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I very strongly support Eraserhead1's suggestion (in the previous section) to take this to mediation. I have tried discussion on multiple pages, tried discussion at a noticeboard, but still there is no agreement. What I don't understand is why users would be reluctant to enter a method of dispute resolution that is sanctioned by wikipedia? VR talk 03:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not God and therefore it's mediation could not be considered final. The arguments here stand for themselves and for what they are. Let rationale be the authority, rather than a body providing a forum for the dissemination of information (not necessarily facts). Only people desperate for European knowledge to be recognized as at the forefront of World knowledge need some sort of authority to permit or sanction them to think out of the box. Listen to your inner voice, that is your ultimate authority. Boris Johnson in his documentary: After Rome Holy War and Conquest, refers to "Al-Azhar University (Cairo) founded in 975 at a time when Oxford was still a place where an Ox forded by a river". Look at the world around us and it is self evident that European descended knowledge is not at the forefront, in fact it is constantly losing ground since gaining ground in the middle ages. Great Empires on the cutting edge come and go, this is the narrative of world history, why should it be different now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.232.56 ( talk) 00:47, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Poland has been omitted or removed from the list of countries. Poland has one of the oldest universities in the world as is noted in the article above: the Jagiellonian University of Krakow, 1364 as well as the University of Lwow 1661. Other Polish universities came later.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.220.254 ( talk) 13:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Simply put, it is far too eurocentric. Institutions from various other parts of the world meet the definition of university as laid out in Wikipedia and yet they are excluded from the category, why? Up until very recently, a madrasa was simply an educational institution of some sort. The word itself told you almost nothing, it was the context and any qualifying words that gave the full picture. So to use the current Western understanding of the word to categorise a Cairo surgical college 1,000 years ago is problematic. As for the Chinese and Indian academies, they both had communities of scholars teaching, testing, sharing knowledge and issuing qualifications, yet they are excluded as well. In truth it seems that the problem lies in the editors' lack of knowledge of academic traditions outside the West. A contributory factor would be the lack of freely available English language studies of historic academic institutions outside Europe. Doc Meroe ( talk) 01:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
So the fact is that the university article does mention historical universities in non-western civilisations. At the moment this article essentially says ancient universities were all European because only European institutions were European. Of course a Chinese higher education institution differed from one in England in certain ways because they were the product of vastly differing cultural environments. In the same way, Northern and Southern European universities were extremely dissimilar and all of them differ wildly from their modern descendants. The actual university article at least mentions the fact that a "university" is a different thing depending on when and where it existed, this one totally ignores that fact. Under the definition given in the university article, any number of ancient institutions qualify as universities. They are then disqualified from consideration because of sources that say unless the structure, purpose and ethos of both the institution and the society in which it operated matched those that applied somewhere in mediaeval Europe, it wasn't a university. If that isn't Eurocentric, then I'll eat my hat. Doc Meroe ( talk) 14:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
That article does not say universities only existed in Europe, this one does. The fact that the preponderance of the information in that article is about the history of European institutions does not preclude the existence of such institutions outside Europe. As with many articles in this wiki it simply shows that the project tends towards a certain systemic bias due to the contributors' origins. The university article needs more information about institutions outside the west, but that is a somewhat different thing. Doc Meroe ( talk) 15:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
The article says that now because you edited it to say so. You unilaterally decided to remove the reference to institutions outside the West because you "felt it was inconsistent with the rest of the article". Then you're now saying until the edit that you yourself made and that did not exist at the time of my initial statement, is altered, I should not criticise this page, even though at the time of my initial criticism, the page said something different. The mind boggles 82.11.184.85 ( talk) 19:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Your peremptory tone aside, before I wrote on this page I read this talk page, the university article, talk page and the primary sources. Furthermore, the fact that a consensus was reached has nothing to do with discussing issues with the article on the talk page. Since it amounts to "universities were European therefore institutions outside Europe were not universities" the consensus is...problematic. A university can be many things (according to the main article), and no nation has a set definition of what a university is (again according to the main article). For the consensus to demonstrate anything other than an ignorance of non-western societies and institutions, it would need to say what a university was, what a madrasa/academy/whatever was and then show why the categories were mutually exclusive. Doc Meroe ( talk) 22:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I do not need to do any such thing. The fact that people from or with knowledge of non-western cultures express their dissent often enough for it to "have been talked to death" is sufficient. The warning at the top of the article lets people know that this article does not represent a worldwide view and is regarded as controversial. As that is the case then any discerning reader knows that outside the West, this article would be regarded as...dubious. It is an article written by westerners for westerners and that's perfectly fine as long as everyone knows the situation. If the article simply stated that it was about the oldest university based on the mediaeval European model and does not consider other institutions regardless of age, function or purpose, then I wouldn't really have a problem with it. If someone attempts to mischaracterise it as being uncontroversial or anything but parochial in outlook, then I'll take advantage of "our dispute resolution procedure". Doc Meroe ( talk) 21:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
My goal isn't necessarily to alter the article particularly not if it will result in edit-warring etc. I'll settle for ensuring that at the very least no one can pretend that it isn't based on a non-representative viewpoint. Having said that, I will alter it so that any readers know that it only considers medieval European institutions to be universities. Doc Meroe ( talk) 22:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
The definition is from those who subscribe to a particular research model. To assert that this view is widely held by humans (as opposed to the human subset westerners) would be false. An analogy: I examined my father, brother and myself, detailing our height, weight, blood group, shoe size, gender, ethnicity etc., in an attempt to define the term "human". Since I know that we are human, any deviation from our template means that the individual being examined is not human. That is in effect what the current university definition does with educational institutions. If you look at the discussion on the university talk page you'll see part of the reason why such a strange situation arose. Doc Meroe ( talk) 09:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I should add that to avoid edit warring, I did not revert or alter the last edit by Jonathan A Jones, but I strenuously disagree with it. To use Rushdall as justification for a Europe centred definition of university is unsound. Imagine Rushdall was a cartographer who mapped only Europe and nowhere else. Would we then conclude that Elbrus was the worlds tallest mountain and that Everest wasn't a mountain at all since it isn't an inactive volcano? So why would we use his model of what a university was/wasn't, as it's based on precisely that logic. Doc Meroe ( talk) 10:40, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
