![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Need to create a Horton Family page and then remove all of Lucas' relatives, which I agree should be removed after a family page is created. 17:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
This material should be consolidated into Days of our Lives.
While the soap opera Days of our Lives is clearly noteworthy enough to be in an encyclopedia, the characters from the story are not noteworthy enough to warrant encyclopedia entries.
In addition, the material about Lucas Roberts does not cite any references and seems to rely upon the editors' memories.-- Mumia-w-18 01:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow! Can anyone make a suggestion about anything without you having a snide remark? You do not own this,or any other day,s of our lives article. Do you realize that? -- 99.177.250.140 ( talk) 02:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Should Lucas' named be changed? On Friday, he refered to himself as "Lucas Horton". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrm087 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Should it now be Lucas Horton? Do WP:COMMONNAME still apply? What do other editors think? Rm994 ( talk) 20:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Isn't Lucas in Hong Kong shouldn't his last appearance be displayed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.156.5.105 ( talk) 15:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Plot summary is way out of date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.193.59 ( talk) 20:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 10:57, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Lucas Horton → Lucas Roberts –
The result of the move request was: Procedural closure. The consensus already reached. George Ho ( talk) 02:15, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Lucas Horton →
Lucas Roberts – Per the same reasons above. Per
WP:COMMONNAME and the sources found, Roberts is still is
WP:COMMONNAME and should not have been moved for no reason.
71.233.227.127 (
talk) 13:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
71.233.227.127 (
talk) 13:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
BDD and BD2412, this article was very recently moved, but, per the past move discussions above and what WP:Requested moves states about moves that are likely to be contested or controversial, shouldn't this article go through the WP:Requested moves process first...again? Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:57, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
No. It says be bold and move the page. Not every little thing needs to be a long drawn out boring talk. It's been 4 years since the last drawn out boring talk. The character's name is Lucas Horton and it's not getting changed back to Roberts. Cebr1979 ( talk) 18:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Reverted Schmitz123 ( talk · contribs)'s move of the page; see here. I'm going to get this article WP:Move protected now. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Noting here that the page was move-protected. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 08:09, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
On November 21 2016, Oshwah move-protected this article because of the repeated undiscussed moves that go against the previous consensus. See above. Recently, King Gemini, who has been warned on his talk before about moving this article, moved it again anyway. I reverted the move. Oshwah, because of the constant moving of the article, will you indefinitely move-protect this article? Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:05, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
As an active editor at Will Horton I've been very amused to see this article bouncing back and forth and back and forth between Lucas Roberts and Lucas Horton! It's funny if you're not involved! And I totally see both sides! For the first 14 years the character was Lucas Roberts, and there is *huge* amounts of story and history attached to that name. But now the official name *is* Lucas Horton, and it has been his name on the show for *nine* years now. There's such an easy solution to this - call the article Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts). Surely that would be end-of-story and make everyone happy! It makes sense to me! Plus, I'd be very happy to see Will Horton moved to Will Horton (Will Roberts), and if we moved both together then we'd have accordance between the two, which, as they're father and son, and their names were changed together, it would make sense that they match, and it would be very cool. I do think the name Will Roberts needs greater prominence at Will's article, because it *was* the character's name - and credit name - for the bulk of his onscreen "life", and this proposal makes sense for that article too. And it totally makes sense that the Will and the Lucas article both have the same form, and this proposal can make this happen! Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 18:32, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Hardly the first person to suggest this sort of compromise, but it's not how things are done here ever since we moved away from football (soccer). Jenks24 ( talk) 12:56, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Lucas Roberts →
Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) – This is a good solution to the move war that has happened here, where the article location has alternated between
Lucas Roberts and
Lucas Horton. The current name of
Lucas Roberts is no longer justifiable - the character name has been Lucas Horton for nine years now, and "Days of Our Lives" "Lucas Horton" get 11,500 google results - more than "Days of Our Lives" "Lucas Roberts" which gets 8640. Nevertheless the original name of Lucas Roberts remains very important (as evidenced by the number of results it gets), and its inclusion in the article name makes sense and is helpful to the reader. The character was originated as Lucas Roberts, and had that name for 14 years, and major narrative history happened under that name. Moreover, Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) will be in concordance with the article for the character's son
Will Horton (Will Roberts) whose name was changed in the show at the same time. Horton should come first as it is current, and has been for nine years, and the character's daughter is called
Allie Horton. The indefensibility of the current position of
Lucas Roberts is demonstrated by the article being called
Lucas Roberts, but opening Lucas Horton ... and the Infobox name also being Lucas Horton. There is also an article for the supercouple
Lucas Roberts and Sami Brady, and the name for that article makes sense as the bulk of that relationship happened in the time of Lucas Roberts (and they were married as "Roberts"). Therefore, putting both names in the article name - Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) - allows this article to match with both the articles for the character's children *and* the article for the supercouple pairing.
