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"(some would say he was the penultimate, but in effect he was the last ruler)"
Is this relevant/ prudent to an introduction? The Krunk 17:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The predecessor is wrong as might be the successor They call me Mister Tibbs ( talk) 12:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that James III would have been surprised by the claim that Henry VII was king of all Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.53.171 ( talk) 21:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Welsh version says: "Heddiw, mae yna Gwobr Goffa'r Tywysog Llywelyn ap Gruddydd Prifysgol Cymru i'r traethawd gorau ar gyfer y radd o MPhil neu PhD." What does this mean?
I've moved this back from Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf ap Gruffydd, after Seancdaug moved it there, in accordance with the Manual of Style. — OwenBlacker 11:36, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
According to the Wiki standard for articles on rulers, I would have thought that something like Llywelyn III of Gwynedd or Llywelyn II of Wales would be more appropriate for this article. Siswrn 21:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, but Wikipedia has a convention that sometimes goes against common usage. For example, look at the discussion on 'Mary I of Scotland', who is usually referred to as 'Mary Queen of Scots'. Siswrn 22:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It's my understanding that "Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf" translates to "Llywelyn, our last prince" as opposed to "last leader". Just a minor point though. Tswsl1989 07:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Llywellyn & his wife (Queen?) were known as the Lord & Lady of Snowdon. By whom? I'm assuming at this time the mountain was largely referred to by its Welsh/ Britonic name 'yr Wyddfa'? Snowdon being a Saxon name for the mountain. C Williams - Llantrisant 217.134.255.99 ( talk) 00:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
There are several assertions that seem a little POV, or at least are written in somewhat of a loose style: "Edward took particular delight in ...", "With equal deliberateness ...", "the most precious religious relic in Gwynedd ...", "Edward was thereby appropriating the historical and religious regalia of the house of Gwynedd and placarding to the world the extinction of its dynasty and the annexation of the principality to his Crown." (certainly not NPOV, very loose, also "placarding" seems overly trite and probably not true, certainly not "extinction of its dynasty" the next para mentions Rhodri for example).
"ended their lives in captivity" sounds like they all committed suicide, assuming that not to be the case perhaps "remained imprisoned until their deaths", some citations are needed on who the relatives are and where they were held captive if this assertion is to remain. The following para goes on to mention all the relatives (apart from Dafydds sons) who remained free and the manner of their deaths (not in captivity) so this seems internally contradictory.
That last sentence is weasely, two uses of "may". Pbhj ( talk) 00:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
A minor point, but surely needs correcting on the 1247 divisions Map is 'Yr Perfeddwlad'. This should read 'Y Berfeddwlad'. See: http://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Berfeddwlad
Llywelyn2000 ( talk) 22:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The article gives Llywelyn's mother as Senena ferch Rhodri, but Sir John Wynn's History of the Gwydir family names her as the daughter of Caradog ap Thomas. Anyone got any ideas?
It is interesting to conclude that he was trying to escape when he left the tower through the window. This is probably just a lie, implying that he was incompetent or an idiot. In reality, he jumped to his death, so that Wales would not have an imprisoned leader, and so another leader could take his place. Most English kings would not have the patriotism to kill themselves for the good of the nation. It is disappointing to hear lies about the dead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.182.165.34 ( talk) 17:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
User:Iamamazing77 yesterday moved the page from Llywelyn the Last to Llywelyn ap Gruffyd, but an admin., at my request, has moved it back to Llywelyn the Last. The reason is per WP:COMMONNAME, Google Books search shows that Llywelyn the Last is more common than Llywelyn ap Gruffyd. DeCausa ( talk) 09:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Maybe so, and I note that Britannica also uses L ap G. But just one note of caution, I notice that among those Google results there are other Llywelyns ap Gruffudd eg Llywelyn Bren, albeit a minority. The Welsh patronymic format tends to result in historical names that are often not terribly distinctive, especially to the general reader: the advantage of the current article title is there's absolutely no doubt who it's about. But if you think it is important to move it on the basis of the new search, I don't feel strongly enough about it to object. DeCausa ( talk) 08:37, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
One other thing I forgot to say, just to be clear. The conclusion that I put in my original post from 2013 wasn't "mistaken". That was purely about the page move that had been made at that time: it concerned a comparison of those two names only, and was clearly correct. DeCausa ( talk) 09:54, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, based on the Google results we would go with "Llywelyn the Last" before "ap Gruffydd". It seems the least used of the three top possibilities. DeCausa ( talk) 21:02, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
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I read the discussions "Page name" (2004) and "Article name/page move" (20013-2014). Based on the comments it seems Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is the most common name for the king. Daicaregos mentioned that "contemporary historians tend to use Gruffudd" which include John Koch, Beverley Smith, R. R. Davies and Gwynfor Evans. However, this article starts with "Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (c. 1223 – 11 December 1282), sometimes written as Llywelyn ap Gruffudd" and it's entitled Llywelyn ap Gruffudd so that doesn't make any sense to me. If Gruffudd is the standard then the introduction in the text should reverse the names and say "Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (c. 1223 – 11 December 1282), sometimes written as Llywelyn ap Gruffydd".
