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This article was nominated for deletion on 24 March 2011. The result of the discussion was keep. |
It would be great if someone could put together a chart
Date / Name(s) / Conflict / What happened
These three entries are respectively: not about a revolution but a defense of one, not a positive contribution but hurting someone else which caused them to do something that incited a revolution, and not a revolution but a strike.
I suggest these be removed, or moved to a Related/Other category. Ocaasi c 17:34, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Faida Hamdi doesn't qualify for an article due to WP:BLP1E. Furthermore, she denies the charges against her, and an investigation found her innocent. Therefore, what she is claimed to have done (which is to confiscate Mohamed Bouazizi's wares, toss his produce cart, slap him in the face, spit on him, and insult his dead father before having her two male aides beat him in the street because his willingness to pay only a small bribe--the equivalent of a full day's earnings--was insufficient for her), by her side of it, never happened. In which case, any argument that she deserves some sort of credit for "sparking" the Jasmine Revolution is invalid. Now, should you not be one to believe her story--that an unprovoked man lit himself on fire for no apparent reason--and believe that all the above did happen, then I would argue it would be an unpopular position to take that her actions "sparked" the revolution. More appropriately framed, her actions triggered the spark, as Ocaasi worded it. Bouazizi sacrificed himself for his country. He inspired the revolution. That's what every single source (and I read probably 150-200 during the time I worked on his biography) credits him for. I've not read a single source that gives her such credit. To write it any differently in this list would not only be original research, but an unspeakably disrespectful expression of a personal opinion that drastically devalues the sacrifice of Mohamed Bouazizi. Lara 21:28, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
References
{{
cite news}}
: Text "publisher
The Independent" ignored (
help)
It's unclear to me that Olga's attacks on the Drevlians were what we would term a revolution. In the sense that the Kievan Rus' had already seized the Drevlian territory and were already extracting a sort of tax from them, the leadership had already been established; her reign of terror over them seems partially out of revenge for their having killed her husband (which would make them the rebels), partly an authoritarian crackdown, and partly a genocide. I don't know how much a campaign of heavy taxation and religious proselytizing—however unprecedented both may have been in Drevlian territory at the time—by someone already in a leadership position, against her subjects, can be considered a revolution; it's an interesting concept, but without her bloody work actually termed a revolution or rebellion in a reliable source, it is certainly what Wikipedia terms WP:Original research. Please present such a source or remove her entry to this section at the talk page pending such a source. Abrazame ( talk) 13:05, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Very few entires fit within the criteria defined by the title. Considering the AFD is practically snowballing keep without any policy-based reasoning, the article needs to be revamped to meet standards. First necessity is to change the name. Of course, to do that, you need to decide what you want it to include. If you're going for women who inspired a revolution, you're going to have to cut around half of the article out, at least, because it's original research to credit them with such when no reliable sources have. If you want to broaden it to include a greater number of women then it needs a name to reflect more accurately what they are known for. If it's not possible to come up with a realistic name that includes all the current entries on the list, perhaps consider making more than one list and connecting them through "See also" sections and a category. And then, for whatever way you end up defining the list(s), be sure each entry clearly explains (based on reliable sources) what the woman did to earn such a distinction. As it is, most of the entries don't explain anything regarding a revolution. Defeats the purpose of the list. Lara 20:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I think before settling on a title, we should decide what is to be included. Looking at the current list, for example - would we want to include Gbowee and Freeman? That would exclude pretty much every title that refers to the military, war, revolution, or rebellion. (Because yes, they were leaders and they influenced a war which led to a change of government, but it would be misleading at best and possibly inaccurate.) Korolyuk and Tymoshenko - they weren't military leaders, and indeed the Orange Revolution was not a military event. What about Cleopatra? Was she really at the head of her troops, or was she just a political leader in a time of war? And again, "revolution" or "rebellion" excludes Cleopatra, Jingu, Deborah, Jael, Joan of Arc, and probably others. Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Something still needs to happen with this list. The AFD is set to close in a few hours and it's full of keep votes. We need to pick one of the above title changes and trim the list to the appropriate women. Move the rest to a sandbox or two. Lara 04:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
This is my attempt at a new list Women who led a rebellion or a revolution. Feel free to prune, but I think I was very selective. USchick ( talk) 05:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
A question has been brought up about source #1 that goes with the statement "nonviolent civil resistance is often associated with the advancement of democracy." The question is whether the source mentions women and if it doesn't is it an appropriate source.