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 15:29, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Not to challenge the consensus of rejecting this change because the form of it is considered inappropriate, but I want to underline that the intention of this proposal was made as an act of goodwill as a solution to an unsatisfactory situation which I hoped would satisfy both sides, as well as being (what I believed) a good name for the article. It was made in good faith and with the best of intentions. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 12:07, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
As my compromise suggestion of Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) has been rejected as improper, then I re-iterate that there is no consensus for Lucas Roberts, and the facts favor Lucas Horton.
livelikemusic - the results that "Lucas Roberts" and "Lucas Horton" get without "Days of Our Lives" are irrelevant. Any relevant article will also include "Days of Our Lives".
For all the web today on google:
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" : 11,900
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" : 8,620
For books today:
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" : 95
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" : 98
It's important to realize, that many sources which actually name the character as "Lucas Horton" will also include the former name, so one should expect an *irrelevant* over-reporting of "Lucas Roberts". I have stated above the many reason why I think Lucas Horton now has the priority, and I think the value of matching with Will Horton and Allie Horton, which does not seem to have been considered before, should now be considered an important factor. Therefore I vote most definitely for Lucas Horton, with a lead like Lucas Horton (first known as Lucas Roberts) is a fictional character ...
Whatever is decided, the status quo of Lucas Roberts with a lead of Lucas Horton ... and an infobox name of Lucas Horton is not okay. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 08:50, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
As someone who knows nothing about the show let alone the character, I suggest adding a section to the article that clearly explains the story about the two names. The origin of each name, when and why the switch was made, what "he" uses now, whether he's dropped the original name entirely or it still gets used, etc. That said, let's also remember that the whole point of WP:COMMONNAME is to put articles at titles most likely to be sought. If the character is using X today and hasn't used Y in years, then searches today are much more likely to be for X than Y, regardless of what the Google hits show. -- В²C ☎ 19:33, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Ferret's move protection recently expired. Per above, if this article is moved to "Lucas Horton" again without WP:Consensus, it will be moved back to "Lucas Roberts," and I will seek to get it move-protected again. As far as I'm concerned, it should be indefinitely move-protected because of the undiscussed moving of the article and repeated moving of it against consensus. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 09:58, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 22 May 2017. The result of the move review was see MR discussion page. |
The result of the move request was: No consensus Page moved - on the basis of a review request, I've realized that the support side had slightly better arguments to support the move. The oppose was primary based on view counts and IMDB usage. These arguments are not helpful in move requests. The move was supported by good policy based arguments. (
non-admin closure) -
Yashovardhan (
talk) 16:39, 21 May 2017 (UTC)(updated:
Yashovardhan (
talk) 05:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC))
Lucas Roberts → Lucas Horton – The character name has been Lucas Horton for NINE YEARS now! Lucas Horton is the show's name for the character, and is what is used on the show's own website. Lucas Horton is also now the more prevalent name on the web. From google today:
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 19,600
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 232
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 10,800
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 211
The difference is even more markedly in favor of Horton when you leave out sources which have both names.
