This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Llywelyn ab Iorwerth article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Llywelyn ab Iorwerth is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | On 25 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Llywelyn the Great to Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I've moved this back from Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth, after Seancdaug moved it there, in accordance with the Manual of Style. — OwenBlacker 11:42, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
It would be nice if someone could add a pronounciation guide for Llywelyn. Ahassan05 12:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)ahassan05 Llyw-el-yn rhymes with "Dew"-"tell"-"in" with the LL st the start proniunced by putting tongue at top of mouth and sort of breathing in.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.149.18 ( talk) 17:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's a quick list of works that could be used to bring the literature more up-to-date:
Lampman ( talk) 11:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
If anyone has a source for this individual, please cite it. Lloyd and Turvey (the former the father of modern Welsh historiography and the latter Llywelyn's most recent biographer) make no mention of her, Pryce doesn't mention her in Acts of Welsh Rulers 1120-1283 (Univ. Wales Press, 2005), and she is not even in the comprehensive late medieval and early modern genealogies listed in Bartrum (Cardiff, 1973). (Even Tegwared ferch Llywelyn is listed there!) A note appended to her biographical entry mentioned that she was confused with Elen, but the only refs I've ever found to her are in fiction. Ynyrhesolaf ( talk) 00:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
There is a stone head carving listed under External Links. The listing says the head is now thought to be a carving of Henry III. I followed the link to the Gathering the Jewels website. It still says the carving is thought to be a likeness of Llywelyn the Great. If the person that added this statement about Henry III has another source for the identification of the individual, they should add where they got that information. Apparently the Gathering the Jewels website still feels its Llywelyn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninanta ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Llywelyn the Great. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:30, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Gwenllian is listed under issue. However, there seems to be no reference to her anywhere. Have we got the wrong Llywelyn? Is this not Gwenllian of Wales (i.e. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, this Llywelyn being Llywelyn ap Gruffudd)? Hogyn Lleol ( talk) 18:48, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
After conducting research, I am asking the question whether 'Llywelyn the Great' was called Llywelyn Fawr, and not his adversary Llywelyn the Elder ap Maredudd ap Cynan ab Owain Gwynedd, the Elder. I've done research on the Dictionary of Welsh biography, Dictionary of National Biography, and online searches and all the evidence I've found so far points to two different people, and how Llywelyn the Elder is actually Fawr and not the one mentioned in this article (The Great). I would like to conclude in asking a consensus to change the 'Fawr' from this article to include simply 'Llywelyn I' or the Great, and for Llywelyn ap Maredudd to gain the title 'Fawr' as is written in the history books, and to ask administration to change the articles names to include the correct sourced names. Cltjames ( talk) 02:50, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. The work done by both User:A.D.Hope and User:Ham II demonstrates that – after the ab/ap typo (it's ab because "I" is a vowel in Welsh, basically) is resolved – the COMMONNAME is the Welsh form. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre ( talk) 22:50, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Llywelyn the Great → Llywelyn ab Iorwerth – I believe that 'Llywelyn ab Iorwerth' is the name more commonly used in academia, by heritage bodies such as Cadw, and in the wider media. I am not certain about this, and the purpose of this discussion is as much to see where the land lies as to make a change to the article title. A.D.Hope ( talk) 17:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
edited 08:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC) to create 'Opinions' and 'Discussion' sections and place appropriate comments into them. Previous version.
