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The diagram should be reversed right-to-left, as the entrance to the tabernacle and temple faced to the east. I recognize that the diagram is not specifically drawn with compass directions specified, but I feel it would be better.
Unfortunately my HTML-fu is a little weak and rusty these days, or I'd do it myself. Maybe I'll come back. Jdavidb 15:21, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I believe that the Manti temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also has a Holy of Holies off the celestial room, but it is not used as such - though it is not used for another purpose either. But this is just from memory - any other thoughts out there?
This might be an overly narrow view of what the Holy of Holies is for. Yes it's where the President of the High Priesthood (and of the Church) confers with the Lord, but it is also used for the ordinance called the "second anointing," and other temples have rooms specially set aside for that purpose. Furthermore, the Celestial room today fills a role analogous to the Holy of Holies during the presentation of the Endowment. Like I said, I think the definition used here is overly narrow.
I recommend splitting the article into two and adding a Most Holy Place (Latter Day Saints) article, as there are two different places as well as different religious traditions involved. -- Shirahadasha 01:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Agree with the split in articles. Reworked wording; "a room that is believed to be a place where God dwelt"--in the past tense--is not fitting with LDS Theology or terminology.-- Rojerts 02:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Eliminated redirect and created stub for article Holy of Holies, of the Jewish Tabernacle and Temple in Jerusalem and thus a distinct article from this one on sanctuaries in various faiths. Will move details on Temple in Jerusalem to Holy of Holies and leave a summary with this article. -- Shirahadasha 21:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Edited LDS portion to reflect current Mormon thought.-- Rojerts 21:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
The Manti Temple's Holy of Holies is now being used as a sealing room.
The sentence "The Jews consider this blasphemous" was recently added - is there a reference for this - as I have not heard of this before today? Trödel| talk 12:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Traditional Judaism is irrelevant. Wikipedia is not censored and Wikipedians are most certainly not prohibited from writing a word because it offends some religious sect. Childe Roland of Gilead 10:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed a claim in the article stating that the Holy of Holies was at the "center"e. The Talmud provides very precise dimensions, Tractate Yoma, for example, provides dimensions indicating a clear Jewish tradition that while it was centered North-South, it was placed significantly to the west on the East-West axis. In light of this tradion, a claim that it was at the center not only should not be taken as fact, in the absence of a source the claim should be deleted. Note that the diagram reflects this assymetry and shows a location which is clearly well to the west of center. -- Shirahadasha 07:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This article's religious POV appears to take a position based strictly on the Hebrew Bible, which provides for the building of a tabernacle in the Wilderness. But traditional Judiasm relies on an Oral Law, the foundation of the Talmud, which contains much more detailed directions about the building of the Temple in Jerusalem. According to Orthodox Judaism, these instructions also came from God. I would suggest somewhat more careful language here. We could say things like "according to the Hebrew Bible, God said", which would then permit language like "according to the Talmud, this really meant..." -- Shirahadasha 01:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following material, all of which appears to present a (non-Jewish) WP:OR perspectives that the Ark in a Jewish synagogue is comparable to the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem. There are resemblances, but one just isn't the same as the other. No branch of Judaism would find the sort of analogy this article claims. Orthodox Judaism would say the Holy of Holies is irreplacable, while Reform Judaism would say it is no longer relevant. Sources need to be supplied to support these claims -- and I challenge anyone to find mainstream Jewish opinion that does so.
The Church of the Holy Sepulcre (supposedly the location of the crucifixion of Jesus) was stated as the Holy of Holies for all Christians, whereas this is not necessarily the case, particularly with a large portion of Christianity that does revere any one location as a "Most Holy Place." Therefore I changed the wording to "some Christians." Soonercary 18:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It looks to me as if this article has gone off the rails. "Most Holy Place" is an English rendering of the Hebrew Kodesh Hakodashim, specifying the inner chamber of the Jerusalem Temple. As a translation it may or may not be very high quality: Holy of Holies is a more literal rendering of the phrase, and at least according to a comment on Talk:Holy of Holies it carries the meaning better too.
