![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Surely Sealand deserves to be included, on any of the normally accepted definitions of sovereignty. TharkunColl 12:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Sealand is a state under the Montevido Convention. It complies with all terms:
(a) a permanent population. The Bates family lives permanently on Sealand.
(b) a defined territory. There is a debate as to how much, but Sealand is recognized as owning some territory.
(c) government. Certainly. Sealand has a functioning leadership.
(d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. During the brief attempted coup, the Netherlands and Germany negotiated directly with Sealand to provide for the release of their countries' prisoners.
If nobody objects, I will add Sealand. -- 203.198.23.68 08:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
From the Wikipedia article on Sealand: "The interactions of the UK and German governments with Sealand constitute de facto recognition. Sealand claims de facto legitimacy on this basis." We can't contradict ourselves. Sealand is de facto recognized, and should be on this page.-- Imp88 23:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
This has been discussed previously - Sealand is not a country and should not be listed. Reality check - Paddy Bates is just a squatter on HM Rough Tower. While he claims it to be a country, it could never be considered a country as it has no territory (It is is a man-made structure, which by definition is not a territory). Also it has not been recognized by any other country (Recognition has to be mutual and both Germany and the UK have stated the do not recognize Sealand). -- ( Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 02:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, maybe you're right, but isn't this a double standard? I don't recall Transnistria interacting with any foreign goverments. And a few countries on the list aren't recognized either. Not to mention that Sealand not only claims HM Rough Tower, but 3 km of ocean around it. Hong Kong has a huge portion of man-made area, and we don't say that it isn't territory. -- Imp88 06:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Never mind then. -- Imp88 04:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
According to the argument that I have presented above several weeks ago and for which I haven’t received any counter arguments I am removing Abkazia from the list completely. Also, I am removing South Ossetia because it is not a sovereign region but a part of Georgian territory occupied by Russia. Here is proof: 1) Almost entire South Ossetian population has Russian Citizenship 2) Russia does not require visas for people who live in South Ossetia (while it does for the rest of Georgia) 3) Russia directly appoints leaders and minister of South Ossetia (i.e. minister of defense of South Ossetia is a Russian citizen who is currently on active military duty with Russian department of defense). 4) Russian “peacekeeping” forces do not perform their peacekeeping duties (this was recently recognized by Georgian parliament) but rather are occupy Georgian territory and oppress Georgian population. Irakliy81 19:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Khoikhoi, read the following, please. And reply, if you have ANY arguments. Othervise, stop reverts:
As it was already said, listing of the uncontrolled territories together with sovereign states, like USA, South Korea, etc is an absurd. There is one more question, how about Western Papua, and the Burmese (Myanmar) territories of the Kachin, Karen, Wa, Shan and other peoples? They are absolutely de facto independant from the Burmese government. Many territories in Northern Caucasus (not only in Chechnya) are not controlled by Russia. Pakistani government has absolutly no control over the territory of Waziristan. Do you think that all these territories (and many more which I haven't mentioned) are more controlled by the central governments than South Ossetia for example? If you do, you are really wrong. I don't think we must have double standards here. Ok, if all the uncontrolled regions are in the list of countries, as Jiang has justly mentioned, it's no need to create a section for "unrecognized countries". If someone thinks, there should be such a section with separatist regions included, I won't object. What I say, is that Sovereign States must be in a separate list from the uncontrolled territories. Now, I'm removing the separatist regions from the List. Pirveli 20:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Latinus, Transnistria was NOT included, as well as other uncontrolled territories untill that reverts. There was no double standards, untill that reverts. Read what I say above, what I'm doing is trying to get rid of the double standards, thats it! Pirveli 20:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
some people but by others" is rediculous :).
Latinus, including regions in the list just because some people think these regions are de facto independent is not a sound criterion. The criteria for de facto independence are listed at the top of the article they are: a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. First of all I’m not happy with these criteria for they are vague. For example, lets consider Texas, it fits the definition, and I will tell you that there are groups of people who consider Texas to be independent from the United States; however, putting Texas on this list would be ridiculous. Now, let’s consider Abkhazia for example, a) Permanent population - more than 50% of Abkhazian population are refugees who cannot safely return to their homes, and would return as soon as someone would guarantee their safety. So, can you really say that Abkhazia has permanent population? b) Abkhazia does have defined territory, so no argument here. c) Government (by that I assume independent government): Abkhazian government (including the president) is directly controlled from Moscow. The last presidential elections (as I point out in one of my previous posts) show that very well. Would you say that, for example, France has independent government if German prime minister could appoint a French president? d) Capacity to enter into relations with other states -- this is a very vague term which I’m not even sure how to approach. No UN member would enter into relationship with Abkhazia that’s what is meant by recognition. So I’m left to wonder as to what is actually implied by the term “capacity”. All in all, Abkazia does not fit at least 2 out of 4 criteria, so why is it on this list again? Irakliy81 20:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Guys, that's seem to turn to a complete mess. The states are the areas recognised as states by other nations indeed. That's the rules of the international play. If one lists self-declared states, separatistic/seccecionist regions, the areas of a state captured by another state - this certainly brings one to a mess. Any rural community may declare it's an independent state, and what then, add it to a list? I understand there are mini-states like Vatican or Andorra, but their existence is coined by the surrounding nations and history, and their existence does not contradict with the regional interest balance. Please, please - if you wish to list somewhere in Wikipedia the areas like "Pridnestove", "N Cyprus Republic", or "South Ossetia", or "Bask Country", create something like a section "dispute and conflict areas of the World". Otherwise the entire idea of Wikipedia is down - 85.117.33.35 21:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC) Ridibo 21:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I would agree with the opinion presented above. Abkhazia and South Ossetia (by the way where is the country North Ossetia?) should not be on the list. Formally they are under georgian jurisdiction. De facto they are under Russian military protectorate. They themselves have many times pronounced the wish to be reattached to Russia and have all acquired Russian citizenship.
Generally I think Wikipedia should avoid such controversial issues. Any articulated position could potential seriouzly damage its reputation as an independent and objective source of information. Clearly having those territories on the list of independent states is an articulated position.
22:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)~
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are NOT the states but two provinces of Georgia occupied by Russian imperialists in 1992-93. In Abkhazia Russians even performed ethnic cleansing in 1993 removing or murdering 80 per-cent of its population.
Putting these two provinces as "states" is twisting the truth and supporting racism and aggression. Please check this for more information: http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/abkhazia.htm
Hello All! I found I am not alone who can not see any reason in including Abkhazia and South Ossetia in the 'List_of_sovereign_states'. These two phenomenons are anything, but 'sovereign states'; to describe them as states is a very doubtful thing by itself.
Since everyone agrees with no exceptions that de jure Abkhazia and South are parts of Georgia, I would like to concentrate the conversation on the phrase 'de facto'.
First of all both of these territories (actually - very important - only parts of them) 'de facto', or I would say 'in reality', are occupied territories.
About 65-70% of Abkhazia region is militarily occupied by Russian forces � I am not talking about troops formally described as 'peace keeping' � there other groups of the Russian armed forces, which are in every strategic point of the occupied 65-70%. About 10-20 % of the territory remains under Georgian control. The rest of Abkhazia is a zone of fighting for control.
From 70% to 85% of the population is driven from their homes under various pretexts. The remaining part had been made Russian citizens. They vote in the Russian elections � they are (at least were, up to the most recent times) assigned to the Kolomensky voting district. They receive salaries and pensions from the Russian Federation.
The individuals which are sometimes described as 'local authorities' or 'officials de facto' are all Russian citizens � their families live in Russia (mostly in Moscow), they live themselves much of the time in Russia too, some visit Abkhazia only once a year at the most. The individuals which are sometimes described as �local military authorities and such� are all Russian citizens too and are officially in the Russian military service � even if it is said, they are in 'organized reseve' or something like this.
And very important � all 'local authorities' always insist that they are de facto a part of the Russian Federation and want to become a part of the Russian Federation de jure.
The official currency is the Russian rouble, all 'local authorities' always insist that they are not going to create their own financial system.
The similar situation is with the so-called South Ossetia � only in this case most of the territory is under Georgian control.
How can one describe militarily occupied territories as sovereign states � you could list then some Reichskommissariat Ostland in your 'List_of_sovereign_states'!? Especially if the territories are not only occupied, but also their 'authorities' insist that they are de facto a part of some real sovereign state and want to become a part of this state de jure etc etc etc. It is even very hard to call them 'separatists' , if possible at all.
So as a resume: it does not make any sense to list some militarily occupied patches of some territories, which claim that they are de facto a part of the occupying state - in the 'List_of_sovereign_states'.
If it does make sense for someone, I think it is should be considered then to include Reichskommissariat Ostland in 'List_of_sovereign_states' too � it has not much less 'rights', than Abkhazia or 'South Ossetia'.
But still I hope the common - I would say sound - sense is going to prevail. And responsibility!
The last presidential elections are not a good example to show that Russia controls Abkhazia. Russia supported the incumbant prime minister. Guess what, the oposition candidate won. You site that all Abkhazians have Russian passports. Sure they have, since they are isolated internationally they can't use Abkhazian documents to move around. You claim that these states' only goal is to eventually join Russia. This may be true for South-Ossetia, but the fact that this is a goal shows that it's not the current situation. Also, Abkhazia has only aspired 'association', while remaining independant, my guess is this would be that this would be something like San Marino, Vatican City, Monaco visa vi Italy and France. Sure, Abkhazia would be dependant on Russia, but so is the Vatican and so is San Marino. You claim that it would be an outrage to see Abkhazia side by side with the US, but isn;t it also really strange to see the Vatican in one list with the US? Is the Vatican really independant, de facto? Thing is, states are not the same and this is an interdependant world we live in, no country can survive on its own. So that's not relevant. What's relevant is that Georgia has no de facto control over these territories, their respective governments have, and whatever Russia's policy, it does not claim to rule these territories, therefore they are de facto independant, as much as Afghanistan is currently independant. And Abkhazia is not just like andy john doe or Shan secessionist group declaring independance, it is the direct continuation of a state that was previously part of the Soviet Union, it has got institutional continuity.
You are saying "it [Georgia] does not claim to rule these territories, therefore they are de facto independant". First of all, yes georgia does not claim to rule these territories � but, a) Geogia�s does not have control only over a part of the mentioned territories and what is more important "georgia does not claim to rule these territories" does not mean the territory rules itself. And if, even not being ruled by Georgia, ruled by Russia � it means it (Ablhazia) is not a "sovereign state".
"Russia supported the incumbant prime minister. Guess what, the oposition candidate won."
Oh, really!? In reality there are several groups in Russia who fight for property in Russia and in so-called unrecognized states. One group supported one "candidate" and the other � the one who "won". So the "elections" are an example of exactly contrary situation that you related us. Both the the Russia General Prosecutor�s mate Kolesnikov and the Russian parliament vice-speaker Baburin are Russian authorities. The fact that "Baburin�s" candidate won over Kolesnikov�s candidate does not say Abkhazia is a sovereign state.
"it is the direct continuation of a state that was previously part of the Soviet Union"
- It was a part of Soviet Georgia, which indeed was a part of USSR (since 1936 � since 1922 to 1936 it was a part of Transcaucasus Soviet Federate Socialistic Republic, which was a part of USSR). And it is not a question who was who and what was what - the question is which territory has "features" that are sufficient and relevant enough to present any grounds for naming it a "sovereign state".
There are no grounds to describe Abkhazia as "sovereign state" or even a secessionist territory. I asked everyone about Reichskommissariat Ostland or asking now Reichskommissariat Ukraine (temporary names Natzies gave to some occupied parts of USSR) - what are the differences between them and nowadays Abkhazia?
Or it would be interesting to hear your definition of "sovereign state".
That's your POV - it's not our job to interpret the Mindevideo Convention. That's for international (and sometimed national) courts and tribunals. We present the facts (that their statehood is disputed) and let the reader make up his own mind - see WP:NPOV. This list includes unrecognised states as per footnote 1 and until a consensus is formed stating otherwise, that is the way it is going to stay. BTW you've been reported for suspected sockpuppetry, block evasion and general abuse of editing privileges. -- Latinus 08:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Latinus, personally I find it a best solution to make a separate list of "unrecognized countries" with the separatist regions included, and to post a link to that list on the main page. Pirveli 13:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it too (alongside with Pirveli) that the best way is to create a separate list of "unrecognized countries" or something like this with probably subdivisions: "unrecognized countries proper" and "entities propagandized as states or states like structures" - for both modern ones: like Abkhazia and Northern Cyprus; and for those from the past: like South Lebanon and Reichskommissariat Ostland with Reichskommissariat Ukraine. Otherwise wikipedia.org is going to become an advertising board of machtpolitik and aggression propaganda.
Khoikhoi, why are you reverting the article again without explaining your changes on the talk page? And what vote are you talking about? Irakliy81 00:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
My arguments in this are quite simple:
Neither Abkhazia nor South Ossetia should be in this list simply because they don’t fit the criteria defined in the beginning of the article.
