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1. As others have said, we have to seperate between stupidity and pseudosciences. Fairies is stupid but not a scientific stupidity.
2. We have to make it clearer that is psuedoscientific about a subject and that is not. To just write Tunguska event and nothing more, makes is seem that the Tungaska event didn't happen. This is wrong. We should write something like:
Antimatter Tungaska event - the belief that the Tungaska event was not caused by a meteor but by antimatter or similary anomalous causes.
Other subjects that may need rewriting is
Should we not add religion, god and soul as psudoscientific concepts?
3. Some things are not big enough to include. Laundry balls - never heard about. Delete?
4. We should seperate between obscure and parody pseudoscience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.108.234 ( talk) 00:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Reko 23:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Should the bible codes be listed here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 ( talk) 16:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
The list as structured has conflicting purposes. Is it for anything called pseudoscientific by any critic or for areas where there is a clear consensus that a subject is pseudoscientific? If the latter, evidence of this should be on the article's page (and/or presented here). If the former, the article is misleadingly (and leadingly) titled, as are sections thereof. Some clarification is needed - you can't have it both ways (i.e. include disputed areas but title this article as if only undisputed items are included). Hgilbert 10:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I have moved certain subjects from the main list to a disputed area. References are supplied in the article for the dispute (except for biorhythms, which still needs positive citations). Hgilbert 13:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that there is a range between genuinely disputed areas (e.g. acupuncture), marginally disputed areas and areas only disputed by fringe elements (e.g. evolution, or the roundness of the earth for that matter). There are also areas, however, that are clearly not pseudoscientific (e.g. meditation, ball lightning, subliminal perception) on this list. Whether the latter two exist or not is an ongoing scientific question; to prejudge this is bad science. The Wikipedia entry on ball lightning certainly indicates that there is serious scientific research on the question.
The article says of the areas listed: "a majority of the work ... done in them (or having been done) is of a pseudoscientific nature." This claim is not proven for quite a number of the items, either here or in the corresponding articles. In fact, several of them assert that the contrary is true; that serious work is ongoing. An unsupported claim should either be dropped or proven. If the article is simply a collection of everything skeptic groups, or even single individuals, (both of which are by definition not neutral) consider pseudoscientific, it should be clear about this too.
The terminology and qualifications for being listed should be brought into line. Hgilbert 18:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with this approach, but the list's name and the introduction should then be changed. You can't include ball lightning in a list of pseudosciences, or assert that it is a pseudoscience, when there is ongoing and genuine scientific research into the subject. Let's decide what we want and then title and introduce it accordingly. A broadly inclusive policy will require a title such as "List of concepts critiqued as pseudoscientific". Hgilbert 01:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
All right, I've gone through the recent archives and the arbitration proceedings. Some questions: First of all, I cannot see many of the footnotes (those formatted like this: {{ref|[S]}}. They are invisible to my browser somehow. Do they exist?
I see problems that remain with the following areas:
In some cases, there are citations in this article supporting a topic's scientific foundation, but none supporting the claim that they are pseudoscientific or undermining this foundation!!! I have fact-tagged these items.
Finally, whatever standard the article applies, documentation needs to be present as to how the topic meets this standard. Hgilbert 16:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the present lead section meets that criterion. Hgilbert 18:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like to call into question the reasoning for adding the ref tag to the ball lightning entry. What would properly satisfy the editor in question who added the tag in order to have it removed? There are numerous ref's that can added from the ball lightning entry to support the anecdotal evidence, but is it really worth adding more ref's to the page that already has a ton? From reading through the ref's on the entry, there does not seem to be a single entry that discusses more than 2 specific instances. Thoughts? Cheers!!! Baegis 19:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you're right about it meeting the current criteria. I have therefore moved ball lightning to a section for natural phenomena for which there is only anecdotal evidence, and have therefore been doubted by skeptics, but which mainstream science does not question. Hgilbert 10:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned above, many of the references in this article seem not to function (those formatted with {{ref}} templates, in particular). Shall we remove them, or does someone know something I don't? Hgilbert 23:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like to replace dead links with requests for citations if there is no other solution. Hgilbert 18:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, fixed. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
If we stay with the current criteria for entries in this list, I suggest that we change the article title. The situation with ball lightning makes this evident; try this topic in Google Scholar and a host of scientific studies of the phenomenon come up, including book length works. The New Scientist article cited above makes it evident that there is no longer serious doubt about the existence of the phenomenon, only about its cause. The Wikipedia Ball lightning article records no dispute about the topic's scientific validity. Yet, because it is (apparently) mentioned in a single skeptical work, probably with no citations at all to document its pseudoscientific nature, it can be included in this list.
If an area of serious scientific study can be listed here on such a basis, then the list's title cannot claim that its entries are definitively pseudosciences - only that someone, somewhere, has claimed this, even if the scientific consensus is overwhelmingly against that individual or body. How about "List of topics ever termed pseudoscientific"? Then we get to include psychoanalysis, cryogenics, Zen and sunspot cycles (all in Williams' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience). Hgilbert 02:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
There are, of course, areas like this, and we should be careful to avoid tainting a field with a tar brush meant for certain of its interpreters. This may need review, as well; are we careful enough with this distinction for the general reader?
I was discussing a more general divergence between the criteria for inclusion and the title, however. If one hundred scientists have done serious work in a field but one skeptical writer has called the field pseudoscience, the field qualifies for inclusion here according to the list's criteria. But it is not verifiable to call the field a pseudoscience, merely a field someone has once mentioned in this context. That's different than a list of verifiably pseudoscientific fields, meaning there is a broader consensus than a single individual in a contested area.
Note that I am not here concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus towards pseudoscience except for a few fringe supporters/investigators. I am concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus toward science but a few fringe skeptics. This seems to be the problematic situation where the article title implies a consensus that need not exist for inclusion here. Hgilbert 16:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's the situation with ball lightning. It appears to be a subject of considerable serious scientific research - there are pages and pages of book-length and journal treatments on Google Scholar. But one encyclopedia appears to consider it pseudoscientific, and this apparently solely because people have seen the phenomenon often (which is all anecdotal evidence means). We only have analytical evidence that things fall down when dropped, for example, but gravity is not considered pseudoscience. Hgilbert 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the point. Hgilbert 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
And then let's make sure the title reflects the criteria. Hgilbert 00:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't personally consider eugenics to fall under the definition of "pseudoscience" proper, but it is often, often referred to as such. My thoughts on it might be that it could fall into a somewhat separate category here, if others agreed: things often referred to as pseudoscience, often because specific historical forms of it engaged in what we might call pseudoscience in retrospect, but depending on the current definition of the term may or may not fall under any strict definition of pseudoscience. But maybe that is a bit too wordy. Anyway, just a thought I had. -- 24.147.86.187 20:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I understand that User:Hgilbert is a fan of anthroposophy, so that may explain why anthroposphy was so unduly characterized with kid gloves. In particular, the evaluation of the sources discussing this subject was obviously biased. Classifying anthroposophy under the categorization of "conflicting studies" is quite disingenuous as the subject has absolutely zero support from the scientific community for its pseudoscientific aspects. ScienceApologist 15:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I just looked at the source referenced to include anthroposophy and anthroposophic medicine in this article, the Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. As far as I can see, the relevant article does not refer to either of the two as pseudoscience, nor does it use any phrasing equivalent to this. At the moment, including the two in this list appears to be Original research. The articles are written by a person with no academic qualifications; the only critical commentary in the article - which has nothiing to do with pseudoscience - is cited to a self-published website. I'm not clear how this is an encyclopediac source, and it clearly does not support the entry here. Hgilbert 02:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The cited encyclopedia labels it an "important pseudoscientific concept." I'm not sure what else you could want. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Please follow Wikipedia standards for reliability and verifiability. Unless a source does not conform to these, please do not remove it arbitrarily (i.e. because it contradicts your POV). In addition, when an active discussion is in hand, it is bad manners to peremptorily take one-sided action. Hgilbert 11:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Above a few editors suggest we should assess the various sources on offer and decide which are the most reliable and/or authoritative and then come to decision here, on that basis, about whether something is or is not pseudoscience. The editors further suggest that once that decision has been reached here, the less authoritative/reliable sources (in our view) should be ignored completely and the article should then state (as fact) only that viewpoint that we have decided here is the most authoritative/reliable source.
This runs directly counter to Wiki policy in at least two ways. First, it is almost the definition of original research. That is, we research the topic, we assess the evidence, we assess the credibility/authority/reliability of the sources, and we then write our conclusions into the article as fact. Second, it runs roughshod over the notion that all notable viewpoints should be expressed. That is, it means that once we have decided what the truth is, we cherry pick those sources we used for our decision and pretend that competing viewpoints/sources don't exist.
On both counts, then, the proposal should be roundly rejected. The problem here is not solved by coming up with new ways to circumvent Wiki policy. The problem here stems from the fact that whether something is or is not a pseudoscience is not a straightforward matter of fact, but is instead, at best, a complex value judgment. And when we add to that problem the problem of the various meanings/uses of "pseudoscience" (one fairly tight definition that includes almost nothing, one fairly loose one that includes almost everything including many sciences, and one that is simply thrown about as a pejorative by various professional "skeptics"), we can begin to see the underlying difficulties with the article as a whole. That is, the title suggests that there is a list to be compiled in a fairly straightforward manner, but the actuality shows that there isn't.
