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![]() | On 15 September 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Lyttelton Harbour to Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | On 11 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō to Lyttelton Harbour. The result of the discussion was moved. |
What is the toponymy of Lyttelton Harbour? The article says the name was made official in 1858, however the source says this was Port Lyttelton and it seems to be saying Lord Lyttelton was officially consenting to the use of his name for the Port, not the Harbour. Has the source been misinterpreted, or is it wrong? The first reported use of Lyttelton Harbour that I can find comes from John Robert Godley in 1853, when he gave a speech to the Canterbury Association upon his return to England. The first use I can find in an official document is when describing the electorate for the Town of Lyttelton in 1858. Port Cooper was officially declared to be Port Victoria when it was declared a Port of Entry in 1849, while the Town of Lyttelton was officially proclaimed as a Town (effective 1 June 1850) on 29 May 1850. Additionally, Port Victoria is still being used as late as 1878 in official documents announcing election results, so I don't think that name has been extinguished officially. Also, Whakaraupō first appears in English as Wakaraupo Bay in a letter dated 4 May 1849 from Captain J. L. Stokes, H.M.S.V. Acheron, to Governor Grey; so I think the Maori language toponymy is entirely credible. As is the official dual name of Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō because this is readly found in the NZGB Place name Gazetteer. But the common name of this place is currently Lyttelton Harbour and the usage starts in newspapers from 1853, not from 1858. Why? There is no toponymy story for this recorded, but unofficial, place name that is in most common usage. The article doesn't explain the place name and I don't think anybody has properly researched it, either. So this is going to be rather tricky to explain if one is to avoid it being labeled "original research" - which it probably is. Even so, the current article, and especially the lead section, is inaccurate and uninformative in this respect and does need to have the place name and its usage properly explained. - Cameron Dewe ( talk) 07:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
What should really be in the History section? Most of what is there at the moment is more relevant to individual places in the harbour that have their own articles. There is nothing about the harbour's pre-history, European discovery, exploration, early settlement, survey, Canterbury Association settlement plans, and that just takes us up to 1850. There is one mention about Port development in the inner Harbour, but what happened with other harbour developments such as cross-harbour ferries, marina, land reclamation and tank farm, Roll-On-Roll-Off Ferries, the container port, Cruise ships, the 2011 earthquakes, earthquake recovery. Is any of this relevant or should it be covered in other articles? If it is the latter, there should be at least a sentence or so here that directs readers to where the item is dealt with more thoroughly. - Cameron Dewe ( talk) 21:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion consensus and WP:NCNZ. There may be an ongoing discussion about changing that convention, but for now, the current guideline is how we adjudicate and close discussions. When/if that guideline changes to not support dual names here, this can be revisited. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:54, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Lyttelton Harbour → Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō – official name since 1998 [2], time to move along now and update this. Gryffindor ( talk) 08:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
reflect[s] the consensus of the community. While these discussions are ongoing, I decline to present my own opinion on this proposed move. BilledMammal ( talk) 07:15, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Port Pegasus / Pikihatiti which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:03, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
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The article says the harbour has a surface area of 4000 km². According to page 6 of this report [1] by Environment Canterbury the whole of Banks peninsula has a total area of around 1000 km² so Whakaraupō cannot be anywhere near 4000 km². Wirikinihana ( talk) 07:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moved. Would have closed this as no consensus, given the clear impasse here. But as such a close requires that we have the article at the latest stable title. Unlike several other dual names, the dual name title of this article wasn't stabilized before the fateful RFC that repealed mandatory dual names was filed; this article was moved from the proposed title to the dual name only one day before the RFC started. The only other stable title available is the proposed title, so we should use it. ( non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 07:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō → Lyttelton Harbour – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Ngrams shows that Lyttelton Harbour is overwhelmingly used compared to Whakaraupo, which means that it is overwhelmingly used compared to any format of the dual name as all formats will include Whakaraupo. Google News shows the same thing, with 97 results in the past year for Lyttelton Harbour, compared to 23 results for Whakaraupō. BilledMammal ( talk) 03:40, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
the name most often used for this entity. — HTGS ( talk) 00:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
change having become predominant in common global usage, and WP:WIAN requires us to use reliable sources - none of the sources you provided meet the requirements of WP:RELIABLE. I also disagree with your assessment of WP:CRITERIA:
what the subject is actually called in English, not what the official name is, and per the evidence presented above it is actually called Lyttelton Harbour. Google Trends tells us the same thing.
