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As now we have enough sources defining what "luxury car" is (from European Comission), I think it's time to restore AT LEAST SOME sections previously deleted Dino246 and 842U. Netrat ( talk) 17:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The current state of this article is an insult to anyone who knows just a little bit about cars! Your actions actually amount to vandalism!
You do seem to have a PERSONAL problem with the term "luxury", or perhaps just with the cars labeled as such.
Well, dude, there's is huge number of things on this planet whose definitions are ambiguous or not agreed upon by various individuals, but, somehow, many of those things have articles on wikipedia without being vandalised by people like you.
Your logic is unbelievable flawed! How about removing the term luxury completely from wikipedia just because you belive it's very abiguous and abstruse? According to your logic, people should be confused by any use of this term... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcos800 ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The issue of verifiability is central to Wikipedia articles. The cited articles are germain, if only because they highlight how little verifiable information they contain and how little verifiable information surrounds the use of the word "luxury." Aside from the Luxury real estate article, these are very poor articles by Wikipedia criteria: Luxury real estate: the article refers to a specifically defined and referenced term within specific geographic markets. Luxury yacht: the article contains two references and little verifiable information. Luxury resort: the article contains no references and no verifiable information. Luxury good: the article contains no references. Luxury box: the article contains no references.
Wikipedia isn't a repository for the conjecture of "people who know about cars." Articles are to be structured around reliable sources. Because there is no agreed threshold on "luxury car-ness" and because ascribing the descriptor to any product is itself an act of peacockery, it seems most appropriate to keep the article sober, referenced and free from the agrandizement the very word luxury suggests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.165.67.131 ( talk) 15:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
This article has no place in a reference work. There is not a single agreed upon definition of luxury, hence the entire article is conjectural.
I strongly suggest we start over with this article. Comments?
See Weasel Words. 842U ( talk) 23:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
A definitionally precise article would be great -- far better than reverting the article. Try to find that definition though. 842U ( talk) 00:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback on the article — your opinions are valuable here. Whatever happens, lets keep discussing this — there are no hard feelings, and maybe we can get to a place where the article really works.
In the meantime, if you read this entire discussion page, this issue has festered for a long time — ice picks aside, several folks have identified the deeply flawed nature of the article in its previous state.
We know SUV's derive from trucks, that Crossover's are built on unibody chassis, that a convetible allows open air driving — but what precisely do we know about luxury vehicles?
Granted, the current article is flawed too.
The current brief article is better than the long flawed article, because its easier to build on and revise. The sheer bulk of the last article gave credence to something for which there is no credence: that there is a definition for a luxury vehicle. 842U ( talk) 11:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This is great — with a few of us taking care to recraft the article, perhaps we can arrive at a functional reference. 842U ( talk) 12:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Dino, I have a problem with what you added, retracted it, and hope you will come up with a "sandboxed" edition that uses a less conjectural tone and reliable sources. 842U ( talk) 15:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Dino, in ref to your lates edit:
Some (see weasel words) motor manufacturers (who?) produce only luxury vehicles (again, what is this?) and these are considered (by whom?) to be luxury brands (again, what is this?). However, most (see weasel words) motor manufacturing companies have some sort of luxury vehicle (again, what is this) or luxury vehicle brand in their range and today, the term luxury vehicle is applied to some small cars and 4x4s as well as the more traditional four door saloons and Grand Tourer sports cars that were exclusively considered (by whom) to be luxury vehicles in the past.
It's ineffective to have this conversation about luxury vehicles, when the term itself is vague. Again, we need real sources here -- otherwise the article will become a lot of conjecture again. 842U ( talk) 13:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Unless one of the people who impose the old article can come up with one (an article) without using a large ammount of weasel words, or saying 'Luxury Vehicle is a biased term' in fancy wording, I will continue to revert the artcle back to it's orginal state because, although it has faults, it is much more accurate than the poor excuse being presented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.166.67.107 ( talk) 07:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, let's try and do this, but without arbitrary, contentious and subjective examples. Dry sourced definitions, nothing more. It must be clear that there is no consensus on what a 'luxury car' is, the second we start including examples we are objectivising a subjective topic and opening the door to arguments. Is a base X3 really a luxury car? Are Aston Martins luxury cars or grand tourers? Who are we to decide..? Dino246 ( talk) 18:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Unless there is an agreed upon metric for measuring luxury-ness of a car, the article shouldn't suggest there is such a thing. In other words, if "luxury" is a term that is merely bestowed by, for example Consumer Reports or J.D. Powers... or any other organization, without a metric or means of measuring when a car meets or doesn't meet the standard, then just leave the article like it is. 842U ( talk) 20:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
There is actually constructive work being done to improve this article.
The "stable version" might be ultra-safe, but quite a few other editors see it as unacceptable since it is completely lacking in information.
I was planning to do an overview of the North American luxury market and how it gradually evolved, obviously a European editor can do a similar thing for Europe (i.e. the problems that Lexus is facing trying to break in).
Obviously, if you keep insisting on an internationally-agreed upon metric, in effect raising the bar too high, then nothing is going to get done, and I bet that other editors will keep reverting it.
GoldDragon (
talk)
21:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Because luxury is a perceptual, conditional and subjective attribute that can and will be understood differently by different entities, there is no standard of what constitutes the luxury-ness of a vehicle. Nor has any editor thus far offered a definition of where non-luxury ends and luxury begins. Nor is it impossible that luxury does not exist as an attribute of a vehicle itself but exists simply as the perception of the consumer. (cf. Quality)
But it is ineffectual to suggest here that sources are valid references of luxury-ness because their name is recognized — noting especially that the entities in question (e.g., Consumer Reports) don't publish criteria or methodology to define the very thing in question: luxury-ness.
To improve the article, find entities that publish criteria to define the term luxury-ness when ascribed to a vehicle. In the meantime, the article is fair, concise and accurate. 842U ( talk) 19:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
A clear parallel to this article is the article on Quality), which gives a broad definition and then a list of sources with very specific criteria. The list itself confirms the variety of criteria that can be used — without "making up" the list. Some editors feel it's ok to de-stabilize the luxury-vehicle article by dumping unorganized, un-sourced, unreferenced conjecture into this article. The "10" reason that Forbes gives for buying a "luxury car" are essentially covered in the intro to the article as it currently exists.