My suggestion, then, is: change the title to "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience", and then in each case state explicitly in what sense something has been so labeled; or else give it up. Anything else is, as stated above, a mere piece of POV pushing sleight of hand. Davkal 13:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
1. Nobody was saying that sources don't have to be weighed and appropriate levels of coverage given in the article - this is the essence of Wiki policy. The reason the proposal above runs completely counter to this is that the suggestion there is to weigh the sources here (on the talk page) and then write the article from the viewpoint of only the "winning" source" - the "losing" sources being left unrepresented in the article. This, as noted, is the antithesis of presenting all notable viewpoints because it is the explicit removal of some/many notable viewpoints/sources in order to present a seemingly factual situation in the article (i.e., x is pseudoscience) where no such certainty exists in actuality. The whole point of including all notable viewpoints being to prevent this kind of thing.
2. "Skeptics" such as Robert Carroll and Michael Shermer do throw the word "pseudoscience about as a pejorative and this article does even worse. That is, things are included in this article on no other basis than they are included in a book called the 'encyclopedia of pseudoscience' - a title that was probably chosen for it's rhetorical appeal rather than any actual analysis, carefully considered or otherwise. How else can one explain the inclusion of "trolls, elves and pixies" in such a book. And this is why there is a pressing need for the sense in which "pseudoscience" is being used to be explained in each case - the refusal to do this, or even to acknowledge the appallingly loose manner in which some items have been deemed pseudoscience is the clumsy piece of sleight of hand referred to above. It's not that far removed from having a list called "people born out of wedlock" and including in it everyone who (my friends) have ever called a bastard. That this is being done is amply illustrated in the "ours is not to reason why" response which is so regularly used to respond to anyone questioning anything in the list. Davkal 17:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to do any research to know that fairies, elves and trolls etc. are not pseudoscience in anything other than a pejorative and largely empty sense of the term meaning roughly: supernatural or mythological or thought previously by some to exist but now thought not to. One only needs a modicum of intelligence. The point being, the one you don't even try to address - preferring instead a non-argument,is that if a list includes, say, elves, then it is not a list of pseudosciences whatever the commercial or rhetorical or pseudointellectual or pseudodscientific thinking that lay behind the choice to include "pseudoscience" in the title. And the further point being, that once we have shown by reference to the inclusion of, say, elves, in such a book, that the title cannot really be taken as evidence that what is included in it s pseudoscience, we should stop using the mere inclusion of things in such a book as a catch all response to anybody who questions why something is included in our list. Unless, of course, you want to honestly name the article "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience" or some such thing. But then if you did that you wouldn't be able to push your POV that the things here are pseudoscience in actual fact. Which is the whole point of the article after all. Davkal 18:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's calm down. I do agree that X's mere inclusion in the table of contents of a book with a title "Encyclopedia of Y" does not qualify as verifiable evidence that X is an example of Y, absent any content in the article that supports this further. I would hope that anyone with any sense for scientific proof, or academic standards generally, would recognize this as a minimum standard.
This is especially true in the case at hand. Heliocentrism, Thomas Kuhn, Occam's Razor, William Harvey, Meteorites and Kraken all have articles devoted to them in another encyclopedia of pseudoscience. Shall we list these as examples of pseudoscience, too? Otherwise, we will need some content in the article itself that justifies the classification. Hgilbert 22:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Three Points: 1. All that has been said up to now is that mere inclusion in the book, irrespective of further content is enough. If these things are in the book then they are pseudoscience, according to that line of argument. But now the argument has changed to require some further statement or clarification in the relevant sections of the book, which Hgilbert has already noted is missing in other cases already included here. That is why it is relevant. 2. Following on from 1) and the point I made above, once we have ample examples of things that are clearly not pseudoscience listed in an encyclopedia of pseudoscience, it is going to take much more than mere inclusion in such a book to make the case for something being a pseudoscince. 3. If you, Baegis, think threats of blocks for personal attacks where no personal attacks are made, and references to past "crimes", and accusations of trolling, followed by requests to stop contributing here are not threats, harassment and intimidation, then I suggest you familiarise yourself with the meanings of the words "comment on content, not on contributors".
Davkal 00:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
4. Points: 1. I never said you threatened me with a block, Simoes did, just above: "Unless you're aiming to get yourself blocked yet again...". 2. To call someones arguments "rants", and accuse them of trolling, and make no real other points about content, is hardly observing wiki policy with regard to the way to respect the views of others. 3. Whether or not the points I make help the article or not is something that only time will tell and is not for you to decide. And 4. the point now under discussion is whether we should reject the argument, much (ab)used previously, and require something more than mere inclusion in a book with pseudoscience in its title to warrant inclusion in the list. The general view now seems to be that we should. Davkal 00:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
This edit [3] removes material which is irrelevant to whether anthroposophy is pseudoscience or not. Whether there are benefits to anthroposophy is irrelevant to whether they are considered psuedoscience or have psuedoscientific characteristics. These points can be listed at the relevant pages (anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine) but do not belong on this page. ScienceApologist 16:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Let's please avoid editing and reverting the controversial entries on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine until there is a consensus on what they should say. Merci bien, EPadmirateur 20:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
In an article with almost no academic sources, and almost exclusively referencing the table of contents of one book as its source, it is a little sad that real citations (to academic journals and books) with clear and obvious relevance are being removed by one user. I am referring to the anthroposophy citations, one about reductions in atopy (through empirical testing and published in the Lancet, which of all sources should be acceptable here) and one about the validity of its epistemological basis. Is it scientific, in order to make a point, to delete Lancet articles and keep citations to people with absolutely no academic or professional qualifications in the field, and who have been judged intellectually incompetent to comment on any field by a verifiable source, as has Dugan, the author of the article in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia presently cited? Hgilbert 16:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I have added the disputed tag since there are many serious concerns about this article that have not been addressed. The article excludes presenting notable views by a piece of sleight of hand between the title and the explanation of content (neutrality). Even given the explanation of content the topics included are cherry picked (neutrality again). The definitions of some entries are ridiculous and many ludicrous opinions are presented as fact (factual accuracy). Davkal 20:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Hgilbert disputes for the same reasons. So have a number of others above in the last few days. These points have never been addressed. I have reverted your vandalism. Sockpuppet/meatpuppet who cares. Davkal 21:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
This looks like bullying.--
Filll 22:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with expanding the list and encourage people to do so. Obviously some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience are not pseudoscience at all (for example, biographies of people like Carl Sagan), but the encyclopedia includes other examples of pseudoscience that are clearly not listed here. No one ever said that the article was exhaustive! ScienceApologist 22:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that I also agree with the neutrality in dispute tag: "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." Rather than get into a revert war, perhaps we can discuss the points that motivated that tag? Perhaps the article's editors will allow countervailing evidence to be presented for a listing? So that the article can present a balanced, neutral point of view? -- EPadmirateur 00:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I hope we all share in a consensus that:
If we do have such consensus, we can go on to evaluate case by case. If we don't, I support the disputed tag. Hgilbert 00:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Citing Shermer's contention that X is a pseudoscientific concept is not presenting it as fact. As a notable skeptic and trained researcher, Shermer's opinion on what constitutes pseudoscience is simply being used as a criterion for inclusion in this list, not to make value judgements about X. Also, I think it is a bit absurd to assert that someone needs to be an expert in a particular field in order to objectively evaluate whether there is a scientific basis to the claims made in that field. Shermer is clearly an expert in general scientific principles and experimental methodology, which is all that is required to objectively evaluate most scientific claims. — DIEGO talk 03:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Hgilbert's proposal. Unfortunately, after reading the arguments on the talk page it seems that some editors want to use this list to discuss the validity of each individual concept, which would be better suited to the individual articles on the concepts. The introduction to this list makes it clear that concepts included in the list are "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations within the international scientific community, and/or skeptical organizations." Therefore, any evaluation of sources should focus solely on whether the concept meets this criteria. If a reliable source within the scientific or skeptical community considers X to be pseudoscientific, then it should be included. Any contradictory evidence from a WP:RS supporting the claims of X clearly needs to be included in X's article in order to maintain NPOV, but is irrelevant to X's inclusion in this list. This list should not be a forum for competing sources. That said, inclusion in the table of contents of an encyclopedia of pseudoscience (without a statement in an article explicitly labeling it pseudoscience [or an accepted synonym]) does not seem to meet the burden of evidence. Surely, we can do better than that. If an item on the list is truly considered pseudoscience by the scientific and/or skeptical community, it shouldn't be difficult to find impeccable, easily verifiable sources to confirm this. — DIEGO talk 03:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What is the point of having an article with a title that says "things that are x", when it is necessary for the first three paragraphs in the article to explain why virtually everything in the article may not actually be an example of x at all. That is, the first para has the qualifier "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations..." (which means someone has simply called them PS). And this is further qualified in the second para by: "they may have explicitly called a field or concept "pseudoscience" or used synonyms, some of which are identified in the references" (which means they may not have even been called PS, but something like it, some of which we'll tell you about). And this, unbelievably, is then further qualified in the third para by, "Some subjects in this list may be legitimate fields of research and/or have legitimate scientific research ongoing within them" (which is to say that they may actually be scientifically valid after all - ie, not PS). So, in short, we have a "list of pseudosciences" which contains things that have been called pseudoscience, except for those that haven't, and even those that have might not be PS in any event. As Butthead so succinctly put it: STOP in the name of all that does not suck! Davkal 00:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
We need clarity about whether evidence unrelated to demarcation is allowed here. In the anthroposophic medicine and EHS entries, for example, studies are included that relate to efficacy or lack of effect found. Do all such studies belong to the articles on these subjects, and not here?