The page move was in the right direction. The removed examples above do have some wiggle room, though. After all, a revolution has to succeed, but a revolt or rebellion just has to try. I think a coup is in the same category as a revolt or rebellion. The other weaselly word is "led" a revolution, which could imply nominal leadership or a lesser notable decision-making role (compare team-captain or coach to point-guard or play-maker). So, there might be room for women who made strong decisions but were not generals. Led might also apply to aspects of a rebellion, for example leading a charge rather than leading the entire campaign. Accepting that definition might require a new title: [List of women who led in a revolt or rebellion], since it is more inclusive. Of course, this is my sneaky semantic lawyer hat on, so take that for what it's worth. Alternately, a hard-line interpretation of revolution and leader could be used to shore up against the weak intruders. Ocaasi c 04:43, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
After much discussion in the AfD about the term revolution, and considering that we're pondering whether the current title is really where we'll end up, I'm wondering what the reasons were in going with revolt or rebellion rather than rebellion or revolution. Revolt and rebellion are the most synonymous, and so not necessary to indicate both in the title. Further, revolt and rebellion are reactions that have little to do with result, and often imply no result, whereas revolution is a step beyond. Revolution implies not simply the reaction and reasons for it, but the change that the reaction brings about.
Revolt is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to renounce allegiance or subjection (as to a government): REBEL".
Rebellion is defined as "1: opposition to one in authority or dominance; 2a: open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government; 2b: an instance of such defiance or resistance."
Revolution is defined as "2a: a sudden, radical, or complete change; 2b: a fundamental change in political organization; especially: the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed"
The definition of revolution is one that is posing a problem for me at another article; we can't title articles and lists with words we are not willing to understand and prepared to represent in the article or list. At this list, the suggestion of the somewhat synonymous "revolt or rebellion" and the rejection of the word "revolution" seems to presuppose we are going to present a list of failed attempts. The difference between failure and success in the real historical events can be great or small, but the difference between failure and success, as was implied in my suggested title "rebellion or revolution", and primarily failure but not success, as is implied in the current title, is disappointing. As I had pointed out here and/or at the AfD, we already combine failed and successful coups, and it seemed to me that given the limited parameter of "led by women", we should open the list up to both failed and successful revolts and revolutions. To contradict my fine colleague Ocaasi, yes, every revolution is also a revolt, but no, not every revolt is a revolution.
In summary, the question, it seems to me, is what is the scale and parameter we are looking to include in this list? Is it our intention to include every time a woman's example in so doing led others to renounce allegiance or subjection (for example, we could include Rosa Parks' passive resistance to sitting in the back of the bus), or are we hoping to present women who actively sought to draw participants into, directed, and/or stood out in front on an issue (for example, the shirt factory woman)? Perhaps all (I'm not presenting an argument against all), but the problem I've had throughout these discussions is that we have a list of women in history who've done various things more or less militarily on the one hand and people who seem to object to lists of women on the other, without a serious and sustained, focused and informed thread of discussion about the unique value this list should present as distinguished from the women in war categories et al. I think I've been clear about what I see the value in presenting, but even if that's not the direction consensus takes this, I haven't really seen a case made for anything else, even as random else is what we've seen. Jennavecia, is this Lara? (It's not helpful to see one name in edit histories and another in signatures.) Why would you take it upon yourself to choose the title you did when you're expressly on record as not condoning the list in any iteration, and that's neither what we discussed at the AfD nor definitionally superior? Abrazame ( talk) 00:08, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
References
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She had the rank of Captain, and she was assigned her own army. [2] She led the French army in a revolt [3] against the occupation of the English during the Hundred Years' War. She did this in defiance of the war council, (which is also a revolt). USchick ( talk) 17:51, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Is there any reason why Rosa Luxemburg is not included in this list? I can't see any discussion or suggestion, but I don't want to add her name if there is some decision or criterion which I am unaware of which would preclude this. RolandR ( talk) 16:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Its been three years since this comment and the omission of Rosa Luxemburg is bizarre unless the criteria was originally something like 'led a *successful* rebellion'. N0thingbetter ( talk) 06:05, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
I moved this here because I can't find any news coverage of this person or movement. Perhaps it's just too soon. If you know of sources, in English media or Pakistani media, please list them below and we can put it back! Jake Ocaasi t | c 16:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of women who led a revolt or rebellion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for deletion on 24 March 2011. The result of the discussion was keep. |
It would be great if someone could put together a chart
Date / Name(s) / Conflict / What happened
These three entries are respectively: not about a revolution but a defense of one, not a positive contribution but hurting someone else which caused them to do something that incited a revolution, and not a revolution but a strike.
