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This is not written like an encyclopedic article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.22.30 ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 10 November 2007
Since the article was moved from "Livingston College" to "Livingston Campus" (which was a perfectly fine and sensible thing to do) the article should be split. One should be a historic article about the founding of the college, its history, and alumni. The other should be about the physical campus itself. There of course would be links between the two, but the two topics don't really meld that well in a single article as they represent two entirely different things: an academic organization, and a physical place. Njsustain ( talk) 15:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
While the original army camp was named for Joyce Kilmer, and the campus took the name of the army camp, the library in turn took its name from the campus, not directly from Joyce Kilmer. If the library were named for Joyce Kilmer, it would be called the "Joyce Kilmer Library," but it is not. It might be nice, but it is not. Joyce Kilmer never actually graduated from Rutgers, though he did attend the school for a time, so it wouldn't really be in keeping with tradition to name a university building for someone who is neither an alumus nor a benefactor, nor a famous faculty member, administrator, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Njsustain ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
An interesting exception is Lucy Stone Hall. From RU: "Named after Lucy Stone, the founder of the New Jersey Woman's Suffrage Association. Born in Massachusetts in 1818; died in Massachusetts in 1893; graduate of Oberlin College; married to HB Blackwell in 1855; lived in NJ for 12 yrs; founded NJ Women's Suffrage Assoc. in 1867; engaged in frequent protests against the discriminatory laws and practices of that era. Source: Catalogue of Building and Place Names at Rutgers." Brianlowy ( talk) 17:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The changes today were varied and odd. The info about the college "becoming" a campus is incorrect. These two concepts are two completely different and separate issues. There can be a campus, a college, both, or neither... they are not mutually exclusive nor inclusive terms. The street naming issue may be correct, but needs to be added to the existing info, not replace it, since it has no references either. The info about the consolidation of colleges is both myopic and beyond the scope of the article... it involved only some of the schools of the university, and the associated discussion was not relevant. As for "the Rock"... I have no idea where that came from... this was never an official designation of the campus and I've never even heard of it in my 32 years here. Anyway, these changes were basically just random and not really all that well written, and completely unsourced. If there are any parts you would like to still include, please discuss here first then the appropriate info can be added in. Njsustain ( talk) 22:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
BRIAN RESPONDS: There is virtually nothing sourced in this article. In fact it is a horrible article that needs major revisions. There is more I am going to add when I have the time. Most of the history of Livingston is oral history. There is an interesting article written in 1980 by Professor Irving Louis Horowitz about the opening of the college.
Let me try to address your concerns:
(1) There are three stages of Livingston College: (1) Development and Opening (e.g., unique courses, interdisciplinary courses, new Depts [e.g., Journalism, Women Studies, Urban Studies], 1st gen students, faculty in the Quads); (2) Transition (e.g., end of interdisciplinary courses, end of pass/fair and intro of D grade); and (3) Centralization (end of the college faculty and courses, development of a few LC courses). In 2007, the college ended and now where a college was is a campus. The article on Livingston College should be separated from the article on Livingston Campus.
(2) The naming of the streets is correct because I was one of the students who attempted to get the street names changed.
(3) Centralization. Centralization took place in 1982. The five colleges in New Brunswick lost their faculty and their courses expect for some fellows and a few courses. When Centralization (the modified Wheeler Plan) was proposed and passed there was discussion of closing the colleges--that was a major concern. There were faculty and students who stated at the time that it was a matter of time before RU shut down the colleges. Any piece on LC without a discussion of centralization is missing a major part of its history. Just look at the Medium.
(4) The Rock--that was an unofficial name of the campus. If you have been there fore 32 years, I can't imagine how you never hear it. I will be eventually putting in the nicknames for the individual quads.