If we are dealing with universities that "must have been founded before 1500 in Europe", as the first paragraph stipulates, then the title of the article must be changed to reflect exactly that. The title in its present form is misleading because when I type 'oldest university in the world', this page comes to the top of the list and it doesn't include, or rather, intentionally excludes, institutions like Al Azhar or Al Karaouine (they are not even present in the secondary list below the European highlights). ailamos 01:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Maybe this article might seem Eurocentric, but Al Karaouine and Al Azhar only became universities as such in the 20th century. This is meant to be a list of the oldest continuously operated *universities* - not the oldest continuously operated educational institutions. There are continuously operated European educational institutions that are far older than Al Karaouine or Al Azhar, such as The King's School in Canterbury founded in 597 - in fact almost two dozen educational institutions founded in Europe before the oldest university on this list that are in operation today (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_oldest_schools_in_the_world ) - but none of those institutions appear on the list because they are not universities. They are schools of other types (mostly secondary schools now). N0thingbetter ( talk) 19:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
The Euro-centric bias shown in this article is preposterous ! If the fact that "university" is an european word is used to discriminate all non-european universities from being called universities -- all discoveries of the world should be called indian discoveries -- since they use the indian/arabic numerical system for representation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.184.135 ( talk) 03:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Please correct the title of the page. It should say specifically that this list is for Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.83.248.32 ( talk) 09:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
There's a bunch of universities that state they were not in continuous operation but the title of the article has the word continuous in it. How do you reconcile? 69.145.152.82 ( talk) 12:44, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
This list is being used to claim that no non-Christian medieval university can be called a university, regardless of what reliable sources say on the topic. That al-Azhar and al-Karioune are systematically excluded from even being mentioned on this page is a gross violation of WP:NPOV. There is an arbitrary criteria put forth not by the sources but by Wikipedia editors that such and such must be satisfied for something to be called a university. Sorry, but no, that is simply untrue. What must be satisfied for a place to be on this list is that reliable sources must say that it is, and was founded as, a university. Anything beyond that is unsupported by Wikipedia policy. I see in the archives that users feel that they can ignore the wider community, as represented in such forums as NPOV/N. No, you cannot. There are a large number of sources for both al-Azhar and al-Karioune as being founded as universities prior to most of those listed. That other sources dispute that is fine, we should say that, as WP:NPOV demands. What cannot be done is that a collection of users determines that their view is the only POV that matters. NPOV, a core policy of this website, says otherwise. I request the reasons why non-Christian universities are excluded from this list, or that this list be appropriately titled as List of oldest European (or Christian) universities in continuous operation. You cant claim a monopoly over the term and ignore the large number of eminently reliable sources that dispute your view. nableezy - 21:03, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Jacques Verger, an internationally leading historian on the subject, makes it plain clear why the use of the term "university" with regard to non-European institutions of higher education is anachronistic and just careless terminology:
No one today would dispute the fact that universities, in the sense in which the term is now generally understood, were a creation of the Middle Ages, appearing for the first time between the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. It is no doubt true that other civilizations, prior to, or wholly alien to, the medieval West, such as the Roman Empire, Byzantium, Islam, or China, were familiar with forms of higher education which a number of historians, for the sake of convenience, have sometimes describes as universities. Yet a closer look makes it plain that the institutional reality was altogether different and, no matter what has been said on the subject, there is no real link such as would justify us in associating them with medieval universities in the West. Until there is definite proof to the contrary, these latter must be regarded as the sole source of the model which gradually spread through the whole of Europe and then to the whole world. We are therefore concerned with what is indisputably an original institution, which can only be defined in terms of a historical analysis of its emergence and its mode of operation in concrete circumstances. (Verger, Jacques: "Patterns", in: Ridder-Symoens, Hilde de (ed.): A History of the University in Europe. Vol. I: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 2003, ISBN 978-0-521-54113-8, pp. 35–76 (35))
This means the POV and the OR rather lies with those who coin madrasas as "universities" even though both are historically and conceptually unrelated. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 13:21, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
@ Athenean, sure, here are sources for al-Azhar:
Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the oldest continuously operating institution of higher religous learning in the world, is not considered a state university though it is piblic. Al-Azhar University was established in 970 C.E. as a school of Islamic studies
Situated in Cairo and formerly also located with the great al-Azhar Mosque, this is the oldest and still the most important Islamic university in the world. Al-Azhar University has taught Islamic law, theology, and Arabic for more than 1,000 years. The first recorded seminar was held in 975, when chief justice Abu El-Hassan sat in the courtyard of the university and, reading from a book on jurisprudence written by his father, instructed students in the intricacies of Shiite law.
The first prayers were held in the mosque in 972, and in 989 it acquired the stats of a college with the appointment of thirty-five scholars to teach the Isma'ili Shi'a theology to which the Fatimids adhered.
I have some more (I wrote (largely) al-Azhar Mosque) but I'll have to go through them to see which deals with the university and which deal with the history of the mosque exclusively. That will take some time. nableezy - 18:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 18:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)It is no doubt true that other civilizations, prior to, or wholly alien to, the medieval West, such as the Roman Empire, Byzantium, Islam, or China, were familiar with forms of higher education which a number of historians, for the sake of convenience, have sometimes describes as universities. Yet a closer look makes it plain that the institutional reality was altogether different and, no matter what has been said on the subject, there is no real link such as would justify us in associating them with medieval universities in the West.
Thy topic has been discussed to death and well beyond (see the very extensive archive); Gun Powder Ma is entirely correct. Jonathan A Jones ( talk) 19:37, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Some additional sources:
Ednan Aslan is a University Professor at the University of Vienna in the Institute for Islamic Religious Education
The Muslim community maintained, favoured, and organized the institutions for higher education that became the new centres for the diffusion of Islamic knowledge. These centres were places where teachers and students of that time would meet and also where all intellectuals would gather and take part in extremely important scientific debates. It is not a coincidence that around the 9th centurey the first university in the world, the Qarawiyyin University in Fez, was established in the Muslim world followed by az-Zaytuna in Tunis and Al-Azhar in Cairo. The university model, that in the West was widespread starting only from the 12th century, had an extraordinary fortune and was spread throughout the Muslim world at least until the colonial period.
