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From the paragraph Formation and equipment: The troops carried Thompson submachine guns and other standard British infantry weapons. First of all, the Thompson is american, not british. Second, why would soldiers from New Zealand, under british command, carry american weapons? Are there any references backing this claim?
Lstor ( talk) 21:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Insert "issued" between British and infantry and you might understand Blackshod ( talk) 21:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The british often used american made weapons during WW2 and the americans sometimes used british made weapons. Since shipments of weapons were often distrubtied to british and american troops because when they got shipments of weapons and ammo they were distrupted to american and british troops. Nhog 5/2/12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhog ( talk • contribs) 17:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Also men in both sides used wepones made by the enemy most often because they ran out of ammo there gun was jammed or it just was a better gun for that situation. Also wepones on both sides were given out to their allies. Besides the Thompson was one of the most commenly used guns it was more or less what the AK47 is today. Nhog ( talk) 18:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Some one added "being later reformed as the Territorial Army 63 (SAS) Signals Squadron" to the paragraph saying the LRDG was disbanded after the war. Does anyone have a refernece on this as it is the first I've heard of it and I can't find any other mentions online? Cjrother 17:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
A very nice start, and a good length overall. But each individual section is quite short; I wonder if there's anything to be done about this? LordAmeth 10:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Could do with a bit more attention to the actual and verified facts. The patrol organisation section confuses two different types and there are very many other bits which grate. I'm not sure if this is because of the sources cited or because the drafters just don't understand their topic. 81.19.57.130 17:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
According to his official web site (www.stevenpressfield.com), Steven Pressfield's next work will be on a unit of the LRDG. Steven Pressfield is well known for his fictionalized military histories, the most popular of which is "Gates of Fire" which describes the Spartan defense at the Battle of Thermopylae as the Persian army invaded ancient Greek territory. As a fan of both Rat Patrol and Pressfield's works, I look forward to his account of some aspect of the LRDG. 72.83.150.246 03:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added a bibliography section; one of the most important authors of recent times specialising in the LRDG is New Zealander Brendan O'Carroll http://mcwarr.orcon.net.nz/genealogy/leslie/kiwi.html http://www.ngaiopress.com/br_home.htm http://mcwarr.orcon.net.nz/genealogy/leslie/brigands.html Minorhistorian ( talk) 00:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This section just peters out--we get the attackers as far as a grove of trees and issuing assignments, and then the article lurches into a new topic without ever resolving what happened during the attack, how the attackers returned to base, or what were the attack's consequences. As one who was simply reading the article to learn about a subject that was new to me, I am utterly unqualified to address this issue, but someone who knows something about the LRDG should probably do so. Drhoehl ( talk) 00:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Jim Sweeny has removed entire sections of this article, which ARE REFERENCED, without consultation: not appreciated mate! Minorhistorian ( talk) 10:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
This article is about the LRDG and not the chevy truck or list of standard British Army weapons. LInks should be used for those articles and this article should concentrate only on the LRDG. -- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 11:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
The Chicago style of formatting for the bibliography is well recognised, it provides good, accurate information to pinpoint publications and there was no good reason to completely overturn it; as it is I reluctantly spent a great deal of time adding/correcting information on publishers etc to ensure the accuracy of the information. Also note: the book originally used for reference 38 was from the Public Record Office; the information on the publisher, ISBN etc was taken directly from the title page of the book and NOT from a website (now in "external links") so, unless there is a really good reason to alter it, please don't. Also note Lulu.com has been blacklisted as a Spam address by Wikipedia, so using that link, instead of the publisher itself is unwise. Unless JS or anyone else has a very good reason why the format HAS to be the less succinct "cite book" template kindly leave well enough alone or take it up with an admin. BTW the ISBN number has to be the ISBN-10 not the ISBN-13 if it is to function as a link. Minorhistorian ( talk) 18:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I have submitted the article for a peer review, here is the link Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Long Range Desert Group any editors welcome to contribute. -- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 22:40, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
If the majority used the Lee Enfield No. I Mk III rifles, it clear that some used other types. So its better just to claim they used Lee-Enfield rifles. Unless we can prove they only exclusively used the No.1 Mk III. The British Army at the time were issued the Rifle, No. 4 Mk I. The Colonial armies tended to keep the older version.-- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 11:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
One: The Royal Signals site does not discuss the equipment used by the LRDG, and does not discuss its use by the LRDG - it is a summary of the factory specifications as used by tanks using whip aerials,(tell me how many times have you seen a photo of a British tank, using a No. 11 W/T with a rod aerial?). The LRDG, with the assistance of dry desert atmosphere and expert signalsmen, were able to far outreach the official specs with either of the 1 m or 2m rod aerials.
