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Reviewer: Johannes Schade ( talk · contribs) 09:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Good day
Schwede66. We just met over another issue and I thought you were a person with whom I can talk, who is able to take criticism, and from whom I can learn. I therefore propose to review your GA nomination “
Lucien Brouha”. Admittedly, I am only an apprentice-reviewer, whereas you are a widely respected experienced wikipedian and administrator. I must also warn you that my English is 2nd language and that I am no subject-matter expert. I will propose corrections and suggest optional improvements. The corrections rely on the GA criteria (WP:GACR). Some are tentative. Please tell me when you disagree with a correction. I am probably wrong. You can ignore my suggestions. They have no effect on the article's promotion. Should I lack in respect, do not hesitate to complain (see WP:CIVIL).
I will start with the preliminaries and then go through the article's sections, sometimes returning to previous sections when needed. With best regards,
Johannes Schade (
talk)
09:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
General remark: This article has two infoboxes. I have never seen this done before. This seems highly unusual, but I do not seem to find a rule anywhere that forbids it. I wonder what made you go for this. I also wonder what your wikifriend has to say about this. I feel that it would be better to merge these infoboxes using the parameters:
|module = {{Infobox scientist
|embed = yes
The precise manner how to do this best will probably take quite a lot of trial and error. This article is an example Ian Watkins (Lostprophets singer).
name
parameter in an infobox is to match the article title, and birth_name
gets used when that is different to the article title.
Schwede
66
00:09, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Hello, both; thanks Schwede66 for thinking of me to assist with this. Johannes Schade, please feel free to disagree with any of my suggestions or make further suggestions about the prose (also, feel free to move my comments to another section below if you would prefer not to have them cluttering up your review; I wasn't sure of the best way to include them on this talk page!). I think overall it's a really great article and well-written, I just had a few minor tweaks/comments.
Schwede66, could you please send me a copy of reference [2], Vangrunderbeek, Hans; Delheye, Pascal (1 June 2013)? There are a couple of minor points I would like to review (noted below).
In addition to the suggested changes I've made in the article (which are hopefully self-explanatory, but please let me know if not!), I had the following other comments/questions (all relatively minor):
I really enjoyed reading the article and had never previously heard of rabbit pregnancy tests; whoa. Cheers, Chocmilk03 ( talk) 07:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
General remark: The infobox has too much detail. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says "to summarize key facts", also "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose". I feel that quite a few of the fields you filled in, should be omitted and all those you gave but left blank. Some inexperienced editors take empty fields in the infobox as invitations to fill them in. The documentation for the infobox "person" says "Only the most pertinent information should be included. Please remove unused parameters, and refrain from inserting dubious trivia in an attempt to fill all parameters".
birth_name
parameter is for is wrong. This isn't about a name change; this is about the birth name being different from the common name. Maybe it's an American thing where it's very common for people to be known by their full name. Either way, the full name is Lucien Antoine Maurice Brouha and the subject isn't known by that, but there may still be scientific literature that either uses the full name or at least abbreviations of those middle names. Therefore, it's useful to include birth_name
.
MOS:INFOBOX isn't too helpful. The documentation for
Template:Infobox person does not appear to give the restriction you seek but states what I already had to say about the subject. Lastly, I've looked at the four FA-class medical bios that we have:name
parameter in violation what
Template:Infobox person requires (oh dear; I note the FA was passed in 2012)birth_name
parameter the way I understand it should be used.
Schwede
66
09:23, 5 December 2022 (UTC)Please remember to remove the fields left blank. Thanks for having called in User:Chocmilk03. She did excellent work. Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 14:42, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
... exercise physiologist ...– Please link to Exercise physiology.
... repechage ...– Wikipedia has an article on this. I had never heard of this. Please link.
... (HST) ..– GACR 1a "concise"; Is the acronym HST really useful here? I would probably drop it as it is not used in the lead. However, keep it if people tend to call this HST rather than Harvard Step Test.
... Army..– Why should Army take a leading uppercase A? Johannes Schade ( talk) 21:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
... finished ..– I think "ended" is better in this case. See e.g. the discussion on the Cambridge Dictionary site.
... a large industrial employer in Canada ..– GACR 1a "concise"; perhaps better "the private sector"?
... occupational ergonomics ...– Please consider dropping the adjective. Link to Ergonomics.