Jack Goldstone is a professor in the School of Public Policy at George Mason University
Islamic scientists and scholars developed the first universities as centers for scholarship in North Africa and Egypt; the universities of Al-Azhar in Cairo, founded in AD 988, and of Al-Karaouine in Fez (Morocco), founded in 859, are the world's oldest ongoing universities
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help)I again ask if anybody can honestly claim that the view that al-Karaouine and al-Azhar were not founded as universities, and are among the "oldest universities in continuous operation" is not a significant view that [has] been published in reliable source? nableezy - 15:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#List_of_oldest_universities nableezy - 18:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I dont think anybody has disputed that there are several sources that say that the university is a uniquely European innovation. What you do not seem to get however is that other reliable sources take a different view, and that per NPOV Wikipedia must include that view as well. Here are two:
The Muslim community maintained, favoured, and organized the institutions for higher education that became the new centres for the diffusion of Islamic knowledge. These centres were places where teachers and students of that time would meet and also where all intellectuals would gather and take part in extremely important scientific debates. It is not a coincidence that around the 9th centurey the first university in the world, the Qarawiyyin University in Fez, was established in the Muslim world followed by az-Zaytuna in Tunis and Al-Azhar in Cairo. The university model, that in the West was widespread starting only from the 12th century, had an extraordinary fortune and was spread throughout the Muslim world at least until the colonial period.
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help)Universities operate in the world of post-compulsory educaiton. While educating young people has never been their only function it has, for almsot every university, been the most significant of their activities, providing progression from schoold to, for most student, their final stage of formal education. But while school education is compulsory to some level in every country of the world, progression to university has never been compulsory. The first university was established in Fez, Morocco in the night century AD, and the oldest university in the UK is the University of Oxford whose origins can be traced back to 1167.
nableezy - 23:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This is really a simple black-and-white answer: the university is a distinctly European institution. Al-Azhar is a venerable, ancient institution of higher learning, but was not designated a university until the 1950s. Therefore, it does not belong in this article.
My suggestion, then, is twofold:
Not about "white people" or "brown people". If you're gonna include Madrassas, then you'd also have to include Plato's Academy, Taoist and Hindu monasteries in China and India, etc.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.218.67.253 ( talk) 01:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The Catholic University of Louvain, founded in Mechlin (Malines - Mechelen) in 1834 by the bisshops of Belgium don't have any historical links with the old abolished university of Louvain. Several rules of the Belgian Courts, of Cassation and Appel of Belgium, forbide the identification of the Catholic University with the Old University : "L'université catholique de Louvain ne peut être considérée comme continuant l'ancienne université de Louvain; et lorsqu'un acte de fondation a désigné pour collateur un professeur de cette ancienne université, il y a lieu d'y pourvoir par le gouvernement", (Table générale alphabétique et chronologique de la Pasicrisie Belge contenant la jurisprudence du Royaume de 1814 à 1850, Bruxelles, 1855, p. 585, colonne 1, alinea 2. And : Bulletin Usuel des Lois et Arrêtés, 1861, p.166.). To see also this rule of the Cour d'Appel of 1844: La Belgique Judiciaire, 28 july 1844 n° 69, p. 1 : "Cour d’Appel de Bruxelles. Deuxième chambre. L'université libre de Louvain ne représente pas légalement l’antique université de cette ville. Attendu que cette université (l’ancienne Université de Louvain), instituée par une bulle papale, de concert avec l'autorité souveraine, formait un corps reconnu dans l'État, ayant différentes attributions, dont plusieurs même lui étaient déléguées par le pouvoir civil; Attendu que ce corps a été supprimé par les lois de la république française; Attendu que l'université existant actuellement à Louvain ne peut être considérée comme continuant celle qui existait en 1457, ces deux établissemens ayant un caractère bien distinct, puisque l'université actuelle, non reconnue comme personne civile, n'est qu'un établissement tout-à-fait privé, résultat de la liberté d'enseignement , en dehors de toute action du pouvoir et sans autorité dans l'État...".-- 94.108.133.78 ( talk) 22:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
There is no University of Paris in continuous operation. Why, then, is it on this list? The University of Paris was disbanded by Napoleon. It was only re-established decades after Napoleon, and then it was dissolved in the 1960s/70s. It should be removed from the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.69.92 ( talk) 04:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
It is stated in the introduction "Other institutions of higher learning, like those of ancient Greece, ancient Rome, Byzantium, ancient China, ancient India, the Arab World, are not included in this list due to their cultural, historical and structual dissimilarities from the medieval European university from which the modern university evolved.[5][6][7]"
Therefore, I think it is better to update the topic name for a better representation. For example, List of oldest christian universities in continuous operation or List of oldest universities in Medieval Europe continuous operation or any suitable clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abudy8 ( talk • contribs) 18:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
I hope the title can accurately reflect the content and be changed to "List of oldest modern European universities in continuos operation. It is subtly hostile (see micro-aggression) to dismiss real universities as illegitimate based off of ONE extraordinary nationalistic and biased definition of what a university is. Just because the italians put a word the current day english term for university "a community of teachers and scholars," it may have just been their view of already established universities. That Italian university never intended nor claimed to be the first ever enlightened community of teachers and scholars, but instead, built their foundation on the example of previous established universities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.173.24 ( talk) 15:23, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not so much puzzled as appalled by the lack of arabic universities. A lot of the criteria for considering the university a university only refer to the peculiar political status of christianity in medieval Europe and the dual legal system: this could not exist in countries which had a singular legal system to begin with. Medieval european universities also lacked standards of examination (this has been touched already), and a lot of the universities listed on this list were only theological schools when they were founded, which makes them no different from a madrassah. Both the muslim and catholic academic systems were largely mired in the same sterile scholastics anyway, there's no real continuity between the modern, post enlightenment university and the medieval scholae, aside from the fact that a handful are in the same buildings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Note that the Rüegg quote is about enlightenment academia and the 18th century. Until the 17th-18th century, universities in the west were no different from the medieval muslim madrassah, probably even less intellectually engaging. There is a major breaking point brought about by the expansion of natural philosophy and the creation of the french and prussian schools which would inspire the modern academy. The university of Berlin was modelled after the french grandes écoles and the Polytechnique, not after the sterile aristocratic finishing schools that were Oxbridge. - Still the same IP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Also Al-Azhar's list of teaching subjects, caricaturally summed up as religious law, included everything that was taught in medieval universities except medicine, which only a few universities taught anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:40, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Both schools were removed for nonsensical, catholic centric understandings of the medieval west. It's very clear, when reading the blurbs on both these schools, that what they taught is the same thing taught in catholic universities (theology, law, rhetoric, philosophy, etc) but in a muslim context. The argument that they shouldn't be considered universities because there were multiple academic centers in a city like Baghdad is specious, but completely ignores that Baghdad was four times the size of the catholic world's largest cities, Venice and Paris. It also ignores the fact that some cities did have multiple universities: the modern university of Aberdeen results from the fusion of no less than three ancient universities (15th and 16th century foundations), for a city of maybe 5000 to 10000 souls at most at the end of the middle ages. - This is the last point of my rant and a repost of what I said in the ridiculous POV fork this article engendered. 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
→ http://www.harvard.edu/president/universities-changing-world
→″In India, dedication to global collaboration and to the breadth of the liberal arts has deep roots. The ancient university of Nalanda, which Harvard economist Amartya Sen is helping to revive, was a model center for the exchange of ideas and international collaboration 600 years before any similar institution appeared in the west. By the 7th century, Nalanda drew students from all parts of Asia, combining innovation in math, science, philosophy, and the arts with Buddhist studies and applied fields that included health care, medicine, engineering, and architecture. We might say that India, in an earlier globalizing era, invented the kind of higher education we still aspire to.″ 90.207.74.73 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
This article is insanely POV, people can try and hide behind some definition of a university that basically ignores anything that isn't European, but its pretty clear someone has an agenda to push. Disgraceful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.143.5.160 ( talk) 12:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Just pointing out that the view of universities as being exclusively European was recently criticized by an article published on the United Nations website as "narrow" and "Eurocentric":
Also, UNESCO seems to recognize that the world's oldest university is found in Morocco. Dont bash me for trying to change the definition of "university", Im just highlighting what the U.N. seems to say. The Washington Post says that the University of Karueein is the oldest existing, and continually operating university in the world. Even Guinness World Records doesn't recognize the University of Bologna as the world's oldest university in the world, only oldest in Europe:
- A1candidate ( talk) 23:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
See the views of experts. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 15:03, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Since you cite WP:DUE, why should an institition which is not accepted as an university by the vast majority of sources, and the more scholarly at that, be included right up in the lead? Isn't this rather very much a case of WP:undue then?