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
![]() | On 15 September 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Lyttelton Harbour to Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | On 11 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō to Lyttelton Harbour. The result of the discussion was moved. |
What is the toponymy of Lyttelton Harbour? The article says the name was made official in 1858, however the source says this was Port Lyttelton and it seems to be saying Lord Lyttelton was officially consenting to the use of his name for the Port, not the Harbour. Has the source been misinterpreted, or is it wrong? The first reported use of Lyttelton Harbour that I can find comes from John Robert Godley in 1853, when he gave a speech to the Canterbury Association upon his return to England. The first use I can find in an official document is when describing the electorate for the Town of Lyttelton in 1858. Port Cooper was officially declared to be Port Victoria when it was declared a Port of Entry in 1849, while the Town of Lyttelton was officially proclaimed as a Town (effective 1 June 1850) on 29 May 1850. Additionally, Port Victoria is still being used as late as 1878 in official documents announcing election results, so I don't think that name has been extinguished officially. Also, Whakaraupō first appears in English as Wakaraupo Bay in a letter dated 4 May 1849 from Captain J. L. Stokes, H.M.S.V. Acheron, to Governor Grey; so I think the Maori language toponymy is entirely credible. As is the official dual name of Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō because this is readly found in the NZGB Place name Gazetteer. But the common name of this place is currently Lyttelton Harbour and the usage starts in newspapers from 1853, not from 1858. Why? There is no toponymy story for this recorded, but unofficial, place name that is in most common usage. The article doesn't explain the place name and I don't think anybody has properly researched it, either. So this is going to be rather tricky to explain if one is to avoid it being labeled "original research" - which it probably is. Even so, the current article, and especially the lead section, is inaccurate and uninformative in this respect and does need to have the place name and its usage properly explained. - Cameron Dewe ( talk) 07:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
What should really be in the History section? Most of what is there at the moment is more relevant to individual places in the harbour that have their own articles. There is nothing about the harbour's pre-history, European discovery, exploration, early settlement, survey, Canterbury Association settlement plans, and that just takes us up to 1850. There is one mention about Port development in the inner Harbour, but what happened with other harbour developments such as cross-harbour ferries, marina, land reclamation and tank farm, Roll-On-Roll-Off Ferries, the container port, Cruise ships, the 2011 earthquakes, earthquake recovery. Is any of this relevant or should it be covered in other articles? If it is the latter, there should be at least a sentence or so here that directs readers to where the item is dealt with more thoroughly. - Cameron Dewe ( talk) 21:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion consensus and WP:NCNZ. There may be an ongoing discussion about changing that convention, but for now, the current guideline is how we adjudicate and close discussions. When/if that guideline changes to not support dual names here, this can be revisited. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:54, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Lyttelton Harbour → Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō – official name since 1998 [2], time to move along now and update this. Gryffindor ( talk) 08:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
reflect[s] the consensus of the community. While these discussions are ongoing, I decline to present my own opinion on this proposed move. BilledMammal ( talk) 07:15, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Port Pegasus / Pikihatiti which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:03, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
|
The article says the harbour has a surface area of 4000 km². According to page 6 of this report [1] by Environment Canterbury the whole of Banks peninsula has a total area of around 1000 km² so Whakaraupō cannot be anywhere near 4000 km². Wirikinihana ( talk) 07:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moved. Would have closed this as no consensus, given the clear impasse here. But as such a close requires that we have the article at the latest stable title. Unlike several other dual names, the dual name title of this article wasn't stabilized before the fateful RFC that repealed mandatory dual names was filed; this article was moved from the proposed title to the dual name only one day before the RFC started. The only other stable title available is the proposed title, so we should use it. ( non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 07:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Lyttelton Harbour / Whakaraupō → Lyttelton Harbour – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Ngrams shows that Lyttelton Harbour is overwhelmingly used compared to Whakaraupo, which means that it is overwhelmingly used compared to any format of the dual name as all formats will include Whakaraupo. Google News shows the same thing, with 97 results in the past year for Lyttelton Harbour, compared to 23 results for Whakaraupō. BilledMammal ( talk) 03:40, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
the name most often used for this entity. — HTGS ( talk) 00:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
change having become predominant in common global usage, and WP:WIAN requires us to use reliable sources - none of the sources you provided meet the requirements of WP:RELIABLE. I also disagree with your assessment of WP:CRITERIA:
what the subject is actually called in English, not what the official name is, and per the evidence presented above it is actually called Lyttelton Harbour. Google Trends tells us the same thing.