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It says in th section about Christianity "In Christianity, it is often suggested that the prologue of the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos"
Shouldn't this be changed to, "In Christianity, the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos in the prologue." or something along those lines. This is because it isn't suggested that he was referred to as that. The Gospel of John was written in Greek and the word used was Logos. - Amazon10x 23:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Assertions about Heraclitus require clear and precise citation to competent secondary sources. Is logos the same as Fire, or matter, or War? All these can be held; to assert any of them in Wikipedia's voice, as consensus, needs overwhelming evidence from competent secondary sources.
The quotation from Heraclitus also requires explicit sourcing; the numbering of Heraclitus's fragments differs from editor to editor, and any translation is in part interpretation (this translation also includes explicit interpretation). Whose? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It is moderately bizarre to describe Socrates as living in the 300s, when he died in 399, We have very few of his actual words, and I don't recall logos as one of them.
More seriously, the meaning of logos as "inward thought, opinion, ground for belief, common sense" was not invented by the Socratics, It's standard Greek, attested from Herodotus and Sophocles; see LSJ.
I would like to see sources for the random comments that end this section. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the long section on translations and such are important or relevant to the topic. It is clear that it is biased (quoting the New World Translation, which only one sect of Christianity uses.) Whether or not Jesus is God, is not the issue. I think it should be mentioned that Jesus is referred to as logos but the rest of that discussion needs to go. Post your thoughts on the deity of Christ on a more relevant topic. Matwenzel 02:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I was heard about logos in my politics lesson at Fudan University in Shanghai. My teather appreciated it very much. at here, as a Chinese, I want to tell the difference between Logos and Tao(道)。 In some aspects, they are quite familiar.Logos express by words, but tao usually can not been expressed. I have to feel it and understand it by your self. PZ
It seems to me that the primary impact of the concept of Logos on the western tradition was through Platonism. It is through Platonism that we see the logos of Heraclitus and the Pythagoreans, reacting to Platonism that we get the Logos of Aristotle, and derived from Platonism that we get the Stoic Logos and the Christian Logos. Therefore it seems that this article is missing its heart. If anyone agrees and would like to collaborate in writing a Pythagorean-Plato-Platonism section then I would be interested Bernie Lewin 04:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I have just disambiguated several wikilinks in this article to point to an appropriate unambiguous article (e.g., a piped link to German language instead of just a link to German, which is a dab page). There were two links I had trouble dealing with, and I'd like to ask that someone who's more familiar with this article's subject matter try to do something about them.
1. In the section "Jung's analytical psychology," there was a link to eros. That page is a dab page, but none of the targets seemed suitable for this reference, so I removed the wikilink. If one of the targets at eros is actually appropriate here, or if an appropriate page can be created (and listed at eros), please change accordingly.
2. In the "See also" section, there is a link to Sophia. I couldn't tell which, if any, of the dab targets on that page is appropriate here; in this case, I didn't remove the link because it would seem stupid to have an unlinked item in the "See also" section. Please proceed as for eros above.
Thanks, Tkynerd 23:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Please, let me add that the assertion that logos being both "God" and "in God" is mutually exclusive is naive in that it misses the discussion in John 17, "I in thee,and and thou in me, etc." which is the basis for the ancient Christian understanding of "circumincession" which underlies the very basis of Christian experience, and that the writer should have considered the logos Christology of the Early Church and the fact that the very difficulty of such passages is evidence in itself of their veracity /originality with the text.
Thx all, [rdeaster@wbs.edu] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.15.100.145 ( talk) 17:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Removed from Word when I turned it into a disambiguation page:
Logos also has parallels to the eastern concepts of Tao and dharma.
Can anyone find a place to put this? The assertion doesn't come with any other information to support it (though I don't doubt it), and definitely doesn't belong in word. -- Ardonik 21:38, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)
In the second sentence of the first paragraph, it says, "It derives from the verb λέγω lego: to say. This is the primary meaning of the word. Secondary meanings such as logic, thought etc. derive from the fact that if one is capable of λέγειν (infinitive) i.e. speech, then intelligence and thought are assumed."
However, from what I know, and from the etymological record the root of the word means not "speech" but "collect" (See [3]) The use of the particular intention of philosophers who appropriated the word, even it's written history, can not ultimately be taken to be definitive. It seems to me that the above statement is too biased in favor of the philosophical uses of the word, and ignores the word's "folk" meaning.
Now, of course, I have my own theories regarding the etymology of logos, but I will not bother to argue them here as it is not my intent to replace my theory with one that now, unsupported, presently biases this article. Rather I suggest a pragmatic solution to the controversy, which is as follows. Clearly, the meaning of logos is different in different contexts. Therefore, it would be more NPOV to refrain from making controversial statments about the "true" meaning of ancient words, the meaning of which surely preceded recorded history and instead stick to the known facts, which are (1) the etymological record, and (2) the context of its use in recorded history. In this article we have the latter but not the former. -- Betamod ( talk) 00:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraphs as they were marked "dubious" and "citation needed" for several months.
If anyone can find sources to back up these paragraphs, feel free to re-add them. — An gr If you've written a quality article... 12:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi -logycians! There is a discussion going on at the WikiProject Science Talk Page that could do with some advice. Editors in Wikiproject Science are trying to figure out whether there is any acceptable way to standardize the etymologies we give in wikipedia articles for the names of sciences ending in -logy. Any suggestions you had would be most appreciated. Calypygian ( talk) 00:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
In the claim that "the word was God" is incorrectly translated, a citation is necessary. Additionally, if examples are going to be provided of a more "correct" translation, at least a few should be from commonly accepted Biblical translations - as a Christian who is familiar with a wide variety of English Biblical translations, I had never heard of any of the translations provided here as examples. If you want to make the point as to which version is in common use, I suggest using a passage from the New King James Version, the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version, or a similar widely accepted text. Using obscure translations doesn't demonstrate either that there was an error or that the "corrected" version is in common use. -- Tim4christ17 talk 16:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Small side note - NWT Version of the bible is used by over 6 Million persons worldwide in over 69 languages ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures#Editions_and_languages) =- 43 09:53 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.82.39 ( talk) 09:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Philo calls the Logos the Chief of the Angels.
JOhn 1 can be translated in the beginning was the angel and the angel was beside the Eloha (one true God) and the Angel was an Elohim (one of the Eloha's children /angels/). Logos does not refer to Yahshuah (Jesus). The logos tabernacled in Yahshua and spoke through him.
En archê ên ho logos, In beginning was the Wisdom Angel, Shokeyn, the logos kai ho logos ên and the angel was
pros ton theon, kai theos ên ho logos. beside the Eloah and an elohim was the angel.
Robertroberg (
talk)
00:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
References to Goethe appear in two places in this article: Use in Christianity > Translations > The notorious question of how to translate logos is topicalised in Goethe's Faust, with Faust finally opting for "deed, action" (Am Anfang war die Tat) and Similar concepts > In modern philosophy > Goethe has his Faust translate John's logos as "Will".
A) Goethe's Faust is neither specifically about Christianity nor modern philosophy. Move this somewhere, or remove (my suggestion). B) If not removed, can someone verify which it is and give a cite from the original? Clearly, Goethe translates logos into GERMAN -- "will, deed, action" are all interpretations of English translators, and pretty disparate at that. I'd chuck it altogether, this belongs in the entry on Faust if anything (because like Faust it's clearly flawed -- no Greek sense of logos corresponds to "Tat"). Orbis 3 ( talk) 22:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
In the section "Use in Christianity", the Author uses incorrect style when quoting from the Bible. The proper citation style is:
(Book Name) (Chapter Number):(Verse Number)
For Example: Genesis 5:1 means Verse One of Chapter Five of the Book of
Genesis.
I am not sure where in the Bible the verse "the logos became flesh and walked among us" (the verse that must be cited) comes from.
Ianus Maximus 21:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Is the section entitled "Contemporary references" encyclopedically relevant? Antique Rose ( talk) 20:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
A bit of a glaring omission! Plato's doctrine of Three Hypostases should be mentioned as the second Hypostasis is the Divine Mind or Logos. This clearly anticipates the later Chr
It's as simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.141.201 ( talk) 02:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
The root idea (which no doubt predates the Greek language) of 'logos' is 'word'. Used as a verb it would mean 'wording' or using the faculty (that humans possess and animals lack) of speech or of thinking in words. In other words the faculty of 'reason'. Lemmiwinks2 ( talk) 22:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This entire article is deeply flawed in that it is supporting only a Christian version of the term and does not attempt to outline or acknowledge the constestable nature of the term and the lengthy history of it outside of Christianity's adoption of it. The page attempts to describe the term as settled and suggests, aside from minor allusions to complexity, that it is grounded only in a Christ-supported notion. The attempts that I have made to insert some balance into the definition have been quickly deleted based on, what I see as, "half-cocked" assertions. The braver approach would be to hear what I am saying and acknowledge that it has merit, specifically on the grounds that logos is a essentially contested concept. We need a collective set of reasonable voices here to challenge the ideologues who are "camping out" on this term and guarding it like a sacred and settled text. Edunoramus ( talk) 02:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
On the basis that a disambiguated entry already exists at Logos (Christianity), I am proposing that this entry be completely re-written in order to further disambiguate the historical antecedents of the term, especially in the rhetorical and philosophic senses from the Christian-centric definition of the term.
Here is the crux of what I am getting at, there is a distinct sense within the term Logos that can be traced back through Plato and Aristotle to Heraclitus. The notion generally suggests "everything is in flux, nothing is stable" but yet Logos is the pervasive basis upon which the world operates, it is in this sense, the stability of the world. Now, in contemporary terms, in which we presumably inhabit a diverse and pluralistic society, if we get down to discussing what gives a pervasive order to the Universe, we are going to get to essentially contested concepts and Logos is one of them. For this reason, we have to distinguish between our theology, our rhetoric and our philosophy because where they intertwine, we are dealing with issues of ontology and cosmology. This is what makes Logos a very complicated term. Edunoramus ( talk) 16:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
For purposes of tracking the consensus, I support YWGonzalez's proposal resolve the dispute per WP:SS. I will try to re-state my reasoning succinctly below. -- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 17:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Extended content
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LogosThis peer review discussion has been closed. Thanks, Edunoramus ( talk) 01:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Here are some comments, focused mainly on the article content and the issues under discussion at the moment:
I hope my comments are helpful. Please feel free to drop a note on my talk page if I can be helpful in the future. -- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 20:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Response 1Thank you for this very thorough review. I agree with you in pretty much every regard. Here are my responses.