For Abhazia:
<from decwindows>"The Abkhaz run their own government" - what is by you to run? Reichskommissariat Ostland had numerous officials - but who created them, what did it matter that Minsk fo example has an "elected" mayor? The most impotant question: "Who actually controlled the territory?" - the answer is clear. Would you say the people of Reichskommissariat Ostland ran their own government? "You think that the "legitimate government" is Georgia, which it isn't." - The thing is it is legitimate - if it is really interesting for you, ask the UN or the Foreign Ministry of any real sovereign state of the real, not imaginary, world". <from decwindows>
<from decwindows>"Northern Cyprus is as dependent as Abkhazia, but it's still on the list." - so you are not as ignorant as you pretend. If you consider Northern Cyprus "a de facto independent state" - then actually one just must stop argueing and just weep or laugh. Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia etc should not be called "a de facto independent states" "Despite Abkhazia's help from Russia, you cannot deny that Abkhazia is a de facto independent country, right?" - is this you argument!? You just "cannot deny that"!? Well I can - I and presented points why (see above). "This is what almost every source says" - Do your sourses say Northern Cyprus is "a de facto independent state" and Reichskommissariat Ukraine was "a de facto independent state"? <from decwindows>
<from decwindows>"it is still not part of Russia" - well more "yes", than "no" - but still it does not mean it is a "de facto independent" state. It is a part of Georgia occupied by Russia. "It's current status is a de facto independent country - that's a fact" - hardly it is more, than just your personal POV. Facts (see above) tell something completely different. <from decwindows>
For South Ossetia:
I hope you will be able to counter every one of my arguments with solid arguments of your own. Until then I will restore the previous state of the article. Irakliy81 01:21, 28 February 2006 (UTC) Test AvtoK 03:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Here are some facts about Abkhazia and South Ossetia. About 60% of population of the Abkhazia was driven away from their homes. There is a heavy Russian military presence in the region. So-called NIS peacekeepers consisting 100% of Russians and military base in bombora near the town Gudauta (this base is supposed to be closed before 2002 in accordance of 1999 Istanbul agreement, but remains functional). Russia gave to the remaining part of population Russian citizenship. They receive their wages from Russia and fiscal policy under Russian control. Georgia still controls 15% of the territory. Same situation with South Ossetia. Difference is that Georgia controls most of its territory. In so called South Ossetian government most positions are filled by Russian military officers and they not even bother themselves to be formally discharged from Russian governmental institutions. Therefore, as I see some of you people not interested what’s is going on in Abkhazia and South Ossetia (in case of Abkhazia ethnic cleansing, atrocities and apartheid of remaining Georgian population) as far as they meet formal criteria of sovereign states. However, as you can see they do not. These are Georgian territories occupied by Russians and only criteria they meet are “Puppet States’.
AvtoK
03:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The debate over whether these border cases qualify as states can go on forever without reaching consensus. Since some people consider them to be states and others do not, either simply including or simply excluding them is not npov. I propose that we should improve the footnotes instead: if they are to be included here, we should have a few sentences long footnote for each "de facto state" explaining how they both do and do not meet the criteria. -- Jiang 05:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
What do you think?( PaC 05:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :beginning>
There IS a sizeable fraction believing that neither Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus can be described as "de facto independent states" and "states" at all. Not just believing, but giving facts, information, which show Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus are just facades for Russian and Turkish military occupation - as was South Lebanon a facade for Israel occupation of Lebanon�s territory and as were local "authorities" in Reichskommissariat Ostland just a façade for Nazi German occupation of USSR territory. I would say more � most of people in this discussion see no reason in including Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus in "de facto independent states" category or list - just look at the postings.
On the other hand I do not think it is reasonable to make a decision (when we talk of an encyclopaedia and information which may give someone the idea what is really going on) - speaking in terms like "sizeable fraction" or "voting" - if there will be a sizeable fraction believing H2SO4 is a metal � will you put H2SO4 in metals list or if majority will vote for the same? I hope you will not.
So I would like to propose to make it, for example, in a kind of "mechanic" way - there is a table of "features" which "lets" a territory to be called a state ("de facto independent state", for example) - you fill the table cells with data, then count the result. If you do not think there is a widely accepted (or accepted by common sense) table of "features" - there are certainly existing moments which clearly show what is what - if there is no more or less stable territory, almost no permanent population, a territory is militarily occupied by an army of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring � does not matter) state, whole economical, political, security etc situation controlled by the army and special services of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring - does not matter) state - then where is this "de facto independent state". Declarations of some very limited in numbers individuals are not arguments. You can make an experiment - declare with your friends independence of your neighbourhood sports yard - then think how does it look like for a neutral observer (I am not talking about an interested one!). Of course situation in conflict zones is no fun - but still.
"De facto independent state" is a state which is not internationally recognized, the problem of Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus is not just that they are unrecognized - they are occupied territories where the occupying force found it convenient to have a facade for the occupation which can give it (the force) more legitimacy - it is not new in human history.
My proposal - there has to be a special list for territories like Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus and the like. There can be no compromise on including them into "de facto independent states" list - to make a compromise on this means to make a political statement or take a politically motivated position, not a scientific description or classification. I need about a week to collect opinions and proposals on how to call this list - the name should be politically neutral, descriptive and correct (not in terms of political declarations, but in terms of what is really going on).
What do you think?
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :end>
<from decwindows: beginning>
< Both Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" do not fit the category or phrase "de facto independent state">
To my personal POV (summary) - if we talk of POVs so much here:
There are certain criteria which allow to call a country "an independent state" - de facto or de jure. And the lack of thereof leads to finding for its (a country) status another description.
1.Both Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" do not have defined territories - it is not just like they have no internationally recognized territories and borders. The reality is that their territories - actually zones of Russian military occupation - are sometimes shrinking, sometimes swelling - at times every day. Since there are Georgian guerilla movement (a couple of years ago the Georgian government demanded the organized guerilla groups to stop their activities - so by now there are only unorganized bunches of people operating - but still) - the zone of the Russian occupation is not stable, it is being changed. So even if someone would insist that the Russian occupation zone must inevitably be called the territory of "de facto independent state of Abkhazia" - even then it is anything, but stable, it is not permanent, it is literally, practically undefined - no one can say it starts here and ends there, because tomorrow there will be a military operation which will change the way the situation was yesterday and on the day after tomorrow other operation will change it in the opposite way - the reality is like this since 1993. Practically no big or medium size military operations, which could be of interest for major media agencies, but "small" fighting everyday. Both of these zones of Russian occupation are mostly not contiguous. "South Ossetia", for example, is a virtual chessboard - zone of the Georgian control and zone of the Russian control are intermixed.
2.Abkhazia has almost no permanent population - it is not just from 70 to 85% of the population is displaced under various pretexts. The remaining locals are moving out everyday. And slowly, but completely new (outsiders) persons are moving in. There are two state programs in Russia both of which aim to move and settle considerable amount of people to Abkhazia. One of the program has already begun - retired army and FSB (the new name of the KGB) officers are going to receive their apartments and cottages in several places - including Abkhazia. And some of them already moved in. And that is not all - the displaced persons infiltrate whenever and wherever they can, back - then some return to the unoccupied parts of Georgia, some stay, making the zone of the Georgian control wider, some are pushed out by the Russian forces etc etc etc.
3.Similar thing is with "South Ossetia" where the situation is less outrageus in many respects though.
6. The situation in the Russia occupied zone controlled by the Russian army and FSB-KGB - some fictitious "local authorities" do exist, but, for example, when Nazi Germany occupied western part of the USSR, the occupation zone had been divided into several entities - one of them was Reichskommissariat Ostland. Some "local authorities" existed there too, even "elections" were held - but should one explain who actually controlled the situation and for what reason Nazis made the step and created these "local authorities"?
One can say more than said above. But what is told by far is enough to be more reasonable - neither Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia" are not "de facto independent states", they can not be described in terms state, statehood at all. These are occupied territories as existed before in human history and unfortunately exists now. "Their" "claims for independence" exist only when someone of those who has been let to talk speaks to Western journalists. You should watch Russian TV channels news programs in Russia (in Russian) - and there would not have been long discussions here in wikipedia.org. Maybe for someone it is romantic - tiny ethnic group fighting for independence and he (or she) can not help it but to have his (her) consciousness manipulated by those who propel these moods minding their own interests. But I call on you to be reasonable and responsible - this is no computer game to have favours towards some characters and disgust towards the others. This is the real life - the biggest online encyclopaedia visited by millions of surfers - all speculations about the "status" of Abkhazia, Northern Cyprus etc etc etc are politics, the nature of any encyclopaedia supposes to try to be academic, concentrating on facts not on declarations and favours.
<Both Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" do not fit the category or phrase "de facto independent state">
<from decwindows: end>
In my opinionthe question is simple, if the Foreign Ministry of my country does not list a particular entiry in its list of states, this is not a state. -- Bete 08:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Krauklis: Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" are NOT the states. They are Russian-occupied territories with small groups of gagngsters and terrorists acting as pro-Russian puppet "governments". Manchukuo was also prtending to be a "state" during WW2.
Jiang, I agree that all significant povs should be presented. What we seem to disagree is where in the article this should be done. I think listing the contraversial state in the "List of sovereign states" it is not netral (footnote or not). By placing them in a seperate list with the arguments about why they can or can't be considered sovereign states we represent a NPOV with all significant POVs present. I do not understand why you can't agree on that.( PaC 07:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :beginning>
There IS a sizeable fraction believing that neither Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus can be described as "de facto independent states" and "states" at all. Not just believing, but giving facts, information, which show Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus are just facades for Russian and Turkish military occupation - as was South Lebanon a facade for Israel occupation of Lebanon�s territory and as were local "authorities" in Reichskommissariat Ostland just a façade for Nazi German occupation of USSR territory. I would say more � most of people in this discussion see no reason in including Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus in "de facto independent states" category or list - just look at the postings.
On the other hand I do not think it is reasonable to make a decision (when we talk of an encyclopaedia and information which may give someone the idea what is really going on) - speaking in terms like "sizeable fraction" or "voting" - if there will be a sizeable fraction believing H2SO4 is a metal � will you put H2SO4 in metals list or if majority will vote for the same? I hope you will not.
So I would like to propose to make it, for example, in a kind of "mechanic" way - there is a table of "features" which "lets" a territory to be called a state ("de facto independent state", for example) - you fill the table cells with data, then count the result. If you do not think there is a widely accepted (or accepted by common sense) table of "features" - there are certainly existing moments which clearly show what is what - if there is no more or less stable territory, almost no permanent population, a territory is militarily occupied by an army of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring � does not matter) state, whole economical, political, security etc situation controlled by the army and special services of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring - does not matter) state - then where is this "de facto independent state". Declarations of some very limited in numbers individuals are not arguments. You can make an experiment - declare with your friends independence of your neighbourhood sports yard - then think how does it look like for a neutral observer (I am not talking about an interested one!). Of course situation in conflict zones is no fun - but still.
"De facto independent state" is a state which is not internationally recognized, the problem of Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus is not just that they are unrecognized - they are occupied territories where the occupying force found it convenient to have a facade for the occupation which can give it (the force) more legitimacy - it is not new in human history.
My proposal - there has to be a special list for territories like Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus and the like. There can be no compromise on including them into "de facto independent states" list - to make a compromise on this means to make a political statement or take a politically motivated position, not a scientific description or classification. I need about a week to collect opinions and proposals on how to call this list - the name should be politically neutral, descriptive and correct (not in terms of political declarations, but in terms of what is really going on).
What do you think?
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :end>
I am renaming this topic Separate list for disputed territories ( PaC 10:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Would the two territory be qualified to be included for fulfilling the definition of sovereign state to a certain degree? According to a map from the UN Decolonisation Committee (courtesy User:QuartierLatin1968 for providing the link at talk:list of countries by area ) the two are even eligible for UN memberships, comparable, to some extent, the case of Switzerland before 2000. — Insta ntnood 18:15, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Although it is self-governing, it is in free association with New Zealand. This means that the sovereign in right of New Zealand is also the head of state of Niue, and most diplomatic relations are conducted by New Zealand on Niue's behalf.
I we continue that line of thought, in what respect are the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man not souvereign? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 ( talk • contribs) 13:45, February 25, 2006 (UTC).
I don't get that. It seems to me that those island are merely in a personel union with the UK, with the UK taking care of foreign relations. So what's the difference?
I've never heard of Niue and the Cook Islands being considered sovereign before. They are, it would seem, closer to being sovereign than any other non-sovereign entity, but they are certainly not fully sovereign, since another state conducts their foreign relations (on the other hand, see Andorra and Monaco, which are also arguably not fully sovereign). The most analogous situation, I think, would be to the Dominions before the Statute of Westminster - they have many attributes of sovereign states, but are ultimately in a dependent relationship. It might also be noted that UN membership does not necessarily track with sovereignty - India was a member from 1945 (and had been a member of the League of Nations, as well). john k 19:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting to note that the Cook Islands constitution actually says that the Cook Islands Parliament is sovereign:
So the Cook Islands has —(a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states — and it is legally sovereign according to its constitution. So why is it not on this list?
Ben Arnold 00:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't have relations with other states. Currently, Cook Islands law allows New Zealand to conduct its foreign relations for it. So it might be argued that it doesn't have the capacity to enter into relations with other states. john k 00:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade claims that the Cook Island does have diplomatic relations with other states in its own name[www.mfat.govt.nz/foreign/regions/pacific/country/cookislandspaper.html] [1]. New Zealand is not empowered to unilaterally enter into diplomatic relations on behalf of the Cook Islands. Ben Arnold 04:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, in that case, we can note that the Montevideo Convention is not universally recognized as a judge of who is a sovereign state and who is not. In generaly, the Cook Islands and Niue are not listed as sovereign states. Although, in some ways, their status is analogous to that of the Marshall Islands or Palau (iirc), those former are treated as sovereign states, while the Cook Islands and Niue aren't. I do think that some mention of them ought to be made here, but perhaps not in the main list. john k 05:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"you will see that this list includes de facto states. The question here is whether Abkhazia and South Ossetia are de facto states, and the answer is yes, so they can be included".
But they are not de facto states! They are occupied territories with administration appointed from Russia and among Russian citizens. They are precisely de facto occupied territories! So they should not be included.
23:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)~
They are de facto independent. Case closed. — Nightst a llion (?) 18:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Nightstallion, A LOT OF arguments and FACTS have been brought confirming Abkhazia and South Ossetia not being even de facto independent.It seems you don't even bother to read what other people say. Pirveli 20:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Nightstallion, you clearly do not understand the concept of well argumented debate and proof. Let me venture a guess: a not-math-related major. “I am tired of this” - is not an argument. “They are de facto independent. Case closed " - is not a proof.
First of, why do even bring up de facto as an argument. The article has a clear definition with four parts. This means that you should start from this definition if you want to prove anything. Or you should argue that a different definition should be used. The fact that the first sentence is using the words de facto only means that this sentence is misleading and should be brought in compliance with the definition.