To improve the article, find entities that publish criteria to define the term luxury-ness when ascribed to a vehicle. In the meantime, the article is fair, concise and accurate. 842U ( talk) 11:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
"Organized, sourced, and referenced" doesn't matter nearly as much as what is "organized, sourced, and referenced." Conjecture can be easily organized and sourced — as in the case of the sports car article — which is cited for inaccuracy pertaining to the very characteristics of the cars the article refers to. In other words, that article fell into the same pot hole some editors keep steering this article into. What the article needs are discreet definitions of "luxury vehicle," not inaccurate conjecture. No need to keep arguing the same thing; the article is no place for peacock terms, conjecture and original research. 842U ( talk) 20:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I'll let you take care of the discreet definitions, however this article needs a lot more than just that. And as auto guides and the motoring press are not peacock terms, conjecture and original research, then we can finally move forward. GoldDragon ( talk) 21:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
This discussion is nearly irrelevant, like arguing with a table. Sorry, not interested anymore. 842U ( talk) 19:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
There is only two editors, 842U and CZmarlin, that agree with the "stable" (if also completely devoid of content) version of the article. Surely this is not anywhere close to consensus. GoldDragon ( talk) 02:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
How is having examples NPOV ? I'm not picking borderline debatable examples here, as a BMW 5 Series is clearly a mid-level luxury car by both North American and European classifications, with regard to both size and price (excluding the BMW M5). I think that these editors are just blanket reverting and not even reading any of the changes to the article. GoldDragon ( talk) 17:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
[1] [2] GoldDragon ( talk) 23:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
This appears to be an edit war -- we can ask that the article be locked. 842U ( talk) 20:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Comment: This article is one of those few articles that I would imagine to be a complete nightmare, so I will try to be as impartial as possible. Global References should be greatly expanded as this is, quite possibly, the only non-contentious part of the article. Characteristics should be removed entirely and stay removed else the entire section will simply devolve into he-said-she-said with people using increasingly worse and worse cites as justification for including their definition. History and sales if done correctly good be quite an informative section; it should focus on general trends rather than individual cars or brands. I will also suggest that its use as a marketing term should be included; perhaps in history or it's own section, but this should focus on the history of the use of the term Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Comment from uninvolved user. This is a difficult RfC to participate in, because many questions seem to be posed at the same time. My only comment at the moment is that "Global references" is an odd title for the section. "Definitions" would make more sense, and the section would still be laid out by country or region. Could you make use of standard histories of motoring or of car manufacturing to say how the concept of "luxury vehicle" has developed over the ages? Such history books will include examples. Illustrations would be helpful in the article. Itsmejudith ( talk) 20:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Currently, the characteristics section is not a he-said-she-said, but given the potential for abuse, we'll monitor it carefully in order to control what goes in it. Rather than have editors use their own definition, they should use a recognized source such as Forbes or Consumer Guide. There is definitely lots of material on the front-engine rear-wheel drive platforms and how they are no longer used for mass market cars but still on premium cars. GoldDragon ( talk) 18:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Obviously, I would like to be as general as possible rather than specifically referred to an individual car or brand, however the sources often track particular marques rather than the overall state of German or British luxury imports. I do use more generalizations in the characteristics section, using a specific example only when required. GoldDragon ( talk) 18:52, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
References
Major sections of this article are full of peacock and weasel terms promoting brands and models. Now we have a contributor who insists on including a section describing "premium compacts". It is full of Boastful Superlatives (BS) to describe the vehicles that simply repeat the automaker's marketing departments. Furthermore, claiming automotive journalists as "reliable sources" is just rehashing the self-serving prose of automotive journalists that serve each automaker's publicity efforts. The proliferation of market segments and sub-segments using the term "luxury" is so overused that it no longer has any value. "Luxury" is now used to refer to every possible model made by every automaker. However, one of the sources in to support the "premium compact segment" ( linked here) does not even use the term "luxury" to describe these small, but very expensive for their size and class vehicles. So why include them in this article? Wikipedia guidelines do not allow advertising and promotion. Thank you, CZmarlin ( talk) 18:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Chrysler markets its 300C as a full-size vehicle, not a mid-size. It says on http://www.chrysler.com/en/2011/300/ that it is part of the "Upper Large Car Segment". Plus, the AWD 300C weighs 4513 lbs, more than the 4409 lbs of an Audi A8, which is considered a large car. Ekcrbe ( talk) 02:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Of all four-wheel-drive vehicles, the first luxury one was the Range Rover, the design that started the brand, which had an aluminium V-8 engine (with air conditioning) and interior fittings such as in a British luxury car (wood and leather elegantly applied). It also was the only car ever displayed in the Louvre because it was considered that beautiful. British people know this. Why don't they put it on the page? 4.154.251.32 ( talk) 01:58, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
volvo s40 is never meant to be a luxury car, it is considered an alternative to Toyota Camry in most markets including some 3rd world countries and who classified Hyundai Equus as a high end luxury vechile, it should be a Mid-luxury car at best after all, it's a hyundai with a generic mando suspension and until 2009 it had a front-wheel drive engines with a weak torque (not a real luxury car IMO) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedabady2005 ( talk • contribs) 11:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
The Ford Crown Victoria, Chrysler 300, Holden VF Commodore, and Hyundai Genesis. Noscamsouttherebeinglovedby2013 ( talk) 18:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
The quote by the Bentley executive shows the changing demographics of their customer base and who they are marketing to, if you think it seems promotional then you can reword it. In addition, the Maserati Ghibli deserves mention in the executive car section. Brimspark ( talk) 13:51, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
NOTE: Due to the ongoing edit war, I have protected the article. Continual reverts of each other is disruptive and was going to result in blocks likely of all parties involved. During the duration of the page protection, please resolve the dispute. --- Barek ( talk • contribs) - 16:51, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
"Chrysler went 100% FF by 1990 and GM's Cadillac and Buick brands for the US were entirely FF by 1997." - Cadillac FF by 1997? There's the Catera... Or is that not considered luxury enough? Also, suppose it is a rebadged import.. Hmm. TheSapient ( talk) 00:00, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
They ARE luxury cars. What do you mean "no"? Lincoln's MKZ starts at $37-38K. Buick's LaCrosse starts at $35K. Its Regal starts at over $30K. Destination is always included!!!! With the ultimate being Cadillac, of course. Chryslers aren't, because the 200, which competes with the Regal, costs as much as the Verano. A fully-loaded LaCrosse Premium I Group and the Regal GS AWD are legitimate BMW contenders. 166.137.191.28 ( talk) 20:53, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that some of the "makes" listed fall under the "Luxury Category." Chrysler, Buick and Volvo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.36.233 ( talk) 00:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
WHY SAAB OR VOLVO ARE NOT TO BE CONSIDERED LUXURY MAKES WHEN MOST OF THE REVENUES FROM THEIR PRODUCTS COME FROM CARS PRICED A LOT MORE THAN 29OOO US$ OR 24000 EURO(S60,S80,XC70,XC90,V70,C70 AND ALL SAABS + MOST OF S40 AND V50 CARS SOLD ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE EXCEPT FROM THE 1,6)!!!!YOU SHOULD ALSO CONSIDER THAT THE AVERAGE INCOME IN THE EU-15 IS LESS THAN THAT OF THE US.THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT A FOCUS IS A LUXURY CAR BECAUSE IN PORTUGAL THE TAXES ARE TOO HIGH or because the portuguese are poor...BUT HIGHER TAXES IN EUROPE SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT AS VEHICLES WHITH MORE POWER ARE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE SAME IN THE US.FOR EXAMPLE IN EUROPE YOU BUY A VOLVO S40 1,8 FOR 24000EUR(OR 30744 US$!!!!-KINETIC TRIM LEVEL)AND IN THE US THE SAME CAR WITH A 2,4(170PS NOT 140PS)LTR ENGINE(MOMENTUM TRIM LEVEL WHICH IS DEFINETELY MORE LUXURIOUS)CAN BE PURCHASED WITH 24000$ MSRP(18722US$)!FOR THE US IS DEFINETELY NOT A LUXURY CAR BUT FOR EUROPE IT REALLY IS CONSIDERING THE PRICE CRITERION THAT YOU SET. SO I THINK YOU SHOULD RECONSIDER THE OPINION ABOUT THE NEAR LUXURY MANUFACTURERS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEIR TOP SELLING MODELS EXCEED THE PRICE CRITERION YOU SET AND THE MAJORITY OF REVENUE COMES FROM CARS COSTING A LOT MORE THAN 29000 US $ FOR THE US MARKET. ONLY THE GERMANS ARE LUXURIOUS FIRMS?WHA TABOUT THE PAST?WAS VOLVO THE SAME AS AUDI OR SHARPLY MORE LUXURIOUS? NON SCANDINAVIAN ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΗΣ (This post was left by 87.203.216.224)
Okay, no need to capitalize your entire post. As you can see most of this article is under the heading "(American market)". Volvos and Saads are two cheap. There are several things you need to take into account:
If you would like to expand the non-US section you can but please don't convert currencies it merely gives an inaccurate depiction of pucharsing power. Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40? Regards, Signature brendel 23:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
BRENDEL,APOSTOLIS HERE
Sorry for the capitals,last time.They were annoying and confusing.