Two: O'Carroll has researched the LRDG for many years, has interveiwed many veterans and knows far more about their equipment, methods and personnel than Jim Sweeney, Molinari or the Royal Signals website - the material is properly sourced and researched by an expert (O'Carroll) so please leave as is and please don't denigrate without actually reading the book cited.
Three: I thought this article was under peer review, so are the continuing stream of modifications absolutely needed? Why not wait for more comment? Minorhistorian ( talk) 01:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
== Wireless ranges ==
Using High frequency rod antennas have a limited range and its now where near the hundreds its to do with the signals being absorbed into the earth by attenuation. Greater distances are used by dipole antennas that bounce radio waves off the ionosphere which can travel around the world. To claim that the LRDG managed to transmit hundreds of miles with a rod antenna is not possible. Even today's modern radio equipment only has the range to transmit in HF with a rod antenna of 50 to 60 miles. This is extended by putting the antenna on top of a mast modern British Army ones are 10 and 20 meters tall but this still limits the range due to attenuation. Ita also effected by the curvature of the Earth. Not being a Radio expert I have set up and used HF radios in the Middle East and communicated back to the UK so I do have some knowledge of the limitations of rod and dipole antennas. The operators of this equipment were from the Royal Signals it would also seem that if in 1940 they had managed to transmit radio signals over hundreds of miles, they would still be doing so today. -- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 10:42, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
The LRDG used Morse code with the No. 11 set and were able to transmit over distances of hundreds of miles with a Wyndom dipole antenna system slung between two wooden 17 feet (5.2 m) tall poles.
or
The LRDG used Morse code with the No. 11 and with a Wyndom dipole antenna system slung between two wooden 17 feet (5.2 m) tall poles were able to transmit and receive radio messages over great distance's.
-- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 13:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
High Frequency (3 to 30 MHz) radio signals can propagate to a distant receiver figure 2.1, via the: Ground wave: near the ground for short distances, about 100 km over land and 300 km over sea.
The hop length is the ground distance covered by a radio signal after it has been refracted once from the ionosphere and returned to Earth, figure 2.3. The upper limit of the hop length is set by the height of the ionosphere and the curvature of the Earth. For E and F region heights of 100 km and 300 km, the maximum hop lengths with an elevation angle of 4 degrees, are 1800 km and 3200 km, respectively. Distances greater than these will require more than one hop. For example, a distance of 6100 km would require a minimum of 4 hops by the E region and 2 hops via the F region with such an elevation angle. More hops may be required with larger antenna elevation angles.
So, coming back to the article I once again found myself having to defend almost every single edit I was making, and begrudging every minute I had to waste trying to explain why it is important to stick to at least some of the information that was and is still useful to readers who are not familiar with the LRDG, or don't have acess to the cited books. It still irks me that I have wasted so much time over the last couple of weeks having to almost plead with one editor to at least make an effort to use accurate information on details such as weaponry and equipment, instead of the more generalised information he was wanting to include. Minorhistorian ( talk) 03:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I have just read an excellent academic treament of British Special Forces in the Desert War and believe this page could benefit from a citation/reference. It is:
Hargreaves, Andrew L., ‘The Advent, Evolution and Value of British Specialist Formations in the Desert War, 1940-43’, in Global War Studies, Vol. 7, No.2, (2010), pp.7-62
From what I understand Dr. Hargreaves wrote a PhD on WWII Special Forces, but am not sure if he has written any books.
This could be useful to other pages dealing with similar units.