Second of all, why do you even insist that they are de facto independent? People here brought forth plenty of arguments to support the opposite (even though they did not have to do this, see my first point), and you still stubbornly refuse to give, without any valid arguments except for “I am tired of this...”
Where do you get your definition of de facto anyways? Let's look at what Wikipedia has to say about de facto independence, shall we? Look under Politics[ [2]], last paragraph: “a nation with de facto independence is one that is not recognized by other nations or by international bodies, even though it has its own government that exercises ABSOLUTE control over its claimed territory.”
It's been shown here beyond any reasonable doubt that none of these entities have governments that “exercise absolute control over their claimed territories”. Well, it turns out that even your attempt to hide behind “de facto” clause fails miserably. What do you have to say now besides “I am tired”? Silently revert it again? ( PaC 22:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
<from decwindows>My arguments for that (you could see full text above in the "Removal of Abkhazia and South Ossetia" "article")
Abkhazia has almost no permanent population - it is not just from 70 to 85% of the population is displaced under various pretexts. The remaining locals are moving out everyday. And slowly, but completely new (outsiders) persons are moving in. There are two state programs in Russia both of which aim to move and settle considerable amount of people to Abkhazia. One of the program has already begun - retired army and FSB (the new name of the KGB) officers are going to receive their apartments and cottages in several places - including Abkhazia. And some of them already moved in. And that is not all - the displaced persons (Georgian refugee) infiltrate whenever and wherever they can, back - then some return to the unoccupied parts of Georgia, some stay, making the zone of the Georgian control wider, some are pushed out by the Russian forces etc etc etc.
And Reichskommissariat Ostland had certain population too � only not everyone was "over" sure he (or she) is not going to get into a concentration camp and die there or if he (or she) is not going to be just mudered on the street for belonging to a "wrong" ethnic group or for being "suspicious". And many were mudered, many would ran away to the unoccupied territories of the USSR, many would ran back - seeing no warm welcoming there; many ran to the forests to guerilla groups etc etc etc.
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
It is not only "Abkhazia" and "South Ossetia" do not control all "their" territories - all, completely all "their" territories are controlled either by (mostly) the Russian army and or by Georgia - and there are zones of fighting for control between Russia and Georgia. "South Ossetia" is a real chessboard of zones of Russian-Georgian control.
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
There were"local authorities" and even "elections" in Reichskommissariat Ostland on occupied by Nazis USSR territory - so what? And now similar thing is in Northern Cyprus, "Abkhazia" and "South Ossetia" too � so what?
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
Russian president regularily meets mayor of Moscow (capital of Russia) - and? Hitler had met some of "authorities" from Reichskommissariat Ostland - and? And listing Northern Cyprus as "de facto independent state" is objected as much as listing there "Abkhazia", "South Ossetia", South Lebanon (in section "de facto independent states" of the past), Reichskommissariat Ukraine (in section "de facto independent states" of the past).
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
[Please see my previous arguments - in the "Removal of Abkhazia and South Ossetia" article]
<from decwindows>
Trying to cut a potentially enervatingly long discussion short: Maybe we could arrive at a rather simple compromise. I do not contest that the status of A&SO as de facto independent states is not as strong as the one of Somaliland (the only de facto independent state not originally occupied by another state's army). Since, however, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh and Northern Cyprus are commonly referred to as de facto independent states in media and scientific texts (despite the fact that they could be argued not to have control over their territory, but instead being occupied by another state's army), we could simply make our notes for them read "commonly considered de facto independent" and "claim contested", or something along those lines. What do you say to that? — Nightst a llion (?) 12:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Such notes are a good idea, however these regions should be listed separately from the sovereign states. We can just make 3 sections (just like it is in the flags and coat of arms' lists) - 1.sovereign states; 2.unrecognized states; 3.dependant territories. We already have all of them together in the List of countries. So, it's no need to mix these categories once more in the other lists. Including this one. Pirveli 15:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I don’t like the idea of mentioning Abkhazia or South Ossetia as a sovereign states (I am not knowledgeable enough to make similar statements for Northern Cyprus and the likes). I have presented numerous arguments for why they are not sovereign and I believe putting them in the same list with indisputably sovereign countries is promoting certain political agenda (in this case Russian political agenda). Just to reiterate, my main argument is that a sovereign entity can be politically dependent on another sovereign entity. Not only Abkhazia and South Ossetia are under complete political control of Russia, but they simply can not exist without Russian support. That is if Russia were to disappear tomorrow, both Abkhazia and South Ossetia would collapse. I truly don’t see how entities that cannot exits by themselves are sovereign. I understand, however, that due to Russian propaganda these entities have been presented to the rest of the world as “sovereign”, and as it has been said, they are referred in many places as “de facto” independent countries. Now, there are several solutions I can see:
Also, until the dispute is resolved is it possible to “hide” the article so we don’t have to revert it 20 times a day? As there is still no consensus I see the current state of the article as endorsing Russian POV. If it was hidden we could continue the discussion peacefully until the matter is resolved and only then “unhide” it. Irakliy81 01:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Abkhazia is not soveren state!
. . .
<decwindows: my poposal - beginning>
I do not think Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" are states at all, they, as "states" or "not-states", exist only "on TV" - only in mass media and (partly) in politics sphere. In reality, the regions which are claimed to be the places of their existence are territories partly militarily occupied by Russia, partly remain under Georgian control. But the idea of their existence is used by Russia as an "excuse", a facade for occupation. They are NOT "de facto independent states", they are NOT "unrecognized states" - just occupied territories. My arguments may be read above on the page.
So I believe they should not be in a list, containing word "states".
I believe they undoubtedly must be listed somewhere - I am not insisting they should be in a list called "occupied territories". It is a fair description, but may be considered to be emotional or politically motivated - it is like when one sees a perspired person to point out and to say "this one is perspired" - it is not something anyone would expect - even if it is technically correct.
I propose to make a starting list "States and territories" or "List of states and territories"
With subdivisions:
1. "Sovereign states" or just "Independent states" 2. "Territories with disputed status"
All separatist territories or considered by some to be separatist territories meet perfectly well number 2 position. "Territories with disputed status" - that is what they are: (half-joke) - I believe they are "occupied territories", Nightstallion believes they are "de facto independent states". Word "territory" is much more neutral. Both a "de facto independent state" and an "occupied territory" are territories. So if one insists they are "de facto independent states" and the other they are "occupied territory" - both of the persons can not deny that they or "they" are a part of the planet Earth - territories.
The word "territory" is much neutral politically - if you call some entity "state" - makes little difference a "de facto independent state" or just an "independent state" - you TAKE a POLITICAL (or politically motivated) position.
Listing phenomena like Abkhazia, "South Ossetia" or Northern Cyprus in "Territories with disputed status" and giving in the article all POVs you let the wikipedia.org visitor to decide for himself (or herself) how to describe them "states" or whatever.
<decwindows: my poposal - end>
I like decwindows’ idea better if the division would be sovereign states and territories with disputed status I would support it 100% Irakliy81 04:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. State is synonym of sovereign state. Diplomatic recognition is among the criteria that must be fulfilled to be considered a sovereign state. We already have a separate list for self-proclaimed sovereign states with little or no diplomatic recognition. —
Insta
ntnood
15:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't oppose the move (careful with capitalization though), but I see problems in the split sections. What is "States with disputed sovereignty" supposed to mean? Who is disputing the sovereignty? Can I declare myself world dictator and dispute the sovereignty of every single state in the world? It cannot be npov without clear criteria, and it must be ensured that this criteria is clearly followed. -- Jiang 17:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Oppose By creating different categories/levels, we get into the fragmented mess of having endless discussion of where to place a so-and-so entity to one of those categories. We run into the danger of circumstantial POV accusations or supporting a hidden agenda (even if we do not intend to do so) when we place an entity into a certain section. Some people will get headaches when they realize that they have to go to another section to search for a so-and-so entity. And then in the future there will be new wikipedia users who might see all of this mess and enter into another round of revert wars. I agree that the current list is controversial, but I think that things will become even more controversial if we suddently create different classes of states. I really think footnotes and introductory notes are sufficient and accessable and say enough. If that's not enough for you, we could place additionally notes next to the entity of interest while keeping the alphabetical order of the state listing. We don't have to overdo things; we should keep things simple. If Wikipedia had a truly cross-reference database to help people find a certain entity among the so-called proposed different categories of states, perhaps I would be less opposed. Allentchang 00:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's try to approach this from a different direction.
( PaC 02:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
Let's see where we stand on this. I hope this approach does not annoy anybody. I personally find that it works well. Again, do not think of this as a final vote of some sort. Just a pre-screening of our positions. If we all agree we can proceed further if not we'll discuss it some more. ( PaC 02:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
...
...
...
====Do you agree to change the criteria for inclusion in the list from Montevideo Convention's to smth like “Recognized by at least several UN member states”?==== If not please suggest an alternative (or say Montevideo criteria).
...
...
To keep it clean, let's place our comments on Proposal II (criteria) here, so that the others can follow our train of thought ( PaC 02:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
I would like to change the definition to "a sovereign state must have diplomatic relations with more than one other sovereign state." Irakliy81 02:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Jiang, just out of curiosity, since you don’t think Montevideo Convention is ambiguous, would you explain what exactly is meant by “government” (criterion c) and “capacity” to enter into relations with the other states (criterion d). I understand that if an entity has a “government” it has the “capacity” to enter into diplomatic relations with other states, whether it utilizes this capacity or not. Example: California has a government, there is nothing preventing a Governor of California from entering into diplomatic relations with Mexico. I am not saying that such a move would be beneficial for California, nor that Mexico would want to do that, I’m just saying that “capacity” is there. Yet, we all know that California is not a “sovereign state” (even though it could easily exist without the rest of the United States), so either I am misunderstanding these two definitions or they are ambiguous. Irakliy81 08:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Allentchang, a non-scientist person, which you are caring about will be confused and misinformed, if the encyclopedia article tells him, that separatist regions have the same status as the sovereign states. Also, many non-scientist persons won't pay attention to the notes. Thus, the uncontrolled reigions, like Waziristan, Karen, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Tamil Eelam, etc should be listed separately from France, Hungary or Brazil. Othervise, a great number of non-scientist users, who you seem to care about are being misinformed. Pirveli 17:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Just some rough idea.. would it be possible to create a list of sovereign states by diplomatic recognition (i.e. by number of sovereign states with official, but not de facto, diplomatic relations), and/or a list of sovereign states by recognition/acknowledgement of existence. Using North Korea as an example, which does not have diplomatic relations with the United States, but its existence is acknowledged/recognised by the United States, the United States will not be counted in North Korea's figure in the former, and will be counted in the latter. —
Insta
ntnood
20:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to note, there clearly are barriers to California entering into diplomatic relations with Mexico - notably the United States Constitution:
Seems pretty clear to me that California, along with most other subnational entities, does not meet the Montevideo criteria for the last point. Which isn't to say that the point is unambiguous - I think it's quite ambiguous. What do we make of the constituent states of the German Empire - they all had defined territory, a permanent population, a government, and actually had diplomatic relations with other states. The kingdoms (Bavaria, Saxony, and Württemberg) actually had foreign ministers and maintained diplomatic relations with various states - not only other German states, but, iirc, with other European countries, notably Austria. I also seem to remember that Hesse-Darmstadt, due to long-standing family ties to the Russian Imperial House, kept an ambassador in St. Petersburg. So, the German states would seem, in fact, to be sovereign states under the Montevideo doctrine. Another weird case: the heretofore discussed Cook Islands and Niue. The foreign relations of these countries are under the control of New Zealand. However, the governments of these places have the right to take over control of their own foreign affairs and enter into relations with other states if they want to. Except that they don't. And, furthermore, I think it would actually require some affirmative steps for them to actually be able to do so - they'd have to amend their constitution to remove the management of foreign affairs from the New Zealand government. So it's quite arguable that the Cook Islands both have, and do not have, the ability to enter into relations with other states. What about the British Dominions before 1931? They were members of the League of Nations. Canada had foreign ministers from 1909, Australia from 1901, South Africa from 1927, and the Irish Free State from 1922. And they certainly meet the other three criteria. But they're normally not considered to have been fully sovereign, and their conduct of foreign relations was fairly limited. What about India before 1947 - it was a member of both the League and the UN, although I don't think it had diplomatic relations with any individual countries. It also clearly meets the other three criteria. But it obviously wasn't a Sovereign State - its government was almost entirely appointed by the government of a foreign country. But yet, it seems arguable that it meets the "ability to enter into relations with other states" business, since it did, in fact, have relations with other states through the League and the UN.
The defined territory requirement seems likewise to be ambiguous. Does Israel have a defined territory? It seems arguable that it doesn't. Western Sahara has a claimed territory, but it doesn't control most of it. Does that fit the definition? What about the Palestinians? Both Western Sahara and Palestine are recognized by many countries as sovereign, but I would argue that neither, and especially not the Palestinians, has a defined territory. john k 21:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Allentchang, you say that you do not think that Montevideo criteria are vague when answering the question above, and yet you go on and on explaining how good the vagueness provided by these criteria is. Make up your mind. Is it vague or not? ( PaC 00:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
John K has a good point that when there are several different methods each of them is a POV. However, "recognition by states" criterion is no less neutral then Montevideo criteria, and by far less ambiguous. As to where to make a cut-off, i.e. how many states should recognize the state to be included in the list, I think the word "several" is a good choice. It emphasizes the significance of recognition - it's definitely more then one. It also has some vagueness to it, that is so dear to Allentchang, yet at current state of affairs this vagueness is not an issue. ( PaC 00:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
Can other editors who participated in this discussion also share their thoughts about this proposal with us? Sorry for "shouting" ( PaC 15:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
How many states does one need to recognise a lightbulb?
How about a table with a range of different possible criteria for souvereignity? Each state would get ticks in the colomns of the criteria that they match. Criteria could be:
- recognition by UN
- recognition by at least one UN member [this would rule in Taiwan, Northern Turkey, West-Sahara, Palestina]
- claims to be independant [this would rule out Taiwan, Palestina, Kosova, Tamil Elam, etc.]
