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Why is this here? Arguably, the Union and the Confederacy disputed the territory of every secessionary state; should we list all of those too? And by that standard, isn't every every civil war in which both sides can form a functioning or internationally-recognized government a territorial dispute? But including all of those would dilute the list's usefulness to irrelevance. Bernanke's Crossbow ( talk) 07:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Seriously, who in their right mind would consider the Kashmir border dispute in the same category or page as a New Hampshire-VT disagreement in the US Revolutionary war times? When did NH or NY exist as independent republics?? Vermont REPUBLIC??? recognized by who? If that merits mention, there were dozens of provincial disputes in the Spanish colonies in South America not mentioned here. Leave it to some overzealous US dimwit to put those on the same level. 198.24.21.137 ( talk) 14:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
The reasoning is a territorial dispute is only valid if a country claims some land as its own. South Korea does not claim Noktundo as its own land. So it does not qualify as a territorial dispute. The source provided lists Russia having territorial disputes with Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Japan, Taiwan, not with South Korea.
[1] https://brilliantmaps.com/territorial-disputes/
45.74.78.11 ( talk) 04:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
As a result of external invasion and war on the Korean Peninsula, it has led to territorial disputes as well as human and material sacrifices. Baekdusan jeonggyebi(Mt. Paektu Demarcation Stone), North Korea-China Border Treaty, Gando, Roktundo, Dokdo, Ieodo and Sector 7 are just that.
영토 문제를 다루며 녹둔도를 언급한 책은 있지만...->
[T]here are many books that mention Noktundo as a territorial issue
외교부 영토해양과의 홍성원 서기관은 “녹둔도는 현재 당면한 영토 분쟁 지역에 해당하지 않으므로 우리 정부는 이에 대해 어떤 특정한 입장을 갖고 있지 않다”고 했다.->
Hong Seong-won, secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Territorial and Maritime Affairs Department, said, "Since Nokdundo Island is not considered a current territorial dispute, our government does not have any specific position on it."
However, difficulties in applying the concept to concrete cases have given rise to academic debates about its precise definition. Disagreements concern whether either or both ethnic and historical reasons have to be present and whether non-state actors can also engage in irredentism.
1. The dispute is between private citizens, not between governments. Territorial disputes between nations can only be between governments, not between private citizens. Case in point, Chinese drew the eastern half of Heixiazi island as Chinese land, but we do not consider it a territorial dispute, because it is the action of private citizens, not the action of the Chinese government.
2. North Korea and USSR signed a border treaty in 1990. There is no territorial dispute between North Korea and USSR. Territorial disputes cannot be made on behalf of someone else. Case in point, Brazil considers Falklands islands as part of Argentina and supports Argentina's claim. This does not make Brazil having territorial dispute with the UK regarding the Falkland islands. Likewise, it cannot be considered territorial dispute even if South Korea claims Noktundo should be part of North Korea. It can only be considered territorial dispute if South Korea claims Noktundo belongs to itself.
3. The list of territorial disputes compiled by CIA is very thorough as you can see considering it includes very small minor disputes such as Hans island. So it seems Noktundo should not be considered a disputed territory.
[5] https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/disputes-international/
45.74.78.47 ( talk) 05:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
I think it's telling that the ROK Government stated that a current territorial dispute, our government does not have any specific position on it." which is a very coy response. Contrast that with North Korea, which officially resolved the dispute by ceding all territorial claims it holds over Noktundo to Russia. South Korea is deliberately using choice language to state it doesn't have a specific position on it, but it also hasn't retracted its 1985 and 1990 claims. Had the ROK retracted its claims I wouldn't consider it a territorial dispute, but the fact that it only is remaining mute on the issue just to avoid tensions with Russia combined with the fact that academics generally do see it as a dispute means it likely is a dispute. Given Wikipedia's preference for academics' opinions on an issue over a government's opinion it still is a territorial dispute.
articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources § Some types of sources.
should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. Saying that it's settled because there's no mention of it in that primary source is considered original research.
Now, first I'd like to point out I ain't Korean, so I might come off ignorant on this subject. So please bear with me.
I want to make a point here the justification of Noktundo on wikippedia's list of disputes is questionable. First and foremost, South Korea has never demanded Russia return Noktundo, even though South Korea may have demanded USSR to do so in 1985 and 1990 (again, I haven't seen any source confirming this so I kinda doubt the validity of this). USSR is long gone. What might hold true for USSR does not automatically carry over to Russia, which is a completely different nation. I figure South Korea has to make fresh demands post 1991 in order for Noktundo to be considered a dispute. Case in point, what might hold true for the UK does not automatically carry over to the USA despite the fact the USA is descended from the UK the way Russia descended from the USSR. What say you?