BTW, if you have been there for 32 years, I am sure we have met each other somewhere. Brianlowy ( talk) 17:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianlowy ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Brian, I'm not going to argue with you about who is right and who is wrong. If you don't have verifiable sources, anything you change is going to be deleted. I've worked a long time on this article, and if you don't approve of things because there aren't sourced, that's fine, but be aware that unsourced info can and will be deleted. If you can't work cooperatively with other writers and can't admit that people may know additional or more things than you do, then you have to follow the exact rules... and that is that anything unsourced will be deleted. Njsustain ( talk) 18:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Sadly, I don't know your name unless it is NJsustain (though I doubt it). You have no sources whatsoever in your piece, so it is just as valid as mine. Where are your verifiable sources??? It is not your article. I don't care how long you have worked on this article, you do not have ownership of it. How can you have an article about the rock and not mention its first dean, interdisciplinary studies (unusual at the time), the purpose of the college, etc???
We can go back and forth. What is your source of knowledge? Look, if you would like I can simply start tagging this article with every Wikipedia violation and eventually it will disappear or we can find a compromise. Your choice. Brianlowy ( talk) 18:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
This was a nice little article, and someone had to come in and decide it was his way or the highway. He couldn't add his perspective... he had to get rid of everyone else's perspective, then screams when people disagree with him, yet still won't cite any sources. He won't follow the etiquette nor the rules of Wikipedia.
Sadly, a fitting legacy to Livingston College. Njsustain ( talk)
COMMENT FROM A 82 LC GRAD: A few weeks ago we has an alumni event with some professors talking about the history of Livingston. This page came up and it was NOT viewed positively. I was seen as bias against Livingston and a joke. So I decided to look at it. It is a joke. It needs lots of work. You get no sense of what Livingston was like. Livingston was colorful--this page is bland. So much is missing. The tone is blah.
It appears he knows the rules here because he got you on the revert x 2 rule. One more revert by you and you would not be able to edit for 24 hours.
Wikipedia is all about edited it. He edited, you edited.
You use the word "people" but for the past 6 months you two are the only ones who edited. I am going to try to get other alums to edit this page and hopefully we can get a good page that is worthy. The problem is that there are no sources, You didn't use them, Brian didn't use them, I don't have them. How do we verify students trying to get academic credit for having sex? Yet we knew about that and even Professor Schocket mentioned that a few weeks ago when he spoke.
If the person who made these edits is what his name is here, maybe if you knew him it might explain what he did or does. Brian graduated in 82. I had a class with him where he actually wrote a paper on the history of Livingston just to annoy the professor who didn't like Livingston.
When we all got our Who's Who Among American Students (which he got), he also got a special award from Dean Jenkins for beating a dead horse because of he fought centralization even after he lost. I never knew whether he was persistent or stubborn, but you could talk to him. Maybe he is fighting reorganization again.
I am not sure though he is who he is because who would use their real name here--that would be stupid. Rulc82 ( talk) 03:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
P.S. All this talk was for the memory of Livingston COLLEGE, so where are the edits to THAT page? Hopefully upcoming. Njsustain ( talk) 20:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Folks, let's not forget that Wikipedia has a very clear position on Point Of View. You can (and should if you haven't) familiarize yourselves with the details at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:No original research, but the gist of it is that both Brianlowy and Njsustain are correct. Personal knowlege and recollection have no place in Wikipedia, and claims ("facts" to some, "lies" to others) in contention must be supported by clear citations from reliable sources. When those reliable sources disagree and when there is no "mainstream" position on them, both positions should be presented in a balanced and neutral fashion. Rulc82 asks "How do we verify students trying to get academic credit for having sex? Yet we knew about that and even Professor Schocket mentioned that a few weeks ago when he spoke.", and while that's a good question, it's immaterial - Wikipedia doesn't care what we know, it cares what can be verified from sources. Wikipedia doesn't care that in my first year, 1976, you could still take Tai Chi for credit, though we mourned its relegation to a non-credit "club sport" deeply.