- de facto independance from any other state that claims souvereignity over its teritory [note that this would rule in A, SO, NK, NC regardless of independance from Russia/Armenia/Turkey plus all other entries]
We could then restrict inclusion to teritories that behave independantly from any other teritory that disputes the first teritory's independance. Thus we would include the de facto 6 and a few rebel movements such as Tamil Elam, but exclude teritories with home rule such as the Faroer or sub-national entities such as California. We would have one list, but countries with an incomplete series of 'ticks' would stand out. Alternatively, we could have different sections for all the different possible sets of ticks, even though that would impede clarity. Footnotes could explain how or why some country does not fit some definition and give additional information such as Somalia's total lack of state control, or Israel's not being recognised by some Arabian countries.
Thoughts? [sephia karta]
The point is that it does according to some definitions that approximate "might makes right". [sephia karta]
On the first question: De facto independent states does not cover a number of important issues. In many (but not all) cases for instance, the territory they claim belongs to another state, and that fact is recognised as such by all or most members of the international community of states that recognise each others territorial integrity. So these places have no place in the communion of states based on that. Recognition of territorial integrity by others is a defining factor.
On the second question: It is definitely NPOV. Recognition is either extended to a state or not. It can be unclear as to how many recognitions it takes. In practice that will only question the status of Taiwan ROC at this moment. But incidently both ROC and PROC claim the same territory and no state recognises both, therefore this is not about the recognition of a state but of which government of said state (i.c. China)
On the third question: Something like that, although I see no reason why they should be UN member states. Just recognised states will do. I would have no problem with a number like ten or twenty.
On the fourth question: Yes, a seperate list of unrecognised countries would be fine. Gerard von Hebel 20:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Judging from the votes above it is clear that at least half the people find Montevideo Convention at least somewhat vague, and majority agree to include the recognition by other states as at lest part of the criteria for sovereignty. I think it would be wise to take Montevideo Convention and improve on it by defining some of the criterions more clearly. I propose to set criteria for sovereignty as follows:
Explanation: Criteria 1 and 2 are directly from Montevideo Convention. Criterion 3 is also almost a direct copy. However, a small addition will help to exclude any sub national entity.
Motivation for criterion 4: If an entity is under a complete control of another entity it can not be sovereign by definition. However, in modern world a true sovereignty is almost impossible to find. All states in one form or another depend on other states. A relative sovereignty of such states is ensured by a large number of states they depend on. If however, a state depends on one and only one other state, it is not sovereign but is rather a dependant or a satellite of that state (a “puppet state”). The quick and dirty way to determine this is through recognition. That is, if an entity is de facto recognized by at least 2 indisputably sovereign states it is sovereign itself. The motivation here is that while it is possible to be a “puppet” state of one state, it is almost impossible to be a “puppet” state of 2 or more states simultaneously.
Once we determine which states are sovereign and which are not we can also have a separate list of territories that do not meet the criteria but are commonly referred to as de facto independent. Or we can mention those territories in the introduction and provide a link to the list of de facto independent states. Also, in the introduction we can mention that the new criteria are derived from the Montevideo Convention. -- Irakliy81 18:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody volunteer to create a preliminary new version of the article along the lines that seem to have a majority support:
I am extremely busy next week and will have hard time participating in the discussion. ( PaC 00:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC))
I must disagree with solely the criterium of recognition being a measure for souvereignity. There exists the constitutive theory of statehood and the declaritive theory of statehood. According to the former, recognition is indeed vital. According to the latter, a state is determined by factors independant of recognition. Defining souvereignity as merely being recognised by several other souvereign states is biased towards the constitutive theory of statehood.
Aside from that, the definition above is still recursive and therefore unworkable.[sephia karta]
There is already a List of countries, where most of the entities are included.
There should be at least one list with the sovereign states actually. Othervise, according to the declarative theory, anyone can declare his own house to be an independent state and demand it's inclusion to all the encyclopedias.
Pirveli
19:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
<from decwindows (09.03.06): beginning>
I would like to repeat my proposal (of 2 March 2006):
<<< <<< <<< I propose to make a starting list "States and territories" or "List of states and territories"
With subdivisions:
1. "Sovereign states" or "Independent states", or just "States"
2. "Territories with disputed status" or "Territories with [whatever will be found relevant by our discussion]" or just "Territories" >>> >>> >>>
I mean - to list de jure independent states in "Sovereign states" or just "States" section. All other entities (both real and "imaginary" - those which "exist" only in mass media, and of all other possible sorts) in "Territories with disputed status". Or just "Territories" - giving the information (if it - the territory - is believed to be seeking independence or not: like Bavaria or Tirol) in the article dedicated to a territory itself.
Excuse me for just repeating my 7 day old POV, but creating a "Territories with disputed status" list or whatever with the key word "Territory" - NOT "State", will save a lot of talks and misunderstandings.
Word "State" implicates a lot. By using it ("State") you make a statement - whatever your intentions are - it is like to name a sportsman "the champion" while his (her) championship is not recognized yet (for example, because the court decision is not set yet on whether there has been an doping drug of some kind used or not). Or imagine calling a person under suspicions "a criminal" or "a convict" before the official court decision - you will very much possibly see the court yourself after being that loose about words. A "suspect" is the "worst" name used for a person "with charges". Because naming a person "a criminal" implicates the person IS a criminal - which may, by 50 % probability, have nothing to do with the reality. Having discussions whether the probability is of 80% or 10% will lead away from the really important and relevant things - investigation, court hearings etc. So before the official court decision ONLY neutral, "none-convicting" words are used.
In world politics there are several structures positioning themselves as kind of "courts", deciding how a territory status should be legally, juristically defined in terms of the international law - and wikipedia.org is not one of them. And giving an implicating, "convicting", not neutral name to an entity of the world politics is the same as calling "a murderer" a person who is only a suspect - you may argue in a million of ways that the person is a "de facto" murderer - hardly any sound person would agree with you until the investigation, the court etc are over.
So my strong position is - AVOID CALLING, LISTING ETC an entity as a "state" before it is internationally recognized as such. "Internationally" should mean by the UN or there should be given special consideration (like Switzerland has not been a UN member state for a long time; Ukraine and Byelorussia had been UN members since the UN beginning - before becoming the international law "subjects" - not "objects", before "real" independence).
Using names like "self-proclaimed sovereign states", "unrecognized countries" - is no "excuse" - it is like "self-convicted criminals", "unrecognized convicts".
So I suppose to call all conflict zones, referred to as "separatist" (positioned in some way, proclaimed to be based on any possible grounds (or lack of thereof) as entities aspiring a separate existence) "a Territory" would suit wikipedia.org best as an encyclopeadia, not a political propaganda group.
I propose to make first a most general division, to be clear about the top classification level - "[De jure] States", "not States". I propose to call "not States" - "Territories". And then to discuss the criteria for an entity (a territory) to be defined as "de facto" or "partly sovereign" or whatever.
I believe "Territory" is a neutral enough word - it is a part of the planet Earth. You can discuss if it is only a part of the planet’s surface or plus something below and to what extend "below" - still it will be a "Territory". You can discuss if it is de facto independent or not - still it is a "Territory". And a very, very implicating and controversial word "State" will be avoided in all questionable situations.
<from decwindows (09.03.06): end>
Are Native American tribes regarded as sovereign states? Especially if they have federal and/or state recognition? Asarelah 23:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that a notation should be listed in the B section
something like "Burma: see Myanmar" The US government does not recognize the name Myanmar for the country and uses the name Burma. A cross reference may prove helpful and eliminate confusion. -- Ted-m 23:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Although Montenegro had officially declared its independence on June 3, and according to the constitution the other member of the union (i.e. Serbia) would be a successor to the union, until this moment neither the parliament of the union nor the Serbian parliament has declared Serbia's succession of the union. The union still exists with one member. Would it be correct to include both Montenegro and Serbia and Montenegro (instead of Serbia) on this list, until the union officially made the name change from Serbia and Montenegro to Serbia? — Insta ntnood 09:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
As I edited the page, according to the status quo: - Montenegro IS an independent state after de facto (but not official) recognition of its independence by the European Union and the state union of Serbia and Montenegro (according to the agreement proceeding the referendum that stated that if 55%+ vote for independence, the country will be independent) - Serbia and Montenegro does exist as a country, with Serbia being its only constituent part until they declare independence too (expected to do so within the week) and become the successor state of the union. Therefore, both Montenegro and Serbia and Montenegro should be on the list for the time being. Dr. Manos 17:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
A procedure for Montenegro's independence and the dissolvement of the State Union was agreed upon long before independence actually happened. At the time Montenegro declared independence this procedure was therefore implicitly executed and the State Union ceased to exist. No country has to ask the UN permission to change its name! Gerard von Hebel 00:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Names in the first line "Federated States of Micronesia" and in English line "Federates States of Micronesia" differs. What is correct?-- 81.17.152.207 17:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The latter would appear to be a typo. john k 03:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Addition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) as a sovereign entitiy:
Kertenkelebek 12:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it fulfils the criteria - although it lacks a de facto relationship with the European Union or the USA (this is not a Taiwan case) and it does not have relations with any state without the intervention of Turkey - de facto relationship can only be argued in the case of Azerbaijan through the charter flights to the Nicosia Airport. Dr. Manos 14:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but no. Other than Turkey, every country in the world considers its territory to be part of the Republic of Cyprus. And the fact that the TRNC has an office in Washington doesn't mean that the US gives it de facto recognition - that would only work if the US had an office in North Cyprus somewhere. By your definition, the Confederacy was de facto recognized by England and France because Mason and Slidell lived in London and Paris as "ambassadors," and even met with government officials occasionally. That's not how it works. john k 15:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It's at least as sovereign as the other unrecognised states, either we have all of them or none. — Nightst a llion (?) 12:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
BionicWilliam 10:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me why the Sovereign States of the Fifty States, United are not here? For instance, California Republic, whose Constitution has never been repealed and which has a voting public (the California Jural Society. It has a flag, a Constitution, a populace, and territory. Now I'm not looking for an argument, just a definitive answer why it is not included... The United States, and its Internal Revenue System (quietly) acknowledges its citizen's claims, why not wikipedia? Pedant 02:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Becuase the California Republic no longer exists. Whether repealed or not the actual entity that controls the population and territory of California is the State of California which is subject to the Federal Govt. Can California enter into relations with say Cuba or Mexico without Federal approval ? 201.238.87.153 21:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason to keep the English Translations in the List of States section, given that the heading of each state is already written in English? Examples include The Bahamas, Dominica, India, Kenya. Suggest deletion for all redundent translations and refraining from adding more English-English translations.
Note that List of sovereign state flags also redirects here, so some people who want to look up a flag might find themselves at this article. But the flag images are so small that they are barely visible.
It would make this article a lot more useful if flag image sizes were about 3 times as big as the present size. It would make looking up flags a lot easier for people who saw a flag somewhere but don't know which country does it belong to. After all this is the purpose of Wikipedia as an encylopedia: to make it possible to easily look up things.
There is a gallery of sovereign state flags. When we had an independent list of sovereign state flags (which was originally list of national flags), just like here there was no end of arguments over what to include. It was better to keep the lists and arguments syncronised in one article, rather than trying to build the same consensus twice. If a person is looking for a larger image then they can always click on the link of the one they wish to see. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
In the article first it is claimed that states that satisfy the Montevideo criteria are listed, including those that lack international recognition. Further down however, all such states are taken apart and are not included in the main list, except for Taiwan, seemingly merely due to greater "popularity". Additionally, Somalia which hardly satisfies the Montevideo criteria is included in the list. This, people, is a joke. No matter what the text claims, this is not a list of states satisfying the Montevideo criteria. I suggest that the list be either adapted to fit the Montevideo criteria, or that reference to these be removed and the page be renamed to "List of Internationally Recognised states". Or better, we do both and have two lists. Sephia karta 19:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The reason ROC is included it is a recgonized enity by many states. All of the ones you added are unrecognize by any countries BionicWilliam 00:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Listing these various dubious entities whose "independence" is entirely maintained by foreign armies seems highly problematic to me, and suggests POV pushing. Would we have included Bophuthatswana and Ciskei, as well? john k 16:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
This is true, but necessity to control all claimed territory is highly problematic imo. It is not required by the Montevideo convention and if we were to apply it, Georgia itself would fail the list, along with Argentinia, Marrocco, Japan, China, and Taiwan would fail spectacularily. I think the problem exists that having a list of sovereign countries necessarily involves a cut-off criterium and reduces the problem to a yes/no question thus ignoring the fact that 'independance', being one's own master, is a gliding scale. Ideally we would have a ranking of sovereign countries, with possibly the US on top and South-Ossetia trailing somewhere near to the bottom, but in absence of a feasable method to rank states thusly, the best we can do is choose a criterium defined as clearly as possible that seperates the weakly independant states from the not independant states, and at the same time indicate in the text when a state only barely meets the criterium. Sephia karta 13:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This convention was signed only by 19 countries, all in America: Honduras, United States of America, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay, Paraguay, Mexico, Panama, Guatemala, Brazil, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Colombia, Chile, Peru, Cuba. See the convention. No European country signed this convention. How can some of you consider this convention as a serious thing? Regarding current debate about secessionist territories, China, Cyprus, Moldova, Georgia didn't sign this convention.-- MariusM 17:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
At first, I thought that MariusM didn't know what he was talking about. However, he is being maliciously misleading because he knows better: See Talk:Montevideo Convention. The convention is a codification of standard practice of international law. International law applies worldwide, and the main principles of the convention are accepted by all countries except rogue states. In other words, its contents is not limited to just the signatories. With specific regards to Europe, the exact same principles are common in declarations from numerous European countries on recognition of states issues, and are shared by all. - Mauco 17:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Surely Sealand deserves to be included, on any of the normally accepted definitions of sovereignty. TharkunColl 12:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Sealand is a state under the Montevido Convention. It complies with all terms:
(a) a permanent population. The Bates family lives permanently on Sealand.
