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![]() | On 14 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of monarchs of Saxony. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
The page says that from 1539-1541, Henry IV, Duke of Saxony was duke of Saxony. However, looking at the German pages, that seems to be de:Heinrich V. (Sachsen) as the ruler between George, Duke of Saxony and Maurice, Elector of Saxony. Which one is correct? Kusma (討論) 21:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I can not see any reason, why the Coat of arms of Munster, Lower Saxony are show in the article - nor do I understand what kind of connection there could be between Munster and a List of rulers of Saxony. This must be a mistake...-- Zarbi1 ( talk) 10:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
this is messy and hard to read. Further more complicated that the area called Saxony kept on changing. This article has a bias towards anything called just "Saxony" This give the idea that Old Saxony and the Free State of Saxony is the same entity. Really this is more about the title "Duke of Saxony" Tinynanorobots ( talk) 23:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus( talk) 18:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
List of rulers of Saxony →
List of Dukes of Saxony –
Yeah, sorry about the bad timing. If there's a consensus against the move, we can move it back, but I'd like to see a little more input before doing more moves. There's no harm if the page is badly titled for a few days while we work out where it really should be, and then we can move it just once more, when we've decided. Does that sound alright?
I see that WikiProject Royalty and Nobility and WikiProject Germany have got banners at the top of the page. I'll go ahead and leave notes for them; are there any other places we should notify about the discussion? - GTBacchus( talk) 23:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I went ahead and reverted the move because of everyone's support of this. Also since the user who requested the move in the first place hasn't replied back. Also the list already makes it apparent in the intro that the rulers ruled different territories named Saxony and the lists has links in each sections for the territory that each ruler ruled. It might need better clarification and maybe a section discussing and listing the different Saxonys that existed.-- Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy ( talk) 21:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the pretender section since there is no need for such a section and it doesn't seem like it is a rule that all list of rulers/monarchs should have one. And the whole dynastic dispute would just be too messy to deal with later on.-- The Emperor's New Spy ( talk) 23:51, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
This article shouldn’t place the kingdom as the ultimate head of the dynasty because it co-existed with the grand duchy and duchies, which were all genealogically senior to the royal line. The head of the house of Wettin is the titular grand duke of Saxony, not either of the royal pretenders, one of which is not a Wettin at all. 2607:FEA8:C260:D0:7444:7A34:ED0A:5C8D ( talk) 14:17, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus for the move. ( non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow ( talk) 12:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
List of rulers of Saxony →
List of monarchs of Saxony – "Rulers" it too vague of a term, and should be replaced by something clearer (see
background discussion / process about "Rulers"). In most cases, "monarch" is more accurate, and dukes, electors, and kings
are all monarchs
according to
WP:COGNOMEN #5: European monarchs whose rank is below that of king (e.g., grand dukes, electors, dukes, princes)
. This list was already in
Category:Saxon monarchs. It already identified all "rulers" as "monarchs" with the
Template:Infobox former monarchy from
Hadugato in 531
to
Frederick Augustus III of Saxony on 13 November 1918
, which the opening sentence describes as the end of the German monarchies in 1918.
This is repeated several times throughout the list with the statement Monarchy abolished in 1918.
Therefore, I thought this name change would be pretty uncontroversial. But @
Srnec thought I should put it through a formal
WP:RM, so here it is. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 08:34, 14 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. –
Material
Works
11:57, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
For heads of government of Saxony since 1918, see List of Ministers-President of Saxony. For heads of state, see List of presidents of Germany.If it were "clear" that "rulers" were NOT presidents and prime ministers, there would be no need for such a statement. On the other hand, no reader would (normally) think that a List of monarchs of Saxony would include
Ministers-President of Saxony. This is my primary reason for renaming this list. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 17:41, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
ALEXANDER CHUMICHEV / REUTERS Lukashenko's gambit. The controversial Belarussian leader rules his country with an iron hand. Is his real goal the Russian presidency? Will he succeed? (...)Given that he had only been democratically elected as president in 1994, there doesn't seem to be a very high threshold before we can call someone a "ruler" who "rules".
ruleris
one that rules. specifically : SOVEREIGN. Synonyms: autocrat, monarch, potentate, sovereign, sovran.M-W defines sovereign as
one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty. Synonyms: autocrat, monarch, potentate, ruler.
ruleris
a person who rules or governs
the leader of a country. Example: The country was without a ruler after the queen died. Leaders of national & regional governments: chancellor chancellorship chief executive co-ruler collector FM generalissimo governor governorship gubernatorial premier premiership Pres. presidency state premier Taoiseach the power behind the throne idiom Tánaiste veep vice president etc.
someone who controls a country. Examples: Haiti’s former military rulers. He had more power than any ruler of Spain until Franco.
The ruler of a country is the person who rules the country. Example: ...the former military ruler of Lesotho. He was a weak-willed and indecisive ruler.
a person who rules or governs; sovereign.
someone such as a king or queen who has official power over a country or area► see thesaurus at leader
One, such as a monarch or dictator, that rules or governs.