BTW, Jenkins was a mensch. He did everything he could to bring Livingston College back to what it started as and had veered away from under Mesthene. But the picture he paints of things like faculty in residence halls was already a thing of the past when he took over as Dean. With the exception of a few special groupings (e.g., the Puerto Rican Culture House), the Quads and the piece of the Towers we had were just student housing, similar to any other university. RossPatterson ( talk) 16:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
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This is not written like an encyclopedic article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.22.30 ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 10 November 2007
Since the article was moved from "Livingston College" to "Livingston Campus" (which was a perfectly fine and sensible thing to do) the article should be split. One should be a historic article about the founding of the college, its history, and alumni. The other should be about the physical campus itself. There of course would be links between the two, but the two topics don't really meld that well in a single article as they represent two entirely different things: an academic organization, and a physical place. Njsustain ( talk) 15:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
While the original army camp was named for Joyce Kilmer, and the campus took the name of the army camp, the library in turn took its name from the campus, not directly from Joyce Kilmer. If the library were named for Joyce Kilmer, it would be called the "Joyce Kilmer Library," but it is not. It might be nice, but it is not. Joyce Kilmer never actually graduated from Rutgers, though he did attend the school for a time, so it wouldn't really be in keeping with tradition to name a university building for someone who is neither an alumus nor a benefactor, nor a famous faculty member, administrator, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Njsustain ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
An interesting exception is Lucy Stone Hall. From RU: "Named after Lucy Stone, the founder of the New Jersey Woman's Suffrage Association. Born in Massachusetts in 1818; died in Massachusetts in 1893; graduate of Oberlin College; married to HB Blackwell in 1855; lived in NJ for 12 yrs; founded NJ Women's Suffrage Assoc. in 1867; engaged in frequent protests against the discriminatory laws and practices of that era. Source: Catalogue of Building and Place Names at Rutgers." Brianlowy ( talk) 17:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The changes today were varied and odd. The info about the college "becoming" a campus is incorrect. These two concepts are two completely different and separate issues. There can be a campus, a college, both, or neither... they are not mutually exclusive nor inclusive terms. The street naming issue may be correct, but needs to be added to the existing info, not replace it, since it has no references either. The info about the consolidation of colleges is both myopic and beyond the scope of the article... it involved only some of the schools of the university, and the associated discussion was not relevant. As for "the Rock"... I have no idea where that came from... this was never an official designation of the campus and I've never even heard of it in my 32 years here. Anyway, these changes were basically just random and not really all that well written, and completely unsourced. If there are any parts you would like to still include, please discuss here first then the appropriate info can be added in. Njsustain ( talk) 22:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
BRIAN RESPONDS: There is virtually nothing sourced in this article. In fact it is a horrible article that needs major revisions. There is more I am going to add when I have the time. Most of the history of Livingston is oral history. There is an interesting article written in 1980 by Professor Irving Louis Horowitz about the opening of the college.
Let me try to address your concerns:
(1) There are three stages of Livingston College: (1) Development and Opening (e.g., unique courses, interdisciplinary courses, new Depts [e.g., Journalism, Women Studies, Urban Studies], 1st gen students, faculty in the Quads); (2) Transition (e.g., end of interdisciplinary courses, end of pass/fair and intro of D grade); and (3) Centralization (end of the college faculty and courses, development of a few LC courses). In 2007, the college ended and now where a college was is a campus. The article on Livingston College should be separated from the article on Livingston Campus.
(2) The naming of the streets is correct because I was one of the students who attempted to get the street names changed.
(3) Centralization. Centralization took place in 1982. The five colleges in New Brunswick lost their faculty and their courses expect for some fellows and a few courses. When Centralization (the modified Wheeler Plan) was proposed and passed there was discussion of closing the colleges--that was a major concern. There were faculty and students who stated at the time that it was a matter of time before RU shut down the colleges. Any piece on LC without a discussion of centralization is missing a major part of its history. Just look at the Medium.
(4) The Rock--that was an unofficial name of the campus. If you have been there fore 32 years, I can't imagine how you never hear it. I will be eventually putting in the nicknames for the individual quads.