(b) a defined territory. There is a debate as to how much, but Sealand is recognized as owning some territory.
(c) government. Certainly. Sealand has a functioning leadership.
(d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. During the brief attempted coup, the Netherlands and Germany negotiated directly with Sealand to provide for the release of their countries' prisoners.
If nobody objects, I will add Sealand. -- 203.198.23.68 08:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
From the Wikipedia article on Sealand: "The interactions of the UK and German governments with Sealand constitute de facto recognition. Sealand claims de facto legitimacy on this basis." We can't contradict ourselves. Sealand is de facto recognized, and should be on this page.-- Imp88 23:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
This has been discussed previously - Sealand is not a country and should not be listed. Reality check - Paddy Bates is just a squatter on HM Rough Tower. While he claims it to be a country, it could never be considered a country as it has no territory (It is is a man-made structure, which by definition is not a territory). Also it has not been recognized by any other country (Recognition has to be mutual and both Germany and the UK have stated the do not recognize Sealand). -- ( Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 02:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, maybe you're right, but isn't this a double standard? I don't recall Transnistria interacting with any foreign goverments. And a few countries on the list aren't recognized either. Not to mention that Sealand not only claims HM Rough Tower, but 3 km of ocean around it. Hong Kong has a huge portion of man-made area, and we don't say that it isn't territory. -- Imp88 06:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Never mind then. -- Imp88 04:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
According to the argument that I have presented above several weeks ago and for which I haven’t received any counter arguments I am removing Abkazia from the list completely. Also, I am removing South Ossetia because it is not a sovereign region but a part of Georgian territory occupied by Russia. Here is proof: 1) Almost entire South Ossetian population has Russian Citizenship 2) Russia does not require visas for people who live in South Ossetia (while it does for the rest of Georgia) 3) Russia directly appoints leaders and minister of South Ossetia (i.e. minister of defense of South Ossetia is a Russian citizen who is currently on active military duty with Russian department of defense). 4) Russian “peacekeeping” forces do not perform their peacekeeping duties (this was recently recognized by Georgian parliament) but rather are occupy Georgian territory and oppress Georgian population. Irakliy81 19:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Khoikhoi, read the following, please. And reply, if you have ANY arguments. Othervise, stop reverts:
As it was already said, listing of the uncontrolled territories together with sovereign states, like USA, South Korea, etc is an absurd. There is one more question, how about Western Papua, and the Burmese (Myanmar) territories of the Kachin, Karen, Wa, Shan and other peoples? They are absolutely de facto independant from the Burmese government. Many territories in Northern Caucasus (not only in Chechnya) are not controlled by Russia. Pakistani government has absolutly no control over the territory of Waziristan. Do you think that all these territories (and many more which I haven't mentioned) are more controlled by the central governments than South Ossetia for example? If you do, you are really wrong. I don't think we must have double standards here. Ok, if all the uncontrolled regions are in the list of countries, as Jiang has justly mentioned, it's no need to create a section for "unrecognized countries". If someone thinks, there should be such a section with separatist regions included, I won't object. What I say, is that Sovereign States must be in a separate list from the uncontrolled territories. Now, I'm removing the separatist regions from the List. Pirveli 20:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Latinus, Transnistria was NOT included, as well as other uncontrolled territories untill that reverts. There was no double standards, untill that reverts. Read what I say above, what I'm doing is trying to get rid of the double standards, thats it! Pirveli 20:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
some people but by others" is rediculous :).
Latinus, including regions in the list just because some people think these regions are de facto independent is not a sound criterion. The criteria for de facto independence are listed at the top of the article they are: a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. First of all I’m not happy with these criteria for they are vague. For example, lets consider Texas, it fits the definition, and I will tell you that there are groups of people who consider Texas to be independent from the United States; however, putting Texas on this list would be ridiculous. Now, let’s consider Abkhazia for example, a) Permanent population - more than 50% of Abkhazian population are refugees who cannot safely return to their homes, and would return as soon as someone would guarantee their safety. So, can you really say that Abkhazia has permanent population? b) Abkhazia does have defined territory, so no argument here. c) Government (by that I assume independent government): Abkhazian government (including the president) is directly controlled from Moscow. The last presidential elections (as I point out in one of my previous posts) show that very well. Would you say that, for example, France has independent government if German prime minister could appoint a French president? d) Capacity to enter into relations with other states -- this is a very vague term which I’m not even sure how to approach. No UN member would enter into relationship with Abkhazia that’s what is meant by recognition. So I’m left to wonder as to what is actually implied by the term “capacity”. All in all, Abkazia does not fit at least 2 out of 4 criteria, so why is it on this list again? Irakliy81 20:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Guys, that's seem to turn to a complete mess. The states are the areas recognised as states by other nations indeed. That's the rules of the international play. If one lists self-declared states, separatistic/seccecionist regions, the areas of a state captured by another state - this certainly brings one to a mess. Any rural community may declare it's an independent state, and what then, add it to a list? I understand there are mini-states like Vatican or Andorra, but their existence is coined by the surrounding nations and history, and their existence does not contradict with the regional interest balance. Please, please - if you wish to list somewhere in Wikipedia the areas like "Pridnestove", "N Cyprus Republic", or "South Ossetia", or "Bask Country", create something like a section "dispute and conflict areas of the World". Otherwise the entire idea of Wikipedia is down - 85.117.33.35 21:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC) Ridibo 21:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I would agree with the opinion presented above. Abkhazia and South Ossetia (by the way where is the country North Ossetia?) should not be on the list. Formally they are under georgian jurisdiction. De facto they are under Russian military protectorate. They themselves have many times pronounced the wish to be reattached to Russia and have all acquired Russian citizenship.
Generally I think Wikipedia should avoid such controversial issues. Any articulated position could potential seriouzly damage its reputation as an independent and objective source of information. Clearly having those territories on the list of independent states is an articulated position.
22:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)~
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are NOT the states but two provinces of Georgia occupied by Russian imperialists in 1992-93. In Abkhazia Russians even performed ethnic cleansing in 1993 removing or murdering 80 per-cent of its population.
Putting these two provinces as "states" is twisting the truth and supporting racism and aggression. Please check this for more information: http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/abkhazia.htm
Hello All! I found I am not alone who can not see any reason in including Abkhazia and South Ossetia in the 'List_of_sovereign_states'. These two phenomenons are anything, but 'sovereign states'; to describe them as states is a very doubtful thing by itself.
Since everyone agrees with no exceptions that de jure Abkhazia and South are parts of Georgia, I would like to concentrate the conversation on the phrase 'de facto'.
First of all both of these territories (actually - very important - only parts of them) 'de facto', or I would say 'in reality', are occupied territories.
About 65-70% of Abkhazia region is militarily occupied by Russian forces � I am not talking about troops formally described as 'peace keeping' � there other groups of the Russian armed forces, which are in every strategic point of the occupied 65-70%. About 10-20 % of the territory remains under Georgian control. The rest of Abkhazia is a zone of fighting for control.
From 70% to 85% of the population is driven from their homes under various pretexts. The remaining part had been made Russian citizens. They vote in the Russian elections � they are (at least were, up to the most recent times) assigned to the Kolomensky voting district. They receive salaries and pensions from the Russian Federation.
The individuals which are sometimes described as 'local authorities' or 'officials de facto' are all Russian citizens � their families live in Russia (mostly in Moscow), they live themselves much of the time in Russia too, some visit Abkhazia only once a year at the most. The individuals which are sometimes described as �local military authorities and such� are all Russian citizens too and are officially in the Russian military service � even if it is said, they are in 'organized reseve' or something like this.
And very important � all 'local authorities' always insist that they are de facto a part of the Russian Federation and want to become a part of the Russian Federation de jure.
The official currency is the Russian rouble, all 'local authorities' always insist that they are not going to create their own financial system.
The similar situation is with the so-called South Ossetia � only in this case most of the territory is under Georgian control.
How can one describe militarily occupied territories as sovereign states � you could list then some Reichskommissariat Ostland in your 'List_of_sovereign_states'!? Especially if the territories are not only occupied, but also their 'authorities' insist that they are de facto a part of some real sovereign state and want to become a part of this state de jure etc etc etc. It is even very hard to call them 'separatists' , if possible at all.
So as a resume: it does not make any sense to list some militarily occupied patches of some territories, which claim that they are de facto a part of the occupying state - in the 'List_of_sovereign_states'.
If it does make sense for someone, I think it is should be considered then to include Reichskommissariat Ostland in 'List_of_sovereign_states' too � it has not much less 'rights', than Abkhazia or 'South Ossetia'.
But still I hope the common - I would say sound - sense is going to prevail. And responsibility!
The last presidential elections are not a good example to show that Russia controls Abkhazia. Russia supported the incumbant prime minister. Guess what, the oposition candidate won. You site that all Abkhazians have Russian passports. Sure they have, since they are isolated internationally they can't use Abkhazian documents to move around. You claim that these states' only goal is to eventually join Russia. This may be true for South-Ossetia, but the fact that this is a goal shows that it's not the current situation. Also, Abkhazia has only aspired 'association', while remaining independant, my guess is this would be that this would be something like San Marino, Vatican City, Monaco visa vi Italy and France. Sure, Abkhazia would be dependant on Russia, but so is the Vatican and so is San Marino. You claim that it would be an outrage to see Abkhazia side by side with the US, but isn;t it also really strange to see the Vatican in one list with the US? Is the Vatican really independant, de facto? Thing is, states are not the same and this is an interdependant world we live in, no country can survive on its own. So that's not relevant. What's relevant is that Georgia has no de facto control over these territories, their respective governments have, and whatever Russia's policy, it does not claim to rule these territories, therefore they are de facto independant, as much as Afghanistan is currently independant. And Abkhazia is not just like andy john doe or Shan secessionist group declaring independance, it is the direct continuation of a state that was previously part of the Soviet Union, it has got institutional continuity.
You are saying "it [Georgia] does not claim to rule these territories, therefore they are de facto independant". First of all, yes georgia does not claim to rule these territories � but, a) Geogia�s does not have control only over a part of the mentioned territories and what is more important "georgia does not claim to rule these territories" does not mean the territory rules itself. And if, even not being ruled by Georgia, ruled by Russia � it means it (Ablhazia) is not a "sovereign state".
"Russia supported the incumbant prime minister. Guess what, the oposition candidate won."
Oh, really!? In reality there are several groups in Russia who fight for property in Russia and in so-called unrecognized states. One group supported one "candidate" and the other � the one who "won". So the "elections" are an example of exactly contrary situation that you related us. Both the the Russia General Prosecutor�s mate Kolesnikov and the Russian parliament vice-speaker Baburin are Russian authorities. The fact that "Baburin�s" candidate won over Kolesnikov�s candidate does not say Abkhazia is a sovereign state.
"it is the direct continuation of a state that was previously part of the Soviet Union"
- It was a part of Soviet Georgia, which indeed was a part of USSR (since 1936 � since 1922 to 1936 it was a part of Transcaucasus Soviet Federate Socialistic Republic, which was a part of USSR). And it is not a question who was who and what was what - the question is which territory has "features" that are sufficient and relevant enough to present any grounds for naming it a "sovereign state".
There are no grounds to describe Abkhazia as "sovereign state" or even a secessionist territory. I asked everyone about Reichskommissariat Ostland or asking now Reichskommissariat Ukraine (temporary names Natzies gave to some occupied parts of USSR) - what are the differences between them and nowadays Abkhazia?
Or it would be interesting to hear your definition of "sovereign state".
That's your POV - it's not our job to interpret the Mindevideo Convention. That's for international (and sometimed national) courts and tribunals. We present the facts (that their statehood is disputed) and let the reader make up his own mind - see WP:NPOV. This list includes unrecognised states as per footnote 1 and until a consensus is formed stating otherwise, that is the way it is going to stay. BTW you've been reported for suspected sockpuppetry, block evasion and general abuse of editing privileges. -- Latinus 08:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Latinus, personally I find it a best solution to make a separate list of "unrecognized countries" with the separatist regions included, and to post a link to that list on the main page. Pirveli 13:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it too (alongside with Pirveli) that the best way is to create a separate list of "unrecognized countries" or something like this with probably subdivisions: "unrecognized countries proper" and "entities propagandized as states or states like structures" - for both modern ones: like Abkhazia and Northern Cyprus; and for those from the past: like South Lebanon and Reichskommissariat Ostland with Reichskommissariat Ukraine. Otherwise wikipedia.org is going to become an advertising board of machtpolitik and aggression propaganda.
Khoikhoi, why are you reverting the article again without explaining your changes on the talk page? And what vote are you talking about? Irakliy81 00:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
My arguments in this are quite simple:
Neither Abkhazia nor South Ossetia should be in this list simply because they don’t fit the criteria defined in the beginning of the article.