Best,
David Trill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.43.118.20 ( talk) 07:52, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
A good book is Killing Rommal if you need a genral idea of how the LRDG operated.It is historical fiction. Nhog ( talk) 18:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Elements of the Sudan Defence Force were involved in the LRDG because of their knowledge of Arabic to be able to communicate with the Arab and Berber tribesmen. Their involvement was post 1941 after Orde Wingate relieved of his duties and the Gideon Force was disbanded. Pop goes the we ( talk) 04:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)<ref>Army War Records 1941-1944</ref>
There is some controversy over the inclusion of films in this article, justified by a low opinion of a website source as "not RS", although there is no indication as to why.
No problem - I'm just kicking myself that I'd completely forgotten about the doco Lost in Libya! ◆Min✪rhist✪rian◆ MTalk 08:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
The spelling in numerous places is "Wyndom". Maybe that was the trademark name of an antenna as marketed by a company and is what is intended. If not, the spelling should be changed to "Windom" which is the name for the type of antenna. Descriptions of the Windom antenna can be found in, for example, amateur radio literature. Akld guy ( talk) 09:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
I have removed this part out of the lead. In fact, Rommel was referring to the SAS, not to the LRDG. See for example: Eamon Gearon, William Seymour], Amanda Ferguson. The Banner talk 13:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
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Why does the article now claim that the LRDG uses PIATs - when the PIAT didn't enter service until Sicily?
Also the claims for sticky bombs and Lewes bombs sound much more like Stirling's SAS than the LRDG. Andy Dingley ( talk) 02:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
In the section titled "History", the claim "The daytime temperatures could reach 60 °C (140 °F)" seems unlikely, as the highest recorded surface temperature on earth is only 56.7 °C (Formerly 57.8 °C) according to this page: Highest_temperature_recorded_on_Earth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.166.81 ( talk) 20:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to know why my addition of a comic book series (by a famous author!) about the LRDG was reverted and thus removed from the "Popular culture" section... Comic books about a military unit are the perfect example of a popular culture depiction of said military unit! The removal is particularly ridiculous when «two of the entries in that "popular culture" section are about historical documentaries. So, comic books are not popular culture but historical documentaries are?! Carry on... Gazilion ( talk) 14:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Long Range Desert Group article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Long Range Desert Group has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
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From the paragraph Formation and equipment: The troops carried Thompson submachine guns and other standard British infantry weapons. First of all, the Thompson is american, not british. Second, why would soldiers from New Zealand, under british command, carry american weapons? Are there any references backing this claim?
Lstor ( talk) 21:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Insert "issued" between British and infantry and you might understand Blackshod ( talk) 21:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The british often used american made weapons during WW2 and the americans sometimes used british made weapons. Since shipments of weapons were often distrubtied to british and american troops because when they got shipments of weapons and ammo they were distrupted to american and british troops. Nhog 5/2/12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhog ( talk • contribs) 17:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Also men in both sides used wepones made by the enemy most often because they ran out of ammo there gun was jammed or it just was a better gun for that situation. Also wepones on both sides were given out to their allies. Besides the Thompson was one of the most commenly used guns it was more or less what the AK47 is today. Nhog ( talk) 18:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Some one added "being later reformed as the Territorial Army 63 (SAS) Signals Squadron" to the paragraph saying the LRDG was disbanded after the war. Does anyone have a refernece on this as it is the first I've heard of it and I can't find any other mentions online? Cjrother 17:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
A very nice start, and a good length overall. But each individual section is quite short; I wonder if there's anything to be done about this? LordAmeth 10:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Could do with a bit more attention to the actual and verified facts. The patrol organisation section confuses two different types and there are very many other bits which grate. I'm not sure if this is because of the sources cited or because the drafters just don't understand their topic. 81.19.57.130 17:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