"Lucas Horton" -"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 16,000
"Lucas Horton" -"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 216
"Lucas Roberts" -"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 7160
"Lucas Roberts" -"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 188
There is no contest - Lucas Horton wins!
It's also total nonsense to have him at Lucas Roberts whilst his children are at
Will Horton and
Allie Horton. In the show, Lucas changed his and his son's name to Horton AT THE SAME TIME - this was in January 2008 I believe October 2007
[1]
[2] - and Will's article (originally at Will Roberts) was moved to
Will Horton back in 2010. Lucas's article should be moved too, so that they are in accordance. And Allie Horton has always been Allie Horton because Horton *is* her father's name! Also, the character was always conceived as a Horton, with the story of him finding out the identity of his real father kicking off on the character's entrance to the show. The indefensibility of the current position of
Lucas Roberts is demonstrated by the article being called
Lucas Roberts, but opening Lucas Horton ... and the Infobox name also being Lucas Horton. This also demonstrates that there is no consensus for Roberts, despite one person's (hah!) insistence that there is! But that's immaterial. The evidence above says Horton Horton Horton. Case closed! (Of course Lucas Roberts will always be very important to this subject, as it is the original role-name, and this is why it shall continue to have prominence in the article. But today, this encyclopedia article belongs at Lucas Horton, with Lucas Roberts as the redirect)
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 21:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
The only reason ever given when people revert moves of this article to Lucas Horton is that it is not the most common name. But it is! Lucas Horton *is* the most common name, and assertions to the contrary spring from people either not understanding how to use google to get the relevant statistics, and/or not appreciating that the stats now favor Horton. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 12:44, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Roberts is a *much* more common surname than Horton. Google finds 467 million articles with an occurrence of "Roberts", and just 60 million articles with an occurrence of "Horton". That makes the Roberts surname almost eight times as common as Horton! This is why we must use quote marks to get our stats. We must search on "Lucas Horton" and "Lucas Roberts" and "Days of Our Lives" in quotes (i.e. an exact phrase search, to only find articles with those exact phrases). Searches without quote marks are absolutely invalid and have no bearing at all on this debate. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 18:43, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Just pointing out how much the google stats have changed since February (see up page) when this was last discussed. They have shifted markedly in favor of Horton. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 13:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
References:
"Lucas legally changed his last name from Roberts to Horton in fall of 2007 to distance himself from his mother, Kate."
[1]
"Changed his last name from Roberts to Horton October 29 2007"
[2]
http://www.nbc.com/days-of-our-lives/credits/character/lucas-horton
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 15:06, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
References
What a waste of my time it has been to put in a careful and extensive argument for moving this to Lucas Horton, when opposers insist on using non-phrase searches to determine the notability of phrases, and the closer seems to think non-phrase searches have value too! It's ridiculous!
Here is what wp policy currently says on the matter: From WP:SET#Notability:
For goodness sake "Roberts" surname is almost eight times as common as "Horton" so of course non-phrase searches are going to produce masses of results for "Roberts"
This is a ridiculous bad decision, which has done nothing but waste people's time.
@
Yashovardhan Dhanania:@
Born2Cycle:
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 23:07, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Google all-countries results today for:
"Madonna of the Rocks": 214,000
"Virgin of the Rocks": 3060,000
Hence article is at
Virgin of the Rocks, redirect at
Madonna of the Rocks
The fact that non-phrase searches bring up more for unquoted Madonna of the Rocks is irrelevant:
Madonna of the Rocks: 7360,000
Virgin of the Rocks: 5920,000
... because non-phrase searches report hits if Madonna and Rocks are not together in the phrase "Madonna of the Rocks", and, after all, Madonna rocks!
This is the very article given as an example in
WP:SET#Notability, which is given as guideline of use for search engine searches to measure notability.