For Abhazia:
<from decwindows>"The Abkhaz run their own government" - what is by you to run? Reichskommissariat Ostland had numerous officials - but who created them, what did it matter that Minsk fo example has an "elected" mayor? The most impotant question: "Who actually controlled the territory?" - the answer is clear. Would you say the people of Reichskommissariat Ostland ran their own government? "You think that the "legitimate government" is Georgia, which it isn't." - The thing is it is legitimate - if it is really interesting for you, ask the UN or the Foreign Ministry of any real sovereign state of the real, not imaginary, world". <from decwindows>
<from decwindows>"Northern Cyprus is as dependent as Abkhazia, but it's still on the list." - so you are not as ignorant as you pretend. If you consider Northern Cyprus "a de facto independent state" - then actually one just must stop argueing and just weep or laugh. Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia etc should not be called "a de facto independent states" "Despite Abkhazia's help from Russia, you cannot deny that Abkhazia is a de facto independent country, right?" - is this you argument!? You just "cannot deny that"!? Well I can - I and presented points why (see above). "This is what almost every source says" - Do your sourses say Northern Cyprus is "a de facto independent state" and Reichskommissariat Ukraine was "a de facto independent state"? <from decwindows>
<from decwindows>"it is still not part of Russia" - well more "yes", than "no" - but still it does not mean it is a "de facto independent" state. It is a part of Georgia occupied by Russia. "It's current status is a de facto independent country - that's a fact" - hardly it is more, than just your personal POV. Facts (see above) tell something completely different. <from decwindows>
For South Ossetia:
I hope you will be able to counter every one of my arguments with solid arguments of your own. Until then I will restore the previous state of the article. Irakliy81 01:21, 28 February 2006 (UTC) Test AvtoK 03:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Here are some facts about Abkhazia and South Ossetia. About 60% of population of the Abkhazia was driven away from their homes. There is a heavy Russian military presence in the region. So-called NIS peacekeepers consisting 100% of Russians and military base in bombora near the town Gudauta (this base is supposed to be closed before 2002 in accordance of 1999 Istanbul agreement, but remains functional). Russia gave to the remaining part of population Russian citizenship. They receive their wages from Russia and fiscal policy under Russian control. Georgia still controls 15% of the territory. Same situation with South Ossetia. Difference is that Georgia controls most of its territory. In so called South Ossetian government most positions are filled by Russian military officers and they not even bother themselves to be formally discharged from Russian governmental institutions. Therefore, as I see some of you people not interested what’s is going on in Abkhazia and South Ossetia (in case of Abkhazia ethnic cleansing, atrocities and apartheid of remaining Georgian population) as far as they meet formal criteria of sovereign states. However, as you can see they do not. These are Georgian territories occupied by Russians and only criteria they meet are “Puppet States’.
AvtoK
03:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The debate over whether these border cases qualify as states can go on forever without reaching consensus. Since some people consider them to be states and others do not, either simply including or simply excluding them is not npov. I propose that we should improve the footnotes instead: if they are to be included here, we should have a few sentences long footnote for each "de facto state" explaining how they both do and do not meet the criteria. -- Jiang 05:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
What do you think?( PaC 05:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :beginning>
There IS a sizeable fraction believing that neither Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus can be described as "de facto independent states" and "states" at all. Not just believing, but giving facts, information, which show Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus are just facades for Russian and Turkish military occupation - as was South Lebanon a facade for Israel occupation of Lebanon�s territory and as were local "authorities" in Reichskommissariat Ostland just a façade for Nazi German occupation of USSR territory. I would say more � most of people in this discussion see no reason in including Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus in "de facto independent states" category or list - just look at the postings.
On the other hand I do not think it is reasonable to make a decision (when we talk of an encyclopaedia and information which may give someone the idea what is really going on) - speaking in terms like "sizeable fraction" or "voting" - if there will be a sizeable fraction believing H2SO4 is a metal � will you put H2SO4 in metals list or if majority will vote for the same? I hope you will not.
So I would like to propose to make it, for example, in a kind of "mechanic" way - there is a table of "features" which "lets" a territory to be called a state ("de facto independent state", for example) - you fill the table cells with data, then count the result. If you do not think there is a widely accepted (or accepted by common sense) table of "features" - there are certainly existing moments which clearly show what is what - if there is no more or less stable territory, almost no permanent population, a territory is militarily occupied by an army of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring � does not matter) state, whole economical, political, security etc situation controlled by the army and special services of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring - does not matter) state - then where is this "de facto independent state". Declarations of some very limited in numbers individuals are not arguments. You can make an experiment - declare with your friends independence of your neighbourhood sports yard - then think how does it look like for a neutral observer (I am not talking about an interested one!). Of course situation in conflict zones is no fun - but still.
"De facto independent state" is a state which is not internationally recognized, the problem of Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus is not just that they are unrecognized - they are occupied territories where the occupying force found it convenient to have a facade for the occupation which can give it (the force) more legitimacy - it is not new in human history.
My proposal - there has to be a special list for territories like Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus and the like. There can be no compromise on including them into "de facto independent states" list - to make a compromise on this means to make a political statement or take a politically motivated position, not a scientific description or classification. I need about a week to collect opinions and proposals on how to call this list - the name should be politically neutral, descriptive and correct (not in terms of political declarations, but in terms of what is really going on).
What do you think?
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :end>
<from decwindows: beginning>
< Both Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" do not fit the category or phrase "de facto independent state">
To my personal POV (summary) - if we talk of POVs so much here:
There are certain criteria which allow to call a country "an independent state" - de facto or de jure. And the lack of thereof leads to finding for its (a country) status another description.
1.Both Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" do not have defined territories - it is not just like they have no internationally recognized territories and borders. The reality is that their territories - actually zones of Russian military occupation - are sometimes shrinking, sometimes swelling - at times every day. Since there are Georgian guerilla movement (a couple of years ago the Georgian government demanded the organized guerilla groups to stop their activities - so by now there are only unorganized bunches of people operating - but still) - the zone of the Russian occupation is not stable, it is being changed. So even if someone would insist that the Russian occupation zone must inevitably be called the territory of "de facto independent state of Abkhazia" - even then it is anything, but stable, it is not permanent, it is literally, practically undefined - no one can say it starts here and ends there, because tomorrow there will be a military operation which will change the way the situation was yesterday and on the day after tomorrow other operation will change it in the opposite way - the reality is like this since 1993. Practically no big or medium size military operations, which could be of interest for major media agencies, but "small" fighting everyday. Both of these zones of Russian occupation are mostly not contiguous. "South Ossetia", for example, is a virtual chessboard - zone of the Georgian control and zone of the Russian control are intermixed.
2.Abkhazia has almost no permanent population - it is not just from 70 to 85% of the population is displaced under various pretexts. The remaining locals are moving out everyday. And slowly, but completely new (outsiders) persons are moving in. There are two state programs in Russia both of which aim to move and settle considerable amount of people to Abkhazia. One of the program has already begun - retired army and FSB (the new name of the KGB) officers are going to receive their apartments and cottages in several places - including Abkhazia. And some of them already moved in. And that is not all - the displaced persons infiltrate whenever and wherever they can, back - then some return to the unoccupied parts of Georgia, some stay, making the zone of the Georgian control wider, some are pushed out by the Russian forces etc etc etc.
3.Similar thing is with "South Ossetia" where the situation is less outrageus in many respects though.
6. The situation in the Russia occupied zone controlled by the Russian army and FSB-KGB - some fictitious "local authorities" do exist, but, for example, when Nazi Germany occupied western part of the USSR, the occupation zone had been divided into several entities - one of them was Reichskommissariat Ostland. Some "local authorities" existed there too, even "elections" were held - but should one explain who actually controlled the situation and for what reason Nazis made the step and created these "local authorities"?
One can say more than said above. But what is told by far is enough to be more reasonable - neither Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia" are not "de facto independent states", they can not be described in terms state, statehood at all. These are occupied territories as existed before in human history and unfortunately exists now. "Their" "claims for independence" exist only when someone of those who has been let to talk speaks to Western journalists. You should watch Russian TV channels news programs in Russia (in Russian) - and there would not have been long discussions here in wikipedia.org. Maybe for someone it is romantic - tiny ethnic group fighting for independence and he (or she) can not help it but to have his (her) consciousness manipulated by those who propel these moods minding their own interests. But I call on you to be reasonable and responsible - this is no computer game to have favours towards some characters and disgust towards the others. This is the real life - the biggest online encyclopaedia visited by millions of surfers - all speculations about the "status" of Abkhazia, Northern Cyprus etc etc etc are politics, the nature of any encyclopaedia supposes to try to be academic, concentrating on facts not on declarations and favours.
<Both Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" do not fit the category or phrase "de facto independent state">
<from decwindows: end>
In my opinionthe question is simple, if the Foreign Ministry of my country does not list a particular entiry in its list of states, this is not a state. -- Bete 08:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Krauklis: Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" are NOT the states. They are Russian-occupied territories with small groups of gagngsters and terrorists acting as pro-Russian puppet "governments". Manchukuo was also prtending to be a "state" during WW2.
Jiang, I agree that all significant povs should be presented. What we seem to disagree is where in the article this should be done. I think listing the contraversial state in the "List of sovereign states" it is not netral (footnote or not). By placing them in a seperate list with the arguments about why they can or can't be considered sovereign states we represent a NPOV with all significant POVs present. I do not understand why you can't agree on that.( PaC 07:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :beginning>
There IS a sizeable fraction believing that neither Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus can be described as "de facto independent states" and "states" at all. Not just believing, but giving facts, information, which show Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus are just facades for Russian and Turkish military occupation - as was South Lebanon a facade for Israel occupation of Lebanon�s territory and as were local "authorities" in Reichskommissariat Ostland just a façade for Nazi German occupation of USSR territory. I would say more � most of people in this discussion see no reason in including Abkhazia, nor "South Ossetia", nor Northern Cyprus in "de facto independent states" category or list - just look at the postings.
On the other hand I do not think it is reasonable to make a decision (when we talk of an encyclopaedia and information which may give someone the idea what is really going on) - speaking in terms like "sizeable fraction" or "voting" - if there will be a sizeable fraction believing H2SO4 is a metal � will you put H2SO4 in metals list or if majority will vote for the same? I hope you will not.
So I would like to propose to make it, for example, in a kind of "mechanic" way - there is a table of "features" which "lets" a territory to be called a state ("de facto independent state", for example) - you fill the table cells with data, then count the result. If you do not think there is a widely accepted (or accepted by common sense) table of "features" - there are certainly existing moments which clearly show what is what - if there is no more or less stable territory, almost no permanent population, a territory is militarily occupied by an army of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring � does not matter) state, whole economical, political, security etc situation controlled by the army and special services of some neighbouring (or not neighbouring - does not matter) state - then where is this "de facto independent state". Declarations of some very limited in numbers individuals are not arguments. You can make an experiment - declare with your friends independence of your neighbourhood sports yard - then think how does it look like for a neutral observer (I am not talking about an interested one!). Of course situation in conflict zones is no fun - but still.
"De facto independent state" is a state which is not internationally recognized, the problem of Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus is not just that they are unrecognized - they are occupied territories where the occupying force found it convenient to have a facade for the occupation which can give it (the force) more legitimacy - it is not new in human history.
My proposal - there has to be a special list for territories like Abkhazia, "South Ossetia", Northern Cyprus and the like. There can be no compromise on including them into "de facto independent states" list - to make a compromise on this means to make a political statement or take a politically motivated position, not a scientific description or classification. I need about a week to collect opinions and proposals on how to call this list - the name should be politically neutral, descriptive and correct (not in terms of political declarations, but in terms of what is really going on).
What do you think?
<decwindows for Jiang and PaC :end>
I am renaming this topic Separate list for disputed territories ( PaC 10:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Would the two territory be qualified to be included for fulfilling the definition of sovereign state to a certain degree? According to a map from the UN Decolonisation Committee (courtesy User:QuartierLatin1968 for providing the link at talk:list of countries by area ) the two are even eligible for UN memberships, comparable, to some extent, the case of Switzerland before 2000. — Insta ntnood 18:15, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Although it is self-governing, it is in free association with New Zealand. This means that the sovereign in right of New Zealand is also the head of state of Niue, and most diplomatic relations are conducted by New Zealand on Niue's behalf.
I we continue that line of thought, in what respect are the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man not souvereign? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 ( talk • contribs) 13:45, February 25, 2006 (UTC).
I don't get that. It seems to me that those island are merely in a personel union with the UK, with the UK taking care of foreign relations. So what's the difference?
I've never heard of Niue and the Cook Islands being considered sovereign before. They are, it would seem, closer to being sovereign than any other non-sovereign entity, but they are certainly not fully sovereign, since another state conducts their foreign relations (on the other hand, see Andorra and Monaco, which are also arguably not fully sovereign). The most analogous situation, I think, would be to the Dominions before the Statute of Westminster - they have many attributes of sovereign states, but are ultimately in a dependent relationship. It might also be noted that UN membership does not necessarily track with sovereignty - India was a member from 1945 (and had been a member of the League of Nations, as well). john k 19:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
It's interesting to note that the Cook Islands constitution actually says that the Cook Islands Parliament is sovereign:
So the Cook Islands has —(a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states — and it is legally sovereign according to its constitution. So why is it not on this list?
Ben Arnold 00:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't have relations with other states. Currently, Cook Islands law allows New Zealand to conduct its foreign relations for it. So it might be argued that it doesn't have the capacity to enter into relations with other states. john k 00:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade claims that the Cook Island does have diplomatic relations with other states in its own name[www.mfat.govt.nz/foreign/regions/pacific/country/cookislandspaper.html] [1]. New Zealand is not empowered to unilaterally enter into diplomatic relations on behalf of the Cook Islands. Ben Arnold 04:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, in that case, we can note that the Montevideo Convention is not universally recognized as a judge of who is a sovereign state and who is not. In generaly, the Cook Islands and Niue are not listed as sovereign states. Although, in some ways, their status is analogous to that of the Marshall Islands or Palau (iirc), those former are treated as sovereign states, while the Cook Islands and Niue aren't. I do think that some mention of them ought to be made here, but perhaps not in the main list. john k 05:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"you will see that this list includes de facto states. The question here is whether Abkhazia and South Ossetia are de facto states, and the answer is yes, so they can be included".
But they are not de facto states! They are occupied territories with administration appointed from Russia and among Russian citizens. They are precisely de facto occupied territories! So they should not be included.
23:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)~
They are de facto independent. Case closed. — Nightst a llion (?) 18:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Nightstallion, A LOT OF arguments and FACTS have been brought confirming Abkhazia and South Ossetia not being even de facto independent.It seems you don't even bother to read what other people say. Pirveli 20:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Nightstallion, you clearly do not understand the concept of well argumented debate and proof. Let me venture a guess: a not-math-related major. “I am tired of this” - is not an argument. “They are de facto independent. Case closed " - is not a proof.
First of, why do even bring up de facto as an argument. The article has a clear definition with four parts. This means that you should start from this definition if you want to prove anything. Or you should argue that a different definition should be used. The fact that the first sentence is using the words de facto only means that this sentence is misleading and should be brought in compliance with the definition.