136.143.222.166 ( talk) 11:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Above comment was modified after it was replied to
References
The official status of the Estonian-Russian dispute is grey, to say the least. For all intents and purposes, the border isn't moving any time soon. A treaty confirming this is signed, but was never ratified, and given the minor disagreement of impending world war, it is very unlikely to happen soon either. The Estonian constitution officially lays claim to those lands, even if any head of state or government doesn't (or even clearly states the opposite). Does the resolved conflicts section take into account de facto resolved issues, or should it be moved under ongoing disputes? It is still a topic that arises in Estonian politics, even if merely as populist undertakings by certain parties.
This is, obviously, a question of technicalities, but distinguishing the situation from Latvia which has a mutually ratified border agreement with Russia seems like a vital nuance. The Estonian-Russian border, from an Estonian juridical standpoint, is a "temporary control line". MartinusK ( talk) 22:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
45.58.94.237 ( talk) 10:39, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
The current map in the lead shows (among other things) the vast traditional territorial claims of the Republic of China (Taiwan) as disputed territory, but is currently missing the chunk of land Taiwan also technically claimes in Tajikistan (See China–Tajikistan border#History) If the traditional claims were to be referenced. Can someone fix that slight error, thanks. Zinderboff( talk) 02:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
[6] https://hiiraan.com/news2/2010/Oct/for_first_time_in_history_somalia_claims_socotra_as_its_own.aspx
162.221.127.213 ( talk) 10:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Why is the image like that. Mongolia is territorial dispute free country. Why is it bloody red? 23.242.168.218 ( talk) 15:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
It seems like the Taliban does not recognize the Durand Line https://www.arabnews.pk/node/2461556/pakistan https://tolonews.com/afghanistan-187446 https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/20/taliban-pakistan-afghanistan-border-dispute/ So wouldnt it make sense to add it as a territorial dispute? The article for the Durand Line states it was recognized by Afghanistan during the 70s, but even if that is true. These articles imply the recognition has been revoked. Rad da writer ( talk) 15:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of territorial disputes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Why is this here? Arguably, the Union and the Confederacy disputed the territory of every secessionary state; should we list all of those too? And by that standard, isn't every every civil war in which both sides can form a functioning or internationally-recognized government a territorial dispute? But including all of those would dilute the list's usefulness to irrelevance. Bernanke's Crossbow ( talk) 07:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Seriously, who in their right mind would consider the Kashmir border dispute in the same category or page as a New Hampshire-VT disagreement in the US Revolutionary war times? When did NH or NY exist as independent republics?? Vermont REPUBLIC??? recognized by who? If that merits mention, there were dozens of provincial disputes in the Spanish colonies in South America not mentioned here. Leave it to some overzealous US dimwit to put those on the same level. 198.24.21.137 ( talk) 14:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
The reasoning is a territorial dispute is only valid if a country claims some land as its own. South Korea does not claim Noktundo as its own land. So it does not qualify as a territorial dispute. The source provided lists Russia having territorial disputes with Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Japan, Taiwan, not with South Korea.
[1] https://brilliantmaps.com/territorial-disputes/
45.74.78.11 ( talk) 04:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
As a result of external invasion and war on the Korean Peninsula, it has led to territorial disputes as well as human and material sacrifices. Baekdusan jeonggyebi(Mt. Paektu Demarcation Stone), North Korea-China Border Treaty, Gando, Roktundo, Dokdo, Ieodo and Sector 7 are just that.
영토 문제를 다루며 녹둔도를 언급한 책은 있지만...->
[T]here are many books that mention Noktundo as a territorial issue
외교부 영토해양과의 홍성원 서기관은 “녹둔도는 현재 당면한 영토 분쟁 지역에 해당하지 않으므로 우리 정부는 이에 대해 어떤 특정한 입장을 갖고 있지 않다”고 했다.->
Hong Seong-won, secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Territorial and Maritime Affairs Department, said, "Since Nokdundo Island is not considered a current territorial dispute, our government does not have any specific position on it."
However, difficulties in applying the concept to concrete cases have given rise to academic debates about its precise definition. Disagreements concern whether either or both ethnic and historical reasons have to be present and whether non-state actors can also engage in irredentism.