According to his official web site (www.stevenpressfield.com), Steven Pressfield's next work will be on a unit of the LRDG. Steven Pressfield is well known for his fictionalized military histories, the most popular of which is "Gates of Fire" which describes the Spartan defense at the Battle of Thermopylae as the Persian army invaded ancient Greek territory. As a fan of both Rat Patrol and Pressfield's works, I look forward to his account of some aspect of the LRDG. 72.83.150.246 03:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added a bibliography section; one of the most important authors of recent times specialising in the LRDG is New Zealander Brendan O'Carroll http://mcwarr.orcon.net.nz/genealogy/leslie/kiwi.html http://www.ngaiopress.com/br_home.htm http://mcwarr.orcon.net.nz/genealogy/leslie/brigands.html Minorhistorian ( talk) 00:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This section just peters out--we get the attackers as far as a grove of trees and issuing assignments, and then the article lurches into a new topic without ever resolving what happened during the attack, how the attackers returned to base, or what were the attack's consequences. As one who was simply reading the article to learn about a subject that was new to me, I am utterly unqualified to address this issue, but someone who knows something about the LRDG should probably do so. Drhoehl ( talk) 00:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Jim Sweeny has removed entire sections of this article, which ARE REFERENCED, without consultation: not appreciated mate! Minorhistorian ( talk) 10:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
This article is about the LRDG and not the chevy truck or list of standard British Army weapons. LInks should be used for those articles and this article should concentrate only on the LRDG. -- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 11:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
The Chicago style of formatting for the bibliography is well recognised, it provides good, accurate information to pinpoint publications and there was no good reason to completely overturn it; as it is I reluctantly spent a great deal of time adding/correcting information on publishers etc to ensure the accuracy of the information. Also note: the book originally used for reference 38 was from the Public Record Office; the information on the publisher, ISBN etc was taken directly from the title page of the book and NOT from a website (now in "external links") so, unless there is a really good reason to alter it, please don't. Also note Lulu.com has been blacklisted as a Spam address by Wikipedia, so using that link, instead of the publisher itself is unwise. Unless JS or anyone else has a very good reason why the format HAS to be the less succinct "cite book" template kindly leave well enough alone or take it up with an admin. BTW the ISBN number has to be the ISBN-10 not the ISBN-13 if it is to function as a link. Minorhistorian ( talk) 18:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I have submitted the article for a peer review, here is the link Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Long Range Desert Group any editors welcome to contribute. -- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 22:40, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
If the majority used the Lee Enfield No. I Mk III rifles, it clear that some used other types. So its better just to claim they used Lee-Enfield rifles. Unless we can prove they only exclusively used the No.1 Mk III. The British Army at the time were issued the Rifle, No. 4 Mk I. The Colonial armies tended to keep the older version.-- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 11:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
One: The Royal Signals site does not discuss the equipment used by the LRDG, and does not discuss its use by the LRDG - it is a summary of the factory specifications as used by tanks using whip aerials,(tell me how many times have you seen a photo of a British tank, using a No. 11 W/T with a rod aerial?). The LRDG, with the assistance of dry desert atmosphere and expert signalsmen, were able to far outreach the official specs with either of the 1 m or 2m rod aerials.
Two: O'Carroll has researched the LRDG for many years, has interveiwed many veterans and knows far more about their equipment, methods and personnel than Jim Sweeney, Molinari or the Royal Signals website - the material is properly sourced and researched by an expert (O'Carroll) so please leave as is and please don't denigrate without actually reading the book cited.
Three: I thought this article was under peer review, so are the continuing stream of modifications absolutely needed? Why not wait for more comment? Minorhistorian ( talk) 01:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
== Wireless ranges ==
Using High frequency rod antennas have a limited range and its now where near the hundreds its to do with the signals being absorbed into the earth by attenuation. Greater distances are used by dipole antennas that bounce radio waves off the ionosphere which can travel around the world. To claim that the LRDG managed to transmit hundreds of miles with a rod antenna is not possible. Even today's modern radio equipment only has the range to transmit in HF with a rod antenna of 50 to 60 miles. This is extended by putting the antenna on top of a mast modern British Army ones are 10 and 20 meters tall but this still limits the range due to attenuation. Ita also effected by the curvature of the Earth. Not being a Radio expert I have set up and used HF radios in the Middle East and communicated back to the UK so I do have some knowledge of the limitations of rod and dipole antennas. The operators of this equipment were from the Royal Signals it would also seem that if in 1940 they had managed to transmit radio signals over hundreds of miles, they would still be doing so today. -- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 10:42, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
The LRDG used Morse code with the No. 11 set and were able to transmit over distances of hundreds of miles with a Wyndom dipole antenna system slung between two wooden 17 feet (5.2 m) tall poles.
or
The LRDG used Morse code with the No. 11 and with a Wyndom dipole antenna system slung between two wooden 17 feet (5.2 m) tall poles were able to transmit and receive radio messages over great distance's.