Those are my two cents لسلام عليكم - يونس الوجدي گونزاليس ( talk) 22:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Response 2Thank you for the detailed feedback.
Process issuesBy the way, editors should note the review comments by Nasty Housecat above were in response to specific canvassing in response to an existing RfC discussion. -- Radagast 3 ( talk) 23:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
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As per our previous discussions, I am adding this subtopic area to discuss WP:SS compliance for this article. -- Edunoramus ( talk) 15:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
-- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 17:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Funny, because you also seem to agree with me that: "the answer is not re-write but expand", as do backtable and Radagast. So I think it is simple: the energy is best used to put the rewrite question to bed, then expand. No need for fanfare, this is not the most complex topic in the world. By the way, I agree that the cat was nicely sleeping in its own house, when WP:canvassing woke him up. History2007 ( talk) 05:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I was providing comments, because this was a request for comment. And my first comment was that there was "too much talk and argument" before I arrived (a soccer game with 2 players and 12 commentators I said). Now, I take it that you have conceded that the cat was canvassed given that you did not pursue that point. Now, to content. Again, pretty simple:
Apart from Etymology this article has 7 sections. Look at these 4 sections:
What do they have in common: "They are empty, or almost empty". This article does NOT require "rewriting" it requires "writing". It is a simple observation. But most of the writing is on the talk page now. The only two sections that have content are the Greek and Christian sections. And I think they are both too long, given that there are Mains that can be used. It is easy to improve things pretty quickly: write the empty sections, and shorten the long ones via Mains. Then the article will have balance in terms of the real estate allocated to different issues. Then, as I said above, all the other articles that really need help can receive the help they deserve, for which they dialed 911 long ago. History2007 ( talk) 15:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, but the empty four sections do need material, anyway. The Christian and Greek sections are of an almost manageable size, but obviously the empty sections need help. History2007 ( talk) 01:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
No worries. I am pretty sure there is no mechanism within Wikipedia for sending an electric shock through your keyboard. So you have my encouragement and support to add good material. History2007 ( talk) 02:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
The Bible contains the Logos: the order of things, but also the Rhema: Its appeal to the individual person. The Greek word Rhema is used instead of the word Logos in some occasions in the Bible to give a different twist to the Logos. While Logos is objective, the Rhema is subjective. Alan347 ( talk) 09:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
The Bible can be read in two modes. According to the Logos as described in this article and according to the Rhema which does not exclude the Logos but adds to it the subjective understanding of the person reading the Biblical text.
The place to fix it is probably in the Rhema article that has "zero references", then refer to it in the Logos (Christianity) article, and a few words here. The wording (pun intended) needs to change a little, but for starters, here are some references, given that none exist in the Rhema article:
But again, only a passing mention in this article is best, and the full development of the comparison should be done in a Main elsewhere. History2007 ( talk) 00:16, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
LOGIC | ARISTOTLE | GRAMMAR |
subject | onoma | noun |
predicate | rhema | verb |
proposition | logos | sentence |
Both Plato (c. 428–347 BC) and Aristotle (384–322 BC) used the terms logos, rhema and onoma. In Plato's usage, a logos (often translatable as a sentence) is a sequence in which verbs are mingled with nouns and every logos must have an onoma and rhema. For Plato, every logos was either true or false and in a logos, names included rhema which denotes actions and onoma a mark set on those who do the actions. [1] Aristotle identified three components as central to the poposition: onoma, rhema and logos. These terms are translated differently depending on the context of the discussion - grammar or logic, as in the table on the right. But it was only in the 12th century that grammarians began to think in terms of units we understand as subject and predicate. [2]
Is it all Greek to me why there is need for a rewrite hoopla any more. What has happened is:
I do think the Christian section can shrink by 20%-30% and the long quotes just be moved out. But that is no major work, just major headache discussion on how to shrink it - a waste of time to debate it I think. Then once the Neoplatonic item is written (should take less than a day to write) we should have a reasonably good article with plenty of direct references. It will be Greek to me why there would need to be any hoopla any more. History2007 ( talk) 11:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Logos and Christianity as a specific topic should NOT be included in this article. Instead, there ought to be a redirect link at the heading. All that is needed on Logos and Christianity within this article is a brief one paragraph mention that concepts surrounding 'logoi' have played a critical role in Christianity historical. A separate page would allow for greater and more specific elucidation of the topic. Furthermore, reducing and redirecting Logos and Christianity would all the original intent of this article to be prominent.
I will delete this section, replace it with a brief summary and redirect in five days, unless there is substantial reason not to proceed. DoNNNald 06:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It is asserted without any backing evidence that the common and most accepted Translation of John 1:1 is false. Quotation of a selected few, of thousands of translations is not sufficient evidence for such a claim. I will edit it to show both POVs.
--
Mathaytace
19:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with putting some of -- Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)the translations back, but I want to see that both sides are represented. The last writer, whoever it was, made assertions that are of a minority opinion, with no evidence. -- Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC) Lets leave some of the translations, but insert my more neutral text. Sound fair?
-- Mathaytace 03:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added an explanation of the reason for differing translation. There is no proof of "minority" opinion. I have removed bias adjectives in favor of neutral adjectives.
The text above me is unsigned, and of a different author. The current version is slanted toward the alternate translation. I have removed references to biblical texts concerning the equality/inferiority of Jesus, as they are irrelevant. I cleaned up the language of the Traditional section, removing words that cast unnecessary doubt on the interpretation. The Alternate version of the text is argued for, rather than offered as a possiblility. I have added a neutrality tag for this reason. This is obviously a work in progress.
-- Mathaytace 11:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Mr. Tweet. I edited the post so that the part in contention gives two short blurbs of equal weight, with no support for either position. The Deeper translation issues really should be addressed in John 1:1 article. Thank you for your clarifying opinion Mr. Tweet.
-- Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Mathaytace, before removing large slabs of text, allow some discussion to occur first. I dont agree with this section being summed up in two short blurbs at present. The meaning of this passage underpins major theological debates of what Logos is in terms of the various Christian faiths, so it is not to be glossed over.
I would be happy to see the translations move over to John 1:1 as Jonathan has suggested, and Jesus the Logos and Christology are possibly an appropriate place to discuss the finer details of this subject, but I would expect that the section on this article would be a good summary of those two articles. John Vandenberg 03:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem is, as it stands, the text of the article is biased towards the "a god" translation of the text.
My goal is to remove the bias. -- Mathaytace 12:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Most of the section entitled "Use in Christianity" is entirely off topic and should rather be placed in a section titled, perhaps, "non-Trinitarian views of John 1:1" and probably not in this article at all. This article is "about logos (logoi) in ancient Greek philosophy, mathematics, rhetoric, and Christianity" and not about the Divinity of Christ, which is what the editor of this section is apparently trying to argue here. If discussion of interpretations of John 1:1 belongs a "Use in Christianity" section of this article, then its use in Christianity is what should be discussed and, historically, the Logos has been "use[d by] Christianity" to mean Jesus is one with God. Now, if someone wants to add a section titled something like "Uses of the Word Logos and Interpretation of John 1:1 that most Christians Throughtout History Would Consider Heretical", then fine by me. They can write whole sections on how non-Trinitarian views of John 1:1 were discussed and rejected by the church hundreds of years ago and have continued to be throughout its history. They could also throw in that a belief in the divinity of Christ has historically been considered a prerequesite for calling oneself a Christian.
Also, the statement "Christians who profess belief in the Trinity often consider this to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is the Divine Son of God. Usually in connection with the idea that God and Jesus are equals." is both poor gramar and patently false. It should be, in fact, so obviously false to anyone theologically educated enough to be posting here that it causes one to wonder if it wasn't written to be purposefully misleading to the uninformed. "Christians who prefess belief in the Trinity" do not believe that "God and Jesus are equals," they believe that God and Jesus are one, or, to quote the Nicene Creed, that Jesus is "very God of very God." Jsminch 23:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is very badly written. There are a number of sentence fragments dangling around, there don't appear to be topic sentences at the beginning of paragraphs, placement of the paragraphs themselves seems pretty random; In general, this is difficult reading. Have any of you actually tried to read this section beginning to end recently? Some examples:
There are more (probably many more) problems than these. I stopped reading because it was making my brain hurt. Generally speaking, this whole section feels way too long to be on topic, and way too random and technical to be in anyway useful. Couldn't you just say that there are translation details pertaining to the use of this word that are significant to christians, broadly explain the significance and point interested parties to another page with more information? And if you take me up on that recommendation, perhaps you should proof-read the new page?
See Entry #5 on John 1:1 for in depth discussion of possible translation options for John 1:1. Fwnid 17:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The part about Justin Martyr uses some of his words about seeing Jesus as an "angel" "in second place to God," but it leaves the impression Martyr considered Jesus/Logos as a separate lesser created being, which doesn't jibe with the writings of Martyr about Logos and holy spirit, which he gave as in the third position, I have below (I've never edited before--sorry about the formatting): Justin Martyr, in "First Apology," chap.63, interpreted Jesus to be the theophany (God appearing as an angel)--the angel of the Lord who appeared to Moses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophany http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/justin.html
"We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was." ("Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew," chap.61) "Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of
the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." ("The First Apology of Justin," chap.13)
"But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who
follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." ("First Apology," 6)
"Worship God alone." "Whence to God alone we render worship." ("First Apology," 16 and 17)-- Glen1ster ( talk) 02:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Queston: The entry currently says the concept of logos spermatikos is NOT related to use of the word logos in the Gospel of John. I think that must need some clarification, and I can't understand how that can be true. The way John uses logos is to claim that Jesus is the generating principle and order of the universe. Isn't that the same usage as logos spermatikos? If not, then what is the difference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.237.4.41 ( talk) 14:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I removed the bold part of this sentence: "In English, logos is the root of " logic," and of the " -logy" suffix (e.g., geology)"
The reference used to support both claims is http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-logy.html Oxford Dictionary definition and while thi supports the later's origin it does not support the former's origin. The link to Wikitionary in the first para for logos goes to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82 which gives the etymology as "I say" whereas for Logic the Wikitionary in the first para goes to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE ehre the definition is uncountable. These are two alliterative words with different definitions. 87.194.131.188 ( talk) 23:42, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
There is some confusion in the etymology in the article.