There are deeper questions here, some of which we can't go into due to our limited function as editors drawing upon others' conclusions: is something pseudoscience because it is not testable (in which case no empirical evidence, pro or con, could be brought by definition) or is something pseudoscience because it is tested and found wanting? Can something be pseudoscience if empirical tests show efficacy - do not positive results in rigorous, peer-reviewed trials provide scientific proof? Hgilbert 08:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Hypnosis isn't a pseudo-science. Past life regression and other silly claims are, but hypnosis is a well documented subset of psychology, sometimes also called "altered state" or "suggestible state" in the literature. The mechanism of how it works might be disputed, but the fact it works is not. This is different to, for example, homeopathy, which has no mechanism and no proof of efficacy 88.172.132.94 17:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose that, while the page is protected and we cannot enter new material there, we should gather the justifying quotations that are being used to classify entries here as pseudoscience. (It may be that we need to discuss criteria here too.) I suggest that we use this space to list quotations for each entry that does not already have a quotation (not just citation) that justifies classifying the topic as pseudoscience. I'll make a start with two categories that look like they contain controversial areas: Hgilbert 00:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I have moved mysticism et al. to the disputed area, as it is unusual to consider religious and spiritual phenomena pseudoscientific and because we have no confirmation of anything more than a listing in a table of contents in an encyclopedia as a verifiable source for most of these being included here at all. Hgilbert 20:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
On 2 November 2007 I requested verification that the entries above are actually cited as pseudoscientific. The need for such verification came about because previous "citations" had merely been to a table of contents; no support for classification here existed in the actual articles. I suggest that citations be provided that use the term "pseudoscientific" or an equivalent (this is what the introduction claims of the items included on the list) or else the topics should be removed from this list. Hgilbert 13:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
This article seems a bit of a jumble at the moment. That is, it is split into various sections depending on the type of source for the entries, but then in many cases the entries in those sections don't match the sources, and the sources themselves are not alway really what they appear to be. Firstly, for example, Dianetics and Crystal Healing are in the first section, but do not have sources from scientific organizations and so should probably be in a different section. Secondly, almost everything on the list of "paranormal subjects" is sourced to skeptical groups and/or paranormal groups rather than scientific organizations - one of the few science links (32, the "NASA" link) is actually an advertisement for a radio program!. Thirdly, some of the main sources used in the first section could only euphemistically be called "assertions by mainstream, specialized scientific bodies (e.g., a society of plasma physicists) or one or more national- or regional-level Academies of Science". They are, rather, a motley collection and it is therefore a bit of a stretch to move from these rather singular sources to the conclusion "The following have broad consensus concerning their pseudoscientific status". One source, (33 - a science source), for example, actually says "according to one group studying such phenomena, pseudoscience topics include...", which means that the assertion of a mainstream scientific body has, in this case, simply reported (as a report) what "one group" (CSICOP) has said. And therefore this does not mean we have a mainstream science source asserting the pseudoscientific status of the entries, rather than merely reporting that others have asserted this. I've struck out the last section because it seems the source does then go to call many of those same things pseudoscience.
Having read the comments above, it seems that Hgilbert's suggestion should be extended to the rest of the article so that proper attribution can be presented here and the article can then be reordered accordingly. RedNishin ( talk) 14:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
As for the WP:RS assertion of RedNishin - mainstream scientific bodies are usually much more concerned with evidence-based theories, so I expect quotes will be forthcoming only for those theories which have attained sufficient notoriety to require debunking (Apollo Moon Hoax) or spur a series of double-blind trials (electromagnetic hypersensitivity). The list certainly needs to be organized and pruned, but if you find a candidate for removal (an entry for which a reasonable search did not yield anything resembling a scientific/skeptical consensus), please at least consider discussing it here first. Eldereft ( talk) 19:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The addition of Applied Kinesiology based upon these references is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:RS. None of these articles are peer review. 2 of these refs are written by partisan Quackwatch writers. One is a popular press book. There maybe good reason to include AK on this page, but these references are inadequate. -- Anthon01 ( talk) 10:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
My problems with this citation:
The citation states that
I don't think we're going to find a citation that will discredit all AK. Perhaps one or more that call in to question a particular procedure. This is the problem with a young science, that is, a 'phenomenon' in the early stages of scientific study. Some procedures will be discarded or discredited while other may be substantiated. [4] The same phenomena exists with conventional medicine eg. the history of coronary bypass surgery. Should we add a line for all those conventional medicine techniques that have been discredited? -- Anthon01 ( talk) 12:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
"Many of [these procedures] are known to be absurd (oxygen traversing skin, wet compresses aborting strokes, water “memory,” the iris manifesting a homunculus, “transfer of neural energy” [ie, psychokinesis], etc.); others are highly implausible and easily explained by ordinary mechanisms (applied kinesiology by ideomotor action, colonic “cleansing” by the norm of reciprocity, etc.); and still others are barely plausible but highly unlikely and dangerous and, unlike aspirin, are without any empirical support (eg, St. John's wort as an anti-HIV drug)."
Please comply with WP:CON
Regarding your heading (Improved version). From WP:TALK
# Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it.
- Don't praise in headings: You may wish to commend a particular edit, but this could be seen in a different light by someone who disagrees with the edit!
- Don't be critical in headings: This includes being critical about details of the article. Those details were written by individual editors, who may experience the heading as an attack on them.
- Never address other users in a heading: A heading should invite all editors to respond to the subject addressed.
I'm sure it was an oversight on your part. -- Anthon01 20:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Here it is:
Now what are the complaints? --
Fyslee /
talk 18:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "personal attacks", the comments (which Levine2112 has leveled at me numerous times) were focused on my person, my POV, and my affiliations (and supposed affiliations), all of which violates WP:NPA and WP:TALK. They were not focused on the text and were thus a distraction, so let's leave it behind us and get back to the text...
I did it because, as Eldereft realized (after I pointed it out), it contained a misunderstanding which I corrected. That wording mentioned both chiropractic and physiotherapy. I did not introduce that, but it is perfectly appropriate, it just needed to be tweaked to be accurate. AK is a commonly used chiropractic technique that is officially recognized by the profession. Here's just one example. The ACA even lists it and the percentage of chiropractors who use it (43.2%). The misunderstanding I mention is in regard to the wording that makes it seem like AK is a part of PT. Kinesiology (manual muscle testing, not AK) is part of PT, and AK has no part in PT, even if some few rogue PTs may practice it and any number of other unapproved and quackish practices. That doesn't make those practices a part of PT or an overlapping with PT.
I not only corrected the misunderstanding, I added to the understanding of the subject and provided some excellent references that everyone here will admit are certainly V & RS. The only part that could be considered an "overlap" is that all practitioners of AK use MMT, which is not what is unique to AK. The part that makes AK what it is doesn't overlap with PT at all. The only overlap occurs among chiropractors and AK practitioners: 100% of chiropractors use MMT and 43.2% use AK, and 100% of AK practitioners use MMT & AK. That is an overlap of (respectively) 43.2% and 100%. There is nothing critical or otherwise in that analysis. It is not my POV, but is pure fact based on extremely good references. Its accuracy is unassailable, and it definitely improves the section in several ways.
It should be noted that Hgilbert approves of my ("improved") version, as noted immediately before this section.
Levine2112 has unilaterally deleted it without any proper justification. You will notice that in doing so he has fulfilled his mission here, which is (using his own words) "to protect chiropractic's reputation." [5] The entry no longer mentions it at all, even though AK is an approved chiropractic technique used by nearly half the profession. I will leave it up to others to label that type of editing and editor. (If I state the facts, I might be accused of a personal attack....;-)
I have also changed the heading above. -- Fyslee / talk 06:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Levine2112, you wrote above "1) This statement is misleading." in reference to this: While the practice of applied kinesiology is a commonly used chiropractic technique,[56] and scientific kinesiology (manual muscle strength testing) is a fundamental part of evidence-based orthopædic physical therapy, AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity.