The criterion set by the wikipedia site for a luxury car is to have a PRICE ABOVE 30000 US$,ok? Luxury car makers are those manufacturers that more than 50% of their sales comes from cars that cost more than this price tag,ok?
VOLVO CARS SALES 2005
Volvo XC90 85,994 US STARTING UP 36135 US $ GERMANY 42500 Volvo V50 83,202 " " 26690 US $ 22500(1,6) Volvo S40 75,136 " " 24240 US $ 21800(1,6) Volvo V70 70,156 " " 30045 US $ 31670 Volvo S60 62,528 " " 30885 US $ 28870 Volvo XC70 35,357 " " 36420 US $ 39400 Volvo S80 27,568 " " - - Volvo C70 Classic 3,246 " - -
THE All new Volvo S80 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars for its first year with starting price of 39360 US $ or 35950 EURO in Germany.th one referred above is the old one. The all new Volvo C70 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars(20000 ordered in 3 months!) with starting price of 39090 US $ or 33300 Euro in Germany. Consider the fact that average income in EU-15 is less than that of the US and that Germany has in general the lowest car prices in Europe.Even the German GDP per capita is much lower than that of the US.The Europeans tend to work less than the Americans.Volvo S40 is the only near luxury model of VOLVO considering the fact that most of its sales come from 1.8,2.0,2.4 and 2.0 diesel engines.All the other Volvo car models are above the price criterion.Volvo S40/V50 consists only of the 35.66% of total sales... Volvo is definetely a luxury car maker Sure,it does not match the image of Audi or BMW,but is more classy than AUDI,
Sold cars
2005 2004 +/– 2004
Volvo S40 75,136 53,085 + 41,5% Volvo S60 62,528 73,121 – 14,4% Volvo S80 27,568 32,985 – 16,4% Volvo V50 83,202 47,743 + 74,0% Volvo V70 70,156 74,656 – 6,0% Volvo XC70 35,357 35,876 – 1,4% Volvo XC90 85,994 84,032 + 2,3% Volvo C70 Classic* 3,246 7,012 – 53,0% Others 760 47,714 – 98,4% Total 443,947 456,224 – 2,8%
http://www.volvocars.com/corporation/FactsandFigures/MarketsandSales/
see the prices of Volvo cars on the internet
I am very frustrated by your last comment: "Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40?"It is very unsophisticated and insulting for me!Have I told you anything like this?Volvo S40 is in a car range different than these cars as it is smaller.Why don't you refer to Mercedes C-CLASS or BMW 3 SERIES,AUDI A4?MERCEDES E-CLASS IS AT THE SAME CATEGORY AS VOLVO S80!!!We talk about the entry level models,don't we?In Europe these cars are considered luxury cars.Do not take as an example only Germany.We talk about Europe.In US luxury cars sre considered those that cost more than 30000 US $.In Germany it may be the same.In France?Italy?UK?Spain,Sweden,Belgium,Greece?All these,other than german,markets consist much more in Europe's sales.So when you talk about Europe you should talk about the whole Europe,not only Germany.You are German but the review about Europe should refer to all OECD(Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development-developed countries) European members.Finally do not consider luxury cars from their american definition.In Europe this definition for all these reasons mentioned is totally different.
BMW 525i 43500$,AUDI A6 3.2 40820$,VOLVO S80 3,2 39360$,MERCEDES E-CLASS 51325$,ACURA TL 3,2 33325$,INFINITI M 41450$,SAAB 9-5 2.3T 34820$
I think that Mercedes is in a class of its own in the US!!!However all the other models are in the same class as Volvo S80,aren't they?Saab and Acura are a little bit downmarket.These prices are in the US.So why Volvo S80 is compared with the smallest BMW sedan?In Europe the prices of Audi and Volvo are the same,the BMW and Mercedes are a bit more expensive.Mercedes E is very expensive in the US....
Europe(Belgium) prices
MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro
You can easily see that Volvo is at the same category as the others.And even better than Audi.We talk about an average European market as Belgium is.
In Greece where I live,Saab is more upmarket than Volvo.
1So let's talk about the other models
BELGIAN STARTING PRICES IN EURO
BMW X5: 47800 ,MERCEDES M:49557 ,VOLVO XC90:44590 ,AUDI Q7: 49346 ,SAAB 9-7X: 49026 ,CADILLAC SRX 46949 ,JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE: 41900 ,LAND ROVER DISCOVERY(LR3): 41194 ,LEXUS RX: 46555 , PORSCHE CAYENNE: 52151
VOLVO'S BEST SELLING MODEL(19,37% OF TOTAL VOLVO SALES) IS XC90 STARTING AT 44950 EURO
VOLVO S60: 26949 EURO ,MERCEDES C: 29986 ,BMW 3-SEDAN: 25899 ,AUDI A4 : 24299 ,SAAB 9-3: 20000, CADILLAC BLS: 27589 ,LEXUS IS : 31479 ,JAGUAR X-TYPE : 28900,ALFA ROMEO 159 : 23300, VOLVO S40: 22750
VOLVO has two models in this category: S60,a true luxury car(14.08% of Volvo sales) and S40(16.92%),Volvo's near luxury car.The best selling models are those costing a lot more:Volvo S40 1.6Diesel(24750 euro)and all the engines produced in Sweden as only 20% of factory's output are fitted with Ford's petrol engines(1.6,1.8,2.0).The others are diesels(1.6,2.0:26250E,D5:29299E) or 2.4i(26799),2.5 T5(32750).My reference is www.volvocarsgent.be
MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro,LEXUS GS 47005
VOLVO V70 :31799, MERCEDES C-CLASS BREAK: 32277 ,AUDI A4 AVANT : 25514 , BMW 3 TOURING: 28000 JAGUAR X-TYPE ESTATE : 30900 ,VOLVO V50 : 25249
VOLVO has also two estates in the same category:V70(15.8% OF VOLVO SALES)AND V50(18.74%)
Even if we exlcude s40 and v50 and provided that S80(starting at 35199 euro) and C70(starting at 34000 euro) will sell more than 100000 cars in their first year(MORE THAN 1/5th of company's sales),the sales of models that have the same price as Mercedes,Bmw,Audi etc is very big
XC90+S60+V70+XC70+S80(NEW)+C70(NEW) YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS A LUXURY CAR MAKER FOR THE EUROPEAN MARKET + near luxury S40 and V50(although their price is very close to that of Audis)
The Germans would never agree that their swedish counterparts could be luxurious.