(in greek: λόγος) derives from the greek λέγειν (léghein) which means "to bind" or "to relate" or "to hold together", "to make order" as the italian/latin “legare” for example (the root indeed is Indo-European). It could also intended as “to sort” or better "to categorize" as computational process. The meaning “word” is a consequence of this. The others means are subsequent. Sorry for english — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.74.24 ( talk) 08:56, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
This would imply all parts of the mind, not just the mathematical function of the executive function (which is actually rather weak compared so, say, the oldest calculating machines -- sorry, human robots!) Rationality is a Latin invention possibly to describe "business logic," which is notoriously devoid of any kind of moral logic, or emotional intelligence (the center part of the brain where rationalists are typically missing mirror cells). From this "deduction," I think the best future for this page is blanking.-- John Bessa ( talk) 15:54, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
The quote about the Stoics' use of Logos Spermatikos cited here conflicts with Vivien Law's account of their use of Logos in The History of Linguistics in Europe From Plato to 1600, Cambridge University Press, 2003, pp 38-42. Not only does she not mention Logos spermatikos, she notes that we have no primary sources for the Stoics' views on language and the secondary sources are questionable. Her view is that the stoics departed from the Aristotelian model of Onoma-Rhema-Logos and saw it simply as 'meaningful sound', a subset of 'lexis' (writable sound) which, in turn, she says they saw as a subset of 'phone' (all sounds). As it stands, therefore, the article is biased. 109.145.194.227 ( talk) 18:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
In the intro: "In English, the word is the root of "log" (as in record)"
I can't find any reference for this. Every reference for log gives Middle English logge (wood cut from tree) as its root and the use as record derives from a log used to measure the speed of a vessel and the logbook recording these measures. Barring a proper reference, I think this phrase is fanciful and should be removed from the article. Michael Daly 21:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
In the entire section after Philo, not limiting to the Christian or Neo-Platonic "demiurge" general meaning, there is a clear explanation for the difference between "God the Cause" and "Logos the Creator" - and it answers the John 1 conundrum as well. I cannot write this up as it is dependent upon research in dimensionality that I am just now publishing, moving from abandoned sites to 49Miracles.com, which is believe it or not, a commercial philosophy site. So the simple explanation is that the Logos is a later manifestation of causation within a layered Quantum Dimensionality. And I can even get very specific about the Logos, that it would represent the manifestation of the quantum entanglement caused by the presence of literally words. Though slightly indefinite about God, who is ultimately the time-transcendent bridge between future-present-past, hence is the source of teleological purpose, which the Logos must carry out, in the form of continuous Time Paradox. By this interpretation, Paradox is a manifestation of a combination of Schrodinger's Cat and the Conservation law of Thermodynamics, generalized into an interwoven (not literal) parallel universe system, based on interaction of creative threads. Anyway, I hope you are entertained, and if you have any q's, a's, or doubts in the equation -- hook me up. P.S. I reserve the right to claim this as an original interpretation - credit where credit is due, as it is the conclusion of more than a decade of specialized work (author name Ion-Christopher.) Many Thanks. Xgenei ( talk) 05:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
I believe in the above, stating that Logos = Ratio (reason or purpose). I think that in John Logos means reason or purpose.
Sections from the main article with what I think they should say:
"In the beginning was the purpose [Logos], and the purpose [Logos] was with God, and the purpose [Logos] was God." (KJV with logos translated to purpose). Perhaps in our English the last clause should be “and the purpose was God's”.
From main article: "John turns the concept of the Logos on its head when he claimed "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14)."
This quote should be:
"the purpose [Logos] became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14).
I think this makes sense. That is that God had purposed to have the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (v.14) from the beginning (v.2). And that God had this purpose with the earth (the reason the earth was created) with Him at all times (v.1) (Not that the Lord Jesus Christ pre-existed with God the Father). And that this was God the Fathers purpose (v.1).
I know some religions believe that this is what John means in his writing. Should this go into the main article?
Perhaps this goes deeper than this. This might be referring to God's purpose to have us all as sons and daughters of God and for God to be our Father (2Cr 6:18), which is possible through the Lord Jesus Christ.
The article says, "By the time of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, logos was the term used to describe the faculty of human reason...." This contradicts the judgment of at least two great scholars of ancient Greek: James Adam (The Republic of Plato, 2nd edition by D.A. Rees, vol. 2, p. 70) and John Burnet (Plato's Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito, p. 188). (In support of his claim that logos "is not the faculty of reason", Adam cites an article titled "Vernunft" ("Reason") by Friedrich Schleiermacher.) According to Adam and Burnet, logos in Plato always means speech, statement, argument, account, explanation, principle, rule. Isokrates 00:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Ugh. that title-thing I just wrote could give a person hives.
This is what I am trying to get at, however. We (at least most of us, in the Western world--by philosophical reckoning--from about 1850 until the later 1900s, or even now) have been steeped in the tradition of language as representative and correlational. This refers to the way we have tended to see words as "only" words which are separate from, and independent of, the "real" concepts, ideas or things to which they point.
Many postmoderns (or pick your favorite "post-") have followed from the work of folks such as Derrida, in suggesting that there is nothing "mere" about language; that it is at least as much a component of what we know as "reality" than are other "things".
This is important because it brings new light into what has been a problematic text: "In the beginning was the Word (logos). . ." Many theologians have worked around this mystery (how can God be "word") by expanding the meaning of "word" or by moving it into some arena of particular meaning. To many this has been unsatisfactory; it is difficult to comprehend why these few verses would be delivered in a voice so very different from the rest of the book of John.
But what if we were to accept the possibility that the Scriptures were inspired? What if they were written/revised/spoken/rewritten so that they had meaning for the present audience, but also would speak to readers from different times and places? This is not such a large step to take if one accepts, as has the majority of the Christian Church from the beginning until now, that there is a God and that this God is omniscient and not bound by time.
Wittgenstein in particular might be illuminating. Here is a paragraph from the Wikipedia article: __start quote___ On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise, on this account, when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment, where all the familiar and necessary landmarks have been deliberately removed. Removed for what appear to be sound philosophical reasons, but which are, for Wittgenstein, the very source of the problem. Wittgenstein describes this metaphysical environment as like being on frictionless ice; where the conditions are apparently perfect for a philosophically and logically perfect language (the language of the Tractatus), where all philosophical problems can be solved without the confusing and muddying effects of everyday contexts; but where, just because of the lack of friction, language can in fact do no actual work at all. There is much talk in the Investigations, then, of “idle wheels” and language being “on holiday” or a mere "ornament", all of which are used to express the idea of what is lacking in philosophical contexts. To resolve the problems encountered there, Wittgenstein argues that philosophers must leave the frictionless ice and return to the “rough ground” of ordinary language in use; that is, philosophers must “bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use.”
_____end quote_____
Especially if we simplify a bit to capture the main thrust, something like "On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise. . .when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment. . .. Wittgenstein argues that . . . philosphers must "bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use."
Now the reference to God as "the Word" assumes a strikingly new tone. This is, by the way, a tone that fits more easily with the rest of John's gospel than does the disembodied theological referent. John, the apostle "whom Jesus loved" gives us a gospel that is more 'human' than the synoptics.
What a way to speak to us about the incarnation--the embodiment of God into human flesh.
I completely understand that this is probably not a meaning that the original hearers (probably speaking Aramaic, not Greek) would grasp in the same way as a postmodern might. Yet if we remember the striking account of Acts 14:
When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they yelled out in the language of Lycaonia, "The gods have turned into humans and have come down to us!" The people then gave Barnabas the name Zeus, and they gave Paul the name Hermes, because he did the talking. The temple of Zeus was near the entrance to the city. Its priest and the crowds wanted to offer a sacrifice to Barnabas and Paul. So the priest brought some bulls and flowers to the city gates. (Acts 14:11-13 Contemporary English Version)
All is to say that the audience witnessing the event, as well as the audience later reading the account after the Gospel of John had been written, would have no problem with the idea that the gods might descend from the heavens and walk around, interacting with ordinary people. Note that the priests of the temple of Zeus apparently believed it.
So if it makes sense to frame "Logos" as "the Word" (rather than as logic or concept or ...) in both the original and present situations, perhaps we don't need to work so hard at bringing in an enlightenment-era account. Though it certainly would not have been heard the same way by a First Century and Twentieth Century audience, the word works in both cases.
I realize that this is not the place for new theories or speculations. However, I would be completely surprised if this were new--I believe it likely that this point has been covered by theologians of the last few decades.
I include it because the things that were included (Tao, mathematics, etc.) seemed way farther afield than a reading of the text with rather ordinary meanings. And it just might be that Wittgenstein understood this, though I have not run across any Wittgensteinian theology. After all, he was known as "the Gospel man" for handing out copies in the war.
Also, I do understand this is much longer than usual, but it is a rather complex idea. It is because of this that I thought it better to post here than directly to the article. This isn't a campaign, I don't have much at stake whether it gets included or not. It does, however, seem to me to meet the basic criteria for a reasoned argument, and seems much more plausible than many. . .
Roy 04:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
If one reads the initial definition of the term on this page, "Logos" has already been surrendered to semiology on this page. I came here in hopes of introducing the concept of classical "Logos" as it is opposed to "Chaos" that preceded it in the Greek cosmological sense. One does not have to subscribe to this idea to preserve it, yet the definition offered to any casual Wiki reader reduces "Logos" to a mere facet of linguistics.
Sad, really. If one wants to understand modern linguistics, one has to have the idea of "western" start somewhere - Logos is a good place. If one wants to put forward Derrida's idea of "false binary oppositions" being endemic to western thinking, it would be helpful to understand "logos" vs. "chaos" unmolested by reductionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.221.147 ( talk) 22:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I analyzed the Logos article for my critique. One question was, "Is each fact referenced with an appropriate, reliable reference?" After going through the article, I would have to say yes, the majority, if not all facts, are referenced with an appropriate and strong reference. Besides checking each fact, another way to prove this is to look at the extensive reference list at the end of the article. Another question is, "Check a few citations. Do the links work? Is there any close paraphrasing or plagiarism in the article?" After looking at some of the facts, as well as clicking and viewing citations associated with them, I conclude that the majority of the links work. Although my review was brief, most of the article did not appear to be plagiarized. Most information was presented in a different, unique matter, and the majority of quotes were very brief. This article on Logos is an example of what an article on Wikipedia should be. Ckid199 ( talk) 05:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Question one is, "Is any information out of date? Is anything missing that could be added?" This page has many sources from a long time ago but in this case that can be okay because the historical context and the accepted history of this has not changed. Along with the older sources, there are many new ones from the past few years. To answer the question, no, the information is not out of date and nothing about the topic seems to be missing. Question two is, "Check a few citations. Do the links work? Is there any close paraphrasing or plagiarism in the article?" I went to the bottom of the page and checked a few of the citations and there links and the ones I clicked on, the links did work. When reading through the article I did not find any close papraphrasing or plagiarism, I assume that it would be remove quickly so that is why I did not find any. Alexdh9 ( talk) 21:37, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm reviewing this article for a WikiEducation assignment. This article seems to use neutral language throughout and includes many solid references. After skimming through a few other comments on this article, I would agree that some of the information in the Christianity section would be more appropriately located in John 1:1, namely, the discussion of different translations in the section "God" or "a god". That being said, I think it is a well-balanced article and I found it very informative. oadugmore ( talk) 23:13, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
In the first paragraph:
"Logos is the logic behind an argument." "Logos tries to persuade an audience using logical arguments and supportive evidence."