Second of all, why do you even insist that they are de facto independent? People here brought forth plenty of arguments to support the opposite (even though they did not have to do this, see my first point), and you still stubbornly refuse to give, without any valid arguments except for “I am tired of this...”
Where do you get your definition of de facto anyways? Let's look at what Wikipedia has to say about de facto independence, shall we? Look under Politics[ [2]], last paragraph: “a nation with de facto independence is one that is not recognized by other nations or by international bodies, even though it has its own government that exercises ABSOLUTE control over its claimed territory.”
It's been shown here beyond any reasonable doubt that none of these entities have governments that “exercise absolute control over their claimed territories”. Well, it turns out that even your attempt to hide behind “de facto” clause fails miserably. What do you have to say now besides “I am tired”? Silently revert it again? ( PaC 22:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
<from decwindows>My arguments for that (you could see full text above in the "Removal of Abkhazia and South Ossetia" "article")
Abkhazia has almost no permanent population - it is not just from 70 to 85% of the population is displaced under various pretexts. The remaining locals are moving out everyday. And slowly, but completely new (outsiders) persons are moving in. There are two state programs in Russia both of which aim to move and settle considerable amount of people to Abkhazia. One of the program has already begun - retired army and FSB (the new name of the KGB) officers are going to receive their apartments and cottages in several places - including Abkhazia. And some of them already moved in. And that is not all - the displaced persons (Georgian refugee) infiltrate whenever and wherever they can, back - then some return to the unoccupied parts of Georgia, some stay, making the zone of the Georgian control wider, some are pushed out by the Russian forces etc etc etc.
And Reichskommissariat Ostland had certain population too � only not everyone was "over" sure he (or she) is not going to get into a concentration camp and die there or if he (or she) is not going to be just mudered on the street for belonging to a "wrong" ethnic group or for being "suspicious". And many were mudered, many would ran away to the unoccupied territories of the USSR, many would ran back - seeing no warm welcoming there; many ran to the forests to guerilla groups etc etc etc.
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
It is not only "Abkhazia" and "South Ossetia" do not control all "their" territories - all, completely all "their" territories are controlled either by (mostly) the Russian army and or by Georgia - and there are zones of fighting for control between Russia and Georgia. "South Ossetia" is a real chessboard of zones of Russian-Georgian control.
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
There were"local authorities" and even "elections" in Reichskommissariat Ostland on occupied by Nazis USSR territory - so what? And now similar thing is in Northern Cyprus, "Abkhazia" and "South Ossetia" too � so what?
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
Russian president regularily meets mayor of Moscow (capital of Russia) - and? Hitler had met some of "authorities" from Reichskommissariat Ostland - and? And listing Northern Cyprus as "de facto independent state" is objected as much as listing there "Abkhazia", "South Ossetia", South Lebanon (in section "de facto independent states" of the past), Reichskommissariat Ukraine (in section "de facto independent states" of the past).
<from decwindows>
<from decwindows>
[Please see my previous arguments - in the "Removal of Abkhazia and South Ossetia" article]
<from decwindows>
Trying to cut a potentially enervatingly long discussion short: Maybe we could arrive at a rather simple compromise. I do not contest that the status of A&SO as de facto independent states is not as strong as the one of Somaliland (the only de facto independent state not originally occupied by another state's army). Since, however, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh and Northern Cyprus are commonly referred to as de facto independent states in media and scientific texts (despite the fact that they could be argued not to have control over their territory, but instead being occupied by another state's army), we could simply make our notes for them read "commonly considered de facto independent" and "claim contested", or something along those lines. What do you say to that? — Nightst a llion (?) 12:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Such notes are a good idea, however these regions should be listed separately from the sovereign states. We can just make 3 sections (just like it is in the flags and coat of arms' lists) - 1.sovereign states; 2.unrecognized states; 3.dependant territories. We already have all of them together in the List of countries. So, it's no need to mix these categories once more in the other lists. Including this one. Pirveli 15:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I don’t like the idea of mentioning Abkhazia or South Ossetia as a sovereign states (I am not knowledgeable enough to make similar statements for Northern Cyprus and the likes). I have presented numerous arguments for why they are not sovereign and I believe putting them in the same list with indisputably sovereign countries is promoting certain political agenda (in this case Russian political agenda). Just to reiterate, my main argument is that a sovereign entity can be politically dependent on another sovereign entity. Not only Abkhazia and South Ossetia are under complete political control of Russia, but they simply can not exist without Russian support. That is if Russia were to disappear tomorrow, both Abkhazia and South Ossetia would collapse. I truly don’t see how entities that cannot exits by themselves are sovereign. I understand, however, that due to Russian propaganda these entities have been presented to the rest of the world as “sovereign”, and as it has been said, they are referred in many places as “de facto” independent countries. Now, there are several solutions I can see:
Also, until the dispute is resolved is it possible to “hide” the article so we don’t have to revert it 20 times a day? As there is still no consensus I see the current state of the article as endorsing Russian POV. If it was hidden we could continue the discussion peacefully until the matter is resolved and only then “unhide” it. Irakliy81 01:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Abkhazia is not soveren state!
. . .
<decwindows: my poposal - beginning>
I do not think Abkhazia and "South Ossetia" are states at all, they, as "states" or "not-states", exist only "on TV" - only in mass media and (partly) in politics sphere. In reality, the regions which are claimed to be the places of their existence are territories partly militarily occupied by Russia, partly remain under Georgian control. But the idea of their existence is used by Russia as an "excuse", a facade for occupation. They are NOT "de facto independent states", they are NOT "unrecognized states" - just occupied territories. My arguments may be read above on the page.
So I believe they should not be in a list, containing word "states".
I believe they undoubtedly must be listed somewhere - I am not insisting they should be in a list called "occupied territories". It is a fair description, but may be considered to be emotional or politically motivated - it is like when one sees a perspired person to point out and to say "this one is perspired" - it is not something anyone would expect - even if it is technically correct.
I propose to make a starting list "States and territories" or "List of states and territories"
With subdivisions:
1. "Sovereign states" or just "Independent states" 2. "Territories with disputed status"
All separatist territories or considered by some to be separatist territories meet perfectly well number 2 position. "Territories with disputed status" - that is what they are: (half-joke) - I believe they are "occupied territories", Nightstallion believes they are "de facto independent states". Word "territory" is much more neutral. Both a "de facto independent state" and an "occupied territory" are territories. So if one insists they are "de facto independent states" and the other they are "occupied territory" - both of the persons can not deny that they or "they" are a part of the planet Earth - territories.
The word "territory" is much neutral politically - if you call some entity "state" - makes little difference a "de facto independent state" or just an "independent state" - you TAKE a POLITICAL (or politically motivated) position.
Listing phenomena like Abkhazia, "South Ossetia" or Northern Cyprus in "Territories with disputed status" and giving in the article all POVs you let the wikipedia.org visitor to decide for himself (or herself) how to describe them "states" or whatever.
<decwindows: my poposal - end>
I like decwindows’ idea better if the division would be sovereign states and territories with disputed status I would support it 100% Irakliy81 04:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. State is synonym of sovereign state. Diplomatic recognition is among the criteria that must be fulfilled to be considered a sovereign state. We already have a separate list for self-proclaimed sovereign states with little or no diplomatic recognition. —
Insta
ntnood
15:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't oppose the move (careful with capitalization though), but I see problems in the split sections. What is "States with disputed sovereignty" supposed to mean? Who is disputing the sovereignty? Can I declare myself world dictator and dispute the sovereignty of every single state in the world? It cannot be npov without clear criteria, and it must be ensured that this criteria is clearly followed. -- Jiang 17:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Oppose By creating different categories/levels, we get into the fragmented mess of having endless discussion of where to place a so-and-so entity to one of those categories. We run into the danger of circumstantial POV accusations or supporting a hidden agenda (even if we do not intend to do so) when we place an entity into a certain section. Some people will get headaches when they realize that they have to go to another section to search for a so-and-so entity. And then in the future there will be new wikipedia users who might see all of this mess and enter into another round of revert wars. I agree that the current list is controversial, but I think that things will become even more controversial if we suddently create different classes of states. I really think footnotes and introductory notes are sufficient and accessable and say enough. If that's not enough for you, we could place additionally notes next to the entity of interest while keeping the alphabetical order of the state listing. We don't have to overdo things; we should keep things simple. If Wikipedia had a truly cross-reference database to help people find a certain entity among the so-called proposed different categories of states, perhaps I would be less opposed. Allentchang 00:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's try to approach this from a different direction.
( PaC 02:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
Let's see where we stand on this. I hope this approach does not annoy anybody. I personally find that it works well. Again, do not think of this as a final vote of some sort. Just a pre-screening of our positions. If we all agree we can proceed further if not we'll discuss it some more. ( PaC 02:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
...
...
...
====Do you agree to change the criteria for inclusion in the list from Montevideo Convention's to smth like “Recognized by at least several UN member states”?==== If not please suggest an alternative (or say Montevideo criteria).
...
...
To keep it clean, let's place our comments on Proposal II (criteria) here, so that the others can follow our train of thought ( PaC 02:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
I would like to change the definition to "a sovereign state must have diplomatic relations with more than one other sovereign state." Irakliy81 02:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Jiang, just out of curiosity, since you don’t think Montevideo Convention is ambiguous, would you explain what exactly is meant by “government” (criterion c) and “capacity” to enter into relations with the other states (criterion d). I understand that if an entity has a “government” it has the “capacity” to enter into diplomatic relations with other states, whether it utilizes this capacity or not. Example: California has a government, there is nothing preventing a Governor of California from entering into diplomatic relations with Mexico. I am not saying that such a move would be beneficial for California, nor that Mexico would want to do that, I’m just saying that “capacity” is there. Yet, we all know that California is not a “sovereign state” (even though it could easily exist without the rest of the United States), so either I am misunderstanding these two definitions or they are ambiguous. Irakliy81 08:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Allentchang, a non-scientist person, which you are caring about will be confused and misinformed, if the encyclopedia article tells him, that separatist regions have the same status as the sovereign states. Also, many non-scientist persons won't pay attention to the notes. Thus, the uncontrolled reigions, like Waziristan, Karen, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Tamil Eelam, etc should be listed separately from France, Hungary or Brazil. Othervise, a great number of non-scientist users, who you seem to care about are being misinformed. Pirveli 17:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Just some rough idea.. would it be possible to create a list of sovereign states by diplomatic recognition (i.e. by number of sovereign states with official, but not de facto, diplomatic relations), and/or a list of sovereign states by recognition/acknowledgement of existence. Using North Korea as an example, which does not have diplomatic relations with the United States, but its existence is acknowledged/recognised by the United States, the United States will not be counted in North Korea's figure in the former, and will be counted in the latter. —
Insta
ntnood
20:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to note, there clearly are barriers to California entering into diplomatic relations with Mexico - notably the United States Constitution:
Seems pretty clear to me that California, along with most other subnational entities, does not meet the Montevideo criteria for the last point. Which isn't to say that the point is unambiguous - I think it's quite ambiguous. What do we make of the constituent states of the German Empire - they all had defined territory, a permanent population, a government, and actually had diplomatic relations with other states. The kingdoms (Bavaria, Saxony, and Württemberg) actually had foreign ministers and maintained diplomatic relations with various states - not only other German states, but, iirc, with other European countries, notably Austria. I also seem to remember that Hesse-Darmstadt, due to long-standing family ties to the Russian Imperial House, kept an ambassador in St. Petersburg. So, the German states would seem, in fact, to be sovereign states under the Montevideo doctrine. Another weird case: the heretofore discussed Cook Islands and Niue. The foreign relations of these countries are under the control of New Zealand. However, the governments of these places have the right to take over control of their own foreign affairs and enter into relations with other states if they want to. Except that they don't. And, furthermore, I think it would actually require some affirmative steps for them to actually be able to do so - they'd have to amend their constitution to remove the management of foreign affairs from the New Zealand government. So it's quite arguable that the Cook Islands both have, and do not have, the ability to enter into relations with other states. What about the British Dominions before 1931? They were members of the League of Nations. Canada had foreign ministers from 1909, Australia from 1901, South Africa from 1927, and the Irish Free State from 1922. And they certainly meet the other three criteria. But they're normally not considered to have been fully sovereign, and their conduct of foreign relations was fairly limited. What about India before 1947 - it was a member of both the League and the UN, although I don't think it had diplomatic relations with any individual countries. It also clearly meets the other three criteria. But it obviously wasn't a Sovereign State - its government was almost entirely appointed by the government of a foreign country. But yet, it seems arguable that it meets the "ability to enter into relations with other states" business, since it did, in fact, have relations with other states through the League and the UN.
The defined territory requirement seems likewise to be ambiguous. Does Israel have a defined territory? It seems arguable that it doesn't. Western Sahara has a claimed territory, but it doesn't control most of it. Does that fit the definition? What about the Palestinians? Both Western Sahara and Palestine are recognized by many countries as sovereign, but I would argue that neither, and especially not the Palestinians, has a defined territory. john k 21:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Allentchang, you say that you do not think that Montevideo criteria are vague when answering the question above, and yet you go on and on explaining how good the vagueness provided by these criteria is. Make up your mind. Is it vague or not? ( PaC 00:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
John K has a good point that when there are several different methods each of them is a POV. However, "recognition by states" criterion is no less neutral then Montevideo criteria, and by far less ambiguous. As to where to make a cut-off, i.e. how many states should recognize the state to be included in the list, I think the word "several" is a good choice. It emphasizes the significance of recognition - it's definitely more then one. It also has some vagueness to it, that is so dear to Allentchang, yet at current state of affairs this vagueness is not an issue. ( PaC 00:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
Can other editors who participated in this discussion also share their thoughts about this proposal with us? Sorry for "shouting" ( PaC 15:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
How many states does one need to recognise a lightbulb?