Hence, with today's all-countries, all-times, all-results from google:
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives": 10,700
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives": 20,200
gives Lucas Horton as the predominant name. Hence the evidence from google is that
Lucas Horton is the correct location for this article.
If you're in a different location to me your results will likely differ a bit (due to google mirror sites not being in-sync) and the results change with time too - but they're going to be in the same ball-park.
If you don't use quotes you are pulling up articles with the words scattered about and unconnected with each other. Don't be confused by the fact that google will bring up results where they are together first, the hits score will report all articles whether they are together or not - which is why such searches cannot be used to measure notability of article names comprising more than one word. Non-phrase searches will skew towards Roberts, because in the real world Roberts is a much more prevalent name than Horton, plus on the show there is another character - Kate Roberts - who is likely to be co-mentioned in Days of Our Lives articles with Lucas (she's his mother), plus his old surname could be mentioned. Which way they skew it does not really matter - the fact is non-phrase searches will skew, because they measure the world-wide frequency of unconnected words, and so they cannot be used to measure the notability of phrases.
It's very simple really. If you want to measure the notability of a phrase (ie. a multiple-word name) with a search engine, an exact-phrase search is essential to do so. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 19:26, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
The casting section seems way over-large to me. There's been only one actor playing Lucas, but the casting section is bigger than the casting sections for characters who have had multiple actors! Lucas's casting section is almost twice as big as Will's - and seven actors have played Will! Bottom line is the article is about the character Lucas Horton and *not* about Bryan Datillo, let alone the ins and outs of his career. I don't like removing well-sourced content, nevertheless this section is inappropriately large and detailed, and more-to-the-point, not pertinent to the article. What's more - how about we give Bryan, who's a great guy - a break, and not have a big quote box right up front talking about a not-so-great moment in his career?
As it would be considered major change to cut this section down, I'm raising the matter here prior to edit. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 12:57, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Need to create a Horton Family page and then remove all of Lucas' relatives, which I agree should be removed after a family page is created. 17:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
This material should be consolidated into Days of our Lives.
While the soap opera Days of our Lives is clearly noteworthy enough to be in an encyclopedia, the characters from the story are not noteworthy enough to warrant encyclopedia entries.
In addition, the material about Lucas Roberts does not cite any references and seems to rely upon the editors' memories.-- Mumia-w-18 01:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow! Can anyone make a suggestion about anything without you having a snide remark? You do not own this,or any other day,s of our lives article. Do you realize that? -- 99.177.250.140 ( talk) 02:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Should Lucas' named be changed? On Friday, he refered to himself as "Lucas Horton". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrm087 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Should it now be Lucas Horton? Do WP:COMMONNAME still apply? What do other editors think? Rm994 ( talk) 20:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Isn't Lucas in Hong Kong shouldn't his last appearance be displayed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.156.5.105 ( talk) 15:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Plot summary is way out of date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.193.59 ( talk) 20:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 10:57, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Lucas Horton → Lucas Roberts –
The result of the move request was: Procedural closure. The consensus already reached. George Ho ( talk) 02:15, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Lucas Horton →
Lucas Roberts – Per the same reasons above. Per
WP:COMMONNAME and the sources found, Roberts is still is
WP:COMMONNAME and should not have been moved for no reason.