ICE77 ( talk) 05:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
As there is no discussion here that indicates the current infobox image choice represents a group consensus, I have been bold and replaced it, moving the one that was there farther down the article. My reasoning is two-fold. First, the image itself is not the best representation of the statue - the angle from which the photo is taken gives an odd view looking up the man's nose, and the angled backlighting causes some unnatural shadow-and-light effects that highlight his knee and the back of his neck, while making the head at the bottom look like the Star Trek characters with their faces half-white and half-black. Second, there has been a longstanding preference on historical pages to use contemporary or near-contemporary representations in the infobox, while putting modern depictions farther down the article (see William the Conqueror, Alfred the Great & Urraca of León as just three of many examples), unless none exists or the modern representation is particularly iconic, neither of which is the case in this instance. Agricolae ( talk) 19:08, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
I deleted a sentence about Catherine the illegitimate daughter of Llywelyn, as per conversation- Talk:Gwenllian of Wales, from this source (page 51). The story goes whilst genealogists made a family tree for Owain Glyndwr, some fabricated his genealogy to make him a descendant of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, but this was a mistake, as he was actually a descendant of Llywelyn the Great... Supposedly, and I believe the outcome is correct, Catherine is a fabrication/misunderstanding about the descendants of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. If someone thinks otherwise, please talk. Cltjames ( talk) 16:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
The info box and table have him as prince from 1246 but this date doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text (there's a citation, 7). The introductory text instead uses 1258, which seems to be about his use of the term? It seems like 1246 should be mentioned somewhere, possibly replacing 1258 in the intro, but I know nothing of the topic. Tomcrocker ( talk) 20:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 11, 2004, December 11, 2005, December 11, 2006, and December 11, 2007. |
"(some would say he was the penultimate, but in effect he was the last ruler)"
Is this relevant/ prudent to an introduction? The Krunk 17:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The predecessor is wrong as might be the successor They call me Mister Tibbs ( talk) 12:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that James III would have been surprised by the claim that Henry VII was king of all Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.53.171 ( talk) 21:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Welsh version says: "Heddiw, mae yna Gwobr Goffa'r Tywysog Llywelyn ap Gruddydd Prifysgol Cymru i'r traethawd gorau ar gyfer y radd o MPhil neu PhD." What does this mean?
I've moved this back from Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf ap Gruffydd, after Seancdaug moved it there, in accordance with the Manual of Style. — OwenBlacker 11:36, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
According to the Wiki standard for articles on rulers, I would have thought that something like Llywelyn III of Gwynedd or Llywelyn II of Wales would be more appropriate for this article. Siswrn 21:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, but Wikipedia has a convention that sometimes goes against common usage. For example, look at the discussion on 'Mary I of Scotland', who is usually referred to as 'Mary Queen of Scots'. Siswrn 22:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It's my understanding that "Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf" translates to "Llywelyn, our last prince" as opposed to "last leader". Just a minor point though. Tswsl1989 07:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Llywellyn & his wife (Queen?) were known as the Lord & Lady of Snowdon. By whom? I'm assuming at this time the mountain was largely referred to by its Welsh/ Britonic name 'yr Wyddfa'? Snowdon being a Saxon name for the mountain. C Williams - Llantrisant 217.134.255.99 ( talk) 00:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
There are several assertions that seem a little POV, or at least are written in somewhat of a loose style: "Edward took particular delight in ...", "With equal deliberateness ...", "the most precious religious relic in Gwynedd ...", "Edward was thereby appropriating the historical and religious regalia of the house of Gwynedd and placarding to the world the extinction of its dynasty and the annexation of the principality to his Crown." (certainly not NPOV, very loose, also "placarding" seems overly trite and probably not true, certainly not "extinction of its dynasty" the next para mentions Rhodri for example).
"ended their lives in captivity" sounds like they all committed suicide, assuming that not to be the case perhaps "remained imprisoned until their deaths", some citations are needed on who the relatives are and where they were held captive if this assertion is to remain. The following para goes on to mention all the relatives (apart from Dafydds sons) who remained free and the manner of their deaths (not in captivity) so this seems internally contradictory.