-- Jim Sweeney ( talk) 13:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
High Frequency (3 to 30 MHz) radio signals can propagate to a distant receiver figure 2.1, via the: Ground wave: near the ground for short distances, about 100 km over land and 300 km over sea.
The hop length is the ground distance covered by a radio signal after it has been refracted once from the ionosphere and returned to Earth, figure 2.3. The upper limit of the hop length is set by the height of the ionosphere and the curvature of the Earth. For E and F region heights of 100 km and 300 km, the maximum hop lengths with an elevation angle of 4 degrees, are 1800 km and 3200 km, respectively. Distances greater than these will require more than one hop. For example, a distance of 6100 km would require a minimum of 4 hops by the E region and 2 hops via the F region with such an elevation angle. More hops may be required with larger antenna elevation angles.
So, coming back to the article I once again found myself having to defend almost every single edit I was making, and begrudging every minute I had to waste trying to explain why it is important to stick to at least some of the information that was and is still useful to readers who are not familiar with the LRDG, or don't have acess to the cited books. It still irks me that I have wasted so much time over the last couple of weeks having to almost plead with one editor to at least make an effort to use accurate information on details such as weaponry and equipment, instead of the more generalised information he was wanting to include. Minorhistorian ( talk) 03:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I have just read an excellent academic treament of British Special Forces in the Desert War and believe this page could benefit from a citation/reference. It is:
Hargreaves, Andrew L., ‘The Advent, Evolution and Value of British Specialist Formations in the Desert War, 1940-43’, in Global War Studies, Vol. 7, No.2, (2010), pp.7-62
From what I understand Dr. Hargreaves wrote a PhD on WWII Special Forces, but am not sure if he has written any books.
This could be useful to other pages dealing with similar units.
Best,
David Trill — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.43.118.20 ( talk) 07:52, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
A good book is Killing Rommal if you need a genral idea of how the LRDG operated.It is historical fiction. Nhog ( talk) 18:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Elements of the Sudan Defence Force were involved in the LRDG because of their knowledge of Arabic to be able to communicate with the Arab and Berber tribesmen. Their involvement was post 1941 after Orde Wingate relieved of his duties and the Gideon Force was disbanded. Pop goes the we ( talk) 04:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)<ref>Army War Records 1941-1944</ref>
There is some controversy over the inclusion of films in this article, justified by a low opinion of a website source as "not RS", although there is no indication as to why.
No problem - I'm just kicking myself that I'd completely forgotten about the doco Lost in Libya! ◆Min✪rhist✪rian◆ MTalk 08:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
The spelling in numerous places is "Wyndom". Maybe that was the trademark name of an antenna as marketed by a company and is what is intended. If not, the spelling should be changed to "Windom" which is the name for the type of antenna. Descriptions of the Windom antenna can be found in, for example, amateur radio literature. Akld guy ( talk) 09:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
I have removed this part out of the lead. In fact, Rommel was referring to the SAS, not to the LRDG. See for example: Eamon Gearon, William Seymour], Amanda Ferguson. The Banner talk 13:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
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Why does the article now claim that the LRDG uses PIATs - when the PIAT didn't enter service until Sicily?
Also the claims for sticky bombs and Lewes bombs sound much more like Stirling's SAS than the LRDG. Andy Dingley ( talk) 02:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
In the section titled "History", the claim "The daytime temperatures could reach 60 °C (140 °F)" seems unlikely, as the highest recorded surface temperature on earth is only 56.7 °C (Formerly 57.8 °C) according to this page: Highest_temperature_recorded_on_Earth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.166.81 ( talk) 20:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to know why my addition of a comic book series (by a famous author!) about the LRDG was reverted and thus removed from the "Popular culture" section... Comic books about a military unit are the perfect example of a popular culture depiction of said military unit! The removal is particularly ridiculous when «two of the entries in that "popular culture" section are about historical documentaries. So, comic books are not popular culture but historical documentaries are?! Carry on... Gazilion ( talk) 14:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)