We agree that either Volvo nor Saab and Alfa Romeo produce cars rival to more expensive Mercedes(like CLS,S,CL,SLR,R) and BMW cars(like 7,6,M series) than those mentioned above.But this is not a reason not to consider them luxury.Why then AUDI is a luxury car maker and not a Volvo?The only car it produces above Volvo is A8,but its sales are not an important part of Audi's sales.
VOLVO V70 IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN JAGUAR X ESTATE AND SOLD 70156 CARS IN 2005. THE WHOLE JAGUAR FIRM SELLS ROUGHLY 80000 CARS PER ANNUM
Volvo,Land Rover,Jaguar,Aston Martin create PAG(Premier Automotive Group), FORD'S company for European luxury brands and Volvo is part of it.
Sorry but how can I add a section?
Hello again
Just see the average car spending in Belgium,a country that has the same household income as Germany...it's much lower although Belgium is a car producing country...
The biggest price category is that of 14673-17352(19.3%) and if you make the statistics the geometry median(50%)is at this price tag... The higher 20% of car sales comes from cars that cost more than 22310 Euro. Just see it and you will realise that only Germans spend big sums of money for new cars.They spend their money to buy used cars with higher cilindrity...Just see the auto park of Belgium... [5]
Is Buick the same as Volvo?Just see the prices...You have not realised that Volvo's best selling model is Volvo XC90 wich starts from 36000$ or 45000 Euro in Europe!!!!
Sorry for the inconvenience...but Buick has only one car costing more than 30000 MSRP ,the RAINIER.Volvo in the US sell S80 with 40000$ Msrp(25000 sales expected there;1/5 of total Volvo US sales),XC90 with MORE THAN 36000$ MSRP(40000 sales in the US;1/3 of Volvo US sales),C70 costing more than 39000$(8000sales expected there),S60 costing more than 31000$,V70 with MSRP more than 30000$. What about Buick? LACROSSE(22915$),LUCERNE(262654$),RAINIER(32120$),RENDEZVOUS(25795$),TERRAZA(27295$)
Volvo has only two cars costing in the range between 25000-30000 $:S40 and V50,ALL the other range mentioned above costs a lot more... It's obvious they are not the same...
ACURA is a luxury company and not Volvo?You must be kidding...Just look at the MSRP prices:they are more than 36000$?You set as criterion:"if a car manufacturer's MSP of all vehicles sold is greater than $36,000, then it is a luxury car manufacturer"
ACURA
RSX 20325 TSX 27890 RDX 32995 TL 33325 MDX 37125 RL 49300
The KBB is not a good criterion though...It defines as luxury the mid-lexel of luxury cars and higher...Just look at the source you mentioned [6] It says:"Because the North American luxury car market encompasses a vast range of automobiles priced from under $30,000 to sky’s the limit, it’s helpful to break the segment into easily digestible chunks. Most commonly, we call those chunks entry luxury, mid-luxury, super-luxury, and ultra-luxury. Entry luxury cars usually cost between $25,000 and $40,000, and they don’t always have a luxury brand attached to them. Mid-luxury cars typically run between $40,000 and $60,000, and always carry a nameplate that resonates with image-conscious Americans. Super-luxury cars cost upwards of $60,000 but less than $100,000, and inspire envy in both friends and enemies. Ultra-luxury cars are six-figure expenses guaranteed to land the hottest date in town and the best parking spaces at the trendiest nightspots."
Volvo has not super luxury cars.But does Acura have?No.So you must change your mind and put Volvo at the same category as Acura or downgrade Acura...Just it's not fair...
Finally Volvo XC90 COSTS 45000 EURO IN EUROPE,in the US costs 36000$,so in Europe it is a very expensive car.And it was you that told me not to use money exchange to compare cars... In GREECE Volvo XC90 costs 57000Euro!The average however is that of Belgium.Just see [7]
I have just seen this:you consider Audi a near luxury car maker?Then luxury maker for you is only Maybach or Bentley...
Volvo is the part of Ford's Premium Automotive Group - the group consisting only of premium/luxury brands.
Also, In Europe Volvo is considered a luxury brand, however not as luxury as BMW or MB. Netrat ( talk) 03:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
According the Wikipedia policy, article should represent global point of view. The US-centric point of view is a common issue of many article, one of the issues that needs to be fixed. We need to support WP:NPOV, so European market is as much important as American one. So it does not matter if Volvo is not considered to be a lux brand in US. Netrat ( talk) 03:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Finally, the proper way to find out if customers are paying for the brand or not is to compare the price of a vehicle to the average price of its competitors in the same size segment with the same horsepower and the same options (like leather seats), not to compare the price to your income or the median income in your conutry. That's why exact price tags make little sense. Netrat ( talk) 03:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
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99.229.103.103 ( talk) 01:00, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The Lexus ES is based on the Toyota Avalon but this page incorrectly states that it is based on the Toyota Camry (under Entry-level luxury cars).
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With this edit, 1292simon essentially undid about a half-dozen of my edits, and removed the idea of luxury pickups entirely, despite the fact that Luxury pickup and Luxury Pick-up truck redirect to luxury vehicle. I believe that that revision should be undone. If Simon's edit stands, the article will lack any references to the Cadillac Escalade (a significant luxury SUV) or any of Detroit's luxury crossovers. Also, luxury pickups won't be covered anywhere aside of their individual models. p b p 00:38, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The background to my changes is that I am concerned the article is USA-centric, so I have tried to give it a more balanced global perspective. Cheers, 1292simon ( talk) 02:25, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 10:33, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Luxury vehicle → Luxury car – This article solely covers luxurious automobiles. The current title is not sufficiently WP:PRECISE about the subject it actually describes. A "luxury vehicle" could be a yacht or a private jet. It would not be at all unreasonable for a reader to expect this article to cover any and all modes of transport that are deemed luxurious by sources. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 03:52, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
There should be a limit to the number of images in the galleries. Three per each modern classification is enough. There are models also mentioned in the text. Unfortunately, like many things on Wikipedia, these galleries tend to grow without noticing. Turning them into picture lists of favorite brands does not provide any encyclopedic value to the article. Thanks! CZmarlin ( talk) 16:43, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
As now we have enough sources defining what "luxury car" is (from European Comission), I think it's time to restore AT LEAST SOME sections previously deleted Dino246 and 842U. Netrat ( talk) 17:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The current state of this article is an insult to anyone who knows just a little bit about cars! Your actions actually amount to vandalism!