... in 1899 ...– The main text should normally be more precise and not less precise than the corresponding summaries in the lead and the infobox. MOS:LEADNOTUNIQUE states that "information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article" but allows some exceptions among which the birth date, but curiously not the death date. MOS:BIRTHDATE states that the full date (dmy) should appear in the lead unless it is given in the main text. Personnally I prefer to give years only in the lead and full dates in the main text. You do it the other way round. Many biographies givefull dates in all three locations. What do you feel is best? Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 21:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
... couriered dispatches for the Belgian Army ...– The Belgian Army was far away on the Yser. I think Vandergrunderbeek has this not entirely right. It seems more likely that Lucien worked for La Dame Blanche, the major Belgian underground intelligence network, which was very busy in Liège. La Dame Blanche passed its intelligence to the British Secret Service in Rotterdam.
... imprisoned for his activities ...– Rather these.
... prisoner of war ...– He was not precisely a prisoner of war, even if Vangrunderbeek calls him so, as he was not a soldier. Since no source give more details about his detention it perhaps best not to give it a name and just to say "after his release".
... Société Royale ...– I do not see why the Union nautique de Liège (UNL) should be prefixed "Société royale". That might be a special honour it received but it is not relevant here.
... Liège ...– Unlink.
... Amsterdam, the Netherlands, ...– I think Amsterdam is well known enough and it is not necessary to add that it is in the Netherlands.
... Barcelona, Spain, ...– I think Barcelona is well known enough and it is not necessary to add that it is in Spain.
... repechage ...– Link. The other link was in the lead.
... Zurich, Switzerland, ...– I think Zurich is well known enough and it is not necessary to add that it is in Switzerland.
... his father had been a professor ...– His father would be appointed professor only in 1925. See his father's biographie in Demoulin. Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 21:44, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
... his sister Adèle ...– I do not find Adèle mentioned in Liber Memorialis, Vol II, pp 589–595. Again, this is too tiresome I would like to have a single page to browse through or a pair.
In 1931 he worked ...– Citation VanGrunderbeek: 11 pages to read to verify the facts stated in this sentence. Besides the access restriction is stated in Cite Book using the parameter |url-access=registration or |url-access=subscription.
... in which order the improvements were made ...– It is not clear to me which improvements are meant.
... rabbits (named after Maurice Friedman) ...– were the rabboits named after Maurice Friedman? You will have to find some way how to introduce Maurice Friedman earlier.
... lecturer-in-charge ...– A chargé de cours is simply a "lecturer" (see https://www.deepl.com/translator#fr/en/charg%C3%A9-de-cours) Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for all the hard work on the citation style. I think that was a major step forwards. Thanks also for the cosmetics.
... (AZ test) ...– As written I find it is difficult for the reader to understand why it is called AZ test. Consider moving the parenthesis forward to after "their test", or find some other better solution.
Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 20:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
... Kaiser Wilhelm Society ...– What bothers me here is that a society seems to be transformed into an Institute. In reality the Kaiser Wilhelm Society became the Max-Planck Society and the name of the institute also changed. Would you not agree?
His initial stay ...– More simply "His first stay ...".
In 1935, he had four months ...–> "In 1935, he stayed four months"
... arrived in Boston ...– This surprises Boston has not beem mentioned before. Was the HFL in Boston? If so, mention this earlier.
These requirements were that the test must:– Sounds clumsy. Perhaps "According to them the test must:"
Brouha Symposium– Who organised this symposium?
University of Montreal– Was there not also something with the Laval University at Quebec City?
Greeting, Johannes Schade ( talk) 22:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Brouha's younger brother was Paul Brouha ...– I would have written "Brouha's younger brother Paul (1010—1943) was a resistance ..." I wonder whether the 1st paragraph (about his brother Paul) should not be moved to somewhere nearer in chronology. Perhaps to where you mention the German invasion of Belgium. Think about it.
I am very impressed with your hard work. Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 20:14, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
|url-access parameter
doesn't work the way the citation templates are currently set up. It expects a |url parameter
but that's not useful when you use ISSN, DOI, PMID, or S2CID, as those create weblinks already. And most of the time, it's not useful to include newspapers in shortened footnotes. The exception might be when it's all recent coverage with authors (at least mostly) known and page numbers given. We neither have authors nor page numbers in this case.