What part is misleading? -- Fyslee / talk 06:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
You references are not WP:RS. Chiropractic is currently being peer-reviewed. That process began in earnest in the early 1980's. The AMA lifted it's opposition to professional relationship between DCs and MDs in 1993 or thereabouts. -- Anthon01 ( talk) 23:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
As has been noted above, the current categorization ("Concepts" vs. "Topics") might be taken to be misleading, and at the very least reduces the utility of the article by splitting the alphabetical list. Pretty close to every entry is considered controversial by at least someone, else there would be nobody espousing these theories. I therefore propose that we:
Eldereft ( talk) 11:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy this entry was made. It just underpins something I've been considering for awhile. I'd say this article is out of control. Everyone get a chance to add whatever they don't believe. So next will add Buddhism, Judaism, Satanism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Muslim, Hinduism, Atheism etc ... I think maybe Levine2112 has the right idea or at least a better idea. Make the page just about what "mainstream, specialized scientific bodies" consider Pseudo and get rid of all this tabloid type stuff. Leave the rest to the wacky websites. -- Anthon01 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to delete the current subheadings under astrology. At the very least, the wording which seems to imply that the only reason Western astrology qualifies as pseudoscience is its lack of a sidereal calendar smacks of nNPOV and needs to be corrected. Both of the references I added tonight explicitly do not rely on any particular tradition. Alternatively, a better list of subheadings could be generated using List of astrological traditions (checking against Category:Astrology for completeness), but I think the current main heading text would suffice. Possibly another sentence could be added briefly outlining why this cannot be scientific. Eldereft 07:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The idea has been toyed around with of limiting this list to just items which the highest level of scientific resources deem to be pseudoscience or pseudoscientific. These highest levels would include what is currently described as the inclusion criteria of the top-most list: The following have broad consensus concerning their pseudoscientific status. Indicative of this are assertions by mainstream, specialized scientific bodies (e.g., a society of plasma physicists) or one or more national- or regional-level Academies of Science. This list article has been contentious since its inception and the edit history makes it clear that the most of the contention is not derived from the top list, but rather the subsequent lists including "Topics which skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific or closely associated with it" and "Disputed subjects". In my opinion, these sections will never be free from contention because they are highly subjective, violate NPOV and come off making the rest of this article seem like a POV Fork. My proposal here is to remove these sections. Thoughts? -- Levine2112 discuss 23:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Note that I did not say that all of the tags were correct. It is not the place of this list to make judgment calls about pseudoscience or what we believe constitutes it. That is the place of the RS'. If you have an issue with Graphology being placed in pseudoscience, discuss it on that article's talk page. Not here. I am still confused by your mention of the "whim of skeptics". Do skeptics run about and mark everything pseudoscience? Last I checked they did not. As they have been used as RS in other articles, they surely have some method for determining pseudoscience. And in regards to bowing to political whims, I'd like to actually see proof of the statement. And with regards to the comment about chiropractic, that is a giant can of worms. Baegis ( talk) 19:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with separating the article. It's kinda of like mixing science with pseudoscience. The analogy isn't perfect. The point is that the classifications in the first group are of a much higher order, then let's say the beliefs of a skeptical group. Anthon01 ( talk) 21:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
There has been extensive discussion about needing clear citations that point to the pseudoscientific nature of subjects listed here. This included the need to remove items that do not have such citations. If verifiable citations cannot be found - and there have been months to do this - the items should be archived and brought back in when/if verification is possible. The discussion has been sitting on the talk page for several months and no one has expressed any doubts about the policy. I proposed on Dec. 4th to wait one more week and then begin archiving. It's 12 days later, and I began. One editor is reverting the archiving. What do people think about this? Do we want unverified items on this list? Hgilbert ( talk) 18:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Several months ago, someone (me!) got the idea of only using sources from science academies. We immediately ran into the problem of a horribly-underpopulated list. It turns out that these academies only denounce the pseudosciences that make their way into business, education, and government. So next went to works from mainstream skeptical bodies, which are in the business of writing about any pseudoscience that pops up on a very sensitive radar. We didn't think it appropriate to throw them in with the academies, so the pseudosciences that only received attention from the skeptical bodies were separated out. Save for a couple people who didn't want their pet hobby on the list no matter what, everyone was happy with this solution. But of course, new Wikipedians visited the list and started objecting without reading the pages of compromise that went into the present version of the article. And here we are today! Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I know that this has been on the list in the past and is guaranteed to be contentious, but acupuncture is probably the most commonly practiced and researched pseudoscience (with the possible exception of chiropractic). As such, this list suffers disproportionately by this omission. Supporting references include the NIH, Mayo Clinic, and AMA, as well as preeminent skeptical organizations. As with every entry, it is of course necessary to outline the legitimate scientific enterprise associated with acupuncture. Please find below for your 'let us please bring this to consensus without an edit war' pleasure, my attempt at an immpeccably sourced NPOV entry:
Acupuncture is a form of
vitalism in which fine needles are inserted and manipulated at specific
acupuncture points to rebalance the flow of
qi. Within the context of
evidence-based medicine, acupuncture has been used successfully to treat a variety of conditions, mostly related to pain or nausea.
[7]
[8]
[9] There is less evidence of its efficacy against a variety of illnesses and physical ailments for which it has been used.
[10]
[11] No scientific evidence exists for the traditional metaphysical mechanisms of action, anatomical theories, or precise clinical placements of acupuncture.
[12]
[13]
[14]
[15]
[16] Patient response rates and magnitudes and neurochemical and biophysical responses are all consistent with placebo response.
[17]
[18]
[19]
[20]
[21]
[22]
Note that this includes only pure needling; heating, lasing, applying current and suchlike modified modalities would to my mind be better served as subheadings. I also omitted any reference to the dangers of relying solely on acupuncture as a medical diagnostic/treatment tool, as that strays perhaps outside the purview of just a list entry. I also also omitted direct citation to a couple of well-designed studies on sham acupuncture (no statistical difference) and neuroimaging studies (people feel better when we think we are being treated) to avoid any possibility of
WP:OR by cherry-picking studies. The issue of lack of worldwide and historical agreement on the placement of acupuncture points, however, might be added to the entry if anyone thinks it useful.
Eldereft (
talk) 10:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Eldereft
Appreciate your work on the proposed entry, though some of your statements (e.g. re placebo) are not consistent with sources cited or with other sources. For example, you say "Patient response rates and magnitudes and neurochemical and biophysical responses are all consistent with placebo response" and cite the NIH statement, but that source says "the quality or quantity of the research evidence is not sufficient to provide firm evidence of efficacy at this time" in reference to "many other conditions (that) have received some attention in the literature", not all conditions. Indeed, that report says (albeit arguably a bit too boldly, cf. Cochrane et al) that "There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy" and "There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain", etc. If you want a source arguing acu is just placebo, the NIH statement isn't it. Have a look also at the sources under Acupuncture#Scientific_research_into_efficacy.
However, the main problem with your proposed addition is that I don't see any source from any body of scientists or so-called scientific-skeptical groups stating that acu is a pseudoscience. Per WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience, attributable evidence of scientific consensus is necessary to use Category:Pseudoscience, and evidence of a sig POV that the topic is pseudoscientific is necessary to mention PS in the article. For this list, we have agreed upon an intermediate threshold (an agreement consistent with WP:CLS): a statement by a group. I see essays by individuals (Carroll) and a piece on the UK Skeptics site, but not a group statement. Perhaps an entry from Shermer's " The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience" would suffice, since we have agreed that that publication represents some degree of consensus from the Skeptics Society (I guess by virtue of that group having an editorial board and board of advisors).
So, if we can find such a group-based source, and tweak your entry here and there, sure. Does this make sense to you? Criticisms of aspects of acupuncture as pseudoscience do exist in the article, btw (I put some of them there myself), so the issue is not being ignored. regards, Jim Butler( talk) 21:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) OK, finally some time for a reply. I still don't see any of these references making the cut, for various reasons: i.e., the sources don't say acu is pseudoscience, a/o they are individuals rather than groups, a/o they fail WP:SOURCES. I don't think a bunch of "not quite" sources taken together suffice, any more than it's possible to become "a little bit pregnant" from a series of near-misses. There is a certain threshold to meet.
The one statement by a scientific body group (AMA [19]) does not say that acu is a pseudoscience or anything in that ballpark (e.g., a pretend or spurious science, or that it is misrepresented as science). It appears that you are making the leap of assuming that a treatment whose efficacy is unproven or disputed must be pseudoscience. This sounds like WP:SYN to me, and it also leads to the absurd result of including any and all treatments lacking gold-standard EBM backing (see last paragraph here, from the Institute of Medicine). Same goes for Mayo Clinic [17], but even more so given context, as with NIH.
John Jackson, at UKSkeptics [20], does call acu pseudoscience. However, there is nothing there to indicate that his essay is a statement by the group, or a list of editors or advisors. Nor does UK Skeptics appear to meet WP:N, and our inclusion criteria do specifically say "notable skeptical bodies". Additionally, the source does not appear to meet WP:SOURCES, being self-published, and has no references. A pretty bad source, imo, also because it is factually wrong on the origins of the idea of qi in TCM (it did not originate with Soulie de Morant), and to boot, it looks like the author may have lifted (with minor modifications) some of the WP article (see Acupuncture#Other_injury) without attribution. This source is a great example of why we need V RS's. Really kind of ironic not to be rigorous here. (I agree with WP:INDY that articles on fringe topics, with little more than self-published sources, can suffer from vanity and NPOV issues, and thus require balancing with a Quackwatch-type, self-published source. But for notable topics like acu, we should use notable sources, and stick close to them.)
The Stenger article at CSI (formerly CSICOP) [16], similarly, is not evidently a statement by that group. (Are CSI self-pub as well? It gets hard to tell.)
There is one source, NCAHF [22], that comes close to our criteria. As above, I don't accept the idea that disputed efficacy = pseudoscience. Nor is it clear that their characterization of acu as non-scientific equates to pseudo; classical Chinese medicine predates science and never pretended to be science. But more importantly, WP:SOURCES says that NCAHF's self-published stuff should be used primarily in their own article, and in this case, it is: NCAHF#Acupuncture.
OK -- I don't mean to be dense or to wikilawyer here. Just arguing for adequate sourcing. Even from the biggest-picture, WP:IAR standpoint, I don't think that dubious sources on skepticism are good for either scientific thinking or for this project. I don't doubt that characterization of acu (or aspects of it) as PS exists, but I don't see enough to meet this list's criteria.
I did consider suggesting that we loosen the inclusion criteria, and allow the second tier to include not just statements by groups, but statements by any source meeting WP:N and WP:V. I think we should not, per WP:DIRECTORY. I don't think it's within the scope of the project to include every opinion any notable person has expressed on pseudoscience, bad politicians, restaurants in Paris, etc. The "group" threshold is important to meet WP:V and WP:WEIGHT, and we should make sure that in the case of skeptic groups, they meet both WP:N and WP:SOURCES. Otherwise, we just get a random collection of stuff related to pseudoscience, and for that, the reader can simply google or check Special:Whatlinkshere/Pseudoscience. regards, Jim Butler( talk)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
1. As others have said, we have to seperate between stupidity and pseudosciences. Fairies is stupid but not a scientific stupidity.