You do seem to have a PERSONAL problem with the term "luxury", or perhaps just with the cars labeled as such.
Well, dude, there's is huge number of things on this planet whose definitions are ambiguous or not agreed upon by various individuals, but, somehow, many of those things have articles on wikipedia without being vandalised by people like you.
Your logic is unbelievable flawed! How about removing the term luxury completely from wikipedia just because you belive it's very abiguous and abstruse? According to your logic, people should be confused by any use of this term... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcos800 ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The issue of verifiability is central to Wikipedia articles. The cited articles are germain, if only because they highlight how little verifiable information they contain and how little verifiable information surrounds the use of the word "luxury." Aside from the Luxury real estate article, these are very poor articles by Wikipedia criteria: Luxury real estate: the article refers to a specifically defined and referenced term within specific geographic markets. Luxury yacht: the article contains two references and little verifiable information. Luxury resort: the article contains no references and no verifiable information. Luxury good: the article contains no references. Luxury box: the article contains no references.
Wikipedia isn't a repository for the conjecture of "people who know about cars." Articles are to be structured around reliable sources. Because there is no agreed threshold on "luxury car-ness" and because ascribing the descriptor to any product is itself an act of peacockery, it seems most appropriate to keep the article sober, referenced and free from the agrandizement the very word luxury suggests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.165.67.131 ( talk) 15:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
This article has no place in a reference work. There is not a single agreed upon definition of luxury, hence the entire article is conjectural.
I strongly suggest we start over with this article. Comments?
See Weasel Words. 842U ( talk) 23:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
A definitionally precise article would be great -- far better than reverting the article. Try to find that definition though. 842U ( talk) 00:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback on the article — your opinions are valuable here. Whatever happens, lets keep discussing this — there are no hard feelings, and maybe we can get to a place where the article really works.
In the meantime, if you read this entire discussion page, this issue has festered for a long time — ice picks aside, several folks have identified the deeply flawed nature of the article in its previous state.
We know SUV's derive from trucks, that Crossover's are built on unibody chassis, that a convetible allows open air driving — but what precisely do we know about luxury vehicles?
Granted, the current article is flawed too.
The current brief article is better than the long flawed article, because its easier to build on and revise. The sheer bulk of the last article gave credence to something for which there is no credence: that there is a definition for a luxury vehicle. 842U ( talk) 11:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
This is great — with a few of us taking care to recraft the article, perhaps we can arrive at a functional reference. 842U ( talk) 12:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Dino, I have a problem with what you added, retracted it, and hope you will come up with a "sandboxed" edition that uses a less conjectural tone and reliable sources. 842U ( talk) 15:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Dino, in ref to your lates edit:
Some (see weasel words) motor manufacturers (who?) produce only luxury vehicles (again, what is this?) and these are considered (by whom?) to be luxury brands (again, what is this?). However, most (see weasel words) motor manufacturing companies have some sort of luxury vehicle (again, what is this) or luxury vehicle brand in their range and today, the term luxury vehicle is applied to some small cars and 4x4s as well as the more traditional four door saloons and Grand Tourer sports cars that were exclusively considered (by whom) to be luxury vehicles in the past.
It's ineffective to have this conversation about luxury vehicles, when the term itself is vague. Again, we need real sources here -- otherwise the article will become a lot of conjecture again. 842U ( talk) 13:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Unless one of the people who impose the old article can come up with one (an article) without using a large ammount of weasel words, or saying 'Luxury Vehicle is a biased term' in fancy wording, I will continue to revert the artcle back to it's orginal state because, although it has faults, it is much more accurate than the poor excuse being presented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.166.67.107 ( talk) 07:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, let's try and do this, but without arbitrary, contentious and subjective examples. Dry sourced definitions, nothing more. It must be clear that there is no consensus on what a 'luxury car' is, the second we start including examples we are objectivising a subjective topic and opening the door to arguments. Is a base X3 really a luxury car? Are Aston Martins luxury cars or grand tourers? Who are we to decide..? Dino246 ( talk) 18:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Unless there is an agreed upon metric for measuring luxury-ness of a car, the article shouldn't suggest there is such a thing. In other words, if "luxury" is a term that is merely bestowed by, for example Consumer Reports or J.D. Powers... or any other organization, without a metric or means of measuring when a car meets or doesn't meet the standard, then just leave the article like it is. 842U ( talk) 20:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
There is actually constructive work being done to improve this article.
The "stable version" might be ultra-safe, but quite a few other editors see it as unacceptable since it is completely lacking in information.
I was planning to do an overview of the North American luxury market and how it gradually evolved, obviously a European editor can do a similar thing for Europe (i.e. the problems that Lexus is facing trying to break in).
Obviously, if you keep insisting on an internationally-agreed upon metric, in effect raising the bar too high, then nothing is going to get done, and I bet that other editors will keep reverting it.
GoldDragon (
talk)
21:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Because luxury is a perceptual, conditional and subjective attribute that can and will be understood differently by different entities, there is no standard of what constitutes the luxury-ness of a vehicle. Nor has any editor thus far offered a definition of where non-luxury ends and luxury begins. Nor is it impossible that luxury does not exist as an attribute of a vehicle itself but exists simply as the perception of the consumer. (cf. Quality)
But it is ineffectual to suggest here that sources are valid references of luxury-ness because their name is recognized — noting especially that the entities in question (e.g., Consumer Reports) don't publish criteria or methodology to define the very thing in question: luxury-ness.
To improve the article, find entities that publish criteria to define the term luxury-ness when ascribed to a vehicle. In the meantime, the article is fair, concise and accurate. 842U ( talk) 19:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
A clear parallel to this article is the article on Quality), which gives a broad definition and then a list of sources with very specific criteria. The list itself confirms the variety of criteria that can be used — without "making up" the list. Some editors feel it's ok to de-stabilize the luxury-vehicle article by dumping unorganized, un-sourced, unreferenced conjecture into this article. The "10" reason that Forbes gives for buying a "luxury car" are essentially covered in the intro to the article as it currently exists.