The first sentence is especially unhelpful. Something more substantial should be placed here. "Logos is the method, order, and presentation of an argument."
The second one just needs the logical clipped.
And the source is tripod page as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.149.136.201 ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I believe that logos means fraction or ratio in Greek math. That's why logarithms are called logarithms: logos-arithmos = ratio-number. Logarithms can be used to measure ratios, e.g. at a logarithmic axis.
The several meanings of Greek logos and Latin ratio seem to connect nicely. We have logos = ratio = fraction. Since proportions can be expressed as fractions, like two-to-three, 2::3, 2:3 or 2/3, we also have the meaning proportion. Being able to see things in their proper proportions has to do with being sensible, rational, knowing (rhyme and) reason. But rationality deals with that which can be verbalised, hence with words.
In math, rational numbers are numbers that can be written as fractions, describing those proportions the Greeks would call commensurable (actually, that's the latinised word; what's the Greek???), where as irrational numbers are those that cannot be written as fractions, realted to incommensurable proportions (abhorred by the Pythagoreans).
Now, I don't really know this stuff, but if it's not too contrived, someone else can perhaps incorporate some of it into the article. -- Niels Ø 17:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC), rev. -- Niels Ø 07:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
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I came here looking to contrast Logos with Pathos and Ethos. Are these other words mentioned anywhere in the first paragraph? No. In fact it seems to be a bit of a quasi-religious mess; not quite what I was expecting. So off to the talk page I go, where with growing dismay unrolls one of the messiest pedantic bunfights I've ever had the misery to read.
As unbiased encyclopaedists, somewhere in the first paragraph we should insist that this article states: it is considered one of the three modes of persuasion, alongside ethos and pathos. This is self-evident. But I ain't gonna add any such text; it would be reverted within milliseconds by the weird religious or otherwise nit-picking hijackers that have already rendered the opening of what should be a fine article as an almost unintelligible mess.
Yuck. Funny how the pages for Pathos and Ethos seem much more digestible... Blitterbug 08:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blitterbug ( talk • contribs)
I would like to add to this section somewhat: For Heraclitus logos provided the link between rational discourse and the world's rational structure [1].
The total would become:
The rest seems to be an introduction to quotes. I would like to change it to the following:
"This LOGOS holds always but humans always prove unable to understand it, both before hearing it and when they have first heard it. For though all things come to be in accordance with this LOGOS, humans are like the inexperienced when they experience such words and deeds as I set out, distinguishing each in accordance with its nature and saying how it is. But other people fail to notice what they do when awake, just as they forget what they do while asleep. ( Diels-Kranz 22B1)"
"For this reason it is necessary to follow what is common. But although the LOGOS is common, most people live as if they had their own private understanding. ( Diels-Kranz 22B2)"
"Listening not to me but to the LOGOS it is wise to agree that all things are one. ( Diels-Kranz 22B50) [6]"
What does everybody else think?
-- Faust ( talk) 20:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, do you want to drop the quotations? It seems I should not jump in and work on too much at the same time, so my idea was to add just the one line for now. By the way, I noticed I misunderstood your work concerning logos in neoplatonism at your talk page as well, sorry. I will fix it one of these days (this evening, tomorrow, the day after or so). Apologies! -- Faust ( talk) 20:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
"This LOGOS holds always but humans always prove unable to understand it, both before hearing it and when they have first heard it. For though all things come to be in accordance with this LOGOS, humans are like the inexperienced when they experience such words and deeds as I set out, distinguishing each in accordance with its nature and saying how it is. But other people fail to notice what they do when awake, just as they forget what they do while asleep. ( Diels-Kranz 22B1)"
"For this reason it is necessary to follow what is common. But although the LOGOS is common, most people live as if they had their own private understanding. ( Diels-Kranz 22B2)"
"Listening not to me but to the LOGOS it is wise to agree that all things are one. ( Diels-Kranz 22B50) [12]"
Ok, I added what you had with minor touch up. By the way: "Heraclitus stressed that man can not, and will never, understand logos which is always present" was also suggested by Carl Jung! I do not have the exact reference for that now, but Jung suggested that the subconscious would move in ways that would result in what Heraclitus said. Of course, neither has scientific proof for their statements, but would be fun to find the Jung quote and relate the two. Jung was a master of "re-packaging". History2007 ( talk) 08:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
I love what you did with it. By the way: I did mention the Heraclitus quote, but not literally. That seemed immoral to me. I'll leave something on your talk page. Then you can see what you want to do with it. -- Faust ( talk) 08:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Left it at your talk page as you have seen. -- Faust ( talk) 17:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi guys, I think we should consider translating logos as "objective reality". BTW, terrific quotes selection. I spent last few days bitching about most people being utterly incapable of grasping that very concept. And the 3d quote Jesus alluded to a few times... or rather repeated in his own words (given that the objective reality is God): "The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.", John 14:10 Yuri Zavorotny ( talk) 12:59, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
(Please be aware that several refs appear more than once in the following list, due to neglect of the mechanism that in articles usually prevents that.)--
Jerzy•
t
02:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps a linguist or Latin scholar, could confirm Latin lex as a cognate of Greek logos which, if I understand the word correctly, conveys the meaning of law (also principle, rule). Then the same expert could establish the word's relation with Latin ratio which affords two of the meanings of logos mentioned in the introduction, that of reason and proportion. The wikipedia article on Ratio points out this connection between the words ratio and logos which is absent from this article. The essential meanings mentioned in the introduction are reason (in the meaning of lex but also of ratio), reasoned discourse (in the sense of verbum) and proportion (in the sense of ratio). From reason we can derive the meanings of cause, purpose, "natural" law, etc. From reasoned discourse can be derived the meanings of argument and speech. I am less sure about some of the other meanings included, particularly those of "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word". Perhaps some examples could illustrate how these other meanings are also afforded by logos. Logos certainly does not mean "word" in Greek but can be translated into Latin as verbum (discourse), which also has the meaning of "word" in Latin (but not in Greek). However verbum lacks the other meanings better conveyed by lex and ratio. Aristotle uses the word logos primarily with the meaning of reason anywhere where he uses the word casually. I might add somewhat pedantically that the Greek verb referred to in the first line is λέγειν (infinitive) not λέγω (that is only the first person of the present tense in the indicative of the active voice). Skamnelis ( talk) 17:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
This edit by Edunoramus introduced a literal quote from the Purdue Online Writing Lab (an Online Writing Lab at Purdue University) in the second paragraph of the lead. This contravenes multiple policies: WP:UNDUE (where available, Wikipedia uses monographs, journal papers and reference works published by expert scholars, not the creators of writing aid websites: the latter are indeed insignificant), WP:LEAD (the lead summarizes info already in the body of the article), and WP:COPYVIO (we paraphrase what reliable sources say, we do not copy-paste it: literal quotes are only to illustrate something already explained). I don't have time to deal with this now, so I'm hoping some other editor will pick this up. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 14:25, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
I'm delighted that we can have this conversation on the talk page. In fact, I'd like to briefly explain why I think this contribution in the lede of the article is important-- significantly, I think this article lede does not adequately offer a "concise overview of the article's topic" in keeping with [ Manual of Style] If you look at the history of the page and the extensive arguments and reviews that occurred over ten years ago, you will find contributions by me, Edunoramus, and you will see that there has been a very long history by those with enthusiasm and passion for the topic of Logos_(Christianity) controlling the topic of Logos. Quite simply, this is a war over meaning, see also the topic of [ essentially contested concept]. Logos is a term used in rhetoric and philosophy; and, there is a page for Logos in Christianity-- feel free to work this over there. In the meantime, I believe that,(as has been said on the previous talk pages), this entire article needs a revision. We should work on a full page revision immediately; this has gone on too long. Logos needs to connect to rhetoric here, as Logos in Christianity has its own page. BTW-- in terms of the suggestion above pertaining to WP:LEAD (that "the lead summarizes info already in the body of the article", where is it in the body of the article?), and WP:COPYVIO (we could paraphrase, however, this quote is substantive and clear and sets the tone for the changes that need to be made in terms of linking Logos to the broader study of rhetoric, which is not currently even properly summarized in this entry. Edunoramus ( talk) 15:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
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I am curious about the bot-generated message above suggesting that Logos has been assigned as a 2022 Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, then, it points to a 2016 course. If this, in fact, is managed by a real and active English 110 course at Cal Poly Pomona, then it is important to connect to the correct Wiki_Ed resource. Perhaps, an update of the Wiki_Ed online resource for the course is in the works? Edunoramus ( talk) 23:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Noted: no response, no action on above. Edunoramus ( talk) 17:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
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Recent edits have changed what, for the most part as far as I remember, was correct. I cannot find the previous version that I seem to remember, it was possibly over 2 years ago. I have edited the introduction to agree with the sources of the article because the Perseus article and the wikt link cited were no longer in agreement with the text. The primary meaning of Logos is that of Reason. The other meanings are secondary and some of them ("ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word") do not apply to the use of the word logos in classical antiquity, if at all. They are not in the Perseus source. If anyone knows of examples where the word Logos had those meanings, they can cite them. Skamnelis ( talk) 18:06, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
To advance this conversation a bit more if anyone else is interested in tackling substance over "agenda". The term "logos" is an " Essentially contested concept" that resides at the intersections of fact and metaphysics.
Logos encompasses multifaceted meanings, including reason, logic, discourse, and divine ordering principles. It involves both objective aspects, rooted in rationality and empirical evidence, and subjective elements, intertwined with metaphysical and philosophical considerations.
Daniel Kahneman's work on cognitive biases reveals the challenges of resolving the concept of "logos" as individuals' subjective biases and cognitive processes can influence their interpretations of facts, rationality, and logical reasoning. These biases can hinder objective consensus and contribute to the ongoing debate and contestation surrounding interpreting and understanding the multifaceted concept of "logos."