Aside, singling out an institution which is not treated in the article does not comply with WP:Lead which clearly specifies that the lead only summarizes contents. There is no Lex Al-Karaouinensis in the guidelines which warrants an exception. On this basis alone Al-Karaouine has to be removed from the lead.
The reality is the university of Al-Karaouine was founded as late as 1963. I have provided reliable, neutral sources stating this below. Furthermore, education at the Al-Karaouine mosque school was discontinued for three decades until its reopening in 1988, so it can be argued that the institution did not operate continuously since the 9th century, the exclusion criteria for this list. In fact, Al-Karaouine's claim can be refuted from multiple more angles, each of them as viable as the other, which I present below. Most of the quotes are taken from internationally recognized authorities in the field plus renowned specialist encyclopedias, so source quality is very high indeed.
As a compromise though, to show goodwill and make people happy so that we can move on, I move its mention to a footnote. Best Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 21:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Either Washington and Jefferson College should be removed from the list, as every reference I can find still refers to it as a college, or Hampden-Sydney College should be added because it is five years older, 1776. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.241.199.57 ( talk) 12:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The present-day University of Pec does not belong on this list, as it has only been in continuous operation since 1912, and in its present location since 1921. The original University of Pecs (founded 1367) was disbanded after the Ottoman conquest of Hungary in 1526; it was arguably revived in 1785 when Joseph II moved the Royal Academy from Gyor to Pec - although this was not technically a re-founding of Pec, but rather a relocation of an existing institute to the city of Pec, marking no institutional continuity with the medieval university. Moreover, the Royal Academy was returned to Gyor in 1802. The current University of Pec began as the University of Pozsony in 1912, and only moved to Pec in 1921, in the aftermath of the partition of Austria-Hungary. See the University of Pécs page for more on this. It is clear that the University of Pec has not been in "continuous operation" since 1367. Moreover, there is no evidence of official, institutional, or even geographical continuity between the original University and its modern namesake; the only thing they have in common is the name itself. Thus the University of Pec does not meet the criteria for inclusion on this list. Barring any substantive objections, I intend to remove Pec from this list in the near future. 24.60.0.22 ( talk) 21:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
The following scholarly sources, most of them expert historians and specialized encyclopedias, demonstrate that
Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 21:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Views of Expert historians and specialized encyclopedias
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Expert historians and specialized encyclopediasThe medieval Christian origin of the university
The difference(s) between the university and the madrasa
The first universities all in medieval Europe
Al-Karaouine was a madrasa, not a universityWhat is a madrasa?
Madrasas had no institutional structure, no curriculum, no regular examination and no system of degrees
Al-Karaouine was founded or run as a madrasa, mosque school or mosque, not a university
Al-Karaouine was transformed only in modern times into a university.
Al-Karaouine was not among the first madrasas, therefore it cannot have been the first university, even if one considers a madrasa a university
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Al-Karaouine is not "special case", but its claim relies on two assumptions: A. That a madrasah is a university and B. That Al-Karaouine is the oldest madrasah. Both claims have been refuted by a multitude of reliable sources above. A. is, more over, rebutted by the fact that WP has two distinct articles on them indicating that the consensus is these are two different institutions which we don't mix. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 18:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
The point Im trying to make is that a neutral article should take both sides into consideration especially when the opposing viewpoint is not a fringe theory:
"Some regard the University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco, which was founded in 859, to be the world's oldest continuously operating academic degree-granting higher education institution. Others cite the University of Nalanda in Bihar, India, founded in 427, as the oldest one. The first European university to be established was Bologna in 1088, then in 1167 the University of Oxford, followed by the University of Cambridge in 1209 and the University of Paris in 1231."
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Im not saying that the University of Bologna asserts a different viewpoint, but the fact that the University of Bologna does not even recognizes itself as the world's oldest university only underscores the point that this subject is controversial and both viewpoints should be respected. Note: Constructive discussion is welcome but personal attacks like these and these are extremly disruptive and I WILL it to a higher level if you do it again. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do expect you to discuss in a matured and civilized manner. - A1candidate ( talk) 07:28, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
These sources have the same flaws as the previous ones: lack of quality. They are very short, they don't define the subject (what do they mean with "university", a madrasa?) and they are not from experts on the history of the university. Besides, it has been many times pointed out that the scope of the topic is defined at university, not here. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 13:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Definition of a Madrasa, as quoted by Gun Powder Ma on May 31, 2013 (in German)
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In case you've somehow forgotten about your previous edit, take a look at this diff. I assume that you're able to comprehend German since you quoted this, but for the sake of all those who dont, the source tells us that:
I dont think its fair to argue that only institutions with a Christian heritage are allowed to be considered universities. Madrasas are not mosques, but they do grant doctorate titles and this is according to your sources - A1candidate ( talk) 19:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I have added a note at Talk:University about the apparent recent changes in the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of "University". This new definition appears to offer more scope for institutions that don't meet the characteristics of Medieval European universities.