To improve the article, find entities that publish criteria to define the term luxury-ness when ascribed to a vehicle. In the meantime, the article is fair, concise and accurate. 842U ( talk) 11:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
"Organized, sourced, and referenced" doesn't matter nearly as much as what is "organized, sourced, and referenced." Conjecture can be easily organized and sourced — as in the case of the sports car article — which is cited for inaccuracy pertaining to the very characteristics of the cars the article refers to. In other words, that article fell into the same pot hole some editors keep steering this article into. What the article needs are discreet definitions of "luxury vehicle," not inaccurate conjecture. No need to keep arguing the same thing; the article is no place for peacock terms, conjecture and original research. 842U ( talk) 20:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I'll let you take care of the discreet definitions, however this article needs a lot more than just that. And as auto guides and the motoring press are not peacock terms, conjecture and original research, then we can finally move forward. GoldDragon ( talk) 21:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
This discussion is nearly irrelevant, like arguing with a table. Sorry, not interested anymore. 842U ( talk) 19:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
There is only two editors, 842U and CZmarlin, that agree with the "stable" (if also completely devoid of content) version of the article. Surely this is not anywhere close to consensus. GoldDragon ( talk) 02:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
How is having examples NPOV ? I'm not picking borderline debatable examples here, as a BMW 5 Series is clearly a mid-level luxury car by both North American and European classifications, with regard to both size and price (excluding the BMW M5). I think that these editors are just blanket reverting and not even reading any of the changes to the article. GoldDragon ( talk) 17:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
[1] [2] GoldDragon ( talk) 23:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
This appears to be an edit war -- we can ask that the article be locked. 842U ( talk) 20:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Comment: This article is one of those few articles that I would imagine to be a complete nightmare, so I will try to be as impartial as possible. Global References should be greatly expanded as this is, quite possibly, the only non-contentious part of the article. Characteristics should be removed entirely and stay removed else the entire section will simply devolve into he-said-she-said with people using increasingly worse and worse cites as justification for including their definition. History and sales if done correctly good be quite an informative section; it should focus on general trends rather than individual cars or brands. I will also suggest that its use as a marketing term should be included; perhaps in history or it's own section, but this should focus on the history of the use of the term Sanguis Sanies ( talk) 11:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Comment from uninvolved user. This is a difficult RfC to participate in, because many questions seem to be posed at the same time. My only comment at the moment is that "Global references" is an odd title for the section. "Definitions" would make more sense, and the section would still be laid out by country or region. Could you make use of standard histories of motoring or of car manufacturing to say how the concept of "luxury vehicle" has developed over the ages? Such history books will include examples. Illustrations would be helpful in the article. Itsmejudith ( talk) 20:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Currently, the characteristics section is not a he-said-she-said, but given the potential for abuse, we'll monitor it carefully in order to control what goes in it. Rather than have editors use their own definition, they should use a recognized source such as Forbes or Consumer Guide. There is definitely lots of material on the front-engine rear-wheel drive platforms and how they are no longer used for mass market cars but still on premium cars. GoldDragon ( talk) 18:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Obviously, I would like to be as general as possible rather than specifically referred to an individual car or brand, however the sources often track particular marques rather than the overall state of German or British luxury imports. I do use more generalizations in the characteristics section, using a specific example only when required. GoldDragon ( talk) 18:52, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
References
Major sections of this article are full of peacock and weasel terms promoting brands and models. Now we have a contributor who insists on including a section describing "premium compacts". It is full of Boastful Superlatives (BS) to describe the vehicles that simply repeat the automaker's marketing departments. Furthermore, claiming automotive journalists as "reliable sources" is just rehashing the self-serving prose of automotive journalists that serve each automaker's publicity efforts. The proliferation of market segments and sub-segments using the term "luxury" is so overused that it no longer has any value. "Luxury" is now used to refer to every possible model made by every automaker. However, one of the sources in to support the "premium compact segment" ( linked here) does not even use the term "luxury" to describe these small, but very expensive for their size and class vehicles. So why include them in this article? Wikipedia guidelines do not allow advertising and promotion. Thank you, CZmarlin ( talk) 18:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Chrysler markets its 300C as a full-size vehicle, not a mid-size. It says on http://www.chrysler.com/en/2011/300/ that it is part of the "Upper Large Car Segment". Plus, the AWD 300C weighs 4513 lbs, more than the 4409 lbs of an Audi A8, which is considered a large car. Ekcrbe ( talk) 02:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Of all four-wheel-drive vehicles, the first luxury one was the Range Rover, the design that started the brand, which had an aluminium V-8 engine (with air conditioning) and interior fittings such as in a British luxury car (wood and leather elegantly applied). It also was the only car ever displayed in the Louvre because it was considered that beautiful. British people know this. Why don't they put it on the page? 4.154.251.32 ( talk) 01:58, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
volvo s40 is never meant to be a luxury car, it is considered an alternative to Toyota Camry in most markets including some 3rd world countries and who classified Hyundai Equus as a high end luxury vechile, it should be a Mid-luxury car at best after all, it's a hyundai with a generic mando suspension and until 2009 it had a front-wheel drive engines with a weak torque (not a real luxury car IMO) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedabady2005 ( talk • contribs) 11:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
The Ford Crown Victoria, Chrysler 300, Holden VF Commodore, and Hyundai Genesis. Noscamsouttherebeinglovedby2013 ( talk) 18:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
The quote by the Bentley executive shows the changing demographics of their customer base and who they are marketing to, if you think it seems promotional then you can reword it. In addition, the Maserati Ghibli deserves mention in the executive car section. Brimspark ( talk) 13:51, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
NOTE: Due to the ongoing edit war, I have protected the article. Continual reverts of each other is disruptive and was going to result in blocks likely of all parties involved. During the duration of the page protection, please resolve the dispute. --- Barek ( talk • contribs) - 16:51, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
"Chrysler went 100% FF by 1990 and GM's Cadillac and Buick brands for the US were entirely FF by 1997." - Cadillac FF by 1997? There's the Catera... Or is that not considered luxury enough? Also, suppose it is a rebadged import.. Hmm. TheSapient ( talk) 00:00, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
They ARE luxury cars. What do you mean "no"? Lincoln's MKZ starts at $37-38K. Buick's LaCrosse starts at $35K. Its Regal starts at over $30K. Destination is always included!!!! With the ultimate being Cadillac, of course. Chryslers aren't, because the 200, which competes with the Regal, costs as much as the Verano. A fully-loaded LaCrosse Premium I Group and the Regal GS AWD are legitimate BMW contenders. 166.137.191.28 ( talk) 20:53, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that some of the "makes" listed fall under the "Luxury Category." Chrysler, Buick and Volvo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.36.233 ( talk) 00:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
WHY SAAB OR VOLVO ARE NOT TO BE CONSIDERED LUXURY MAKES WHEN MOST OF THE REVENUES FROM THEIR PRODUCTS COME FROM CARS PRICED A LOT MORE THAN 29OOO US$ OR 24000 EURO(S60,S80,XC70,XC90,V70,C70 AND ALL SAABS + MOST OF S40 AND V50 CARS SOLD ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE EXCEPT FROM THE 1,6)!!!!YOU SHOULD ALSO CONSIDER THAT THE AVERAGE INCOME IN THE EU-15 IS LESS THAN THAT OF THE US.THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT A FOCUS IS A LUXURY CAR BECAUSE IN PORTUGAL THE TAXES ARE TOO HIGH or because the portuguese are poor...BUT HIGHER TAXES IN EUROPE SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT AS VEHICLES WHITH MORE POWER ARE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE SAME IN THE US.FOR EXAMPLE IN EUROPE YOU BUY A VOLVO S40 1,8 FOR 24000EUR(OR 30744 US$!!!!-KINETIC TRIM LEVEL)AND IN THE US THE SAME CAR WITH A 2,4(170PS NOT 140PS)LTR ENGINE(MOMENTUM TRIM LEVEL WHICH IS DEFINETELY MORE LUXURIOUS)CAN BE PURCHASED WITH 24000$ MSRP(18722US$)!FOR THE US IS DEFINETELY NOT A LUXURY CAR BUT FOR EUROPE IT REALLY IS CONSIDERING THE PRICE CRITERION THAT YOU SET. SO I THINK YOU SHOULD RECONSIDER THE OPINION ABOUT THE NEAR LUXURY MANUFACTURERS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEIR TOP SELLING MODELS EXCEED THE PRICE CRITERION YOU SET AND THE MAJORITY OF REVENUE COMES FROM CARS COSTING A LOT MORE THAN 29000 US $ FOR THE US MARKET. ONLY THE GERMANS ARE LUXURIOUS FIRMS?WHA TABOUT THE PAST?WAS VOLVO THE SAME AS AUDI OR SHARPLY MORE LUXURIOUS? NON SCANDINAVIAN ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΗΣ (This post was left by 87.203.216.224)
Okay, no need to capitalize your entire post. As you can see most of this article is under the heading "(American market)". Volvos and Saads are two cheap. There are several things you need to take into account:
If you would like to expand the non-US section you can but please don't convert currencies it merely gives an inaccurate depiction of pucharsing power. Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40? Regards, Signature brendel 23:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
BRENDEL,APOSTOLIS HERE
Sorry for the capitals,last time.They were annoying and confusing.