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
It says in th section about Christianity "In Christianity, it is often suggested that the prologue of the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos"
Shouldn't this be changed to, "In Christianity, the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos in the prologue." or something along those lines. This is because it isn't suggested that he was referred to as that. The Gospel of John was written in Greek and the word used was Logos. - Amazon10x 23:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Assertions about Heraclitus require clear and precise citation to competent secondary sources. Is logos the same as Fire, or matter, or War? All these can be held; to assert any of them in Wikipedia's voice, as consensus, needs overwhelming evidence from competent secondary sources.
The quotation from Heraclitus also requires explicit sourcing; the numbering of Heraclitus's fragments differs from editor to editor, and any translation is in part interpretation (this translation also includes explicit interpretation). Whose? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It is moderately bizarre to describe Socrates as living in the 300s, when he died in 399, We have very few of his actual words, and I don't recall logos as one of them.
More seriously, the meaning of logos as "inward thought, opinion, ground for belief, common sense" was not invented by the Socratics, It's standard Greek, attested from Herodotus and Sophocles; see LSJ.
I would like to see sources for the random comments that end this section. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the long section on translations and such are important or relevant to the topic. It is clear that it is biased (quoting the New World Translation, which only one sect of Christianity uses.) Whether or not Jesus is God, is not the issue. I think it should be mentioned that Jesus is referred to as logos but the rest of that discussion needs to go. Post your thoughts on the deity of Christ on a more relevant topic. Matwenzel 02:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I was heard about logos in my politics lesson at Fudan University in Shanghai. My teather appreciated it very much. at here, as a Chinese, I want to tell the difference between Logos and Tao(道)。 In some aspects, they are quite familiar.Logos express by words, but tao usually can not been expressed. I have to feel it and understand it by your self. PZ
It seems to me that the primary impact of the concept of Logos on the western tradition was through Platonism. It is through Platonism that we see the logos of Heraclitus and the Pythagoreans, reacting to Platonism that we get the Logos of Aristotle, and derived from Platonism that we get the Stoic Logos and the Christian Logos. Therefore it seems that this article is missing its heart. If anyone agrees and would like to collaborate in writing a Pythagorean-Plato-Platonism section then I would be interested Bernie Lewin 04:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I have just disambiguated several wikilinks in this article to point to an appropriate unambiguous article (e.g., a piped link to German language instead of just a link to German, which is a dab page). There were two links I had trouble dealing with, and I'd like to ask that someone who's more familiar with this article's subject matter try to do something about them.
1. In the section "Jung's analytical psychology," there was a link to eros. That page is a dab page, but none of the targets seemed suitable for this reference, so I removed the wikilink. If one of the targets at eros is actually appropriate here, or if an appropriate page can be created (and listed at eros), please change accordingly.
2. In the "See also" section, there is a link to Sophia. I couldn't tell which, if any, of the dab targets on that page is appropriate here; in this case, I didn't remove the link because it would seem stupid to have an unlinked item in the "See also" section. Please proceed as for eros above.
Thanks, Tkynerd 23:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Please, let me add that the assertion that logos being both "God" and "in God" is mutually exclusive is naive in that it misses the discussion in John 17, "I in thee,and and thou in me, etc." which is the basis for the ancient Christian understanding of "circumincession" which underlies the very basis of Christian experience, and that the writer should have considered the logos Christology of the Early Church and the fact that the very difficulty of such passages is evidence in itself of their veracity /originality with the text.
Thx all, [rdeaster@wbs.edu] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.15.100.145 ( talk) 17:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Removed from Word when I turned it into a disambiguation page:
Logos also has parallels to the eastern concepts of Tao and dharma.
Can anyone find a place to put this? The assertion doesn't come with any other information to support it (though I don't doubt it), and definitely doesn't belong in word. -- Ardonik 21:38, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)
In the second sentence of the first paragraph, it says, "It derives from the verb λέγω lego: to say. This is the primary meaning of the word. Secondary meanings such as logic, thought etc. derive from the fact that if one is capable of λέγειν (infinitive) i.e. speech, then intelligence and thought are assumed."
However, from what I know, and from the etymological record the root of the word means not "speech" but "collect" (See [3]) The use of the particular intention of philosophers who appropriated the word, even it's written history, can not ultimately be taken to be definitive. It seems to me that the above statement is too biased in favor of the philosophical uses of the word, and ignores the word's "folk" meaning.
Now, of course, I have my own theories regarding the etymology of logos, but I will not bother to argue them here as it is not my intent to replace my theory with one that now, unsupported, presently biases this article. Rather I suggest a pragmatic solution to the controversy, which is as follows. Clearly, the meaning of logos is different in different contexts. Therefore, it would be more NPOV to refrain from making controversial statments about the "true" meaning of ancient words, the meaning of which surely preceded recorded history and instead stick to the known facts, which are (1) the etymological record, and (2) the context of its use in recorded history. In this article we have the latter but not the former. -- Betamod ( talk) 00:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraphs as they were marked "dubious" and "citation needed" for several months.
If anyone can find sources to back up these paragraphs, feel free to re-add them. — An gr If you've written a quality article... 12:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi -logycians! There is a discussion going on at the WikiProject Science Talk Page that could do with some advice. Editors in Wikiproject Science are trying to figure out whether there is any acceptable way to standardize the etymologies we give in wikipedia articles for the names of sciences ending in -logy. Any suggestions you had would be most appreciated. Calypygian ( talk) 00:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
In the claim that "the word was God" is incorrectly translated, a citation is necessary. Additionally, if examples are going to be provided of a more "correct" translation, at least a few should be from commonly accepted Biblical translations - as a Christian who is familiar with a wide variety of English Biblical translations, I had never heard of any of the translations provided here as examples. If you want to make the point as to which version is in common use, I suggest using a passage from the New King James Version, the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version, or a similar widely accepted text. Using obscure translations doesn't demonstrate either that there was an error or that the "corrected" version is in common use. -- Tim4christ17 talk 16:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Small side note - NWT Version of the bible is used by over 6 Million persons worldwide in over 69 languages ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures#Editions_and_languages) =- 43 09:53 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.82.39 ( talk) 09:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Philo calls the Logos the Chief of the Angels.
JOhn 1 can be translated in the beginning was the angel and the angel was beside the Eloha (one true God) and the Angel was an Elohim (one of the Eloha's children /angels/). Logos does not refer to Yahshuah (Jesus). The logos tabernacled in Yahshua and spoke through him.
En archê ên ho logos, In beginning was the Wisdom Angel, Shokeyn, the logos kai ho logos ên and the angel was
pros ton theon, kai theos ên ho logos. beside the Eloah and an elohim was the angel.
Robertroberg (
talk)
00:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
References to Goethe appear in two places in this article: Use in Christianity > Translations > The notorious question of how to translate logos is topicalised in Goethe's Faust, with Faust finally opting for "deed, action" (Am Anfang war die Tat) and Similar concepts > In modern philosophy > Goethe has his Faust translate John's logos as "Will".
A) Goethe's Faust is neither specifically about Christianity nor modern philosophy. Move this somewhere, or remove (my suggestion). B) If not removed, can someone verify which it is and give a cite from the original? Clearly, Goethe translates logos into GERMAN -- "will, deed, action" are all interpretations of English translators, and pretty disparate at that. I'd chuck it altogether, this belongs in the entry on Faust if anything (because like Faust it's clearly flawed -- no Greek sense of logos corresponds to "Tat"). Orbis 3 ( talk) 22:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
In the section "Use in Christianity", the Author uses incorrect style when quoting from the Bible. The proper citation style is:
(Book Name) (Chapter Number):(Verse Number)
For Example: Genesis 5:1 means Verse One of Chapter Five of the Book of
Genesis.
I am not sure where in the Bible the verse "the logos became flesh and walked among us" (the verse that must be cited) comes from.
Ianus Maximus 21:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Is the section entitled "Contemporary references" encyclopedically relevant? Antique Rose ( talk) 20:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
A bit of a glaring omission! Plato's doctrine of Three Hypostases should be mentioned as the second Hypostasis is the Divine Mind or Logos. This clearly anticipates the later Chr
It's as simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.141.201 ( talk) 02:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
The root idea (which no doubt predates the Greek language) of 'logos' is 'word'. Used as a verb it would mean 'wording' or using the faculty (that humans possess and animals lack) of speech or of thinking in words. In other words the faculty of 'reason'. Lemmiwinks2 ( talk) 22:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This entire article is deeply flawed in that it is supporting only a Christian version of the term and does not attempt to outline or acknowledge the constestable nature of the term and the lengthy history of it outside of Christianity's adoption of it. The page attempts to describe the term as settled and suggests, aside from minor allusions to complexity, that it is grounded only in a Christ-supported notion. The attempts that I have made to insert some balance into the definition have been quickly deleted based on, what I see as, "half-cocked" assertions. The braver approach would be to hear what I am saying and acknowledge that it has merit, specifically on the grounds that logos is a essentially contested concept. We need a collective set of reasonable voices here to challenge the ideologues who are "camping out" on this term and guarding it like a sacred and settled text. Edunoramus ( talk) 02:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
On the basis that a disambiguated entry already exists at Logos (Christianity), I am proposing that this entry be completely re-written in order to further disambiguate the historical antecedents of the term, especially in the rhetorical and philosophic senses from the Christian-centric definition of the term.
Here is the crux of what I am getting at, there is a distinct sense within the term Logos that can be traced back through Plato and Aristotle to Heraclitus. The notion generally suggests "everything is in flux, nothing is stable" but yet Logos is the pervasive basis upon which the world operates, it is in this sense, the stability of the world. Now, in contemporary terms, in which we presumably inhabit a diverse and pluralistic society, if we get down to discussing what gives a pervasive order to the Universe, we are going to get to essentially contested concepts and Logos is one of them. For this reason, we have to distinguish between our theology, our rhetoric and our philosophy because where they intertwine, we are dealing with issues of ontology and cosmology. This is what makes Logos a very complicated term. Edunoramus ( talk) 16:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
For purposes of tracking the consensus, I support YWGonzalez's proposal resolve the dispute per WP:SS. I will try to re-state my reasoning succinctly below. -- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 17:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Extended content
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LogosThis peer review discussion has been closed. Thanks, Edunoramus ( talk) 01:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Here are some comments, focused mainly on the article content and the issues under discussion at the moment:
I hope my comments are helpful. Please feel free to drop a note on my talk page if I can be helpful in the future. -- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 20:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Response 1Thank you for this very thorough review. I agree with you in pretty much every regard. Here are my responses.