I suggest these be removed, or moved to a Related/Other category. Ocaasi c 17:34, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Faida Hamdi doesn't qualify for an article due to WP:BLP1E. Furthermore, she denies the charges against her, and an investigation found her innocent. Therefore, what she is claimed to have done (which is to confiscate Mohamed Bouazizi's wares, toss his produce cart, slap him in the face, spit on him, and insult his dead father before having her two male aides beat him in the street because his willingness to pay only a small bribe--the equivalent of a full day's earnings--was insufficient for her), by her side of it, never happened. In which case, any argument that she deserves some sort of credit for "sparking" the Jasmine Revolution is invalid. Now, should you not be one to believe her story--that an unprovoked man lit himself on fire for no apparent reason--and believe that all the above did happen, then I would argue it would be an unpopular position to take that her actions "sparked" the revolution. More appropriately framed, her actions triggered the spark, as Ocaasi worded it. Bouazizi sacrificed himself for his country. He inspired the revolution. That's what every single source (and I read probably 150-200 during the time I worked on his biography) credits him for. I've not read a single source that gives her such credit. To write it any differently in this list would not only be original research, but an unspeakably disrespectful expression of a personal opinion that drastically devalues the sacrifice of Mohamed Bouazizi. Lara 21:28, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
References
{{
cite news}}
: Text "publisher
The Independent" ignored (
help)
It's unclear to me that Olga's attacks on the Drevlians were what we would term a revolution. In the sense that the Kievan Rus' had already seized the Drevlian territory and were already extracting a sort of tax from them, the leadership had already been established; her reign of terror over them seems partially out of revenge for their having killed her husband (which would make them the rebels), partly an authoritarian crackdown, and partly a genocide. I don't know how much a campaign of heavy taxation and religious proselytizing—however unprecedented both may have been in Drevlian territory at the time—by someone already in a leadership position, against her subjects, can be considered a revolution; it's an interesting concept, but without her bloody work actually termed a revolution or rebellion in a reliable source, it is certainly what Wikipedia terms WP:Original research. Please present such a source or remove her entry to this section at the talk page pending such a source. Abrazame ( talk) 13:05, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Very few entires fit within the criteria defined by the title. Considering the AFD is practically snowballing keep without any policy-based reasoning, the article needs to be revamped to meet standards. First necessity is to change the name. Of course, to do that, you need to decide what you want it to include. If you're going for women who inspired a revolution, you're going to have to cut around half of the article out, at least, because it's original research to credit them with such when no reliable sources have. If you want to broaden it to include a greater number of women then it needs a name to reflect more accurately what they are known for. If it's not possible to come up with a realistic name that includes all the current entries on the list, perhaps consider making more than one list and connecting them through "See also" sections and a category. And then, for whatever way you end up defining the list(s), be sure each entry clearly explains (based on reliable sources) what the woman did to earn such a distinction. As it is, most of the entries don't explain anything regarding a revolution. Defeats the purpose of the list. Lara 20:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I think before settling on a title, we should decide what is to be included. Looking at the current list, for example - would we want to include Gbowee and Freeman? That would exclude pretty much every title that refers to the military, war, revolution, or rebellion. (Because yes, they were leaders and they influenced a war which led to a change of government, but it would be misleading at best and possibly inaccurate.) Korolyuk and Tymoshenko - they weren't military leaders, and indeed the Orange Revolution was not a military event. What about Cleopatra? Was she really at the head of her troops, or was she just a political leader in a time of war? And again, "revolution" or "rebellion" excludes Cleopatra, Jingu, Deborah, Jael, Joan of Arc, and probably others. Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Something still needs to happen with this list. The AFD is set to close in a few hours and it's full of keep votes. We need to pick one of the above title changes and trim the list to the appropriate women. Move the rest to a sandbox or two. Lara 04:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
This is my attempt at a new list Women who led a rebellion or a revolution. Feel free to prune, but I think I was very selective. USchick ( talk) 05:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
A question has been brought up about source #1 that goes with the statement "nonviolent civil resistance is often associated with the advancement of democracy." The question is whether the source mentions women and if it doesn't is it an appropriate source.