@ A.D.Hope: You've misread some of your links at the beginning of this section; the Cadw, Dictionary of Welsh Biography, BBC Bitesize, Bryan O'Neil and Britannica links use "ap Iorwerth" (or "Ap Iorwerth" in Britannica's case), not "ab Iorwerth"! So that variation needs to be considered. It seems to rank highest of all the likely options in an Ngram from 1994 to 2018, before dipping sharply to third place in 2019, the final year of the sample. An Ngram for Llywelyn ab Iorwerth+Llywelyn ap Iorwerth against Llywelyn Fawr+Llywelyn the Great shows the variations with the patronymic in the lead after 1980. Ham II ( talk) 20:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Llywelyn ab Iorwerth article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Llywelyn ab Iorwerth is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | On 25 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Llywelyn the Great to Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I've moved this back from Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth, after Seancdaug moved it there, in accordance with the Manual of Style. — OwenBlacker 11:42, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
It would be nice if someone could add a pronounciation guide for Llywelyn. Ahassan05 12:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)ahassan05 Llyw-el-yn rhymes with "Dew"-"tell"-"in" with the LL st the start proniunced by putting tongue at top of mouth and sort of breathing in.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.149.18 ( talk) 17:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Here's a quick list of works that could be used to bring the literature more up-to-date:
Lampman ( talk) 11:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
If anyone has a source for this individual, please cite it. Lloyd and Turvey (the former the father of modern Welsh historiography and the latter Llywelyn's most recent biographer) make no mention of her, Pryce doesn't mention her in Acts of Welsh Rulers 1120-1283 (Univ. Wales Press, 2005), and she is not even in the comprehensive late medieval and early modern genealogies listed in Bartrum (Cardiff, 1973). (Even Tegwared ferch Llywelyn is listed there!) A note appended to her biographical entry mentioned that she was confused with Elen, but the only refs I've ever found to her are in fiction. Ynyrhesolaf ( talk) 00:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
There is a stone head carving listed under External Links. The listing says the head is now thought to be a carving of Henry III. I followed the link to the Gathering the Jewels website. It still says the carving is thought to be a likeness of Llywelyn the Great. If the person that added this statement about Henry III has another source for the identification of the individual, they should add where they got that information. Apparently the Gathering the Jewels website still feels its Llywelyn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninanta ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Llywelyn the Great. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:30, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Gwenllian is listed under issue. However, there seems to be no reference to her anywhere. Have we got the wrong Llywelyn? Is this not Gwenllian of Wales (i.e. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, this Llywelyn being Llywelyn ap Gruffudd)? Hogyn Lleol ( talk) 18:48, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
After conducting research, I am asking the question whether 'Llywelyn the Great' was called Llywelyn Fawr, and not his adversary Llywelyn the Elder ap Maredudd ap Cynan ab Owain Gwynedd, the Elder. I've done research on the Dictionary of Welsh biography, Dictionary of National Biography, and online searches and all the evidence I've found so far points to two different people, and how Llywelyn the Elder is actually Fawr and not the one mentioned in this article (The Great). I would like to conclude in asking a consensus to change the 'Fawr' from this article to include simply 'Llywelyn I' or the Great, and for Llywelyn ap Maredudd to gain the title 'Fawr' as is written in the history books, and to ask administration to change the articles names to include the correct sourced names. Cltjames ( talk) 02:50, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. The work done by both User:A.D.Hope and User:Ham II demonstrates that – after the ab/ap typo (it's ab because "I" is a vowel in Welsh, basically) is resolved – the COMMONNAME is the Welsh form. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre ( talk) 22:50, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Llywelyn the Great → Llywelyn ab Iorwerth – I believe that 'Llywelyn ab Iorwerth' is the name more commonly used in academia, by heritage bodies such as Cadw, and in the wider media. I am not certain about this, and the purpose of this discussion is as much to see where the land lies as to make a change to the article title. A.D.Hope ( talk) 17:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
edited 08:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC) to create 'Opinions' and 'Discussion' sections and place appropriate comments into them. Previous version.
@ A.D.Hope: You've misread some of your links at the beginning of this section; the Cadw, Dictionary of Welsh Biography, BBC Bitesize, Bryan O'Neil and Britannica links use "ap Iorwerth" (or "Ap Iorwerth" in Britannica's case), not "ab Iorwerth"! So that variation needs to be considered. It seems to rank highest of all the likely options in an Ngram from 1994 to 2018, before dipping sharply to third place in 2019, the final year of the sample. An Ngram for Llywelyn ab Iorwerth+Llywelyn ap Iorwerth against Llywelyn Fawr+Llywelyn the Great shows the variations with the patronymic in the lead after 1980. Ham II ( talk) 20:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)