Those are my two cents لسلام عليكم - يونس الوجدي گونزاليس ( talk) 22:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Response 2Thank you for the detailed feedback.
Process issuesBy the way, editors should note the review comments by Nasty Housecat above were in response to specific canvassing in response to an existing RfC discussion. -- Radagast 3 ( talk) 23:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
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As per our previous discussions, I am adding this subtopic area to discuss WP:SS compliance for this article. -- Edunoramus ( talk) 15:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
-- Nasty Housecat ( talk) 17:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Funny, because you also seem to agree with me that: "the answer is not re-write but expand", as do backtable and Radagast. So I think it is simple: the energy is best used to put the rewrite question to bed, then expand. No need for fanfare, this is not the most complex topic in the world. By the way, I agree that the cat was nicely sleeping in its own house, when WP:canvassing woke him up. History2007 ( talk) 05:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I was providing comments, because this was a request for comment. And my first comment was that there was "too much talk and argument" before I arrived (a soccer game with 2 players and 12 commentators I said). Now, I take it that you have conceded that the cat was canvassed given that you did not pursue that point. Now, to content. Again, pretty simple:
Apart from Etymology this article has 7 sections. Look at these 4 sections:
What do they have in common: "They are empty, or almost empty". This article does NOT require "rewriting" it requires "writing". It is a simple observation. But most of the writing is on the talk page now. The only two sections that have content are the Greek and Christian sections. And I think they are both too long, given that there are Mains that can be used. It is easy to improve things pretty quickly: write the empty sections, and shorten the long ones via Mains. Then the article will have balance in terms of the real estate allocated to different issues. Then, as I said above, all the other articles that really need help can receive the help they deserve, for which they dialed 911 long ago. History2007 ( talk) 15:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, but the empty four sections do need material, anyway. The Christian and Greek sections are of an almost manageable size, but obviously the empty sections need help. History2007 ( talk) 01:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
No worries. I am pretty sure there is no mechanism within Wikipedia for sending an electric shock through your keyboard. So you have my encouragement and support to add good material. History2007 ( talk) 02:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
The Bible contains the Logos: the order of things, but also the Rhema: Its appeal to the individual person. The Greek word Rhema is used instead of the word Logos in some occasions in the Bible to give a different twist to the Logos. While Logos is objective, the Rhema is subjective. Alan347 ( talk) 09:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
The Bible can be read in two modes. According to the Logos as described in this article and according to the Rhema which does not exclude the Logos but adds to it the subjective understanding of the person reading the Biblical text.
The place to fix it is probably in the Rhema article that has "zero references", then refer to it in the Logos (Christianity) article, and a few words here. The wording (pun intended) needs to change a little, but for starters, here are some references, given that none exist in the Rhema article:
But again, only a passing mention in this article is best, and the full development of the comparison should be done in a Main elsewhere. History2007 ( talk) 00:16, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
LOGIC | ARISTOTLE | GRAMMAR |
subject | onoma | noun |
predicate | rhema | verb |
proposition | logos | sentence |
Both Plato (c. 428–347 BC) and Aristotle (384–322 BC) used the terms logos, rhema and onoma. In Plato's usage, a logos (often translatable as a sentence) is a sequence in which verbs are mingled with nouns and every logos must have an onoma and rhema. For Plato, every logos was either true or false and in a logos, names included rhema which denotes actions and onoma a mark set on those who do the actions. [1] Aristotle identified three components as central to the poposition: onoma, rhema and logos. These terms are translated differently depending on the context of the discussion - grammar or logic, as in the table on the right. But it was only in the 12th century that grammarians began to think in terms of units we understand as subject and predicate. [2]
Is it all Greek to me why there is need for a rewrite hoopla any more. What has happened is:
I do think the Christian section can shrink by 20%-30% and the long quotes just be moved out. But that is no major work, just major headache discussion on how to shrink it - a waste of time to debate it I think. Then once the Neoplatonic item is written (should take less than a day to write) we should have a reasonably good article with plenty of direct references. It will be Greek to me why there would need to be any hoopla any more. History2007 ( talk) 11:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Logos and Christianity as a specific topic should NOT be included in this article. Instead, there ought to be a redirect link at the heading. All that is needed on Logos and Christianity within this article is a brief one paragraph mention that concepts surrounding 'logoi' have played a critical role in Christianity historical. A separate page would allow for greater and more specific elucidation of the topic. Furthermore, reducing and redirecting Logos and Christianity would all the original intent of this article to be prominent.
I will delete this section, replace it with a brief summary and redirect in five days, unless there is substantial reason not to proceed. DoNNNald 06:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It is asserted without any backing evidence that the common and most accepted Translation of John 1:1 is false. Quotation of a selected few, of thousands of translations is not sufficient evidence for such a claim. I will edit it to show both POVs.
--
Mathaytace
19:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with putting some of -- Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)the translations back, but I want to see that both sides are represented. The last writer, whoever it was, made assertions that are of a minority opinion, with no evidence. -- Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC) Lets leave some of the translations, but insert my more neutral text. Sound fair?
-- Mathaytace 03:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added an explanation of the reason for differing translation. There is no proof of "minority" opinion. I have removed bias adjectives in favor of neutral adjectives.
The text above me is unsigned, and of a different author. The current version is slanted toward the alternate translation. I have removed references to biblical texts concerning the equality/inferiority of Jesus, as they are irrelevant. I cleaned up the language of the Traditional section, removing words that cast unnecessary doubt on the interpretation. The Alternate version of the text is argued for, rather than offered as a possiblility. I have added a neutrality tag for this reason. This is obviously a work in progress.
-- Mathaytace 11:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you Mr. Tweet. I edited the post so that the part in contention gives two short blurbs of equal weight, with no support for either position. The Deeper translation issues really should be addressed in John 1:1 article. Thank you for your clarifying opinion Mr. Tweet.
-- Mathaytace 02:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Mathaytace, before removing large slabs of text, allow some discussion to occur first. I dont agree with this section being summed up in two short blurbs at present. The meaning of this passage underpins major theological debates of what Logos is in terms of the various Christian faiths, so it is not to be glossed over.
I would be happy to see the translations move over to John 1:1 as Jonathan has suggested, and Jesus the Logos and Christology are possibly an appropriate place to discuss the finer details of this subject, but I would expect that the section on this article would be a good summary of those two articles. John Vandenberg 03:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem is, as it stands, the text of the article is biased towards the "a god" translation of the text.
My goal is to remove the bias. -- Mathaytace 12:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Most of the section entitled "Use in Christianity" is entirely off topic and should rather be placed in a section titled, perhaps, "non-Trinitarian views of John 1:1" and probably not in this article at all. This article is "about logos (logoi) in ancient Greek philosophy, mathematics, rhetoric, and Christianity" and not about the Divinity of Christ, which is what the editor of this section is apparently trying to argue here. If discussion of interpretations of John 1:1 belongs a "Use in Christianity" section of this article, then its use in Christianity is what should be discussed and, historically, the Logos has been "use[d by] Christianity" to mean Jesus is one with God. Now, if someone wants to add a section titled something like "Uses of the Word Logos and Interpretation of John 1:1 that most Christians Throughtout History Would Consider Heretical", then fine by me. They can write whole sections on how non-Trinitarian views of John 1:1 were discussed and rejected by the church hundreds of years ago and have continued to be throughout its history. They could also throw in that a belief in the divinity of Christ has historically been considered a prerequesite for calling oneself a Christian.
Also, the statement "Christians who profess belief in the Trinity often consider this to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is the Divine Son of God. Usually in connection with the idea that God and Jesus are equals." is both poor gramar and patently false. It should be, in fact, so obviously false to anyone theologically educated enough to be posting here that it causes one to wonder if it wasn't written to be purposefully misleading to the uninformed. "Christians who prefess belief in the Trinity" do not believe that "God and Jesus are equals," they believe that God and Jesus are one, or, to quote the Nicene Creed, that Jesus is "very God of very God." Jsminch 23:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is very badly written. There are a number of sentence fragments dangling around, there don't appear to be topic sentences at the beginning of paragraphs, placement of the paragraphs themselves seems pretty random; In general, this is difficult reading. Have any of you actually tried to read this section beginning to end recently? Some examples:
There are more (probably many more) problems than these. I stopped reading because it was making my brain hurt. Generally speaking, this whole section feels way too long to be on topic, and way too random and technical to be in anyway useful. Couldn't you just say that there are translation details pertaining to the use of this word that are significant to christians, broadly explain the significance and point interested parties to another page with more information? And if you take me up on that recommendation, perhaps you should proof-read the new page?
See Entry #5 on John 1:1 for in depth discussion of possible translation options for John 1:1. Fwnid 17:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The part about Justin Martyr uses some of his words about seeing Jesus as an "angel" "in second place to God," but it leaves the impression Martyr considered Jesus/Logos as a separate lesser created being, which doesn't jibe with the writings of Martyr about Logos and holy spirit, which he gave as in the third position, I have below (I've never edited before--sorry about the formatting): Justin Martyr, in "First Apology," chap.63, interpreted Jesus to be the theophany (God appearing as an angel)--the angel of the Lord who appeared to Moses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophany http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/justin.html
"We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was." ("Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew," chap.61) "Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of
the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." ("The First Apology of Justin," chap.13)
"But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who
follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." ("First Apology," 6)
"Worship God alone." "Whence to God alone we render worship." ("First Apology," 16 and 17)-- Glen1ster ( talk) 02:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Queston: The entry currently says the concept of logos spermatikos is NOT related to use of the word logos in the Gospel of John. I think that must need some clarification, and I can't understand how that can be true. The way John uses logos is to claim that Jesus is the generating principle and order of the universe. Isn't that the same usage as logos spermatikos? If not, then what is the difference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.237.4.41 ( talk) 14:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I removed the bold part of this sentence: "In English, logos is the root of " logic," and of the " -logy" suffix (e.g., geology)"
The reference used to support both claims is http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O27-logy.html Oxford Dictionary definition and while thi supports the later's origin it does not support the former's origin. The link to Wikitionary in the first para for logos goes to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82 which gives the etymology as "I say" whereas for Logic the Wikitionary in the first para goes to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE ehre the definition is uncountable. These are two alliterative words with different definitions. 87.194.131.188 ( talk) 23:42, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
There is some confusion in the etymology in the article.