2. We have to make it clearer that is psuedoscientific about a subject and that is not. To just write Tunguska event and nothing more, makes is seem that the Tungaska event didn't happen. This is wrong. We should write something like:
Antimatter Tungaska event - the belief that the Tungaska event was not caused by a meteor but by antimatter or similary anomalous causes.
Other subjects that may need rewriting is
Should we not add religion, god and soul as psudoscientific concepts?
3. Some things are not big enough to include. Laundry balls - never heard about. Delete?
4. We should seperate between obscure and parody pseudoscience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.108.234 ( talk) 00:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Reko 23:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Should the bible codes be listed here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 ( talk) 16:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
The list as structured has conflicting purposes. Is it for anything called pseudoscientific by any critic or for areas where there is a clear consensus that a subject is pseudoscientific? If the latter, evidence of this should be on the article's page (and/or presented here). If the former, the article is misleadingly (and leadingly) titled, as are sections thereof. Some clarification is needed - you can't have it both ways (i.e. include disputed areas but title this article as if only undisputed items are included). Hgilbert 10:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I have moved certain subjects from the main list to a disputed area. References are supplied in the article for the dispute (except for biorhythms, which still needs positive citations). Hgilbert 13:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that there is a range between genuinely disputed areas (e.g. acupuncture), marginally disputed areas and areas only disputed by fringe elements (e.g. evolution, or the roundness of the earth for that matter). There are also areas, however, that are clearly not pseudoscientific (e.g. meditation, ball lightning, subliminal perception) on this list. Whether the latter two exist or not is an ongoing scientific question; to prejudge this is bad science. The Wikipedia entry on ball lightning certainly indicates that there is serious scientific research on the question.
The article says of the areas listed: "a majority of the work ... done in them (or having been done) is of a pseudoscientific nature." This claim is not proven for quite a number of the items, either here or in the corresponding articles. In fact, several of them assert that the contrary is true; that serious work is ongoing. An unsupported claim should either be dropped or proven. If the article is simply a collection of everything skeptic groups, or even single individuals, (both of which are by definition not neutral) consider pseudoscientific, it should be clear about this too.
The terminology and qualifications for being listed should be brought into line. Hgilbert 18:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with this approach, but the list's name and the introduction should then be changed. You can't include ball lightning in a list of pseudosciences, or assert that it is a pseudoscience, when there is ongoing and genuine scientific research into the subject. Let's decide what we want and then title and introduce it accordingly. A broadly inclusive policy will require a title such as "List of concepts critiqued as pseudoscientific". Hgilbert 01:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
All right, I've gone through the recent archives and the arbitration proceedings. Some questions: First of all, I cannot see many of the footnotes (those formatted like this: {{ref|[S]}}. They are invisible to my browser somehow. Do they exist?
I see problems that remain with the following areas:
In some cases, there are citations in this article supporting a topic's scientific foundation, but none supporting the claim that they are pseudoscientific or undermining this foundation!!! I have fact-tagged these items.
Finally, whatever standard the article applies, documentation needs to be present as to how the topic meets this standard. Hgilbert 16:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the present lead section meets that criterion. Hgilbert 18:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like to call into question the reasoning for adding the ref tag to the ball lightning entry. What would properly satisfy the editor in question who added the tag in order to have it removed? There are numerous ref's that can added from the ball lightning entry to support the anecdotal evidence, but is it really worth adding more ref's to the page that already has a ton? From reading through the ref's on the entry, there does not seem to be a single entry that discusses more than 2 specific instances. Thoughts? Cheers!!! Baegis 19:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you're right about it meeting the current criteria. I have therefore moved ball lightning to a section for natural phenomena for which there is only anecdotal evidence, and have therefore been doubted by skeptics, but which mainstream science does not question. Hgilbert 10:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned above, many of the references in this article seem not to function (those formatted with {{ref}} templates, in particular). Shall we remove them, or does someone know something I don't? Hgilbert 23:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like to replace dead links with requests for citations if there is no other solution. Hgilbert 18:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, fixed. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
If we stay with the current criteria for entries in this list, I suggest that we change the article title. The situation with ball lightning makes this evident; try this topic in Google Scholar and a host of scientific studies of the phenomenon come up, including book length works. The New Scientist article cited above makes it evident that there is no longer serious doubt about the existence of the phenomenon, only about its cause. The Wikipedia Ball lightning article records no dispute about the topic's scientific validity. Yet, because it is (apparently) mentioned in a single skeptical work, probably with no citations at all to document its pseudoscientific nature, it can be included in this list.
If an area of serious scientific study can be listed here on such a basis, then the list's title cannot claim that its entries are definitively pseudosciences - only that someone, somewhere, has claimed this, even if the scientific consensus is overwhelmingly against that individual or body. How about "List of topics ever termed pseudoscientific"? Then we get to include psychoanalysis, cryogenics, Zen and sunspot cycles (all in Williams' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience). Hgilbert 02:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
There are, of course, areas like this, and we should be careful to avoid tainting a field with a tar brush meant for certain of its interpreters. This may need review, as well; are we careful enough with this distinction for the general reader?
I was discussing a more general divergence between the criteria for inclusion and the title, however. If one hundred scientists have done serious work in a field but one skeptical writer has called the field pseudoscience, the field qualifies for inclusion here according to the list's criteria. But it is not verifiable to call the field a pseudoscience, merely a field someone has once mentioned in this context. That's different than a list of verifiably pseudoscientific fields, meaning there is a broader consensus than a single individual in a contested area.
Note that I am not here concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus towards pseudoscience except for a few fringe supporters/investigators. I am concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus toward science but a few fringe skeptics. This seems to be the problematic situation where the article title implies a consensus that need not exist for inclusion here. Hgilbert 16:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's the situation with ball lightning. It appears to be a subject of considerable serious scientific research - there are pages and pages of book-length and journal treatments on Google Scholar. But one encyclopedia appears to consider it pseudoscientific, and this apparently solely because people have seen the phenomenon often (which is all anecdotal evidence means). We only have analytical evidence that things fall down when dropped, for example, but gravity is not considered pseudoscience. Hgilbert 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the point. Hgilbert 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
And then let's make sure the title reflects the criteria. Hgilbert 00:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't personally consider eugenics to fall under the definition of "pseudoscience" proper, but it is often, often referred to as such. My thoughts on it might be that it could fall into a somewhat separate category here, if others agreed: things often referred to as pseudoscience, often because specific historical forms of it engaged in what we might call pseudoscience in retrospect, but depending on the current definition of the term may or may not fall under any strict definition of pseudoscience. But maybe that is a bit too wordy. Anyway, just a thought I had. -- 24.147.86.187 20:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I understand that User:Hgilbert is a fan of anthroposophy, so that may explain why anthroposphy was so unduly characterized with kid gloves. In particular, the evaluation of the sources discussing this subject was obviously biased. Classifying anthroposophy under the categorization of "conflicting studies" is quite disingenuous as the subject has absolutely zero support from the scientific community for its pseudoscientific aspects. ScienceApologist 15:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I just looked at the source referenced to include anthroposophy and anthroposophic medicine in this article, the Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. As far as I can see, the relevant article does not refer to either of the two as pseudoscience, nor does it use any phrasing equivalent to this. At the moment, including the two in this list appears to be Original research. The articles are written by a person with no academic qualifications; the only critical commentary in the article - which has nothiing to do with pseudoscience - is cited to a self-published website. I'm not clear how this is an encyclopediac source, and it clearly does not support the entry here. Hgilbert 02:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The cited encyclopedia labels it an "important pseudoscientific concept." I'm not sure what else you could want. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Please follow Wikipedia standards for reliability and verifiability. Unless a source does not conform to these, please do not remove it arbitrarily (i.e. because it contradicts your POV). In addition, when an active discussion is in hand, it is bad manners to peremptorily take one-sided action. Hgilbert 11:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Above a few editors suggest we should assess the various sources on offer and decide which are the most reliable and/or authoritative and then come to decision here, on that basis, about whether something is or is not pseudoscience. The editors further suggest that once that decision has been reached here, the less authoritative/reliable sources (in our view) should be ignored completely and the article should then state (as fact) only that viewpoint that we have decided here is the most authoritative/reliable source.
This runs directly counter to Wiki policy in at least two ways. First, it is almost the definition of original research. That is, we research the topic, we assess the evidence, we assess the credibility/authority/reliability of the sources, and we then write our conclusions into the article as fact. Second, it runs roughshod over the notion that all notable viewpoints should be expressed. That is, it means that once we have decided what the truth is, we cherry pick those sources we used for our decision and pretend that competing viewpoints/sources don't exist.
On both counts, then, the proposal should be roundly rejected. The problem here is not solved by coming up with new ways to circumvent Wiki policy. The problem here stems from the fact that whether something is or is not a pseudoscience is not a straightforward matter of fact, but is instead, at best, a complex value judgment. And when we add to that problem the problem of the various meanings/uses of "pseudoscience" (one fairly tight definition that includes almost nothing, one fairly loose one that includes almost everything including many sciences, and one that is simply thrown about as a pejorative by various professional "skeptics"), we can begin to see the underlying difficulties with the article as a whole. That is, the title suggests that there is a list to be compiled in a fairly straightforward manner, but the actuality shows that there isn't.