The criterion set by the wikipedia site for a luxury car is to have a PRICE ABOVE 30000 US$,ok? Luxury car makers are those manufacturers that more than 50% of their sales comes from cars that cost more than this price tag,ok?
VOLVO CARS SALES 2005
Volvo XC90 85,994 US STARTING UP 36135 US $ GERMANY 42500 Volvo V50 83,202 " " 26690 US $ 22500(1,6) Volvo S40 75,136 " " 24240 US $ 21800(1,6) Volvo V70 70,156 " " 30045 US $ 31670 Volvo S60 62,528 " " 30885 US $ 28870 Volvo XC70 35,357 " " 36420 US $ 39400 Volvo S80 27,568 " " - - Volvo C70 Classic 3,246 " - -
THE All new Volvo S80 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars for its first year with starting price of 39360 US $ or 35950 EURO in Germany.th one referred above is the old one. The all new Volvo C70 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars(20000 ordered in 3 months!) with starting price of 39090 US $ or 33300 Euro in Germany. Consider the fact that average income in EU-15 is less than that of the US and that Germany has in general the lowest car prices in Europe.Even the German GDP per capita is much lower than that of the US.The Europeans tend to work less than the Americans.Volvo S40 is the only near luxury model of VOLVO considering the fact that most of its sales come from 1.8,2.0,2.4 and 2.0 diesel engines.All the other Volvo car models are above the price criterion.Volvo S40/V50 consists only of the 35.66% of total sales... Volvo is definetely a luxury car maker Sure,it does not match the image of Audi or BMW,but is more classy than AUDI,
Sold cars
2005 2004 +/– 2004
Volvo S40 75,136 53,085 + 41,5% Volvo S60 62,528 73,121 – 14,4% Volvo S80 27,568 32,985 – 16,4% Volvo V50 83,202 47,743 + 74,0% Volvo V70 70,156 74,656 – 6,0% Volvo XC70 35,357 35,876 – 1,4% Volvo XC90 85,994 84,032 + 2,3% Volvo C70 Classic* 3,246 7,012 – 53,0% Others 760 47,714 – 98,4% Total 443,947 456,224 – 2,8%
http://www.volvocars.com/corporation/FactsandFigures/MarketsandSales/
see the prices of Volvo cars on the internet
I am very frustrated by your last comment: "Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40?"It is very unsophisticated and insulting for me!Have I told you anything like this?Volvo S40 is in a car range different than these cars as it is smaller.Why don't you refer to Mercedes C-CLASS or BMW 3 SERIES,AUDI A4?MERCEDES E-CLASS IS AT THE SAME CATEGORY AS VOLVO S80!!!We talk about the entry level models,don't we?In Europe these cars are considered luxury cars.Do not take as an example only Germany.We talk about Europe.In US luxury cars sre considered those that cost more than 30000 US $.In Germany it may be the same.In France?Italy?UK?Spain,Sweden,Belgium,Greece?All these,other than german,markets consist much more in Europe's sales.So when you talk about Europe you should talk about the whole Europe,not only Germany.You are German but the review about Europe should refer to all OECD(Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development-developed countries) European members.Finally do not consider luxury cars from their american definition.In Europe this definition for all these reasons mentioned is totally different.
BMW 525i 43500$,AUDI A6 3.2 40820$,VOLVO S80 3,2 39360$,MERCEDES E-CLASS 51325$,ACURA TL 3,2 33325$,INFINITI M 41450$,SAAB 9-5 2.3T 34820$
I think that Mercedes is in a class of its own in the US!!!However all the other models are in the same class as Volvo S80,aren't they?Saab and Acura are a little bit downmarket.These prices are in the US.So why Volvo S80 is compared with the smallest BMW sedan?In Europe the prices of Audi and Volvo are the same,the BMW and Mercedes are a bit more expensive.Mercedes E is very expensive in the US....
Europe(Belgium) prices
MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro
You can easily see that Volvo is at the same category as the others.And even better than Audi.We talk about an average European market as Belgium is.
In Greece where I live,Saab is more upmarket than Volvo.
1So let's talk about the other models
BELGIAN STARTING PRICES IN EURO
BMW X5: 47800 ,MERCEDES M:49557 ,VOLVO XC90:44590 ,AUDI Q7: 49346 ,SAAB 9-7X: 49026 ,CADILLAC SRX 46949 ,JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE: 41900 ,LAND ROVER DISCOVERY(LR3): 41194 ,LEXUS RX: 46555 , PORSCHE CAYENNE: 52151
VOLVO'S BEST SELLING MODEL(19,37% OF TOTAL VOLVO SALES) IS XC90 STARTING AT 44950 EURO
VOLVO S60: 26949 EURO ,MERCEDES C: 29986 ,BMW 3-SEDAN: 25899 ,AUDI A4 : 24299 ,SAAB 9-3: 20000, CADILLAC BLS: 27589 ,LEXUS IS : 31479 ,JAGUAR X-TYPE : 28900,ALFA ROMEO 159 : 23300, VOLVO S40: 22750
VOLVO has two models in this category: S60,a true luxury car(14.08% of Volvo sales) and S40(16.92%),Volvo's near luxury car.The best selling models are those costing a lot more:Volvo S40 1.6Diesel(24750 euro)and all the engines produced in Sweden as only 20% of factory's output are fitted with Ford's petrol engines(1.6,1.8,2.0).The others are diesels(1.6,2.0:26250E,D5:29299E) or 2.4i(26799),2.5 T5(32750).My reference is www.volvocarsgent.be
MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro,LEXUS GS 47005
VOLVO V70 :31799, MERCEDES C-CLASS BREAK: 32277 ,AUDI A4 AVANT : 25514 , BMW 3 TOURING: 28000 JAGUAR X-TYPE ESTATE : 30900 ,VOLVO V50 : 25249
VOLVO has also two estates in the same category:V70(15.8% OF VOLVO SALES)AND V50(18.74%)
Even if we exlcude s40 and v50 and provided that S80(starting at 35199 euro) and C70(starting at 34000 euro) will sell more than 100000 cars in their first year(MORE THAN 1/5th of company's sales),the sales of models that have the same price as Mercedes,Bmw,Audi etc is very big
XC90+S60+V70+XC70+S80(NEW)+C70(NEW) YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS A LUXURY CAR MAKER FOR THE EUROPEAN MARKET + near luxury S40 and V50(although their price is very close to that of Audis)
The Germans would never agree that their swedish counterparts could be luxurious.