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 14 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of monarchs of Saxony. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
The page says that from 1539-1541, Henry IV, Duke of Saxony was duke of Saxony. However, looking at the German pages, that seems to be de:Heinrich V. (Sachsen) as the ruler between George, Duke of Saxony and Maurice, Elector of Saxony. Which one is correct? Kusma (討論) 21:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I can not see any reason, why the Coat of arms of Munster, Lower Saxony are show in the article - nor do I understand what kind of connection there could be between Munster and a List of rulers of Saxony. This must be a mistake...-- Zarbi1 ( talk) 10:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
this is messy and hard to read. Further more complicated that the area called Saxony kept on changing. This article has a bias towards anything called just "Saxony" This give the idea that Old Saxony and the Free State of Saxony is the same entity. Really this is more about the title "Duke of Saxony" Tinynanorobots ( talk) 23:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus( talk) 18:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
List of rulers of Saxony →
List of Dukes of Saxony –
Yeah, sorry about the bad timing. If there's a consensus against the move, we can move it back, but I'd like to see a little more input before doing more moves. There's no harm if the page is badly titled for a few days while we work out where it really should be, and then we can move it just once more, when we've decided. Does that sound alright?
I see that WikiProject Royalty and Nobility and WikiProject Germany have got banners at the top of the page. I'll go ahead and leave notes for them; are there any other places we should notify about the discussion? - GTBacchus( talk) 23:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I went ahead and reverted the move because of everyone's support of this. Also since the user who requested the move in the first place hasn't replied back. Also the list already makes it apparent in the intro that the rulers ruled different territories named Saxony and the lists has links in each sections for the territory that each ruler ruled. It might need better clarification and maybe a section discussing and listing the different Saxonys that existed.-- Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy ( talk) 21:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the pretender section since there is no need for such a section and it doesn't seem like it is a rule that all list of rulers/monarchs should have one. And the whole dynastic dispute would just be too messy to deal with later on.-- The Emperor's New Spy ( talk) 23:51, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
This article shouldn’t place the kingdom as the ultimate head of the dynasty because it co-existed with the grand duchy and duchies, which were all genealogically senior to the royal line. The head of the house of Wettin is the titular grand duke of Saxony, not either of the royal pretenders, one of which is not a Wettin at all. 2607:FEA8:C260:D0:7444:7A34:ED0A:5C8D ( talk) 14:17, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus for the move. ( non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow ( talk) 12:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
List of rulers of Saxony →
List of monarchs of Saxony – "Rulers" it too vague of a term, and should be replaced by something clearer (see
background discussion / process about "Rulers"). In most cases, "monarch" is more accurate, and dukes, electors, and kings
are all monarchs
according to
WP:COGNOMEN #5: European monarchs whose rank is below that of king (e.g., grand dukes, electors, dukes, princes)
. This list was already in
Category:Saxon monarchs. It already identified all "rulers" as "monarchs" with the
Template:Infobox former monarchy from
Hadugato in 531
to
Frederick Augustus III of Saxony on 13 November 1918
, which the opening sentence describes as the end of the German monarchies in 1918.
This is repeated several times throughout the list with the statement Monarchy abolished in 1918.
Therefore, I thought this name change would be pretty uncontroversial. But @
Srnec thought I should put it through a formal
WP:RM, so here it is. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 08:34, 14 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. –
Material
Works
11:57, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
For heads of government of Saxony since 1918, see List of Ministers-President of Saxony. For heads of state, see List of presidents of Germany.If it were "clear" that "rulers" were NOT presidents and prime ministers, there would be no need for such a statement. On the other hand, no reader would (normally) think that a List of monarchs of Saxony would include
Ministers-President of Saxony. This is my primary reason for renaming this list. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 17:41, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
ALEXANDER CHUMICHEV / REUTERS Lukashenko's gambit. The controversial Belarussian leader rules his country with an iron hand. Is his real goal the Russian presidency? Will he succeed? (...)Given that he had only been democratically elected as president in 1994, there doesn't seem to be a very high threshold before we can call someone a "ruler" who "rules".
ruleris
one that rules. specifically : SOVEREIGN. Synonyms: autocrat, monarch, potentate, sovereign, sovran.M-W defines sovereign as
one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty. Synonyms: autocrat, monarch, potentate, ruler.
ruleris
a person who rules or governs
the leader of a country. Example: The country was without a ruler after the queen died. Leaders of national & regional governments: chancellor chancellorship chief executive co-ruler collector FM generalissimo governor governorship gubernatorial premier premiership Pres. presidency state premier Taoiseach the power behind the throne idiom Tánaiste veep vice president etc.
someone who controls a country. Examples: Haiti’s former military rulers. He had more power than any ruler of Spain until Franco.
The ruler of a country is the person who rules the country. Example: ...the former military ruler of Lesotho. He was a weak-willed and indecisive ruler.
a person who rules or governs; sovereign.
someone such as a king or queen who has official power over a country or area► see thesaurus at leader
One, such as a monarch or dictator, that rules or governs.