(in greek: λόγος) derives from the greek λέγειν (léghein) which means "to bind" or "to relate" or "to hold together", "to make order" as the italian/latin “legare” for example (the root indeed is Indo-European). It could also intended as “to sort” or better "to categorize" as computational process. The meaning “word” is a consequence of this. The others means are subsequent. Sorry for english — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.74.24 ( talk) 08:56, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
This would imply all parts of the mind, not just the mathematical function of the executive function (which is actually rather weak compared so, say, the oldest calculating machines -- sorry, human robots!) Rationality is a Latin invention possibly to describe "business logic," which is notoriously devoid of any kind of moral logic, or emotional intelligence (the center part of the brain where rationalists are typically missing mirror cells). From this "deduction," I think the best future for this page is blanking.-- John Bessa ( talk) 15:54, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
The quote about the Stoics' use of Logos Spermatikos cited here conflicts with Vivien Law's account of their use of Logos in The History of Linguistics in Europe From Plato to 1600, Cambridge University Press, 2003, pp 38-42. Not only does she not mention Logos spermatikos, she notes that we have no primary sources for the Stoics' views on language and the secondary sources are questionable. Her view is that the stoics departed from the Aristotelian model of Onoma-Rhema-Logos and saw it simply as 'meaningful sound', a subset of 'lexis' (writable sound) which, in turn, she says they saw as a subset of 'phone' (all sounds). As it stands, therefore, the article is biased. 109.145.194.227 ( talk) 18:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
In the intro: "In English, the word is the root of "log" (as in record)"
I can't find any reference for this. Every reference for log gives Middle English logge (wood cut from tree) as its root and the use as record derives from a log used to measure the speed of a vessel and the logbook recording these measures. Barring a proper reference, I think this phrase is fanciful and should be removed from the article. Michael Daly 21:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
In the entire section after Philo, not limiting to the Christian or Neo-Platonic "demiurge" general meaning, there is a clear explanation for the difference between "God the Cause" and "Logos the Creator" - and it answers the John 1 conundrum as well. I cannot write this up as it is dependent upon research in dimensionality that I am just now publishing, moving from abandoned sites to 49Miracles.com, which is believe it or not, a commercial philosophy site. So the simple explanation is that the Logos is a later manifestation of causation within a layered Quantum Dimensionality. And I can even get very specific about the Logos, that it would represent the manifestation of the quantum entanglement caused by the presence of literally words. Though slightly indefinite about God, who is ultimately the time-transcendent bridge between future-present-past, hence is the source of teleological purpose, which the Logos must carry out, in the form of continuous Time Paradox. By this interpretation, Paradox is a manifestation of a combination of Schrodinger's Cat and the Conservation law of Thermodynamics, generalized into an interwoven (not literal) parallel universe system, based on interaction of creative threads. Anyway, I hope you are entertained, and if you have any q's, a's, or doubts in the equation -- hook me up. P.S. I reserve the right to claim this as an original interpretation - credit where credit is due, as it is the conclusion of more than a decade of specialized work (author name Ion-Christopher.) Many Thanks. Xgenei ( talk) 05:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
I believe in the above, stating that Logos = Ratio (reason or purpose). I think that in John Logos means reason or purpose.
Sections from the main article with what I think they should say:
"In the beginning was the purpose [Logos], and the purpose [Logos] was with God, and the purpose [Logos] was God." (KJV with logos translated to purpose). Perhaps in our English the last clause should be “and the purpose was God's”.
From main article: "John turns the concept of the Logos on its head when he claimed "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14)."
This quote should be:
"the purpose [Logos] became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14).
I think this makes sense. That is that God had purposed to have the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (v.14) from the beginning (v.2). And that God had this purpose with the earth (the reason the earth was created) with Him at all times (v.1) (Not that the Lord Jesus Christ pre-existed with God the Father). And that this was God the Fathers purpose (v.1).
I know some religions believe that this is what John means in his writing. Should this go into the main article?
Perhaps this goes deeper than this. This might be referring to God's purpose to have us all as sons and daughters of God and for God to be our Father (2Cr 6:18), which is possible through the Lord Jesus Christ.
The article says, "By the time of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, logos was the term used to describe the faculty of human reason...." This contradicts the judgment of at least two great scholars of ancient Greek: James Adam (The Republic of Plato, 2nd edition by D.A. Rees, vol. 2, p. 70) and John Burnet (Plato's Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito, p. 188). (In support of his claim that logos "is not the faculty of reason", Adam cites an article titled "Vernunft" ("Reason") by Friedrich Schleiermacher.) According to Adam and Burnet, logos in Plato always means speech, statement, argument, account, explanation, principle, rule. Isokrates 00:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Ugh. that title-thing I just wrote could give a person hives.
This is what I am trying to get at, however. We (at least most of us, in the Western world--by philosophical reckoning--from about 1850 until the later 1900s, or even now) have been steeped in the tradition of language as representative and correlational. This refers to the way we have tended to see words as "only" words which are separate from, and independent of, the "real" concepts, ideas or things to which they point.
Many postmoderns (or pick your favorite "post-") have followed from the work of folks such as Derrida, in suggesting that there is nothing "mere" about language; that it is at least as much a component of what we know as "reality" than are other "things".
This is important because it brings new light into what has been a problematic text: "In the beginning was the Word (logos). . ." Many theologians have worked around this mystery (how can God be "word") by expanding the meaning of "word" or by moving it into some arena of particular meaning. To many this has been unsatisfactory; it is difficult to comprehend why these few verses would be delivered in a voice so very different from the rest of the book of John.
But what if we were to accept the possibility that the Scriptures were inspired? What if they were written/revised/spoken/rewritten so that they had meaning for the present audience, but also would speak to readers from different times and places? This is not such a large step to take if one accepts, as has the majority of the Christian Church from the beginning until now, that there is a God and that this God is omniscient and not bound by time.
Wittgenstein in particular might be illuminating. Here is a paragraph from the Wikipedia article: __start quote___ On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise, on this account, when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment, where all the familiar and necessary landmarks have been deliberately removed. Removed for what appear to be sound philosophical reasons, but which are, for Wittgenstein, the very source of the problem. Wittgenstein describes this metaphysical environment as like being on frictionless ice; where the conditions are apparently perfect for a philosophically and logically perfect language (the language of the Tractatus), where all philosophical problems can be solved without the confusing and muddying effects of everyday contexts; but where, just because of the lack of friction, language can in fact do no actual work at all. There is much talk in the Investigations, then, of “idle wheels” and language being “on holiday” or a mere "ornament", all of which are used to express the idea of what is lacking in philosophical contexts. To resolve the problems encountered there, Wittgenstein argues that philosophers must leave the frictionless ice and return to the “rough ground” of ordinary language in use; that is, philosophers must “bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use.”
_____end quote_____
Especially if we simplify a bit to capture the main thrust, something like "On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise. . .when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment. . .. Wittgenstein argues that . . . philosphers must "bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use."
Now the reference to God as "the Word" assumes a strikingly new tone. This is, by the way, a tone that fits more easily with the rest of John's gospel than does the disembodied theological referent. John, the apostle "whom Jesus loved" gives us a gospel that is more 'human' than the synoptics.
What a way to speak to us about the incarnation--the embodiment of God into human flesh.
I completely understand that this is probably not a meaning that the original hearers (probably speaking Aramaic, not Greek) would grasp in the same way as a postmodern might. Yet if we remember the striking account of Acts 14:
When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they yelled out in the language of Lycaonia, "The gods have turned into humans and have come down to us!" The people then gave Barnabas the name Zeus, and they gave Paul the name Hermes, because he did the talking. The temple of Zeus was near the entrance to the city. Its priest and the crowds wanted to offer a sacrifice to Barnabas and Paul. So the priest brought some bulls and flowers to the city gates. (Acts 14:11-13 Contemporary English Version)
All is to say that the audience witnessing the event, as well as the audience later reading the account after the Gospel of John had been written, would have no problem with the idea that the gods might descend from the heavens and walk around, interacting with ordinary people. Note that the priests of the temple of Zeus apparently believed it.
So if it makes sense to frame "Logos" as "the Word" (rather than as logic or concept or ...) in both the original and present situations, perhaps we don't need to work so hard at bringing in an enlightenment-era account. Though it certainly would not have been heard the same way by a First Century and Twentieth Century audience, the word works in both cases.
I realize that this is not the place for new theories or speculations. However, I would be completely surprised if this were new--I believe it likely that this point has been covered by theologians of the last few decades.
I include it because the things that were included (Tao, mathematics, etc.) seemed way farther afield than a reading of the text with rather ordinary meanings. And it just might be that Wittgenstein understood this, though I have not run across any Wittgensteinian theology. After all, he was known as "the Gospel man" for handing out copies in the war.
Also, I do understand this is much longer than usual, but it is a rather complex idea. It is because of this that I thought it better to post here than directly to the article. This isn't a campaign, I don't have much at stake whether it gets included or not. It does, however, seem to me to meet the basic criteria for a reasoned argument, and seems much more plausible than many. . .
Roy 04:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
If one reads the initial definition of the term on this page, "Logos" has already been surrendered to semiology on this page. I came here in hopes of introducing the concept of classical "Logos" as it is opposed to "Chaos" that preceded it in the Greek cosmological sense. One does not have to subscribe to this idea to preserve it, yet the definition offered to any casual Wiki reader reduces "Logos" to a mere facet of linguistics.
Sad, really. If one wants to understand modern linguistics, one has to have the idea of "western" start somewhere - Logos is a good place. If one wants to put forward Derrida's idea of "false binary oppositions" being endemic to western thinking, it would be helpful to understand "logos" vs. "chaos" unmolested by reductionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.221.147 ( talk) 22:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I analyzed the Logos article for my critique. One question was, "Is each fact referenced with an appropriate, reliable reference?" After going through the article, I would have to say yes, the majority, if not all facts, are referenced with an appropriate and strong reference. Besides checking each fact, another way to prove this is to look at the extensive reference list at the end of the article. Another question is, "Check a few citations. Do the links work? Is there any close paraphrasing or plagiarism in the article?" After looking at some of the facts, as well as clicking and viewing citations associated with them, I conclude that the majority of the links work. Although my review was brief, most of the article did not appear to be plagiarized. Most information was presented in a different, unique matter, and the majority of quotes were very brief. This article on Logos is an example of what an article on Wikipedia should be. Ckid199 ( talk) 05:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Question one is, "Is any information out of date? Is anything missing that could be added?" This page has many sources from a long time ago but in this case that can be okay because the historical context and the accepted history of this has not changed. Along with the older sources, there are many new ones from the past few years. To answer the question, no, the information is not out of date and nothing about the topic seems to be missing. Question two is, "Check a few citations. Do the links work? Is there any close paraphrasing or plagiarism in the article?" I went to the bottom of the page and checked a few of the citations and there links and the ones I clicked on, the links did work. When reading through the article I did not find any close papraphrasing or plagiarism, I assume that it would be remove quickly so that is why I did not find any. Alexdh9 ( talk) 21:37, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm reviewing this article for a WikiEducation assignment. This article seems to use neutral language throughout and includes many solid references. After skimming through a few other comments on this article, I would agree that some of the information in the Christianity section would be more appropriately located in John 1:1, namely, the discussion of different translations in the section "God" or "a god". That being said, I think it is a well-balanced article and I found it very informative. oadugmore ( talk) 23:13, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
In the first paragraph:
"Logos is the logic behind an argument." "Logos tries to persuade an audience using logical arguments and supportive evidence."