However, what we have here are not places bearing the either the name "Most Holy Place" or "Holy of Holies", but a collection of the holiest shrines or cities in a number of different religions. This is worth an article, but if that's what it's to be it's misnamed, and neither the chamber of the Jerusalem Temple nor its Mormon meaning belong here. I therefore propose the following reorganization:
One more item: the proposed article name of "Holiest Place" still allows for confusion. In some traditions, "holiest place" might be taken as a synonym to "holy of holies." Holiest place lends a superlative air to it that represents the original idiom.
Instead, how about a more pluralistic approach: Most Holy Places or Most Sacred Sites? Or both, one redirected to the other. By making "place" or "site" plural, it allows for a pluralistic approach to the article, and perhaps most importantly, it completely betrays the exclusive, superlative concept couched in a singular "Most Holy Place" or "Holy of Holies." Regards, -- Rojerts 12:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The heading of this article says: "For the term Most Holy Place as used in the King James Version of the Bible, see Holy of Holies."
But the term "Most Holy Place" no longer appears anywhere in the body of the Holy of Holies article.
And mention of the idiom was also removed from the Holy of Holies article in its 21:49, 14 October 2007 edit.
I have heard that the repetition of a word in Hebrew is intended to be an emphasis of the word. The following repetitions appear to have that intent ( http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html ):
The emphasis on the degree of superlative intended by the Hebrew construction may be missed by those who are unaware of the idiom.
Perhaps the "of" in these translations is a concession to ease of reading in English? Might they also be translated, "Holiest holy [place]", "Vainest vanity", etc.? "Songiest song" doesn't flow at all in English, but would that convey the intention of the Hebrew construction?
http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/1-2.htm
Discussion of the King James translation as "Most Holy Place" and the idiom could be helpful somewhere. Both were mentioned in the Holy of Holies article at one time, but they were removed during restructuring of that article. - Ac44ck ( talk) 04:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I think the mention of Varanasi as the holiest place in Hinduism is plainly wrong. Hinduism doesnt have one holiest place but consider many. One thing about Hinduism is freedom of choice and there are many holy sites equaly 'holy' if you have to say. I recommend that we remove the mention of Varanasi. Abhask ( talk) 17:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In this section, we have the statement that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre represents over 1.5 billion Christians or 25% of mankind. 'Mankind' is estimated to have around 6.7 billion people ( POPClock). This means that 1.5 billion, give or take, actually represents 22% of the world's population. I understand that there's a certain interesting point in thinking that almost a quarter of the world is comprised of Catholics/Orthodox Christians, so I left the 25% in the paragraph. But because it is isn't quite 25%, I modified the statement by adding 'almost'. This preserves the notion of 'a quarter of the population' but adds that it isn't quite a quarter of the population. Ultatri ( talk) 18:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
What about the many indigenous groups out there, many of which have sacred sites of their own? Take, for example, Crater Lake in Oregon which is considered the most sacred site of the Klamath people. Shouldn't they be considered, too?-- 174.59.220.52 ( talk) 11:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
"List of significant religious sites"? Wikipedia calling anything "sacred" seems like a bad idea to me. -- 82.152.179.249 ( talk) 22:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
The article seemed to be too biased towards Christianity, with reference to the amount of information available on the topic. I propose moving all the information on Christianity in a separate article titled "List of significant religious sites in Christianity" and having only a transcribed version of the same in the current topic to protect it from being too biased towards any religious faith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.102.49 ( talk) 10:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
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The information provided on the most recent edition of this article concerning the LDS church provides a more basic Christian perspective on the LDS church. As well, the addition of the Sistine Chapel to the secton on Roman Catholic religious sites is to emphasize the importance of the Holy See in Catholicism, not to mention the fact that the Papal conclave occurs here.
-- 108.207.218.55 ( talk) 16:36, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
It would be nice to add some African religious sites like those of the Oromo people of Ethiopia, Lake Hora. Many exist, just want to remind editors here that to not forget poor old Africa. And there are those in Islam like Toubaa, Senegal. I would love to help but let me start by suggesting. -- Inayity ( talk) 20:05, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
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Bethlehem is a sacred place in Christianity. It is where Mary, the mother of Jesus was born. 65.78.2.156 ( talk) 00:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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The diagram should be reversed right-to-left, as the entrance to the tabernacle and temple faced to the east. I recognize that the diagram is not specifically drawn with compass directions specified, but I feel it would be better.