My suggestion, then, is: change the title to "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience", and then in each case state explicitly in what sense something has been so labeled; or else give it up. Anything else is, as stated above, a mere piece of POV pushing sleight of hand. Davkal 13:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
1. Nobody was saying that sources don't have to be weighed and appropriate levels of coverage given in the article - this is the essence of Wiki policy. The reason the proposal above runs completely counter to this is that the suggestion there is to weigh the sources here (on the talk page) and then write the article from the viewpoint of only the "winning" source" - the "losing" sources being left unrepresented in the article. This, as noted, is the antithesis of presenting all notable viewpoints because it is the explicit removal of some/many notable viewpoints/sources in order to present a seemingly factual situation in the article (i.e., x is pseudoscience) where no such certainty exists in actuality. The whole point of including all notable viewpoints being to prevent this kind of thing.
2. "Skeptics" such as Robert Carroll and Michael Shermer do throw the word "pseudoscience about as a pejorative and this article does even worse. That is, things are included in this article on no other basis than they are included in a book called the 'encyclopedia of pseudoscience' - a title that was probably chosen for it's rhetorical appeal rather than any actual analysis, carefully considered or otherwise. How else can one explain the inclusion of "trolls, elves and pixies" in such a book. And this is why there is a pressing need for the sense in which "pseudoscience" is being used to be explained in each case - the refusal to do this, or even to acknowledge the appallingly loose manner in which some items have been deemed pseudoscience is the clumsy piece of sleight of hand referred to above. It's not that far removed from having a list called "people born out of wedlock" and including in it everyone who (my friends) have ever called a bastard. That this is being done is amply illustrated in the "ours is not to reason why" response which is so regularly used to respond to anyone questioning anything in the list. Davkal 17:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to do any research to know that fairies, elves and trolls etc. are not pseudoscience in anything other than a pejorative and largely empty sense of the term meaning roughly: supernatural or mythological or thought previously by some to exist but now thought not to. One only needs a modicum of intelligence. The point being, the one you don't even try to address - preferring instead a non-argument,is that if a list includes, say, elves, then it is not a list of pseudosciences whatever the commercial or rhetorical or pseudointellectual or pseudodscientific thinking that lay behind the choice to include "pseudoscience" in the title. And the further point being, that once we have shown by reference to the inclusion of, say, elves, in such a book, that the title cannot really be taken as evidence that what is included in it s pseudoscience, we should stop using the mere inclusion of things in such a book as a catch all response to anybody who questions why something is included in our list. Unless, of course, you want to honestly name the article "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience" or some such thing. But then if you did that you wouldn't be able to push your POV that the things here are pseudoscience in actual fact. Which is the whole point of the article after all. Davkal 18:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let's calm down. I do agree that X's mere inclusion in the table of contents of a book with a title "Encyclopedia of Y" does not qualify as verifiable evidence that X is an example of Y, absent any content in the article that supports this further. I would hope that anyone with any sense for scientific proof, or academic standards generally, would recognize this as a minimum standard.
This is especially true in the case at hand. Heliocentrism, Thomas Kuhn, Occam's Razor, William Harvey, Meteorites and Kraken all have articles devoted to them in another encyclopedia of pseudoscience. Shall we list these as examples of pseudoscience, too? Otherwise, we will need some content in the article itself that justifies the classification. Hgilbert 22:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Three Points: 1. All that has been said up to now is that mere inclusion in the book, irrespective of further content is enough. If these things are in the book then they are pseudoscience, according to that line of argument. But now the argument has changed to require some further statement or clarification in the relevant sections of the book, which Hgilbert has already noted is missing in other cases already included here. That is why it is relevant. 2. Following on from 1) and the point I made above, once we have ample examples of things that are clearly not pseudoscience listed in an encyclopedia of pseudoscience, it is going to take much more than mere inclusion in such a book to make the case for something being a pseudoscince. 3. If you, Baegis, think threats of blocks for personal attacks where no personal attacks are made, and references to past "crimes", and accusations of trolling, followed by requests to stop contributing here are not threats, harassment and intimidation, then I suggest you familiarise yourself with the meanings of the words "comment on content, not on contributors".
Davkal 00:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
4. Points: 1. I never said you threatened me with a block, Simoes did, just above: "Unless you're aiming to get yourself blocked yet again...". 2. To call someones arguments "rants", and accuse them of trolling, and make no real other points about content, is hardly observing wiki policy with regard to the way to respect the views of others. 3. Whether or not the points I make help the article or not is something that only time will tell and is not for you to decide. And 4. the point now under discussion is whether we should reject the argument, much (ab)used previously, and require something more than mere inclusion in a book with pseudoscience in its title to warrant inclusion in the list. The general view now seems to be that we should. Davkal 00:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
This edit [3] removes material which is irrelevant to whether anthroposophy is pseudoscience or not. Whether there are benefits to anthroposophy is irrelevant to whether they are considered psuedoscience or have psuedoscientific characteristics. These points can be listed at the relevant pages (anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine) but do not belong on this page. ScienceApologist 16:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Let's please avoid editing and reverting the controversial entries on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine until there is a consensus on what they should say. Merci bien, EPadmirateur 20:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
In an article with almost no academic sources, and almost exclusively referencing the table of contents of one book as its source, it is a little sad that real citations (to academic journals and books) with clear and obvious relevance are being removed by one user. I am referring to the anthroposophy citations, one about reductions in atopy (through empirical testing and published in the Lancet, which of all sources should be acceptable here) and one about the validity of its epistemological basis. Is it scientific, in order to make a point, to delete Lancet articles and keep citations to people with absolutely no academic or professional qualifications in the field, and who have been judged intellectually incompetent to comment on any field by a verifiable source, as has Dugan, the author of the article in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia presently cited? Hgilbert 16:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I have added the disputed tag since there are many serious concerns about this article that have not been addressed. The article excludes presenting notable views by a piece of sleight of hand between the title and the explanation of content (neutrality). Even given the explanation of content the topics included are cherry picked (neutrality again). The definitions of some entries are ridiculous and many ludicrous opinions are presented as fact (factual accuracy). Davkal 20:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Hgilbert disputes for the same reasons. So have a number of others above in the last few days. These points have never been addressed. I have reverted your vandalism. Sockpuppet/meatpuppet who cares. Davkal 21:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
This looks like bullying.--
Filll 22:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with expanding the list and encourage people to do so. Obviously some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience are not pseudoscience at all (for example, biographies of people like Carl Sagan), but the encyclopedia includes other examples of pseudoscience that are clearly not listed here. No one ever said that the article was exhaustive! ScienceApologist 22:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that I also agree with the neutrality in dispute tag: "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." Rather than get into a revert war, perhaps we can discuss the points that motivated that tag? Perhaps the article's editors will allow countervailing evidence to be presented for a listing? So that the article can present a balanced, neutral point of view? -- EPadmirateur 00:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I hope we all share in a consensus that:
If we do have such consensus, we can go on to evaluate case by case. If we don't, I support the disputed tag. Hgilbert 00:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Citing Shermer's contention that X is a pseudoscientific concept is not presenting it as fact. As a notable skeptic and trained researcher, Shermer's opinion on what constitutes pseudoscience is simply being used as a criterion for inclusion in this list, not to make value judgements about X. Also, I think it is a bit absurd to assert that someone needs to be an expert in a particular field in order to objectively evaluate whether there is a scientific basis to the claims made in that field. Shermer is clearly an expert in general scientific principles and experimental methodology, which is all that is required to objectively evaluate most scientific claims. — DIEGO talk 03:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Hgilbert's proposal. Unfortunately, after reading the arguments on the talk page it seems that some editors want to use this list to discuss the validity of each individual concept, which would be better suited to the individual articles on the concepts. The introduction to this list makes it clear that concepts included in the list are "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations within the international scientific community, and/or skeptical organizations." Therefore, any evaluation of sources should focus solely on whether the concept meets this criteria. If a reliable source within the scientific or skeptical community considers X to be pseudoscientific, then it should be included. Any contradictory evidence from a WP:RS supporting the claims of X clearly needs to be included in X's article in order to maintain NPOV, but is irrelevant to X's inclusion in this list. This list should not be a forum for competing sources. That said, inclusion in the table of contents of an encyclopedia of pseudoscience (without a statement in an article explicitly labeling it pseudoscience [or an accepted synonym]) does not seem to meet the burden of evidence. Surely, we can do better than that. If an item on the list is truly considered pseudoscience by the scientific and/or skeptical community, it shouldn't be difficult to find impeccable, easily verifiable sources to confirm this. — DIEGO talk 03:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
What is the point of having an article with a title that says "things that are x", when it is necessary for the first three paragraphs in the article to explain why virtually everything in the article may not actually be an example of x at all. That is, the first para has the qualifier "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations..." (which means someone has simply called them PS). And this is further qualified in the second para by: "they may have explicitly called a field or concept "pseudoscience" or used synonyms, some of which are identified in the references" (which means they may not have even been called PS, but something like it, some of which we'll tell you about). And this, unbelievably, is then further qualified in the third para by, "Some subjects in this list may be legitimate fields of research and/or have legitimate scientific research ongoing within them" (which is to say that they may actually be scientifically valid after all - ie, not PS). So, in short, we have a "list of pseudosciences" which contains things that have been called pseudoscience, except for those that haven't, and even those that have might not be PS in any event. As Butthead so succinctly put it: STOP in the name of all that does not suck! Davkal 00:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
We need clarity about whether evidence unrelated to demarcation is allowed here. In the anthroposophic medicine and EHS entries, for example, studies are included that relate to efficacy or lack of effect found. Do all such studies belong to the articles on these subjects, and not here?