The first sentence is especially unhelpful. Something more substantial should be placed here. "Logos is the method, order, and presentation of an argument."
The second one just needs the logical clipped.
And the source is tripod page as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.149.136.201 ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I believe that logos means fraction or ratio in Greek math. That's why logarithms are called logarithms: logos-arithmos = ratio-number. Logarithms can be used to measure ratios, e.g. at a logarithmic axis.
The several meanings of Greek logos and Latin ratio seem to connect nicely. We have logos = ratio = fraction. Since proportions can be expressed as fractions, like two-to-three, 2::3, 2:3 or 2/3, we also have the meaning proportion. Being able to see things in their proper proportions has to do with being sensible, rational, knowing (rhyme and) reason. But rationality deals with that which can be verbalised, hence with words.
In math, rational numbers are numbers that can be written as fractions, describing those proportions the Greeks would call commensurable (actually, that's the latinised word; what's the Greek???), where as irrational numbers are those that cannot be written as fractions, realted to incommensurable proportions (abhorred by the Pythagoreans).
Now, I don't really know this stuff, but if it's not too contrived, someone else can perhaps incorporate some of it into the article. -- Niels Ø 17:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC), rev. -- Niels Ø 07:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
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I came here looking to contrast Logos with Pathos and Ethos. Are these other words mentioned anywhere in the first paragraph? No. In fact it seems to be a bit of a quasi-religious mess; not quite what I was expecting. So off to the talk page I go, where with growing dismay unrolls one of the messiest pedantic bunfights I've ever had the misery to read.
As unbiased encyclopaedists, somewhere in the first paragraph we should insist that this article states: it is considered one of the three modes of persuasion, alongside ethos and pathos. This is self-evident. But I ain't gonna add any such text; it would be reverted within milliseconds by the weird religious or otherwise nit-picking hijackers that have already rendered the opening of what should be a fine article as an almost unintelligible mess.
Yuck. Funny how the pages for Pathos and Ethos seem much more digestible... Blitterbug 08:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blitterbug ( talk • contribs)
I would like to add to this section somewhat: For Heraclitus logos provided the link between rational discourse and the world's rational structure [1].
The total would become:
The rest seems to be an introduction to quotes. I would like to change it to the following:
"This LOGOS holds always but humans always prove unable to understand it, both before hearing it and when they have first heard it. For though all things come to be in accordance with this LOGOS, humans are like the inexperienced when they experience such words and deeds as I set out, distinguishing each in accordance with its nature and saying how it is. But other people fail to notice what they do when awake, just as they forget what they do while asleep. ( Diels-Kranz 22B1)"
"For this reason it is necessary to follow what is common. But although the LOGOS is common, most people live as if they had their own private understanding. ( Diels-Kranz 22B2)"
"Listening not to me but to the LOGOS it is wise to agree that all things are one. ( Diels-Kranz 22B50) [6]"
What does everybody else think?
-- Faust ( talk) 20:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, do you want to drop the quotations? It seems I should not jump in and work on too much at the same time, so my idea was to add just the one line for now. By the way, I noticed I misunderstood your work concerning logos in neoplatonism at your talk page as well, sorry. I will fix it one of these days (this evening, tomorrow, the day after or so). Apologies! -- Faust ( talk) 20:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
"This LOGOS holds always but humans always prove unable to understand it, both before hearing it and when they have first heard it. For though all things come to be in accordance with this LOGOS, humans are like the inexperienced when they experience such words and deeds as I set out, distinguishing each in accordance with its nature and saying how it is. But other people fail to notice what they do when awake, just as they forget what they do while asleep. ( Diels-Kranz 22B1)"
"For this reason it is necessary to follow what is common. But although the LOGOS is common, most people live as if they had their own private understanding. ( Diels-Kranz 22B2)"
"Listening not to me but to the LOGOS it is wise to agree that all things are one. ( Diels-Kranz 22B50) [12]"
Ok, I added what you had with minor touch up. By the way: "Heraclitus stressed that man can not, and will never, understand logos which is always present" was also suggested by Carl Jung! I do not have the exact reference for that now, but Jung suggested that the subconscious would move in ways that would result in what Heraclitus said. Of course, neither has scientific proof for their statements, but would be fun to find the Jung quote and relate the two. Jung was a master of "re-packaging". History2007 ( talk) 08:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
I love what you did with it. By the way: I did mention the Heraclitus quote, but not literally. That seemed immoral to me. I'll leave something on your talk page. Then you can see what you want to do with it. -- Faust ( talk) 08:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Left it at your talk page as you have seen. -- Faust ( talk) 17:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi guys, I think we should consider translating logos as "objective reality". BTW, terrific quotes selection. I spent last few days bitching about most people being utterly incapable of grasping that very concept. And the 3d quote Jesus alluded to a few times... or rather repeated in his own words (given that the objective reality is God): "The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.", John 14:10 Yuri Zavorotny ( talk) 12:59, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
(Please be aware that several refs appear more than once in the following list, due to neglect of the mechanism that in articles usually prevents that.)--
Jerzy•
t
02:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps a linguist or Latin scholar, could confirm Latin lex as a cognate of Greek logos which, if I understand the word correctly, conveys the meaning of law (also principle, rule). Then the same expert could establish the word's relation with Latin ratio which affords two of the meanings of logos mentioned in the introduction, that of reason and proportion. The wikipedia article on Ratio points out this connection between the words ratio and logos which is absent from this article. The essential meanings mentioned in the introduction are reason (in the meaning of lex but also of ratio), reasoned discourse (in the sense of verbum) and proportion (in the sense of ratio). From reason we can derive the meanings of cause, purpose, "natural" law, etc. From reasoned discourse can be derived the meanings of argument and speech. I am less sure about some of the other meanings included, particularly those of "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word". Perhaps some examples could illustrate how these other meanings are also afforded by logos. Logos certainly does not mean "word" in Greek but can be translated into Latin as verbum (discourse), which also has the meaning of "word" in Latin (but not in Greek). However verbum lacks the other meanings better conveyed by lex and ratio. Aristotle uses the word logos primarily with the meaning of reason anywhere where he uses the word casually. I might add somewhat pedantically that the Greek verb referred to in the first line is λέγειν (infinitive) not λέγω (that is only the first person of the present tense in the indicative of the active voice). Skamnelis ( talk) 17:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
This edit by Edunoramus introduced a literal quote from the Purdue Online Writing Lab (an Online Writing Lab at Purdue University) in the second paragraph of the lead. This contravenes multiple policies: WP:UNDUE (where available, Wikipedia uses monographs, journal papers and reference works published by expert scholars, not the creators of writing aid websites: the latter are indeed insignificant), WP:LEAD (the lead summarizes info already in the body of the article), and WP:COPYVIO (we paraphrase what reliable sources say, we do not copy-paste it: literal quotes are only to illustrate something already explained). I don't have time to deal with this now, so I'm hoping some other editor will pick this up. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 14:25, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
I'm delighted that we can have this conversation on the talk page. In fact, I'd like to briefly explain why I think this contribution in the lede of the article is important-- significantly, I think this article lede does not adequately offer a "concise overview of the article's topic" in keeping with [ Manual of Style] If you look at the history of the page and the extensive arguments and reviews that occurred over ten years ago, you will find contributions by me, Edunoramus, and you will see that there has been a very long history by those with enthusiasm and passion for the topic of Logos_(Christianity) controlling the topic of Logos. Quite simply, this is a war over meaning, see also the topic of [ essentially contested concept]. Logos is a term used in rhetoric and philosophy; and, there is a page for Logos in Christianity-- feel free to work this over there. In the meantime, I believe that,(as has been said on the previous talk pages), this entire article needs a revision. We should work on a full page revision immediately; this has gone on too long. Logos needs to connect to rhetoric here, as Logos in Christianity has its own page. BTW-- in terms of the suggestion above pertaining to WP:LEAD (that "the lead summarizes info already in the body of the article", where is it in the body of the article?), and WP:COPYVIO (we could paraphrase, however, this quote is substantive and clear and sets the tone for the changes that need to be made in terms of linking Logos to the broader study of rhetoric, which is not currently even properly summarized in this entry. Edunoramus ( talk) 15:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 02:47, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I am curious about the bot-generated message above suggesting that Logos has been assigned as a 2022 Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, then, it points to a 2016 course. If this, in fact, is managed by a real and active English 110 course at Cal Poly Pomona, then it is important to connect to the correct Wiki_Ed resource. Perhaps, an update of the Wiki_Ed online resource for the course is in the works? Edunoramus ( talk) 23:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Noted: no response, no action on above. Edunoramus ( talk) 17:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
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Recent edits have changed what, for the most part as far as I remember, was correct. I cannot find the previous version that I seem to remember, it was possibly over 2 years ago. I have edited the introduction to agree with the sources of the article because the Perseus article and the wikt link cited were no longer in agreement with the text. The primary meaning of Logos is that of Reason. The other meanings are secondary and some of them ("ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word") do not apply to the use of the word logos in classical antiquity, if at all. They are not in the Perseus source. If anyone knows of examples where the word Logos had those meanings, they can cite them. Skamnelis ( talk) 18:06, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
To advance this conversation a bit more if anyone else is interested in tackling substance over "agenda". The term "logos" is an " Essentially contested concept" that resides at the intersections of fact and metaphysics.
Logos encompasses multifaceted meanings, including reason, logic, discourse, and divine ordering principles. It involves both objective aspects, rooted in rationality and empirical evidence, and subjective elements, intertwined with metaphysical and philosophical considerations.
Daniel Kahneman's work on cognitive biases reveals the challenges of resolving the concept of "logos" as individuals' subjective biases and cognitive processes can influence their interpretations of facts, rationality, and logical reasoning. These biases can hinder objective consensus and contribute to the ongoing debate and contestation surrounding interpreting and understanding the multifaceted concept of "logos."