Unfortunately my HTML-fu is a little weak and rusty these days, or I'd do it myself. Maybe I'll come back. Jdavidb 15:21, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I believe that the Manti temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also has a Holy of Holies off the celestial room, but it is not used as such - though it is not used for another purpose either. But this is just from memory - any other thoughts out there?
This might be an overly narrow view of what the Holy of Holies is for. Yes it's where the President of the High Priesthood (and of the Church) confers with the Lord, but it is also used for the ordinance called the "second anointing," and other temples have rooms specially set aside for that purpose. Furthermore, the Celestial room today fills a role analogous to the Holy of Holies during the presentation of the Endowment. Like I said, I think the definition used here is overly narrow.
I recommend splitting the article into two and adding a Most Holy Place (Latter Day Saints) article, as there are two different places as well as different religious traditions involved. -- Shirahadasha 01:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Agree with the split in articles. Reworked wording; "a room that is believed to be a place where God dwelt"--in the past tense--is not fitting with LDS Theology or terminology.-- Rojerts 02:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Eliminated redirect and created stub for article Holy of Holies, of the Jewish Tabernacle and Temple in Jerusalem and thus a distinct article from this one on sanctuaries in various faiths. Will move details on Temple in Jerusalem to Holy of Holies and leave a summary with this article. -- Shirahadasha 21:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Edited LDS portion to reflect current Mormon thought.-- Rojerts 21:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
The Manti Temple's Holy of Holies is now being used as a sealing room.
The sentence "The Jews consider this blasphemous" was recently added - is there a reference for this - as I have not heard of this before today? Trödel| talk 12:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Traditional Judaism is irrelevant. Wikipedia is not censored and Wikipedians are most certainly not prohibited from writing a word because it offends some religious sect. Childe Roland of Gilead 10:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed a claim in the article stating that the Holy of Holies was at the "center"e. The Talmud provides very precise dimensions, Tractate Yoma, for example, provides dimensions indicating a clear Jewish tradition that while it was centered North-South, it was placed significantly to the west on the East-West axis. In light of this tradion, a claim that it was at the center not only should not be taken as fact, in the absence of a source the claim should be deleted. Note that the diagram reflects this assymetry and shows a location which is clearly well to the west of center. -- Shirahadasha 07:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This article's religious POV appears to take a position based strictly on the Hebrew Bible, which provides for the building of a tabernacle in the Wilderness. But traditional Judiasm relies on an Oral Law, the foundation of the Talmud, which contains much more detailed directions about the building of the Temple in Jerusalem. According to Orthodox Judaism, these instructions also came from God. I would suggest somewhat more careful language here. We could say things like "according to the Hebrew Bible, God said", which would then permit language like "according to the Talmud, this really meant..." -- Shirahadasha 01:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following material, all of which appears to present a (non-Jewish) WP:OR perspectives that the Ark in a Jewish synagogue is comparable to the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem. There are resemblances, but one just isn't the same as the other. No branch of Judaism would find the sort of analogy this article claims. Orthodox Judaism would say the Holy of Holies is irreplacable, while Reform Judaism would say it is no longer relevant. Sources need to be supplied to support these claims -- and I challenge anyone to find mainstream Jewish opinion that does so.
The Church of the Holy Sepulcre (supposedly the location of the crucifixion of Jesus) was stated as the Holy of Holies for all Christians, whereas this is not necessarily the case, particularly with a large portion of Christianity that does revere any one location as a "Most Holy Place." Therefore I changed the wording to "some Christians." Soonercary 18:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It looks to me as if this article has gone off the rails. "Most Holy Place" is an English rendering of the Hebrew Kodesh Hakodashim, specifying the inner chamber of the Jerusalem Temple. As a translation it may or may not be very high quality: Holy of Holies is a more literal rendering of the phrase, and at least according to a comment on Talk:Holy of Holies it carries the meaning better too.