Schwede
66
23:03, 6 February 2023 (UTC)GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Article (
|
visual edit |
history) ·
Article talk (
|
history) ·
Watch
Reviewer: Johannes Schade ( talk · contribs) 09:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Good day
Schwede66. We just met over another issue and I thought you were a person with whom I can talk, who is able to take criticism, and from whom I can learn. I therefore propose to review your GA nomination “
Lucien Brouha”. Admittedly, I am only an apprentice-reviewer, whereas you are a widely respected experienced wikipedian and administrator. I must also warn you that my English is 2nd language and that I am no subject-matter expert. I will propose corrections and suggest optional improvements. The corrections rely on the GA criteria (WP:GACR). Some are tentative. Please tell me when you disagree with a correction. I am probably wrong. You can ignore my suggestions. They have no effect on the article's promotion. Should I lack in respect, do not hesitate to complain (see WP:CIVIL).
I will start with the preliminaries and then go through the article's sections, sometimes returning to previous sections when needed. With best regards,
Johannes Schade (
talk)
09:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
General remark: This article has two infoboxes. I have never seen this done before. This seems highly unusual, but I do not seem to find a rule anywhere that forbids it. I wonder what made you go for this. I also wonder what your wikifriend has to say about this. I feel that it would be better to merge these infoboxes using the parameters:
|module = {{Infobox scientist
|embed = yes
The precise manner how to do this best will probably take quite a lot of trial and error. This article is an example Ian Watkins (Lostprophets singer).
name
parameter in an infobox is to match the article title, and birth_name
gets used when that is different to the article title.
Schwede
66
00:09, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Hello, both; thanks Schwede66 for thinking of me to assist with this. Johannes Schade, please feel free to disagree with any of my suggestions or make further suggestions about the prose (also, feel free to move my comments to another section below if you would prefer not to have them cluttering up your review; I wasn't sure of the best way to include them on this talk page!). I think overall it's a really great article and well-written, I just had a few minor tweaks/comments.
Schwede66, could you please send me a copy of reference [2], Vangrunderbeek, Hans; Delheye, Pascal (1 June 2013)? There are a couple of minor points I would like to review (noted below).
In addition to the suggested changes I've made in the article (which are hopefully self-explanatory, but please let me know if not!), I had the following other comments/questions (all relatively minor):
I really enjoyed reading the article and had never previously heard of rabbit pregnancy tests; whoa. Cheers, Chocmilk03 ( talk) 07:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
General remark: The infobox has too much detail. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says "to summarize key facts", also "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose". I feel that quite a few of the fields you filled in, should be omitted and all those you gave but left blank. Some inexperienced editors take empty fields in the infobox as invitations to fill them in. The documentation for the infobox "person" says "Only the most pertinent information should be included. Please remove unused parameters, and refrain from inserting dubious trivia in an attempt to fill all parameters".
birth_name
parameter is for is wrong. This isn't about a name change; this is about the birth name being different from the common name. Maybe it's an American thing where it's very common for people to be known by their full name. Either way, the full name is Lucien Antoine Maurice Brouha and the subject isn't known by that, but there may still be scientific literature that either uses the full name or at least abbreviations of those middle names. Therefore, it's useful to include birth_name
.
MOS:INFOBOX isn't too helpful. The documentation for
Template:Infobox person does not appear to give the restriction you seek but states what I already had to say about the subject. Lastly, I've looked at the four FA-class medical bios that we have:name
parameter in violation what
Template:Infobox person requires (oh dear; I note the FA was passed in 2012)birth_name
parameter the way I understand it should be used.
Schwede
66
09:23, 5 December 2022 (UTC)Please remember to remove the fields left blank. Thanks for having called in User:Chocmilk03. She did excellent work. Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 14:42, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
... exercise physiologist ...– Please link to Exercise physiology.
... repechage ...– Wikipedia has an article on this. I had never heard of this. Please link.
... (HST) ..– GACR 1a "concise"; Is the acronym HST really useful here? I would probably drop it as it is not used in the lead. However, keep it if people tend to call this HST rather than Harvard Step Test.
... Army..– Why should Army take a leading uppercase A? Johannes Schade ( talk) 21:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
... finished ..– I think "ended" is better in this case. See e.g. the discussion on the Cambridge Dictionary site.
... a large industrial employer in Canada ..– GACR 1a "concise"; perhaps better "the private sector"?
... occupational ergonomics ...– Please consider dropping the adjective. Link to Ergonomics.