Discussion of the implications for Wikipedia of this new definition can best be carried out there, rather than here. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 15:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
I very strongly support Eraserhead1's suggestion (in the previous section) to take this to mediation. I have tried discussion on multiple pages, tried discussion at a noticeboard, but still there is no agreement. What I don't understand is why users would be reluctant to enter a method of dispute resolution that is sanctioned by wikipedia? VR talk 03:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not God and therefore it's mediation could not be considered final. The arguments here stand for themselves and for what they are. Let rationale be the authority, rather than a body providing a forum for the dissemination of information (not necessarily facts). Only people desperate for European knowledge to be recognized as at the forefront of World knowledge need some sort of authority to permit or sanction them to think out of the box. Listen to your inner voice, that is your ultimate authority. Boris Johnson in his documentary: After Rome Holy War and Conquest, refers to "Al-Azhar University (Cairo) founded in 975 at a time when Oxford was still a place where an Ox forded by a river". Look at the world around us and it is self evident that European descended knowledge is not at the forefront, in fact it is constantly losing ground since gaining ground in the middle ages. Great Empires on the cutting edge come and go, this is the narrative of world history, why should it be different now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.232.56 ( talk) 00:47, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Poland has been omitted or removed from the list of countries. Poland has one of the oldest universities in the world as is noted in the article above: the Jagiellonian University of Krakow, 1364 as well as the University of Lwow 1661. Other Polish universities came later.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.220.254 ( talk) 13:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Simply put, it is far too eurocentric. Institutions from various other parts of the world meet the definition of university as laid out in Wikipedia and yet they are excluded from the category, why? Up until very recently, a madrasa was simply an educational institution of some sort. The word itself told you almost nothing, it was the context and any qualifying words that gave the full picture. So to use the current Western understanding of the word to categorise a Cairo surgical college 1,000 years ago is problematic. As for the Chinese and Indian academies, they both had communities of scholars teaching, testing, sharing knowledge and issuing qualifications, yet they are excluded as well. In truth it seems that the problem lies in the editors' lack of knowledge of academic traditions outside the West. A contributory factor would be the lack of freely available English language studies of historic academic institutions outside Europe. Doc Meroe ( talk) 01:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
So the fact is that the university article does mention historical universities in non-western civilisations. At the moment this article essentially says ancient universities were all European because only European institutions were European. Of course a Chinese higher education institution differed from one in England in certain ways because they were the product of vastly differing cultural environments. In the same way, Northern and Southern European universities were extremely dissimilar and all of them differ wildly from their modern descendants. The actual university article at least mentions the fact that a "university" is a different thing depending on when and where it existed, this one totally ignores that fact. Under the definition given in the university article, any number of ancient institutions qualify as universities. They are then disqualified from consideration because of sources that say unless the structure, purpose and ethos of both the institution and the society in which it operated matched those that applied somewhere in mediaeval Europe, it wasn't a university. If that isn't Eurocentric, then I'll eat my hat. Doc Meroe ( talk) 14:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
That article does not say universities only existed in Europe, this one does. The fact that the preponderance of the information in that article is about the history of European institutions does not preclude the existence of such institutions outside Europe. As with many articles in this wiki it simply shows that the project tends towards a certain systemic bias due to the contributors' origins. The university article needs more information about institutions outside the west, but that is a somewhat different thing. Doc Meroe ( talk) 15:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
The article says that now because you edited it to say so. You unilaterally decided to remove the reference to institutions outside the West because you "felt it was inconsistent with the rest of the article". Then you're now saying until the edit that you yourself made and that did not exist at the time of my initial statement, is altered, I should not criticise this page, even though at the time of my initial criticism, the page said something different. The mind boggles 82.11.184.85 ( talk) 19:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Your peremptory tone aside, before I wrote on this page I read this talk page, the university article, talk page and the primary sources. Furthermore, the fact that a consensus was reached has nothing to do with discussing issues with the article on the talk page. Since it amounts to "universities were European therefore institutions outside Europe were not universities" the consensus is...problematic. A university can be many things (according to the main article), and no nation has a set definition of what a university is (again according to the main article). For the consensus to demonstrate anything other than an ignorance of non-western societies and institutions, it would need to say what a university was, what a madrasa/academy/whatever was and then show why the categories were mutually exclusive. Doc Meroe ( talk) 22:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I do not need to do any such thing. The fact that people from or with knowledge of non-western cultures express their dissent often enough for it to "have been talked to death" is sufficient. The warning at the top of the article lets people know that this article does not represent a worldwide view and is regarded as controversial. As that is the case then any discerning reader knows that outside the West, this article would be regarded as...dubious. It is an article written by westerners for westerners and that's perfectly fine as long as everyone knows the situation. If the article simply stated that it was about the oldest university based on the mediaeval European model and does not consider other institutions regardless of age, function or purpose, then I wouldn't really have a problem with it. If someone attempts to mischaracterise it as being uncontroversial or anything but parochial in outlook, then I'll take advantage of "our dispute resolution procedure". Doc Meroe ( talk) 21:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
My goal isn't necessarily to alter the article particularly not if it will result in edit-warring etc. I'll settle for ensuring that at the very least no one can pretend that it isn't based on a non-representative viewpoint. Having said that, I will alter it so that any readers know that it only considers medieval European institutions to be universities. Doc Meroe ( talk) 22:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
The definition is from those who subscribe to a particular research model. To assert that this view is widely held by humans (as opposed to the human subset westerners) would be false. An analogy: I examined my father, brother and myself, detailing our height, weight, blood group, shoe size, gender, ethnicity etc., in an attempt to define the term "human". Since I know that we are human, any deviation from our template means that the individual being examined is not human. That is in effect what the current university definition does with educational institutions. If you look at the discussion on the university talk page you'll see part of the reason why such a strange situation arose. Doc Meroe ( talk) 09:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I should add that to avoid edit warring, I did not revert or alter the last edit by Jonathan A Jones, but I strenuously disagree with it. To use Rushdall as justification for a Europe centred definition of university is unsound. Imagine Rushdall was a cartographer who mapped only Europe and nowhere else. Would we then conclude that Elbrus was the worlds tallest mountain and that Everest wasn't a mountain at all since it isn't an inactive volcano? So why would we use his model of what a university was/wasn't, as it's based on precisely that logic. Doc Meroe ( talk) 10:40, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