The page move was in the right direction. The removed examples above do have some wiggle room, though. After all, a revolution has to succeed, but a revolt or rebellion just has to try. I think a coup is in the same category as a revolt or rebellion. The other weaselly word is "led" a revolution, which could imply nominal leadership or a lesser notable decision-making role (compare team-captain or coach to point-guard or play-maker). So, there might be room for women who made strong decisions but were not generals. Led might also apply to aspects of a rebellion, for example leading a charge rather than leading the entire campaign. Accepting that definition might require a new title: [List of women who led in a revolt or rebellion], since it is more inclusive. Of course, this is my sneaky semantic lawyer hat on, so take that for what it's worth. Alternately, a hard-line interpretation of revolution and leader could be used to shore up against the weak intruders. Ocaasi c 04:43, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
After much discussion in the AfD about the term revolution, and considering that we're pondering whether the current title is really where we'll end up, I'm wondering what the reasons were in going with revolt or rebellion rather than rebellion or revolution. Revolt and rebellion are the most synonymous, and so not necessary to indicate both in the title. Further, revolt and rebellion are reactions that have little to do with result, and often imply no result, whereas revolution is a step beyond. Revolution implies not simply the reaction and reasons for it, but the change that the reaction brings about.
Revolt is defined by Merriam-Webster as "to renounce allegiance or subjection (as to a government): REBEL".
Rebellion is defined as "1: opposition to one in authority or dominance; 2a: open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government; 2b: an instance of such defiance or resistance."
Revolution is defined as "2a: a sudden, radical, or complete change; 2b: a fundamental change in political organization; especially: the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed"
The definition of revolution is one that is posing a problem for me at another article; we can't title articles and lists with words we are not willing to understand and prepared to represent in the article or list. At this list, the suggestion of the somewhat synonymous "revolt or rebellion" and the rejection of the word "revolution" seems to presuppose we are going to present a list of failed attempts. The difference between failure and success in the real historical events can be great or small, but the difference between failure and success, as was implied in my suggested title "rebellion or revolution", and primarily failure but not success, as is implied in the current title, is disappointing. As I had pointed out here and/or at the AfD, we already combine failed and successful coups, and it seemed to me that given the limited parameter of "led by women", we should open the list up to both failed and successful revolts and revolutions. To contradict my fine colleague Ocaasi, yes, every revolution is also a revolt, but no, not every revolt is a revolution.
In summary, the question, it seems to me, is what is the scale and parameter we are looking to include in this list? Is it our intention to include every time a woman's example in so doing led others to renounce allegiance or subjection (for example, we could include Rosa Parks' passive resistance to sitting in the back of the bus), or are we hoping to present women who actively sought to draw participants into, directed, and/or stood out in front on an issue (for example, the shirt factory woman)? Perhaps all (I'm not presenting an argument against all), but the problem I've had throughout these discussions is that we have a list of women in history who've done various things more or less militarily on the one hand and people who seem to object to lists of women on the other, without a serious and sustained, focused and informed thread of discussion about the unique value this list should present as distinguished from the women in war categories et al. I think I've been clear about what I see the value in presenting, but even if that's not the direction consensus takes this, I haven't really seen a case made for anything else, even as random else is what we've seen. Jennavecia, is this Lara? (It's not helpful to see one name in edit histories and another in signatures.) Why would you take it upon yourself to choose the title you did when you're expressly on record as not condoning the list in any iteration, and that's neither what we discussed at the AfD nor definitionally superior? Abrazame ( talk) 00:08, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
References
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cite book}}
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has generic name (
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
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ignored (|author=
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She had the rank of Captain, and she was assigned her own army. [2] She led the French army in a revolt [3] against the occupation of the English during the Hundred Years' War. She did this in defiance of the war council, (which is also a revolt). USchick ( talk) 17:51, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Is there any reason why Rosa Luxemburg is not included in this list? I can't see any discussion or suggestion, but I don't want to add her name if there is some decision or criterion which I am unaware of which would preclude this. RolandR ( talk) 16:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Its been three years since this comment and the omission of Rosa Luxemburg is bizarre unless the criteria was originally something like 'led a *successful* rebellion'. N0thingbetter ( talk) 06:05, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
I moved this here because I can't find any news coverage of this person or movement. Perhaps it's just too soon. If you know of sources, in English media or Pakistani media, please list them below and we can put it back! Jake Ocaasi t | c 16:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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