There are deeper questions here, some of which we can't go into due to our limited function as editors drawing upon others' conclusions: is something pseudoscience because it is not testable (in which case no empirical evidence, pro or con, could be brought by definition) or is something pseudoscience because it is tested and found wanting? Can something be pseudoscience if empirical tests show efficacy - do not positive results in rigorous, peer-reviewed trials provide scientific proof? Hgilbert 08:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Hypnosis isn't a pseudo-science. Past life regression and other silly claims are, but hypnosis is a well documented subset of psychology, sometimes also called "altered state" or "suggestible state" in the literature. The mechanism of how it works might be disputed, but the fact it works is not. This is different to, for example, homeopathy, which has no mechanism and no proof of efficacy 88.172.132.94 17:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose that, while the page is protected and we cannot enter new material there, we should gather the justifying quotations that are being used to classify entries here as pseudoscience. (It may be that we need to discuss criteria here too.) I suggest that we use this space to list quotations for each entry that does not already have a quotation (not just citation) that justifies classifying the topic as pseudoscience. I'll make a start with two categories that look like they contain controversial areas: Hgilbert 00:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I have moved mysticism et al. to the disputed area, as it is unusual to consider religious and spiritual phenomena pseudoscientific and because we have no confirmation of anything more than a listing in a table of contents in an encyclopedia as a verifiable source for most of these being included here at all. Hgilbert 20:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
On 2 November 2007 I requested verification that the entries above are actually cited as pseudoscientific. The need for such verification came about because previous "citations" had merely been to a table of contents; no support for classification here existed in the actual articles. I suggest that citations be provided that use the term "pseudoscientific" or an equivalent (this is what the introduction claims of the items included on the list) or else the topics should be removed from this list. Hgilbert 13:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
This article seems a bit of a jumble at the moment. That is, it is split into various sections depending on the type of source for the entries, but then in many cases the entries in those sections don't match the sources, and the sources themselves are not alway really what they appear to be. Firstly, for example, Dianetics and Crystal Healing are in the first section, but do not have sources from scientific organizations and so should probably be in a different section. Secondly, almost everything on the list of "paranormal subjects" is sourced to skeptical groups and/or paranormal groups rather than scientific organizations - one of the few science links (32, the "NASA" link) is actually an advertisement for a radio program!. Thirdly, some of the main sources used in the first section could only euphemistically be called "assertions by mainstream, specialized scientific bodies (e.g., a society of plasma physicists) or one or more national- or regional-level Academies of Science". They are, rather, a motley collection and it is therefore a bit of a stretch to move from these rather singular sources to the conclusion "The following have broad consensus concerning their pseudoscientific status". One source, (33 - a science source), for example, actually says "according to one group studying such phenomena, pseudoscience topics include...", which means that the assertion of a mainstream scientific body has, in this case, simply reported (as a report) what "one group" (CSICOP) has said. And therefore this does not mean we have a mainstream science source asserting the pseudoscientific status of the entries, rather than merely reporting that others have asserted this. I've struck out the last section because it seems the source does then go to call many of those same things pseudoscience.
Having read the comments above, it seems that Hgilbert's suggestion should be extended to the rest of the article so that proper attribution can be presented here and the article can then be reordered accordingly. RedNishin ( talk) 14:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
As for the WP:RS assertion of RedNishin - mainstream scientific bodies are usually much more concerned with evidence-based theories, so I expect quotes will be forthcoming only for those theories which have attained sufficient notoriety to require debunking (Apollo Moon Hoax) or spur a series of double-blind trials (electromagnetic hypersensitivity). The list certainly needs to be organized and pruned, but if you find a candidate for removal (an entry for which a reasonable search did not yield anything resembling a scientific/skeptical consensus), please at least consider discussing it here first. Eldereft ( talk) 19:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The addition of Applied Kinesiology based upon these references is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:RS. None of these articles are peer review. 2 of these refs are written by partisan Quackwatch writers. One is a popular press book. There maybe good reason to include AK on this page, but these references are inadequate. -- Anthon01 ( talk) 10:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
My problems with this citation:
The citation states that
I don't think we're going to find a citation that will discredit all AK. Perhaps one or more that call in to question a particular procedure. This is the problem with a young science, that is, a 'phenomenon' in the early stages of scientific study. Some procedures will be discarded or discredited while other may be substantiated. [4] The same phenomena exists with conventional medicine eg. the history of coronary bypass surgery. Should we add a line for all those conventional medicine techniques that have been discredited? -- Anthon01 ( talk) 12:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
"Many of [these procedures] are known to be absurd (oxygen traversing skin, wet compresses aborting strokes, water “memory,” the iris manifesting a homunculus, “transfer of neural energy” [ie, psychokinesis], etc.); others are highly implausible and easily explained by ordinary mechanisms (applied kinesiology by ideomotor action, colonic “cleansing” by the norm of reciprocity, etc.); and still others are barely plausible but highly unlikely and dangerous and, unlike aspirin, are without any empirical support (eg, St. John's wort as an anti-HIV drug)."
Please comply with WP:CON
Regarding your heading (Improved version). From WP:TALK
# Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it.
- Don't praise in headings: You may wish to commend a particular edit, but this could be seen in a different light by someone who disagrees with the edit!
- Don't be critical in headings: This includes being critical about details of the article. Those details were written by individual editors, who may experience the heading as an attack on them.
- Never address other users in a heading: A heading should invite all editors to respond to the subject addressed.
I'm sure it was an oversight on your part. -- Anthon01 20:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Here it is:
Now what are the complaints? --
Fyslee /
talk 18:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "personal attacks", the comments (which Levine2112 has leveled at me numerous times) were focused on my person, my POV, and my affiliations (and supposed affiliations), all of which violates WP:NPA and WP:TALK. They were not focused on the text and were thus a distraction, so let's leave it behind us and get back to the text...
I did it because, as Eldereft realized (after I pointed it out), it contained a misunderstanding which I corrected. That wording mentioned both chiropractic and physiotherapy. I did not introduce that, but it is perfectly appropriate, it just needed to be tweaked to be accurate. AK is a commonly used chiropractic technique that is officially recognized by the profession. Here's just one example. The ACA even lists it and the percentage of chiropractors who use it (43.2%). The misunderstanding I mention is in regard to the wording that makes it seem like AK is a part of PT. Kinesiology (manual muscle testing, not AK) is part of PT, and AK has no part in PT, even if some few rogue PTs may practice it and any number of other unapproved and quackish practices. That doesn't make those practices a part of PT or an overlapping with PT.
I not only corrected the misunderstanding, I added to the understanding of the subject and provided some excellent references that everyone here will admit are certainly V & RS. The only part that could be considered an "overlap" is that all practitioners of AK use MMT, which is not what is unique to AK. The part that makes AK what it is doesn't overlap with PT at all. The only overlap occurs among chiropractors and AK practitioners: 100% of chiropractors use MMT and 43.2% use AK, and 100% of AK practitioners use MMT & AK. That is an overlap of (respectively) 43.2% and 100%. There is nothing critical or otherwise in that analysis. It is not my POV, but is pure fact based on extremely good references. Its accuracy is unassailable, and it definitely improves the section in several ways.
It should be noted that Hgilbert approves of my ("improved") version, as noted immediately before this section.
Levine2112 has unilaterally deleted it without any proper justification. You will notice that in doing so he has fulfilled his mission here, which is (using his own words) "to protect chiropractic's reputation." [5] The entry no longer mentions it at all, even though AK is an approved chiropractic technique used by nearly half the profession. I will leave it up to others to label that type of editing and editor. (If I state the facts, I might be accused of a personal attack....;-)
I have also changed the heading above. -- Fyslee / talk 06:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Levine2112, you wrote above "1) This statement is misleading." in reference to this: While the practice of applied kinesiology is a commonly used chiropractic technique,[56] and scientific kinesiology (manual muscle strength testing) is a fundamental part of evidence-based orthopædic physical therapy, AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity.