71.233.227.127 (
talk) 13:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
71.233.227.127 (
talk) 13:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
BDD and BD2412, this article was very recently moved, but, per the past move discussions above and what WP:Requested moves states about moves that are likely to be contested or controversial, shouldn't this article go through the WP:Requested moves process first...again? Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:57, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
No. It says be bold and move the page. Not every little thing needs to be a long drawn out boring talk. It's been 4 years since the last drawn out boring talk. The character's name is Lucas Horton and it's not getting changed back to Roberts. Cebr1979 ( talk) 18:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Reverted Schmitz123 ( talk · contribs)'s move of the page; see here. I'm going to get this article WP:Move protected now. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Noting here that the page was move-protected. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 08:09, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
On November 21 2016, Oshwah move-protected this article because of the repeated undiscussed moves that go against the previous consensus. See above. Recently, King Gemini, who has been warned on his talk before about moving this article, moved it again anyway. I reverted the move. Oshwah, because of the constant moving of the article, will you indefinitely move-protect this article? Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 02:05, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
As an active editor at Will Horton I've been very amused to see this article bouncing back and forth and back and forth between Lucas Roberts and Lucas Horton! It's funny if you're not involved! And I totally see both sides! For the first 14 years the character was Lucas Roberts, and there is *huge* amounts of story and history attached to that name. But now the official name *is* Lucas Horton, and it has been his name on the show for *nine* years now. There's such an easy solution to this - call the article Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts). Surely that would be end-of-story and make everyone happy! It makes sense to me! Plus, I'd be very happy to see Will Horton moved to Will Horton (Will Roberts), and if we moved both together then we'd have accordance between the two, which, as they're father and son, and their names were changed together, it would make sense that they match, and it would be very cool. I do think the name Will Roberts needs greater prominence at Will's article, because it *was* the character's name - and credit name - for the bulk of his onscreen "life", and this proposal makes sense for that article too. And it totally makes sense that the Will and the Lucas article both have the same form, and this proposal can make this happen! Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 18:32, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Hardly the first person to suggest this sort of compromise, but it's not how things are done here ever since we moved away from football (soccer). Jenks24 ( talk) 12:56, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Lucas Roberts →
Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) – This is a good solution to the move war that has happened here, where the article location has alternated between
Lucas Roberts and
Lucas Horton. The current name of
Lucas Roberts is no longer justifiable - the character name has been Lucas Horton for nine years now, and "Days of Our Lives" "Lucas Horton" get 11,500 google results - more than "Days of Our Lives" "Lucas Roberts" which gets 8640. Nevertheless the original name of Lucas Roberts remains very important (as evidenced by the number of results it gets), and its inclusion in the article name makes sense and is helpful to the reader. The character was originated as Lucas Roberts, and had that name for 14 years, and major narrative history happened under that name. Moreover, Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) will be in concordance with the article for the character's son
Will Horton (Will Roberts) whose name was changed in the show at the same time. Horton should come first as it is current, and has been for nine years, and the character's daughter is called
Allie Horton. The indefensibility of the current position of
Lucas Roberts is demonstrated by the article being called
Lucas Roberts, but opening Lucas Horton ... and the Infobox name also being Lucas Horton. There is also an article for the supercouple
Lucas Roberts and Sami Brady, and the name for that article makes sense as the bulk of that relationship happened in the time of Lucas Roberts (and they were married as "Roberts"). Therefore, putting both names in the article name - Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) - allows this article to match with both the articles for the character's children *and* the article for the supercouple pairing.
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 15:29, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Not to challenge the consensus of rejecting this change because the form of it is considered inappropriate, but I want to underline that the intention of this proposal was made as an act of goodwill as a solution to an unsatisfactory situation which I hoped would satisfy both sides, as well as being (what I believed) a good name for the article. It was made in good faith and with the best of intentions. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 12:07, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
As my compromise suggestion of Lucas Horton (Lucas Roberts) has been rejected as improper, then I re-iterate that there is no consensus for Lucas Roberts, and the facts favor Lucas Horton.
livelikemusic - the results that "Lucas Roberts" and "Lucas Horton" get without "Days of Our Lives" are irrelevant. Any relevant article will also include "Days of Our Lives".
For all the web today on google:
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" : 11,900
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" : 8,620
For books today:
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" : 95
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" : 98
It's important to realize, that many sources which actually name the character as "Lucas Horton" will also include the former name, so one should expect an *irrelevant* over-reporting of "Lucas Roberts". I have stated above the many reason why I think Lucas Horton now has the priority, and I think the value of matching with Will Horton and Allie Horton, which does not seem to have been considered before, should now be considered an important factor. Therefore I vote most definitely for Lucas Horton, with a lead like Lucas Horton (first known as Lucas Roberts) is a fictional character ...