However, what we have here are not places bearing the either the name "Most Holy Place" or "Holy of Holies", but a collection of the holiest shrines or cities in a number of different religions. This is worth an article, but if that's what it's to be it's misnamed, and neither the chamber of the Jerusalem Temple nor its Mormon meaning belong here. I therefore propose the following reorganization:
One more item: the proposed article name of "Holiest Place" still allows for confusion. In some traditions, "holiest place" might be taken as a synonym to "holy of holies." Holiest place lends a superlative air to it that represents the original idiom.
Instead, how about a more pluralistic approach: Most Holy Places or Most Sacred Sites? Or both, one redirected to the other. By making "place" or "site" plural, it allows for a pluralistic approach to the article, and perhaps most importantly, it completely betrays the exclusive, superlative concept couched in a singular "Most Holy Place" or "Holy of Holies." Regards, -- Rojerts 12:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The heading of this article says: "For the term Most Holy Place as used in the King James Version of the Bible, see Holy of Holies."
But the term "Most Holy Place" no longer appears anywhere in the body of the Holy of Holies article.
And mention of the idiom was also removed from the Holy of Holies article in its 21:49, 14 October 2007 edit.
I have heard that the repetition of a word in Hebrew is intended to be an emphasis of the word. The following repetitions appear to have that intent ( http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html ):
The emphasis on the degree of superlative intended by the Hebrew construction may be missed by those who are unaware of the idiom.
Perhaps the "of" in these translations is a concession to ease of reading in English? Might they also be translated, "Holiest holy [place]", "Vainest vanity", etc.? "Songiest song" doesn't flow at all in English, but would that convey the intention of the Hebrew construction?
http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/1-2.htm
Discussion of the King James translation as "Most Holy Place" and the idiom could be helpful somewhere. Both were mentioned in the Holy of Holies article at one time, but they were removed during restructuring of that article. - Ac44ck ( talk) 04:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I think the mention of Varanasi as the holiest place in Hinduism is plainly wrong. Hinduism doesnt have one holiest place but consider many. One thing about Hinduism is freedom of choice and there are many holy sites equaly 'holy' if you have to say. I recommend that we remove the mention of Varanasi. Abhask ( talk) 17:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In this section, we have the statement that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre represents over 1.5 billion Christians or 25% of mankind. 'Mankind' is estimated to have around 6.7 billion people ( POPClock). This means that 1.5 billion, give or take, actually represents 22% of the world's population. I understand that there's a certain interesting point in thinking that almost a quarter of the world is comprised of Catholics/Orthodox Christians, so I left the 25% in the paragraph. But because it is isn't quite 25%, I modified the statement by adding 'almost'. This preserves the notion of 'a quarter of the population' but adds that it isn't quite a quarter of the population. Ultatri ( talk) 18:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
What about the many indigenous groups out there, many of which have sacred sites of their own? Take, for example, Crater Lake in Oregon which is considered the most sacred site of the Klamath people. Shouldn't they be considered, too?-- 174.59.220.52 ( talk) 11:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
"List of significant religious sites"? Wikipedia calling anything "sacred" seems like a bad idea to me. -- 82.152.179.249 ( talk) 22:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
The article seemed to be too biased towards Christianity, with reference to the amount of information available on the topic. I propose moving all the information on Christianity in a separate article titled "List of significant religious sites in Christianity" and having only a transcribed version of the same in the current topic to protect it from being too biased towards any religious faith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.102.49 ( talk) 10:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
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Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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The information provided on the most recent edition of this article concerning the LDS church provides a more basic Christian perspective on the LDS church. As well, the addition of the Sistine Chapel to the secton on Roman Catholic religious sites is to emphasize the importance of the Holy See in Catholicism, not to mention the fact that the Papal conclave occurs here.
-- 108.207.218.55 ( talk) 16:36, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
It would be nice to add some African religious sites like those of the Oromo people of Ethiopia, Lake Hora. Many exist, just want to remind editors here that to not forget poor old Africa. And there are those in Islam like Toubaa, Senegal. I would love to help but let me start by suggesting. -- Inayity ( talk) 20:05, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
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Bethlehem is a sacred place in Christianity. It is where Mary, the mother of Jesus was born. 65.78.2.156 ( talk) 00:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
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