How about a table with a range of different possible criteria for souvereignity? Each state would get ticks in the colomns of the criteria that they match. Criteria could be:
- recognition by UN
- recognition by at least one UN member [this would rule in Taiwan, Northern Turkey, West-Sahara, Palestina]
- claims to be independant [this would rule out Taiwan, Palestina, Kosova, Tamil Elam, etc.]
- de facto independance from any other state that claims souvereignity over its teritory [note that this would rule in A, SO, NK, NC regardless of independance from Russia/Armenia/Turkey plus all other entries]
We could then restrict inclusion to teritories that behave independantly from any other teritory that disputes the first teritory's independance. Thus we would include the de facto 6 and a few rebel movements such as Tamil Elam, but exclude teritories with home rule such as the Faroer or sub-national entities such as California. We would have one list, but countries with an incomplete series of 'ticks' would stand out. Alternatively, we could have different sections for all the different possible sets of ticks, even though that would impede clarity. Footnotes could explain how or why some country does not fit some definition and give additional information such as Somalia's total lack of state control, or Israel's not being recognised by some Arabian countries.
Thoughts? [sephia karta]
The point is that it does according to some definitions that approximate "might makes right". [sephia karta]
On the first question: De facto independent states does not cover a number of important issues. In many (but not all) cases for instance, the territory they claim belongs to another state, and that fact is recognised as such by all or most members of the international community of states that recognise each others territorial integrity. So these places have no place in the communion of states based on that. Recognition of territorial integrity by others is a defining factor.
On the second question: It is definitely NPOV. Recognition is either extended to a state or not. It can be unclear as to how many recognitions it takes. In practice that will only question the status of Taiwan ROC at this moment. But incidently both ROC and PROC claim the same territory and no state recognises both, therefore this is not about the recognition of a state but of which government of said state (i.c. China)
On the third question: Something like that, although I see no reason why they should be UN member states. Just recognised states will do. I would have no problem with a number like ten or twenty.
On the fourth question: Yes, a seperate list of unrecognised countries would be fine. Gerard von Hebel 20:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Judging from the votes above it is clear that at least half the people find Montevideo Convention at least somewhat vague, and majority agree to include the recognition by other states as at lest part of the criteria for sovereignty. I think it would be wise to take Montevideo Convention and improve on it by defining some of the criterions more clearly. I propose to set criteria for sovereignty as follows:
Explanation: Criteria 1 and 2 are directly from Montevideo Convention. Criterion 3 is also almost a direct copy. However, a small addition will help to exclude any sub national entity.
Motivation for criterion 4: If an entity is under a complete control of another entity it can not be sovereign by definition. However, in modern world a true sovereignty is almost impossible to find. All states in one form or another depend on other states. A relative sovereignty of such states is ensured by a large number of states they depend on. If however, a state depends on one and only one other state, it is not sovereign but is rather a dependant or a satellite of that state (a “puppet state”). The quick and dirty way to determine this is through recognition. That is, if an entity is de facto recognized by at least 2 indisputably sovereign states it is sovereign itself. The motivation here is that while it is possible to be a “puppet” state of one state, it is almost impossible to be a “puppet” state of 2 or more states simultaneously.
Once we determine which states are sovereign and which are not we can also have a separate list of territories that do not meet the criteria but are commonly referred to as de facto independent. Or we can mention those territories in the introduction and provide a link to the list of de facto independent states. Also, in the introduction we can mention that the new criteria are derived from the Montevideo Convention. -- Irakliy81 18:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody volunteer to create a preliminary new version of the article along the lines that seem to have a majority support:
I am extremely busy next week and will have hard time participating in the discussion. ( PaC 00:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC))
I must disagree with solely the criterium of recognition being a measure for souvereignity. There exists the constitutive theory of statehood and the declaritive theory of statehood. According to the former, recognition is indeed vital. According to the latter, a state is determined by factors independant of recognition. Defining souvereignity as merely being recognised by several other souvereign states is biased towards the constitutive theory of statehood.
Aside from that, the definition above is still recursive and therefore unworkable.[sephia karta]
There is already a List of countries, where most of the entities are included.
There should be at least one list with the sovereign states actually. Othervise, according to the declarative theory, anyone can declare his own house to be an independent state and demand it's inclusion to all the encyclopedias.
Pirveli
19:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
<from decwindows (09.03.06): beginning>
I would like to repeat my proposal (of 2 March 2006):
<<< <<< <<< I propose to make a starting list "States and territories" or "List of states and territories"
With subdivisions:
1. "Sovereign states" or "Independent states", or just "States"
2. "Territories with disputed status" or "Territories with [whatever will be found relevant by our discussion]" or just "Territories" >>> >>> >>>
I mean - to list de jure independent states in "Sovereign states" or just "States" section. All other entities (both real and "imaginary" - those which "exist" only in mass media, and of all other possible sorts) in "Territories with disputed status". Or just "Territories" - giving the information (if it - the territory - is believed to be seeking independence or not: like Bavaria or Tirol) in the article dedicated to a territory itself.
Excuse me for just repeating my 7 day old POV, but creating a "Territories with disputed status" list or whatever with the key word "Territory" - NOT "State", will save a lot of talks and misunderstandings.
Word "State" implicates a lot. By using it ("State") you make a statement - whatever your intentions are - it is like to name a sportsman "the champion" while his (her) championship is not recognized yet (for example, because the court decision is not set yet on whether there has been an doping drug of some kind used or not). Or imagine calling a person under suspicions "a criminal" or "a convict" before the official court decision - you will very much possibly see the court yourself after being that loose about words. A "suspect" is the "worst" name used for a person "with charges". Because naming a person "a criminal" implicates the person IS a criminal - which may, by 50 % probability, have nothing to do with the reality. Having discussions whether the probability is of 80% or 10% will lead away from the really important and relevant things - investigation, court hearings etc. So before the official court decision ONLY neutral, "none-convicting" words are used.
In world politics there are several structures positioning themselves as kind of "courts", deciding how a territory status should be legally, juristically defined in terms of the international law - and wikipedia.org is not one of them. And giving an implicating, "convicting", not neutral name to an entity of the world politics is the same as calling "a murderer" a person who is only a suspect - you may argue in a million of ways that the person is a "de facto" murderer - hardly any sound person would agree with you until the investigation, the court etc are over.
So my strong position is - AVOID CALLING, LISTING ETC an entity as a "state" before it is internationally recognized as such. "Internationally" should mean by the UN or there should be given special consideration (like Switzerland has not been a UN member state for a long time; Ukraine and Byelorussia had been UN members since the UN beginning - before becoming the international law "subjects" - not "objects", before "real" independence).
Using names like "self-proclaimed sovereign states", "unrecognized countries" - is no "excuse" - it is like "self-convicted criminals", "unrecognized convicts".
So I suppose to call all conflict zones, referred to as "separatist" (positioned in some way, proclaimed to be based on any possible grounds (or lack of thereof) as entities aspiring a separate existence) "a Territory" would suit wikipedia.org best as an encyclopeadia, not a political propaganda group.
I propose to make first a most general division, to be clear about the top classification level - "[De jure] States", "not States". I propose to call "not States" - "Territories". And then to discuss the criteria for an entity (a territory) to be defined as "de facto" or "partly sovereign" or whatever.
I believe "Territory" is a neutral enough word - it is a part of the planet Earth. You can discuss if it is only a part of the planet’s surface or plus something below and to what extend "below" - still it will be a "Territory". You can discuss if it is de facto independent or not - still it is a "Territory". And a very, very implicating and controversial word "State" will be avoided in all questionable situations.
<from decwindows (09.03.06): end>
Are Native American tribes regarded as sovereign states? Especially if they have federal and/or state recognition? Asarelah 23:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that a notation should be listed in the B section
something like "Burma: see Myanmar" The US government does not recognize the name Myanmar for the country and uses the name Burma. A cross reference may prove helpful and eliminate confusion. -- Ted-m 23:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Although Montenegro had officially declared its independence on June 3, and according to the constitution the other member of the union (i.e. Serbia) would be a successor to the union, until this moment neither the parliament of the union nor the Serbian parliament has declared Serbia's succession of the union. The union still exists with one member. Would it be correct to include both Montenegro and Serbia and Montenegro (instead of Serbia) on this list, until the union officially made the name change from Serbia and Montenegro to Serbia? — Insta ntnood 09:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
As I edited the page, according to the status quo: - Montenegro IS an independent state after de facto (but not official) recognition of its independence by the European Union and the state union of Serbia and Montenegro (according to the agreement proceeding the referendum that stated that if 55%+ vote for independence, the country will be independent) - Serbia and Montenegro does exist as a country, with Serbia being its only constituent part until they declare independence too (expected to do so within the week) and become the successor state of the union. Therefore, both Montenegro and Serbia and Montenegro should be on the list for the time being. Dr. Manos 17:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
A procedure for Montenegro's independence and the dissolvement of the State Union was agreed upon long before independence actually happened. At the time Montenegro declared independence this procedure was therefore implicitly executed and the State Union ceased to exist. No country has to ask the UN permission to change its name! Gerard von Hebel 00:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Names in the first line "Federated States of Micronesia" and in English line "Federates States of Micronesia" differs. What is correct?-- 81.17.152.207 17:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The latter would appear to be a typo. john k 03:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Addition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) as a sovereign entitiy:
Kertenkelebek 12:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it fulfils the criteria - although it lacks a de facto relationship with the European Union or the USA (this is not a Taiwan case) and it does not have relations with any state without the intervention of Turkey - de facto relationship can only be argued in the case of Azerbaijan through the charter flights to the Nicosia Airport. Dr. Manos 14:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but no. Other than Turkey, every country in the world considers its territory to be part of the Republic of Cyprus. And the fact that the TRNC has an office in Washington doesn't mean that the US gives it de facto recognition - that would only work if the US had an office in North Cyprus somewhere. By your definition, the Confederacy was de facto recognized by England and France because Mason and Slidell lived in London and Paris as "ambassadors," and even met with government officials occasionally. That's not how it works. john k 15:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It's at least as sovereign as the other unrecognised states, either we have all of them or none. — Nightst a llion (?) 12:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
BionicWilliam 10:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me why the Sovereign States of the Fifty States, United are not here? For instance, California Republic, whose Constitution has never been repealed and which has a voting public (the California Jural Society. It has a flag, a Constitution, a populace, and territory. Now I'm not looking for an argument, just a definitive answer why it is not included... The United States, and its Internal Revenue System (quietly) acknowledges its citizen's claims, why not wikipedia? Pedant 02:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Becuase the California Republic no longer exists. Whether repealed or not the actual entity that controls the population and territory of California is the State of California which is subject to the Federal Govt. Can California enter into relations with say Cuba or Mexico without Federal approval ? 201.238.87.153 21:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason to keep the English Translations in the List of States section, given that the heading of each state is already written in English? Examples include The Bahamas, Dominica, India, Kenya. Suggest deletion for all redundent translations and refraining from adding more English-English translations.
Note that List of sovereign state flags also redirects here, so some people who want to look up a flag might find themselves at this article. But the flag images are so small that they are barely visible.
It would make this article a lot more useful if flag image sizes were about 3 times as big as the present size. It would make looking up flags a lot easier for people who saw a flag somewhere but don't know which country does it belong to. After all this is the purpose of Wikipedia as an encylopedia: to make it possible to easily look up things.
There is a gallery of sovereign state flags. When we had an independent list of sovereign state flags (which was originally list of national flags), just like here there was no end of arguments over what to include. It was better to keep the lists and arguments syncronised in one article, rather than trying to build the same consensus twice. If a person is looking for a larger image then they can always click on the link of the one they wish to see. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
In the article first it is claimed that states that satisfy the Montevideo criteria are listed, including those that lack international recognition. Further down however, all such states are taken apart and are not included in the main list, except for Taiwan, seemingly merely due to greater "popularity". Additionally, Somalia which hardly satisfies the Montevideo criteria is included in the list. This, people, is a joke. No matter what the text claims, this is not a list of states satisfying the Montevideo criteria. I suggest that the list be either adapted to fit the Montevideo criteria, or that reference to these be removed and the page be renamed to "List of Internationally Recognised states". Or better, we do both and have two lists. Sephia karta 19:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The reason ROC is included it is a recgonized enity by many states. All of the ones you added are unrecognize by any countries BionicWilliam 00:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Listing these various dubious entities whose "independence" is entirely maintained by foreign armies seems highly problematic to me, and suggests POV pushing. Would we have included Bophuthatswana and Ciskei, as well? john k 16:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
This is true, but necessity to control all claimed territory is highly problematic imo. It is not required by the Montevideo convention and if we were to apply it, Georgia itself would fail the list, along with Argentinia, Marrocco, Japan, China, and Taiwan would fail spectacularily. I think the problem exists that having a list of sovereign countries necessarily involves a cut-off criterium and reduces the problem to a yes/no question thus ignoring the fact that 'independance', being one's own master, is a gliding scale. Ideally we would have a ranking of sovereign countries, with possibly the US on top and South-Ossetia trailing somewhere near to the bottom, but in absence of a feasable method to rank states thusly, the best we can do is choose a criterium defined as clearly as possible that seperates the weakly independant states from the not independant states, and at the same time indicate in the text when a state only barely meets the criterium. Sephia karta 13:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
This convention was signed only by 19 countries, all in America: Honduras, United States of America, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay, Paraguay, Mexico, Panama, Guatemala, Brazil, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Colombia, Chile, Peru, Cuba. See the convention. No European country signed this convention. How can some of you consider this convention as a serious thing? Regarding current debate about secessionist territories, China, Cyprus, Moldova, Georgia didn't sign this convention.-- MariusM 17:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
At first, I thought that MariusM didn't know what he was talking about. However, he is being maliciously misleading because he knows better: See Talk:Montevideo Convention. The convention is a codification of standard practice of international law. International law applies worldwide, and the main principles of the convention are accepted by all countries except rogue states. In other words, its contents is not limited to just the signatories. With specific regards to Europe, the exact same principles are common in declarations from numerous European countries on recognition of states issues, and are shared by all. - Mauco 17:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)