If we are dealing with universities that "must have been founded before 1500 in Europe", as the first paragraph stipulates, then the title of the article must be changed to reflect exactly that. The title in its present form is misleading because when I type 'oldest university in the world', this page comes to the top of the list and it doesn't include, or rather, intentionally excludes, institutions like Al Azhar or Al Karaouine (they are not even present in the secondary list below the European highlights). ailamos 01:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Maybe this article might seem Eurocentric, but Al Karaouine and Al Azhar only became universities as such in the 20th century. This is meant to be a list of the oldest continuously operated *universities* - not the oldest continuously operated educational institutions. There are continuously operated European educational institutions that are far older than Al Karaouine or Al Azhar, such as The King's School in Canterbury founded in 597 - in fact almost two dozen educational institutions founded in Europe before the oldest university on this list that are in operation today (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_oldest_schools_in_the_world ) - but none of those institutions appear on the list because they are not universities. They are schools of other types (mostly secondary schools now). N0thingbetter ( talk) 19:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
The Euro-centric bias shown in this article is preposterous ! If the fact that "university" is an european word is used to discriminate all non-european universities from being called universities -- all discoveries of the world should be called indian discoveries -- since they use the indian/arabic numerical system for representation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.184.135 ( talk) 03:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Please correct the title of the page. It should say specifically that this list is for Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.83.248.32 ( talk) 09:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
There's a bunch of universities that state they were not in continuous operation but the title of the article has the word continuous in it. How do you reconcile? 69.145.152.82 ( talk) 12:44, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
This list is being used to claim that no non-Christian medieval university can be called a university, regardless of what reliable sources say on the topic. That al-Azhar and al-Karioune are systematically excluded from even being mentioned on this page is a gross violation of WP:NPOV. There is an arbitrary criteria put forth not by the sources but by Wikipedia editors that such and such must be satisfied for something to be called a university. Sorry, but no, that is simply untrue. What must be satisfied for a place to be on this list is that reliable sources must say that it is, and was founded as, a university. Anything beyond that is unsupported by Wikipedia policy. I see in the archives that users feel that they can ignore the wider community, as represented in such forums as NPOV/N. No, you cannot. There are a large number of sources for both al-Azhar and al-Karioune as being founded as universities prior to most of those listed. That other sources dispute that is fine, we should say that, as WP:NPOV demands. What cannot be done is that a collection of users determines that their view is the only POV that matters. NPOV, a core policy of this website, says otherwise. I request the reasons why non-Christian universities are excluded from this list, or that this list be appropriately titled as List of oldest European (or Christian) universities in continuous operation. You cant claim a monopoly over the term and ignore the large number of eminently reliable sources that dispute your view. nableezy - 21:03, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Jacques Verger, an internationally leading historian on the subject, makes it plain clear why the use of the term "university" with regard to non-European institutions of higher education is anachronistic and just careless terminology:
No one today would dispute the fact that universities, in the sense in which the term is now generally understood, were a creation of the Middle Ages, appearing for the first time between the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. It is no doubt true that other civilizations, prior to, or wholly alien to, the medieval West, such as the Roman Empire, Byzantium, Islam, or China, were familiar with forms of higher education which a number of historians, for the sake of convenience, have sometimes describes as universities. Yet a closer look makes it plain that the institutional reality was altogether different and, no matter what has been said on the subject, there is no real link such as would justify us in associating them with medieval universities in the West. Until there is definite proof to the contrary, these latter must be regarded as the sole source of the model which gradually spread through the whole of Europe and then to the whole world. We are therefore concerned with what is indisputably an original institution, which can only be defined in terms of a historical analysis of its emergence and its mode of operation in concrete circumstances. (Verger, Jacques: "Patterns", in: Ridder-Symoens, Hilde de (ed.): A History of the University in Europe. Vol. I: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 2003, ISBN 978-0-521-54113-8, pp. 35–76 (35))
This means the POV and the OR rather lies with those who coin madrasas as "universities" even though both are historically and conceptually unrelated. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 13:21, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
@ Athenean, sure, here are sources for al-Azhar:
Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the oldest continuously operating institution of higher religous learning in the world, is not considered a state university though it is piblic. Al-Azhar University was established in 970 C.E. as a school of Islamic studies
Situated in Cairo and formerly also located with the great al-Azhar Mosque, this is the oldest and still the most important Islamic university in the world. Al-Azhar University has taught Islamic law, theology, and Arabic for more than 1,000 years. The first recorded seminar was held in 975, when chief justice Abu El-Hassan sat in the courtyard of the university and, reading from a book on jurisprudence written by his father, instructed students in the intricacies of Shiite law.
The first prayers were held in the mosque in 972, and in 989 it acquired the stats of a college with the appointment of thirty-five scholars to teach the Isma'ili Shi'a theology to which the Fatimids adhered.
I have some more (I wrote (largely) al-Azhar Mosque) but I'll have to go through them to see which deals with the university and which deal with the history of the mosque exclusively. That will take some time. nableezy - 18:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 18:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)It is no doubt true that other civilizations, prior to, or wholly alien to, the medieval West, such as the Roman Empire, Byzantium, Islam, or China, were familiar with forms of higher education which a number of historians, for the sake of convenience, have sometimes describes as universities. Yet a closer look makes it plain that the institutional reality was altogether different and, no matter what has been said on the subject, there is no real link such as would justify us in associating them with medieval universities in the West.
Thy topic has been discussed to death and well beyond (see the very extensive archive); Gun Powder Ma is entirely correct. Jonathan A Jones ( talk) 19:37, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Some additional sources:
Ednan Aslan is a University Professor at the University of Vienna in the Institute for Islamic Religious Education
The Muslim community maintained, favoured, and organized the institutions for higher education that became the new centres for the diffusion of Islamic knowledge. These centres were places where teachers and students of that time would meet and also where all intellectuals would gather and take part in extremely important scientific debates. It is not a coincidence that around the 9th centurey the first university in the world, the Qarawiyyin University in Fez, was established in the Muslim world followed by az-Zaytuna in Tunis and Al-Azhar in Cairo. The university model, that in the West was widespread starting only from the 12th century, had an extraordinary fortune and was spread throughout the Muslim world at least until the colonial period.
Jack Goldstone is a professor in the School of Public Policy at George Mason University
Islamic scientists and scholars developed the first universities as centers for scholarship in North Africa and Egypt; the universities of Al-Azhar in Cairo, founded in AD 988, and of Al-Karaouine in Fez (Morocco), founded in 859, are the world's oldest ongoing universities
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help)I again ask if anybody can honestly claim that the view that al-Karaouine and al-Azhar were not founded as universities, and are among the "oldest universities in continuous operation" is not a significant view that [has] been published in reliable source? nableezy - 15:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#List_of_oldest_universities nableezy - 18:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I dont think anybody has disputed that there are several sources that say that the university is a uniquely European innovation. What you do not seem to get however is that other reliable sources take a different view, and that per NPOV Wikipedia must include that view as well. Here are two:
The Muslim community maintained, favoured, and organized the institutions for higher education that became the new centres for the diffusion of Islamic knowledge. These centres were places where teachers and students of that time would meet and also where all intellectuals would gather and take part in extremely important scientific debates. It is not a coincidence that around the 9th centurey the first university in the world, the Qarawiyyin University in Fez, was established in the Muslim world followed by az-Zaytuna in Tunis and Al-Azhar in Cairo. The university model, that in the West was widespread starting only from the 12th century, had an extraordinary fortune and was spread throughout the Muslim world at least until the colonial period.