What part is misleading? -- Fyslee / talk 06:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
You references are not WP:RS. Chiropractic is currently being peer-reviewed. That process began in earnest in the early 1980's. The AMA lifted it's opposition to professional relationship between DCs and MDs in 1993 or thereabouts. -- Anthon01 ( talk) 23:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
As has been noted above, the current categorization ("Concepts" vs. "Topics") might be taken to be misleading, and at the very least reduces the utility of the article by splitting the alphabetical list. Pretty close to every entry is considered controversial by at least someone, else there would be nobody espousing these theories. I therefore propose that we:
Eldereft ( talk) 11:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy this entry was made. It just underpins something I've been considering for awhile. I'd say this article is out of control. Everyone get a chance to add whatever they don't believe. So next will add Buddhism, Judaism, Satanism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Muslim, Hinduism, Atheism etc ... I think maybe Levine2112 has the right idea or at least a better idea. Make the page just about what "mainstream, specialized scientific bodies" consider Pseudo and get rid of all this tabloid type stuff. Leave the rest to the wacky websites. -- Anthon01 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to delete the current subheadings under astrology. At the very least, the wording which seems to imply that the only reason Western astrology qualifies as pseudoscience is its lack of a sidereal calendar smacks of nNPOV and needs to be corrected. Both of the references I added tonight explicitly do not rely on any particular tradition. Alternatively, a better list of subheadings could be generated using List of astrological traditions (checking against Category:Astrology for completeness), but I think the current main heading text would suffice. Possibly another sentence could be added briefly outlining why this cannot be scientific. Eldereft 07:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The idea has been toyed around with of limiting this list to just items which the highest level of scientific resources deem to be pseudoscience or pseudoscientific. These highest levels would include what is currently described as the inclusion criteria of the top-most list: The following have broad consensus concerning their pseudoscientific status. Indicative of this are assertions by mainstream, specialized scientific bodies (e.g., a society of plasma physicists) or one or more national- or regional-level Academies of Science. This list article has been contentious since its inception and the edit history makes it clear that the most of the contention is not derived from the top list, but rather the subsequent lists including "Topics which skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific or closely associated with it" and "Disputed subjects". In my opinion, these sections will never be free from contention because they are highly subjective, violate NPOV and come off making the rest of this article seem like a POV Fork. My proposal here is to remove these sections. Thoughts? -- Levine2112 discuss 23:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Note that I did not say that all of the tags were correct. It is not the place of this list to make judgment calls about pseudoscience or what we believe constitutes it. That is the place of the RS'. If you have an issue with Graphology being placed in pseudoscience, discuss it on that article's talk page. Not here. I am still confused by your mention of the "whim of skeptics". Do skeptics run about and mark everything pseudoscience? Last I checked they did not. As they have been used as RS in other articles, they surely have some method for determining pseudoscience. And in regards to bowing to political whims, I'd like to actually see proof of the statement. And with regards to the comment about chiropractic, that is a giant can of worms. Baegis ( talk) 19:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with separating the article. It's kinda of like mixing science with pseudoscience. The analogy isn't perfect. The point is that the classifications in the first group are of a much higher order, then let's say the beliefs of a skeptical group. Anthon01 ( talk) 21:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
There has been extensive discussion about needing clear citations that point to the pseudoscientific nature of subjects listed here. This included the need to remove items that do not have such citations. If verifiable citations cannot be found - and there have been months to do this - the items should be archived and brought back in when/if verification is possible. The discussion has been sitting on the talk page for several months and no one has expressed any doubts about the policy. I proposed on Dec. 4th to wait one more week and then begin archiving. It's 12 days later, and I began. One editor is reverting the archiving. What do people think about this? Do we want unverified items on this list? Hgilbert ( talk) 18:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Several months ago, someone (me!) got the idea of only using sources from science academies. We immediately ran into the problem of a horribly-underpopulated list. It turns out that these academies only denounce the pseudosciences that make their way into business, education, and government. So next went to works from mainstream skeptical bodies, which are in the business of writing about any pseudoscience that pops up on a very sensitive radar. We didn't think it appropriate to throw them in with the academies, so the pseudosciences that only received attention from the skeptical bodies were separated out. Save for a couple people who didn't want their pet hobby on the list no matter what, everyone was happy with this solution. But of course, new Wikipedians visited the list and started objecting without reading the pages of compromise that went into the present version of the article. And here we are today! Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I know that this has been on the list in the past and is guaranteed to be contentious, but acupuncture is probably the most commonly practiced and researched pseudoscience (with the possible exception of chiropractic). As such, this list suffers disproportionately by this omission. Supporting references include the NIH, Mayo Clinic, and AMA, as well as preeminent skeptical organizations. As with every entry, it is of course necessary to outline the legitimate scientific enterprise associated with acupuncture. Please find below for your 'let us please bring this to consensus without an edit war' pleasure, my attempt at an immpeccably sourced NPOV entry:
Acupuncture is a form of
vitalism in which fine needles are inserted and manipulated at specific
acupuncture points to rebalance the flow of
qi. Within the context of
evidence-based medicine, acupuncture has been used successfully to treat a variety of conditions, mostly related to pain or nausea.
[7]
[8]
[9] There is less evidence of its efficacy against a variety of illnesses and physical ailments for which it has been used.
[10]
[11] No scientific evidence exists for the traditional metaphysical mechanisms of action, anatomical theories, or precise clinical placements of acupuncture.
[12]
[13]
[14]
[15]
[16] Patient response rates and magnitudes and neurochemical and biophysical responses are all consistent with placebo response.
[17]
[18]
[19]
[20]
[21]
[22]
Note that this includes only pure needling; heating, lasing, applying current and suchlike modified modalities would to my mind be better served as subheadings. I also omitted any reference to the dangers of relying solely on acupuncture as a medical diagnostic/treatment tool, as that strays perhaps outside the purview of just a list entry. I also also omitted direct citation to a couple of well-designed studies on sham acupuncture (no statistical difference) and neuroimaging studies (people feel better when we think we are being treated) to avoid any possibility of
WP:OR by cherry-picking studies. The issue of lack of worldwide and historical agreement on the placement of acupuncture points, however, might be added to the entry if anyone thinks it useful.
Eldereft (
talk) 10:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Eldereft
Appreciate your work on the proposed entry, though some of your statements (e.g. re placebo) are not consistent with sources cited or with other sources. For example, you say "Patient response rates and magnitudes and neurochemical and biophysical responses are all consistent with placebo response" and cite the NIH statement, but that source says "the quality or quantity of the research evidence is not sufficient to provide firm evidence of efficacy at this time" in reference to "many other conditions (that) have received some attention in the literature", not all conditions. Indeed, that report says (albeit arguably a bit too boldly, cf. Cochrane et al) that "There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy" and "There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain", etc. If you want a source arguing acu is just placebo, the NIH statement isn't it. Have a look also at the sources under Acupuncture#Scientific_research_into_efficacy.
However, the main problem with your proposed addition is that I don't see any source from any body of scientists or so-called scientific-skeptical groups stating that acu is a pseudoscience. Per WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience, attributable evidence of scientific consensus is necessary to use Category:Pseudoscience, and evidence of a sig POV that the topic is pseudoscientific is necessary to mention PS in the article. For this list, we have agreed upon an intermediate threshold (an agreement consistent with WP:CLS): a statement by a group. I see essays by individuals (Carroll) and a piece on the UK Skeptics site, but not a group statement. Perhaps an entry from Shermer's " The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience" would suffice, since we have agreed that that publication represents some degree of consensus from the Skeptics Society (I guess by virtue of that group having an editorial board and board of advisors).
So, if we can find such a group-based source, and tweak your entry here and there, sure. Does this make sense to you? Criticisms of aspects of acupuncture as pseudoscience do exist in the article, btw (I put some of them there myself), so the issue is not being ignored. regards, Jim Butler( talk) 21:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) OK, finally some time for a reply. I still don't see any of these references making the cut, for various reasons: i.e., the sources don't say acu is pseudoscience, a/o they are individuals rather than groups, a/o they fail WP:SOURCES. I don't think a bunch of "not quite" sources taken together suffice, any more than it's possible to become "a little bit pregnant" from a series of near-misses. There is a certain threshold to meet.
The one statement by a scientific body group (AMA [19]) does not say that acu is a pseudoscience or anything in that ballpark (e.g., a pretend or spurious science, or that it is misrepresented as science). It appears that you are making the leap of assuming that a treatment whose efficacy is unproven or disputed must be pseudoscience. This sounds like WP:SYN to me, and it also leads to the absurd result of including any and all treatments lacking gold-standard EBM backing (see last paragraph here, from the Institute of Medicine). Same goes for Mayo Clinic [17], but even more so given context, as with NIH.
John Jackson, at UKSkeptics [20], does call acu pseudoscience. However, there is nothing there to indicate that his essay is a statement by the group, or a list of editors or advisors. Nor does UK Skeptics appear to meet WP:N, and our inclusion criteria do specifically say "notable skeptical bodies". Additionally, the source does not appear to meet WP:SOURCES, being self-published, and has no references. A pretty bad source, imo, also because it is factually wrong on the origins of the idea of qi in TCM (it did not originate with Soulie de Morant), and to boot, it looks like the author may have lifted (with minor modifications) some of the WP article (see Acupuncture#Other_injury) without attribution. This source is a great example of why we need V RS's. Really kind of ironic not to be rigorous here. (I agree with WP:INDY that articles on fringe topics, with little more than self-published sources, can suffer from vanity and NPOV issues, and thus require balancing with a Quackwatch-type, self-published source. But for notable topics like acu, we should use notable sources, and stick close to them.)
The Stenger article at CSI (formerly CSICOP) [16], similarly, is not evidently a statement by that group. (Are CSI self-pub as well? It gets hard to tell.)
There is one source, NCAHF [22], that comes close to our criteria. As above, I don't accept the idea that disputed efficacy = pseudoscience. Nor is it clear that their characterization of acu as non-scientific equates to pseudo; classical Chinese medicine predates science and never pretended to be science. But more importantly, WP:SOURCES says that NCAHF's self-published stuff should be used primarily in their own article, and in this case, it is: NCAHF#Acupuncture.
OK -- I don't mean to be dense or to wikilawyer here. Just arguing for adequate sourcing. Even from the biggest-picture, WP:IAR standpoint, I don't think that dubious sources on skepticism are good for either scientific thinking or for this project. I don't doubt that characterization of acu (or aspects of it) as PS exists, but I don't see enough to meet this list's criteria.
I did consider suggesting that we loosen the inclusion criteria, and allow the second tier to include not just statements by groups, but statements by any source meeting WP:N and WP:V. I think we should not, per WP:DIRECTORY. I don't think it's within the scope of the project to include every opinion any notable person has expressed on pseudoscience, bad politicians, restaurants in Paris, etc. The "group" threshold is important to meet WP:V and WP:WEIGHT, and we should make sure that in the case of skeptic groups, they meet both WP:N and WP:SOURCES. Otherwise, we just get a random collection of stuff related to pseudoscience, and for that, the reader can simply google or check Special:Whatlinkshere/Pseudoscience. regards, Jim Butler( talk)
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