That last sentence is weasely, two uses of "may". Pbhj ( talk) 00:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
A minor point, but surely needs correcting on the 1247 divisions Map is 'Yr Perfeddwlad'. This should read 'Y Berfeddwlad'. See: http://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Berfeddwlad
Llywelyn2000 ( talk) 22:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The article gives Llywelyn's mother as Senena ferch Rhodri, but Sir John Wynn's History of the Gwydir family names her as the daughter of Caradog ap Thomas. Anyone got any ideas?
It is interesting to conclude that he was trying to escape when he left the tower through the window. This is probably just a lie, implying that he was incompetent or an idiot. In reality, he jumped to his death, so that Wales would not have an imprisoned leader, and so another leader could take his place. Most English kings would not have the patriotism to kill themselves for the good of the nation. It is disappointing to hear lies about the dead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.182.165.34 ( talk) 17:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
User:Iamamazing77 yesterday moved the page from Llywelyn the Last to Llywelyn ap Gruffyd, but an admin., at my request, has moved it back to Llywelyn the Last. The reason is per WP:COMMONNAME, Google Books search shows that Llywelyn the Last is more common than Llywelyn ap Gruffyd. DeCausa ( talk) 09:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Maybe so, and I note that Britannica also uses L ap G. But just one note of caution, I notice that among those Google results there are other Llywelyns ap Gruffudd eg Llywelyn Bren, albeit a minority. The Welsh patronymic format tends to result in historical names that are often not terribly distinctive, especially to the general reader: the advantage of the current article title is there's absolutely no doubt who it's about. But if you think it is important to move it on the basis of the new search, I don't feel strongly enough about it to object. DeCausa ( talk) 08:37, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
One other thing I forgot to say, just to be clear. The conclusion that I put in my original post from 2013 wasn't "mistaken". That was purely about the page move that had been made at that time: it concerned a comparison of those two names only, and was clearly correct. DeCausa ( talk) 09:54, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, based on the Google results we would go with "Llywelyn the Last" before "ap Gruffydd". It seems the least used of the three top possibilities. DeCausa ( talk) 21:02, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:02, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I read the discussions "Page name" (2004) and "Article name/page move" (20013-2014). Based on the comments it seems Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is the most common name for the king. Daicaregos mentioned that "contemporary historians tend to use Gruffudd" which include John Koch, Beverley Smith, R. R. Davies and Gwynfor Evans. However, this article starts with "Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (c. 1223 – 11 December 1282), sometimes written as Llywelyn ap Gruffudd" and it's entitled Llywelyn ap Gruffudd so that doesn't make any sense to me. If Gruffudd is the standard then the introduction in the text should reverse the names and say "Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (c. 1223 – 11 December 1282), sometimes written as Llywelyn ap Gruffydd".
ICE77 ( talk) 05:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
As there is no discussion here that indicates the current infobox image choice represents a group consensus, I have been bold and replaced it, moving the one that was there farther down the article. My reasoning is two-fold. First, the image itself is not the best representation of the statue - the angle from which the photo is taken gives an odd view looking up the man's nose, and the angled backlighting causes some unnatural shadow-and-light effects that highlight his knee and the back of his neck, while making the head at the bottom look like the Star Trek characters with their faces half-white and half-black. Second, there has been a longstanding preference on historical pages to use contemporary or near-contemporary representations in the infobox, while putting modern depictions farther down the article (see William the Conqueror, Alfred the Great & Urraca of León as just three of many examples), unless none exists or the modern representation is particularly iconic, neither of which is the case in this instance. Agricolae ( talk) 19:08, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:07, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
I deleted a sentence about Catherine the illegitimate daughter of Llywelyn, as per conversation- Talk:Gwenllian of Wales, from this source (page 51). The story goes whilst genealogists made a family tree for Owain Glyndwr, some fabricated his genealogy to make him a descendant of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, but this was a mistake, as he was actually a descendant of Llywelyn the Great... Supposedly, and I believe the outcome is correct, Catherine is a fabrication/misunderstanding about the descendants of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. If someone thinks otherwise, please talk. Cltjames ( talk) 16:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
The info box and table have him as prince from 1246 but this date doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text (there's a citation, 7). The introductory text instead uses 1258, which seems to be about his use of the term? It seems like 1246 should be mentioned somewhere, possibly replacing 1258 in the intro, but I know nothing of the topic. Tomcrocker ( talk) 20:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)