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help)Universities operate in the world of post-compulsory educaiton. While educating young people has never been their only function it has, for almsot every university, been the most significant of their activities, providing progression from schoold to, for most student, their final stage of formal education. But while school education is compulsory to some level in every country of the world, progression to university has never been compulsory. The first university was established in Fez, Morocco in the night century AD, and the oldest university in the UK is the University of Oxford whose origins can be traced back to 1167.
nableezy - 23:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This is really a simple black-and-white answer: the university is a distinctly European institution. Al-Azhar is a venerable, ancient institution of higher learning, but was not designated a university until the 1950s. Therefore, it does not belong in this article.
My suggestion, then, is twofold:
Not about "white people" or "brown people". If you're gonna include Madrassas, then you'd also have to include Plato's Academy, Taoist and Hindu monasteries in China and India, etc.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.218.67.253 ( talk) 01:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The Catholic University of Louvain, founded in Mechlin (Malines - Mechelen) in 1834 by the bisshops of Belgium don't have any historical links with the old abolished university of Louvain. Several rules of the Belgian Courts, of Cassation and Appel of Belgium, forbide the identification of the Catholic University with the Old University : "L'université catholique de Louvain ne peut être considérée comme continuant l'ancienne université de Louvain; et lorsqu'un acte de fondation a désigné pour collateur un professeur de cette ancienne université, il y a lieu d'y pourvoir par le gouvernement", (Table générale alphabétique et chronologique de la Pasicrisie Belge contenant la jurisprudence du Royaume de 1814 à 1850, Bruxelles, 1855, p. 585, colonne 1, alinea 2. And : Bulletin Usuel des Lois et Arrêtés, 1861, p.166.). To see also this rule of the Cour d'Appel of 1844: La Belgique Judiciaire, 28 july 1844 n° 69, p. 1 : "Cour d’Appel de Bruxelles. Deuxième chambre. L'université libre de Louvain ne représente pas légalement l’antique université de cette ville. Attendu que cette université (l’ancienne Université de Louvain), instituée par une bulle papale, de concert avec l'autorité souveraine, formait un corps reconnu dans l'État, ayant différentes attributions, dont plusieurs même lui étaient déléguées par le pouvoir civil; Attendu que ce corps a été supprimé par les lois de la république française; Attendu que l'université existant actuellement à Louvain ne peut être considérée comme continuant celle qui existait en 1457, ces deux établissemens ayant un caractère bien distinct, puisque l'université actuelle, non reconnue comme personne civile, n'est qu'un établissement tout-à-fait privé, résultat de la liberté d'enseignement , en dehors de toute action du pouvoir et sans autorité dans l'État...".-- 94.108.133.78 ( talk) 22:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
There is no University of Paris in continuous operation. Why, then, is it on this list? The University of Paris was disbanded by Napoleon. It was only re-established decades after Napoleon, and then it was dissolved in the 1960s/70s. It should be removed from the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.69.92 ( talk) 04:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
It is stated in the introduction "Other institutions of higher learning, like those of ancient Greece, ancient Rome, Byzantium, ancient China, ancient India, the Arab World, are not included in this list due to their cultural, historical and structual dissimilarities from the medieval European university from which the modern university evolved.[5][6][7]"
Therefore, I think it is better to update the topic name for a better representation. For example, List of oldest christian universities in continuous operation or List of oldest universities in Medieval Europe continuous operation or any suitable clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abudy8 ( talk • contribs) 18:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
I hope the title can accurately reflect the content and be changed to "List of oldest modern European universities in continuos operation. It is subtly hostile (see micro-aggression) to dismiss real universities as illegitimate based off of ONE extraordinary nationalistic and biased definition of what a university is. Just because the italians put a word the current day english term for university "a community of teachers and scholars," it may have just been their view of already established universities. That Italian university never intended nor claimed to be the first ever enlightened community of teachers and scholars, but instead, built their foundation on the example of previous established universities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.173.24 ( talk) 15:23, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not so much puzzled as appalled by the lack of arabic universities. A lot of the criteria for considering the university a university only refer to the peculiar political status of christianity in medieval Europe and the dual legal system: this could not exist in countries which had a singular legal system to begin with. Medieval european universities also lacked standards of examination (this has been touched already), and a lot of the universities listed on this list were only theological schools when they were founded, which makes them no different from a madrassah. Both the muslim and catholic academic systems were largely mired in the same sterile scholastics anyway, there's no real continuity between the modern, post enlightenment university and the medieval scholae, aside from the fact that a handful are in the same buildings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Note that the Rüegg quote is about enlightenment academia and the 18th century. Until the 17th-18th century, universities in the west were no different from the medieval muslim madrassah, probably even less intellectually engaging. There is a major breaking point brought about by the expansion of natural philosophy and the creation of the french and prussian schools which would inspire the modern academy. The university of Berlin was modelled after the french grandes écoles and the Polytechnique, not after the sterile aristocratic finishing schools that were Oxbridge. - Still the same IP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Also Al-Azhar's list of teaching subjects, caricaturally summed up as religious law, included everything that was taught in medieval universities except medicine, which only a few universities taught anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:40, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Both schools were removed for nonsensical, catholic centric understandings of the medieval west. It's very clear, when reading the blurbs on both these schools, that what they taught is the same thing taught in catholic universities (theology, law, rhetoric, philosophy, etc) but in a muslim context. The argument that they shouldn't be considered universities because there were multiple academic centers in a city like Baghdad is specious, but completely ignores that Baghdad was four times the size of the catholic world's largest cities, Venice and Paris. It also ignores the fact that some cities did have multiple universities: the modern university of Aberdeen results from the fusion of no less than three ancient universities (15th and 16th century foundations), for a city of maybe 5000 to 10000 souls at most at the end of the middle ages. - This is the last point of my rant and a repost of what I said in the ridiculous POV fork this article engendered. 216.252.76.143 ( talk) 23:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
→ http://www.harvard.edu/president/universities-changing-world
→″In India, dedication to global collaboration and to the breadth of the liberal arts has deep roots. The ancient university of Nalanda, which Harvard economist Amartya Sen is helping to revive, was a model center for the exchange of ideas and international collaboration 600 years before any similar institution appeared in the west. By the 7th century, Nalanda drew students from all parts of Asia, combining innovation in math, science, philosophy, and the arts with Buddhist studies and applied fields that included health care, medicine, engineering, and architecture. We might say that India, in an earlier globalizing era, invented the kind of higher education we still aspire to.″ 90.207.74.73 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
This article is insanely POV, people can try and hide behind some definition of a university that basically ignores anything that isn't European, but its pretty clear someone has an agenda to push. Disgraceful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.143.5.160 ( talk) 12:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Just pointing out that the view of universities as being exclusively European was recently criticized by an article published on the United Nations website as "narrow" and "Eurocentric":
Also, UNESCO seems to recognize that the world's oldest university is found in Morocco. Dont bash me for trying to change the definition of "university", Im just highlighting what the U.N. seems to say. The Washington Post says that the University of Karueein is the oldest existing, and continually operating university in the world. Even Guinness World Records doesn't recognize the University of Bologna as the world's oldest university in the world, only oldest in Europe:
- A1candidate ( talk) 23:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
See the views of experts. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 15:03, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Since you cite WP:DUE, why should an institition which is not accepted as an university by the vast majority of sources, and the more scholarly at that, be included right up in the lead? Isn't this rather very much a case of WP:undue then?
