research? Unfortunately, I don't know WP well enough to directly address this editor, but I'm hoping they will read this and undo their reversion. Roricka ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
I am suggesting adding Character as MacGuffin as a subtopic for this article with the example of the Krista Taylor character in the movie Tar (sorry I don't know how to make the accent over the "a" in this editor). The plot revolves around the decline in popularity and social standing of the main character Lydia Tar which is caused mainly by her interaction with the character Krista Taylor who is never seen except from the back of her head in a couple of early scenes, and KT's suicide. Interactions such as emails between LT & KT, KT's character assassinations by LT and gifts from KT to LT are central to the story, though the KT character is never explored otherwise. Looking for feedback and if acceptable some suggested narrative for the article. Chandoga ( talk) 13:32, 21 May 2023 (UTC)