BTW, if you have been there for 32 years, I am sure we have met each other somewhere. Brianlowy ( talk) 17:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianlowy ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Brian, I'm not going to argue with you about who is right and who is wrong. If you don't have verifiable sources, anything you change is going to be deleted. I've worked a long time on this article, and if you don't approve of things because there aren't sourced, that's fine, but be aware that unsourced info can and will be deleted. If you can't work cooperatively with other writers and can't admit that people may know additional or more things than you do, then you have to follow the exact rules... and that is that anything unsourced will be deleted. Njsustain ( talk) 18:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Sadly, I don't know your name unless it is NJsustain (though I doubt it). You have no sources whatsoever in your piece, so it is just as valid as mine. Where are your verifiable sources??? It is not your article. I don't care how long you have worked on this article, you do not have ownership of it. How can you have an article about the rock and not mention its first dean, interdisciplinary studies (unusual at the time), the purpose of the college, etc???
We can go back and forth. What is your source of knowledge? Look, if you would like I can simply start tagging this article with every Wikipedia violation and eventually it will disappear or we can find a compromise. Your choice. Brianlowy ( talk) 18:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
This was a nice little article, and someone had to come in and decide it was his way or the highway. He couldn't add his perspective... he had to get rid of everyone else's perspective, then screams when people disagree with him, yet still won't cite any sources. He won't follow the etiquette nor the rules of Wikipedia.
Sadly, a fitting legacy to Livingston College. Njsustain ( talk)
COMMENT FROM A 82 LC GRAD: A few weeks ago we has an alumni event with some professors talking about the history of Livingston. This page came up and it was NOT viewed positively. I was seen as bias against Livingston and a joke. So I decided to look at it. It is a joke. It needs lots of work. You get no sense of what Livingston was like. Livingston was colorful--this page is bland. So much is missing. The tone is blah.
It appears he knows the rules here because he got you on the revert x 2 rule. One more revert by you and you would not be able to edit for 24 hours.
Wikipedia is all about edited it. He edited, you edited.
You use the word "people" but for the past 6 months you two are the only ones who edited. I am going to try to get other alums to edit this page and hopefully we can get a good page that is worthy. The problem is that there are no sources, You didn't use them, Brian didn't use them, I don't have them. How do we verify students trying to get academic credit for having sex? Yet we knew about that and even Professor Schocket mentioned that a few weeks ago when he spoke.
If the person who made these edits is what his name is here, maybe if you knew him it might explain what he did or does. Brian graduated in 82. I had a class with him where he actually wrote a paper on the history of Livingston just to annoy the professor who didn't like Livingston.
When we all got our Who's Who Among American Students (which he got), he also got a special award from Dean Jenkins for beating a dead horse because of he fought centralization even after he lost. I never knew whether he was persistent or stubborn, but you could talk to him. Maybe he is fighting reorganization again.
I am not sure though he is who he is because who would use their real name here--that would be stupid. Rulc82 ( talk) 03:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
P.S. All this talk was for the memory of Livingston COLLEGE, so where are the edits to THAT page? Hopefully upcoming. Njsustain ( talk) 20:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Folks, let's not forget that Wikipedia has a very clear position on Point Of View. You can (and should if you haven't) familiarize yourselves with the details at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:No original research, but the gist of it is that both Brianlowy and Njsustain are correct. Personal knowlege and recollection have no place in Wikipedia, and claims ("facts" to some, "lies" to others) in contention must be supported by clear citations from reliable sources. When those reliable sources disagree and when there is no "mainstream" position on them, both positions should be presented in a balanced and neutral fashion. Rulc82 asks "How do we verify students trying to get academic credit for having sex? Yet we knew about that and even Professor Schocket mentioned that a few weeks ago when he spoke.", and while that's a good question, it's immaterial - Wikipedia doesn't care what we know, it cares what can be verified from sources. Wikipedia doesn't care that in my first year, 1976, you could still take Tai Chi for credit, though we mourned its relegation to a non-credit "club sport" deeply.
BTW, Jenkins was a mensch. He did everything he could to bring Livingston College back to what it started as and had veered away from under Mesthene. But the picture he paints of things like faculty in residence halls was already a thing of the past when he took over as Dean. With the exception of a few special groupings (e.g., the Puerto Rican Culture House), the Quads and the piece of the Towers we had were just student housing, similar to any other university. RossPatterson ( talk) 16:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Livingston Campus (Rutgers University). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:48, 4 January 2018 (UTC)