Aside, singling out an institution which is not treated in the article does not comply with WP:Lead which clearly specifies that the lead only summarizes contents. There is no Lex Al-Karaouinensis in the guidelines which warrants an exception. On this basis alone Al-Karaouine has to be removed from the lead.
The reality is the university of Al-Karaouine was founded as late as 1963. I have provided reliable, neutral sources stating this below. Furthermore, education at the Al-Karaouine mosque school was discontinued for three decades until its reopening in 1988, so it can be argued that the institution did not operate continuously since the 9th century, the exclusion criteria for this list. In fact, Al-Karaouine's claim can be refuted from multiple more angles, each of them as viable as the other, which I present below. Most of the quotes are taken from internationally recognized authorities in the field plus renowned specialist encyclopedias, so source quality is very high indeed.
As a compromise though, to show goodwill and make people happy so that we can move on, I move its mention to a footnote. Best Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 21:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Either Washington and Jefferson College should be removed from the list, as every reference I can find still refers to it as a college, or Hampden-Sydney College should be added because it is five years older, 1776. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.241.199.57 ( talk) 12:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The present-day University of Pec does not belong on this list, as it has only been in continuous operation since 1912, and in its present location since 1921. The original University of Pecs (founded 1367) was disbanded after the Ottoman conquest of Hungary in 1526; it was arguably revived in 1785 when Joseph II moved the Royal Academy from Gyor to Pec - although this was not technically a re-founding of Pec, but rather a relocation of an existing institute to the city of Pec, marking no institutional continuity with the medieval university. Moreover, the Royal Academy was returned to Gyor in 1802. The current University of Pec began as the University of Pozsony in 1912, and only moved to Pec in 1921, in the aftermath of the partition of Austria-Hungary. See the University of Pécs page for more on this. It is clear that the University of Pec has not been in "continuous operation" since 1367. Moreover, there is no evidence of official, institutional, or even geographical continuity between the original University and its modern namesake; the only thing they have in common is the name itself. Thus the University of Pec does not meet the criteria for inclusion on this list. Barring any substantive objections, I intend to remove Pec from this list in the near future. 24.60.0.22 ( talk) 21:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
The following scholarly sources, most of them expert historians and specialized encyclopedias, demonstrate that
Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 21:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Views of Expert historians and specialized encyclopedias
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Expert historians and specialized encyclopediasThe medieval Christian origin of the university
The difference(s) between the university and the madrasa
The first universities all in medieval Europe
Al-Karaouine was a madrasa, not a universityWhat is a madrasa?
Madrasas had no institutional structure, no curriculum, no regular examination and no system of degrees
Al-Karaouine was founded or run as a madrasa, mosque school or mosque, not a university
Al-Karaouine was transformed only in modern times into a university.
Al-Karaouine was not among the first madrasas, therefore it cannot have been the first university, even if one considers a madrasa a university
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Al-Karaouine is not "special case", but its claim relies on two assumptions: A. That a madrasah is a university and B. That Al-Karaouine is the oldest madrasah. Both claims have been refuted by a multitude of reliable sources above. A. is, more over, rebutted by the fact that WP has two distinct articles on them indicating that the consensus is these are two different institutions which we don't mix. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 18:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
The point Im trying to make is that a neutral article should take both sides into consideration especially when the opposing viewpoint is not a fringe theory:
"Some regard the University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco, which was founded in 859, to be the world's oldest continuously operating academic degree-granting higher education institution. Others cite the University of Nalanda in Bihar, India, founded in 427, as the oldest one. The first European university to be established was Bologna in 1088, then in 1167 the University of Oxford, followed by the University of Cambridge in 1209 and the University of Paris in 1231."
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Im not saying that the University of Bologna asserts a different viewpoint, but the fact that the University of Bologna does not even recognizes itself as the world's oldest university only underscores the point that this subject is controversial and both viewpoints should be respected. Note: Constructive discussion is welcome but personal attacks like these and these are extremly disruptive and I WILL it to a higher level if you do it again. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do expect you to discuss in a matured and civilized manner. - A1candidate ( talk) 07:28, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
These sources have the same flaws as the previous ones: lack of quality. They are very short, they don't define the subject (what do they mean with "university", a madrasa?) and they are not from experts on the history of the university. Besides, it has been many times pointed out that the scope of the topic is defined at university, not here. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 13:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Definition of a Madrasa, as quoted by Gun Powder Ma on May 31, 2013 (in German)
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In case you've somehow forgotten about your previous edit, take a look at this diff. I assume that you're able to comprehend German since you quoted this, but for the sake of all those who dont, the source tells us that:
I dont think its fair to argue that only institutions with a Christian heritage are allowed to be considered universities. Madrasas are not mosques, but they do grant doctorate titles and this is according to your sources - A1candidate ( talk) 19:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I have added a note at Talk:University about the apparent recent changes in the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of "University". This new definition appears to offer more scope for institutions that don't meet the characteristics of Medieval European universities.
Discussion of the implications for Wikipedia of this new definition can best be carried out there, rather than here. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 15:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
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