We agree that either Volvo nor Saab and Alfa Romeo produce cars rival to more expensive Mercedes(like CLS,S,CL,SLR,R) and BMW cars(like 7,6,M series) than those mentioned above.But this is not a reason not to consider them luxury.Why then AUDI is a luxury car maker and not a Volvo?The only car it produces above Volvo is A8,but its sales are not an important part of Audi's sales.
VOLVO V70 IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN JAGUAR X ESTATE AND SOLD 70156 CARS IN 2005. THE WHOLE JAGUAR FIRM SELLS ROUGHLY 80000 CARS PER ANNUM
Volvo,Land Rover,Jaguar,Aston Martin create PAG(Premier Automotive Group), FORD'S company for European luxury brands and Volvo is part of it.
Sorry but how can I add a section?
Hello again
Just see the average car spending in Belgium,a country that has the same household income as Germany...it's much lower although Belgium is a car producing country...
The biggest price category is that of 14673-17352(19.3%) and if you make the statistics the geometry median(50%)is at this price tag... The higher 20% of car sales comes from cars that cost more than 22310 Euro. Just see it and you will realise that only Germans spend big sums of money for new cars.They spend their money to buy used cars with higher cilindrity...Just see the auto park of Belgium... [5]
Is Buick the same as Volvo?Just see the prices...You have not realised that Volvo's best selling model is Volvo XC90 wich starts from 36000$ or 45000 Euro in Europe!!!!
Sorry for the inconvenience...but Buick has only one car costing more than 30000 MSRP ,the RAINIER.Volvo in the US sell S80 with 40000$ Msrp(25000 sales expected there;1/5 of total Volvo US sales),XC90 with MORE THAN 36000$ MSRP(40000 sales in the US;1/3 of Volvo US sales),C70 costing more than 39000$(8000sales expected there),S60 costing more than 31000$,V70 with MSRP more than 30000$. What about Buick? LACROSSE(22915$),LUCERNE(262654$),RAINIER(32120$),RENDEZVOUS(25795$),TERRAZA(27295$)
Volvo has only two cars costing in the range between 25000-30000 $:S40 and V50,ALL the other range mentioned above costs a lot more... It's obvious they are not the same...
ACURA is a luxury company and not Volvo?You must be kidding...Just look at the MSRP prices:they are more than 36000$?You set as criterion:"if a car manufacturer's MSP of all vehicles sold is greater than $36,000, then it is a luxury car manufacturer"
ACURA
RSX 20325 TSX 27890 RDX 32995 TL 33325 MDX 37125 RL 49300
The KBB is not a good criterion though...It defines as luxury the mid-lexel of luxury cars and higher...Just look at the source you mentioned [6] It says:"Because the North American luxury car market encompasses a vast range of automobiles priced from under $30,000 to sky’s the limit, it’s helpful to break the segment into easily digestible chunks. Most commonly, we call those chunks entry luxury, mid-luxury, super-luxury, and ultra-luxury. Entry luxury cars usually cost between $25,000 and $40,000, and they don’t always have a luxury brand attached to them. Mid-luxury cars typically run between $40,000 and $60,000, and always carry a nameplate that resonates with image-conscious Americans. Super-luxury cars cost upwards of $60,000 but less than $100,000, and inspire envy in both friends and enemies. Ultra-luxury cars are six-figure expenses guaranteed to land the hottest date in town and the best parking spaces at the trendiest nightspots."
Volvo has not super luxury cars.But does Acura have?No.So you must change your mind and put Volvo at the same category as Acura or downgrade Acura...Just it's not fair...
Finally Volvo XC90 COSTS 45000 EURO IN EUROPE,in the US costs 36000$,so in Europe it is a very expensive car.And it was you that told me not to use money exchange to compare cars... In GREECE Volvo XC90 costs 57000Euro!The average however is that of Belgium.Just see [7]
I have just seen this:you consider Audi a near luxury car maker?Then luxury maker for you is only Maybach or Bentley...
Volvo is the part of Ford's Premium Automotive Group - the group consisting only of premium/luxury brands.
Also, In Europe Volvo is considered a luxury brand, however not as luxury as BMW or MB. Netrat ( talk) 03:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
According the Wikipedia policy, article should represent global point of view. The US-centric point of view is a common issue of many article, one of the issues that needs to be fixed. We need to support WP:NPOV, so European market is as much important as American one. So it does not matter if Volvo is not considered to be a lux brand in US. Netrat ( talk) 03:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Finally, the proper way to find out if customers are paying for the brand or not is to compare the price of a vehicle to the average price of its competitors in the same size segment with the same horsepower and the same options (like leather seats), not to compare the price to your income or the median income in your conutry. That's why exact price tags make little sense. Netrat ( talk) 03:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
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99.229.103.103 ( talk) 01:00, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The Lexus ES is based on the Toyota Avalon but this page incorrectly states that it is based on the Toyota Camry (under Entry-level luxury cars).
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 18:40, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
With this edit, 1292simon essentially undid about a half-dozen of my edits, and removed the idea of luxury pickups entirely, despite the fact that Luxury pickup and Luxury Pick-up truck redirect to luxury vehicle. I believe that that revision should be undone. If Simon's edit stands, the article will lack any references to the Cadillac Escalade (a significant luxury SUV) or any of Detroit's luxury crossovers. Also, luxury pickups won't be covered anywhere aside of their individual models. p b p 00:38, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The background to my changes is that I am concerned the article is USA-centric, so I have tried to give it a more balanced global perspective. Cheers, 1292simon ( talk) 02:25, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 10:33, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Luxury vehicle → Luxury car – This article solely covers luxurious automobiles. The current title is not sufficiently WP:PRECISE about the subject it actually describes. A "luxury vehicle" could be a yacht or a private jet. It would not be at all unreasonable for a reader to expect this article to cover any and all modes of transport that are deemed luxurious by sources. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 03:52, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
There should be a limit to the number of images in the galleries. Three per each modern classification is enough. There are models also mentioned in the text. Unfortunately, like many things on Wikipedia, these galleries tend to grow without noticing. Turning them into picture lists of favorite brands does not provide any encyclopedic value to the article. Thanks! CZmarlin ( talk) 16:43, 9 July 2021 (UTC)