1. The dispute is between private citizens, not between governments. Territorial disputes between nations can only be between governments, not between private citizens. Case in point, Chinese drew the eastern half of Heixiazi island as Chinese land, but we do not consider it a territorial dispute, because it is the action of private citizens, not the action of the Chinese government.
2. North Korea and USSR signed a border treaty in 1990. There is no territorial dispute between North Korea and USSR. Territorial disputes cannot be made on behalf of someone else. Case in point, Brazil considers Falklands islands as part of Argentina and supports Argentina's claim. This does not make Brazil having territorial dispute with the UK regarding the Falkland islands. Likewise, it cannot be considered territorial dispute even if South Korea claims Noktundo should be part of North Korea. It can only be considered territorial dispute if South Korea claims Noktundo belongs to itself.
3. The list of territorial disputes compiled by CIA is very thorough as you can see considering it includes very small minor disputes such as Hans island. So it seems Noktundo should not be considered a disputed territory.
[5] https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/disputes-international/
45.74.78.47 ( talk) 05:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
I think it's telling that the ROK Government stated that a current territorial dispute, our government does not have any specific position on it." which is a very coy response. Contrast that with North Korea, which officially resolved the dispute by ceding all territorial claims it holds over Noktundo to Russia. South Korea is deliberately using choice language to state it doesn't have a specific position on it, but it also hasn't retracted its 1985 and 1990 claims. Had the ROK retracted its claims I wouldn't consider it a territorial dispute, but the fact that it only is remaining mute on the issue just to avoid tensions with Russia combined with the fact that academics generally do see it as a dispute means it likely is a dispute. Given Wikipedia's preference for academics' opinions on an issue over a government's opinion it still is a territorial dispute.
articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources § Some types of sources.
should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. Saying that it's settled because there's no mention of it in that primary source is considered original research.
Now, first I'd like to point out I ain't Korean, so I might come off ignorant on this subject. So please bear with me.
I want to make a point here the justification of Noktundo on wikippedia's list of disputes is questionable. First and foremost, South Korea has never demanded Russia return Noktundo, even though South Korea may have demanded USSR to do so in 1985 and 1990 (again, I haven't seen any source confirming this so I kinda doubt the validity of this). USSR is long gone. What might hold true for USSR does not automatically carry over to Russia, which is a completely different nation. I figure South Korea has to make fresh demands post 1991 in order for Noktundo to be considered a dispute. Case in point, what might hold true for the UK does not automatically carry over to the USA despite the fact the USA is descended from the UK the way Russia descended from the USSR. What say you?
136.143.222.166 ( talk) 11:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC) Above comment was modified after it was replied to
References
The official status of the Estonian-Russian dispute is grey, to say the least. For all intents and purposes, the border isn't moving any time soon. A treaty confirming this is signed, but was never ratified, and given the minor disagreement of impending world war, it is very unlikely to happen soon either. The Estonian constitution officially lays claim to those lands, even if any head of state or government doesn't (or even clearly states the opposite). Does the resolved conflicts section take into account de facto resolved issues, or should it be moved under ongoing disputes? It is still a topic that arises in Estonian politics, even if merely as populist undertakings by certain parties.
This is, obviously, a question of technicalities, but distinguishing the situation from Latvia which has a mutually ratified border agreement with Russia seems like a vital nuance. The Estonian-Russian border, from an Estonian juridical standpoint, is a "temporary control line". MartinusK ( talk) 22:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
45.58.94.237 ( talk) 10:39, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
The current map in the lead shows (among other things) the vast traditional territorial claims of the Republic of China (Taiwan) as disputed territory, but is currently missing the chunk of land Taiwan also technically claimes in Tajikistan (See China–Tajikistan border#History) If the traditional claims were to be referenced. Can someone fix that slight error, thanks. Zinderboff( talk) 02:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
[6] https://hiiraan.com/news2/2010/Oct/for_first_time_in_history_somalia_claims_socotra_as_its_own.aspx
162.221.127.213 ( talk) 10:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Why is the image like that. Mongolia is territorial dispute free country. Why is it bloody red? 23.242.168.218 ( talk) 15:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
It seems like the Taliban does not recognize the Durand Line https://www.arabnews.pk/node/2461556/pakistan https://tolonews.com/afghanistan-187446 https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/20/taliban-pakistan-afghanistan-border-dispute/ So wouldnt it make sense to add it as a territorial dispute? The article for the Durand Line states it was recognized by Afghanistan during the 70s, but even if that is true. These articles imply the recognition has been revoked. Rad da writer ( talk) 15:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)