Whatever is decided, the status quo of Lucas Roberts with a lead of Lucas Horton ... and an infobox name of Lucas Horton is not okay. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 08:50, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
As someone who knows nothing about the show let alone the character, I suggest adding a section to the article that clearly explains the story about the two names. The origin of each name, when and why the switch was made, what "he" uses now, whether he's dropped the original name entirely or it still gets used, etc. That said, let's also remember that the whole point of WP:COMMONNAME is to put articles at titles most likely to be sought. If the character is using X today and hasn't used Y in years, then searches today are much more likely to be for X than Y, regardless of what the Google hits show. -- В²C ☎ 19:33, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Ferret's move protection recently expired. Per above, if this article is moved to "Lucas Horton" again without WP:Consensus, it will be moved back to "Lucas Roberts," and I will seek to get it move-protected again. As far as I'm concerned, it should be indefinitely move-protected because of the undiscussed moving of the article and repeated moving of it against consensus. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 09:58, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 22 May 2017. The result of the move review was see MR discussion page. |
The result of the move request was: No consensus Page moved - on the basis of a review request, I've realized that the support side had slightly better arguments to support the move. The oppose was primary based on view counts and IMDB usage. These arguments are not helpful in move requests. The move was supported by good policy based arguments. (
non-admin closure) -
Yashovardhan (
talk) 16:39, 21 May 2017 (UTC)(updated:
Yashovardhan (
talk) 05:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC))
Lucas Roberts → Lucas Horton – The character name has been Lucas Horton for NINE YEARS now! Lucas Horton is the show's name for the character, and is what is used on the show's own website. Lucas Horton is also now the more prevalent name on the web. From google today:
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 19,600
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 232
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 10,800
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 211
The difference is even more markedly in favor of Horton when you leave out sources which have both names.
"Lucas Horton" -"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 16,000
"Lucas Horton" -"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 216
"Lucas Roberts" -"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" web results: 7160
"Lucas Roberts" -"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives" book results: 188
There is no contest - Lucas Horton wins!
It's also total nonsense to have him at Lucas Roberts whilst his children are at
Will Horton and
Allie Horton. In the show, Lucas changed his and his son's name to Horton AT THE SAME TIME - this was in January 2008 I believe October 2007
[1]
[2] - and Will's article (originally at Will Roberts) was moved to
Will Horton back in 2010. Lucas's article should be moved too, so that they are in accordance. And Allie Horton has always been Allie Horton because Horton *is* her father's name! Also, the character was always conceived as a Horton, with the story of him finding out the identity of his real father kicking off on the character's entrance to the show. The indefensibility of the current position of
Lucas Roberts is demonstrated by the article being called
Lucas Roberts, but opening Lucas Horton ... and the Infobox name also being Lucas Horton. This also demonstrates that there is no consensus for Roberts, despite one person's (hah!) insistence that there is! But that's immaterial. The evidence above says Horton Horton Horton. Case closed! (Of course Lucas Roberts will always be very important to this subject, as it is the original role-name, and this is why it shall continue to have prominence in the article. But today, this encyclopedia article belongs at Lucas Horton, with Lucas Roberts as the redirect)
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 21:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
The only reason ever given when people revert moves of this article to Lucas Horton is that it is not the most common name. But it is! Lucas Horton *is* the most common name, and assertions to the contrary spring from people either not understanding how to use google to get the relevant statistics, and/or not appreciating that the stats now favor Horton. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 12:44, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Roberts is a *much* more common surname than Horton. Google finds 467 million articles with an occurrence of "Roberts", and just 60 million articles with an occurrence of "Horton". That makes the Roberts surname almost eight times as common as Horton! This is why we must use quote marks to get our stats. We must search on "Lucas Horton" and "Lucas Roberts" and "Days of Our Lives" in quotes (i.e. an exact phrase search, to only find articles with those exact phrases). Searches without quote marks are absolutely invalid and have no bearing at all on this debate. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 18:43, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Just pointing out how much the google stats have changed since February (see up page) when this was last discussed. They have shifted markedly in favor of Horton. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 13:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
References:
"Lucas legally changed his last name from Roberts to Horton in fall of 2007 to distance himself from his mother, Kate."