... in 1899 ...– The main text should normally be more precise and not less precise than the corresponding summaries in the lead and the infobox. MOS:LEADNOTUNIQUE states that "information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article" but allows some exceptions among which the birth date, but curiously not the death date. MOS:BIRTHDATE states that the full date (dmy) should appear in the lead unless it is given in the main text. Personnally I prefer to give years only in the lead and full dates in the main text. You do it the other way round. Many biographies givefull dates in all three locations. What do you feel is best? Thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 21:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
... couriered dispatches for the Belgian Army ...– The Belgian Army was far away on the Yser. I think Vandergrunderbeek has this not entirely right. It seems more likely that Lucien worked for La Dame Blanche, the major Belgian underground intelligence network, which was very busy in Liège. La Dame Blanche passed its intelligence to the British Secret Service in Rotterdam.
... imprisoned for his activities ...– Rather these.
... prisoner of war ...– He was not precisely a prisoner of war, even if Vangrunderbeek calls him so, as he was not a soldier. Since no source give more details about his detention it perhaps best not to give it a name and just to say "after his release".
... Société Royale ...– I do not see why the Union nautique de Liège (UNL) should be prefixed "Société royale". That might be a special honour it received but it is not relevant here.
... Liège ...– Unlink.
... Amsterdam, the Netherlands, ...– I think Amsterdam is well known enough and it is not necessary to add that it is in the Netherlands.
... Barcelona, Spain, ...– I think Barcelona is well known enough and it is not necessary to add that it is in Spain.
... repechage ...– Link. The other link was in the lead.
... Zurich, Switzerland, ...– I think Zurich is well known enough and it is not necessary to add that it is in Switzerland.
... his father had been a professor ...– His father would be appointed professor only in 1925. See his father's biographie in Demoulin. Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 21:44, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
... his sister Adèle ...– I do not find Adèle mentioned in Liber Memorialis, Vol II, pp 589–595. Again, this is too tiresome I would like to have a single page to browse through or a pair.
In 1931 he worked ...– Citation VanGrunderbeek: 11 pages to read to verify the facts stated in this sentence. Besides the access restriction is stated in Cite Book using the parameter |url-access=registration or |url-access=subscription.
... in which order the improvements were made ...– It is not clear to me which improvements are meant.
... rabbits (named after Maurice Friedman) ...– were the rabboits named after Maurice Friedman? You will have to find some way how to introduce Maurice Friedman earlier.
... lecturer-in-charge ...– A chargé de cours is simply a "lecturer" (see https://www.deepl.com/translator#fr/en/charg%C3%A9-de-cours) Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for all the hard work on the citation style. I think that was a major step forwards. Thanks also for the cosmetics.
... (AZ test) ...– As written I find it is difficult for the reader to understand why it is called AZ test. Consider moving the parenthesis forward to after "their test", or find some other better solution.
Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 20:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
... Kaiser Wilhelm Society ...– What bothers me here is that a society seems to be transformed into an Institute. In reality the Kaiser Wilhelm Society became the Max-Planck Society and the name of the institute also changed. Would you not agree?
His initial stay ...– More simply "His first stay ...".
In 1935, he had four months ...–> "In 1935, he stayed four months"
... arrived in Boston ...– This surprises Boston has not beem mentioned before. Was the HFL in Boston? If so, mention this earlier.
These requirements were that the test must:– Sounds clumsy. Perhaps "According to them the test must:"
Brouha Symposium– Who organised this symposium?
University of Montreal– Was there not also something with the Laval University at Quebec City?
Greeting, Johannes Schade ( talk) 22:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Brouha's younger brother was Paul Brouha ...– I would have written "Brouha's younger brother Paul (1010—1943) was a resistance ..." I wonder whether the 1st paragraph (about his brother Paul) should not be moved to somewhere nearer in chronology. Perhaps to where you mention the German invasion of Belgium. Think about it.
I am very impressed with your hard work. Best regards, Johannes Schade ( talk) 20:14, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
|url-access parameter
doesn't work the way the citation templates are currently set up. It expects a |url parameter
but that's not useful when you use ISSN, DOI, PMID, or S2CID, as those create weblinks already. And most of the time, it's not useful to include newspapers in shortened footnotes. The exception might be when it's all recent coverage with authors (at least mostly) known and page numbers given. We neither have authors nor page numbers in this case.
Schwede
66
23:03, 6 February 2023 (UTC)