[1]
"Changed his last name from Roberts to Horton October 29 2007"
[2]
http://www.nbc.com/days-of-our-lives/credits/character/lucas-horton
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 15:06, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
References
What a waste of my time it has been to put in a careful and extensive argument for moving this to Lucas Horton, when opposers insist on using non-phrase searches to determine the notability of phrases, and the closer seems to think non-phrase searches have value too! It's ridiculous!
Here is what wp policy currently says on the matter: From WP:SET#Notability:
For goodness sake "Roberts" surname is almost eight times as common as "Horton" so of course non-phrase searches are going to produce masses of results for "Roberts"
This is a ridiculous bad decision, which has done nothing but waste people's time.
@
Yashovardhan Dhanania:@
Born2Cycle:
Aliveness Cascade (
talk) 23:07, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Google all-countries results today for:
"Madonna of the Rocks": 214,000
"Virgin of the Rocks": 3060,000
Hence article is at
Virgin of the Rocks, redirect at
Madonna of the Rocks
The fact that non-phrase searches bring up more for unquoted Madonna of the Rocks is irrelevant:
Madonna of the Rocks: 7360,000
Virgin of the Rocks: 5920,000
... because non-phrase searches report hits if Madonna and Rocks are not together in the phrase "Madonna of the Rocks", and, after all, Madonna rocks!
This is the very article given as an example in
WP:SET#Notability, which is given as guideline of use for search engine searches to measure notability.
Hence, with today's all-countries, all-times, all-results from google:
"Lucas Roberts" "Days of Our Lives": 10,700
"Lucas Horton" "Days of Our Lives": 20,200
gives Lucas Horton as the predominant name. Hence the evidence from google is that
Lucas Horton is the correct location for this article.
If you're in a different location to me your results will likely differ a bit (due to google mirror sites not being in-sync) and the results change with time too - but they're going to be in the same ball-park.
If you don't use quotes you are pulling up articles with the words scattered about and unconnected with each other. Don't be confused by the fact that google will bring up results where they are together first, the hits score will report all articles whether they are together or not - which is why such searches cannot be used to measure notability of article names comprising more than one word. Non-phrase searches will skew towards Roberts, because in the real world Roberts is a much more prevalent name than Horton, plus on the show there is another character - Kate Roberts - who is likely to be co-mentioned in Days of Our Lives articles with Lucas (she's his mother), plus his old surname could be mentioned. Which way they skew it does not really matter - the fact is non-phrase searches will skew, because they measure the world-wide frequency of unconnected words, and so they cannot be used to measure the notability of phrases.
It's very simple really. If you want to measure the notability of a phrase (ie. a multiple-word name) with a search engine, an exact-phrase search is essential to do so. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 19:26, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
The casting section seems way over-large to me. There's been only one actor playing Lucas, but the casting section is bigger than the casting sections for characters who have had multiple actors! Lucas's casting section is almost twice as big as Will's - and seven actors have played Will! Bottom line is the article is about the character Lucas Horton and *not* about Bryan Datillo, let alone the ins and outs of his career. I don't like removing well-sourced content, nevertheless this section is inappropriately large and detailed, and more-to-the-point, not pertinent to the article. What's more - how about we give Bryan, who's a great guy - a break, and not have a big quote box right up front talking about a not-so-great moment in his career?
As it would be considered major change to cut this section down, I'm raising the matter here prior to edit. Aliveness Cascade ( talk) 12:57, 22 May 2017 (UTC)