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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of List of Soviet Union divisions 1917–1945 was copied or moved into List of infantry divisions of the Soviet Union 1917–1957 with this edit on 23:23, 5 March 2008. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Why was this created?!-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
58th RD was indeed formed in Meleks in Transcaucasian MD, but as 2nd formation. This is a different unit to the 58th MtRD which was a part of 12th Army in Ukraine http://ww2doc.50megs.com/Issue36/Issue36_072.html -- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 03:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest that any list entry that has more then two lines is a candidate for an article stub?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 08:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Revert if you want to, but I have a real problem working with such long lists. -- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
May be I misunderstand the need for Lists.
Infantry divisions of the Soviet Union 1917–1957 probably needs to start with a "List of", however, this is not the real issue. The real issue is that I for one tend to look at larger formations such as Armies and Fronts, and military districts that these divisions were a part of, and also the context of their activities, the operations.
I had decided not to contribute to the list because it is difficult. Why is it difficult? Because, inconveniently, the Soviet Army did not assign divisions to higher formations in numerical sequence! Not only that, but succeeding formations of same numerical designation were liable to serve with different higher formation!
These newly formed divisions had their own combat histories, with the consequences that when I do come across data on the division NUMBER, it is unlikely to be at the same time as I come across data on ALL manifestations of that unit NUMBER. This means that the access to the list for the purpose of expanding it is discontinuous. Not only that, but the length of the list, and the section-less and break-less formatting provide for difficult navigation once I'm there.
Besides this, I fail to see the need for redundancy in having summaries of articles a click away!
Another problem is that the list actually fails to describe the one thing that serves as its defining commonality, Red Army, and later, Soviet rifle troops. Neither Soviet nor 'rifle divisions' are even mentioned in the article on infantry the current list is linked to! I appreciate the work done my User:W. B. Wilson, I really do, but it seems to me that a substantial rethinking and reorganisation of the article/list is required, something I did not intend to address just yet due to other commitments.
This is not helped when one considers that Poirier and Conner decided to order divisional military district assignments by alphabetical order of their place of formation! Unfortunately the cities in Soviet Union are not distributed among their regional administrative divisions in alphabetical order either! This presents a wider problem of linking articles dealing with evolution of Imperial Russian, Soviet and Russian Federation's militaries historically due to this arbitrary alpha-numeric serialisation unrelated to actual administrative of geographic reality.
However, since Kirill had made a proposal, I would suggest going with a historical structure and using:
The benefit there is that since most editors edit based on context and not numerical sequence, as information comes to hand on the unit's participation in any of the operations in other articles, they can be added to unit article (as Buckshot06 does now) since finding a number on a non-sequential list page is easy with basic Edit/Find function in the browser. The military district sections would also help to avoid the 10s or 50s sections that have no meaning, and provide context and interlinking elsewhere. I would suggest retaining the article though, and not as a list, but as a place to describe the Soviet rifle forces of the period before their conversion to motor-rifle form. This expansion on the nature of Soviet rifle troops will compensate for the reduction in size through creation of stubs from already available data, and make for a much more useful article that actually fills a current 'hole'.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Buckshot06, you do not have to English-afy everything. There is already a set up disambig page for the Narodnoe Opolcheniye and that is how the troops have been known since before the Russian Empire. This is also their most used name in English.
It is also confusing because the military police in Russian is voyennaya militsia. I'm loath to undo your edits yet again.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record, a literal translation of opolchenye
is derived from o-pol(k)-cheniye, to allocate to a polk, i.e. to regimentalize the volunteers (narod), so militia is wrong, because militia in England is a selective registred preallocated system of voluntary recruitment and opolcheniye is not at all.
Soviet Military Law and Administration - Page 195 by Harold Joseph Berman, Miroslav Kerner - Military law - 1955 - 208 pages Citizens in units of the people-in-arms (narodnoe opolchenie) were declared subject to the Statute on Military Crimes and under the jurisdiction of military ..
Russia at War, 1941-1945 - Page 300 by Alexander Werth - World War, 1939-1945 - 1964 - 1100 pages By July 10, the first opolcheniye division was sent to the front, ... These three opolcheniye divisions were rushed to the so-called Luga defence line, ..
900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad - Page 680
by Harrison Salisbury - History - 1983
... Opolcheniye Leningrado; and Karasev. CHAPTER 20. THE ENEMY AT THE GATES The
description of Smolny is based on GN ...
Imperial and Soviet Russia: Power, Privilege, and the Challenge of Modernity by David Christian - Communism - 1997 - 478 pages Page 333 He also ordered the formation of militia (opolcheniye) units. A Soviet novel written by Konstantin Simonov in the late 1950s gives a vivid description of ...
T.L.S. - Page 230
Music History and criticism Periodicals - 1963
Both the Moscow opolcheniye monograph and the Sebastopol monograph are ...
The story of the Moscow opolcheniye — those 140000 or 150000 civilians who ..
The Eastern Front, 1914-1917 - Page 168
by Norman Stone - History - 1998 - 352 pages
The disintegration of III Army in Galicia was similarly written down by its chief
of staff, and corps commanders, to the opolcheniye's surrendering in ...
The Golden Ring: Cities of Old Russia - Page 178 by Vadim Evgenʹevich Gippenreĭter, Alekseĭ I. Komech - Social Science - 1991 After a siege lasting six months the patriotic opolcheniye (national popular army) stormed the monastery and expelled the Poles - thanks mainly to the ...
The Aspirations of Bulgaria - Page 101
by Stojan Protić - Balkan Peninsula History War of 1912-1913 - 1915
Complementary units, the Serbian third ban or the Bulgarian Opolcheniye, are not
included in the stipulated effective. ...
Soldiers of the Tsar: Army and Society in Russia, 1462-1874 - Page 8
by John L. H. Keep - Social Science - 1985 - 432 pages
... the militia (opolcheniye), or the rewards system, which included the bestowal
of remarkably lavish gifts on individual servitors by the tsar, ...
The Slavonic and East European Review - Page 358
by Modern Humanities Research Association - Europe Economic conditions Periodicals - 1943
... for the abysmally low standard of efficiency of the levy (opolcheniye) provided
by the service gentry, still the backbone of the Russian armed forces. ...
Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb - Page 43 by Richard Rhodes - History - 1995 - 731 pages ... as coming from him; but the things of which he spoke — opolcheniye [ie, civilian reserves], partisans, occupied territories, meant the end of illusions. ...
Readings in Russian History - Page 197 by Sidney Harcave - Soviet Union - 1962 In 1611, largely as a result of their activities, a popular levy (opolcheniye) was formed to liberate the country from the invader. ...
VOKS Bulletin - Page 21
by Vsesoi︠u︡znoe obshchestvo kulʹturnoĭ svi︠a︡zi s zagranit︠s︡eĭ (Soviet Union) - Soviet Union - 1933
... chief of the opolcheniye (people's guards) Dmitri Pozharsky. ...
You like Oxford, so here is one from that "stable"
The New Oxford Companion to Music
by Denis Arnold, Percy Alfred Scholes - Music - 1983 - 2017 pages
Page 1600
... notably his four-act Ilya bogatyr ('Ilya the Bogatyr', 1807) and the two- act
Ivan Susanin (composed 1815, performed 1822). Like his ballet Opolcheniye, ...
Here is one from before the Revolution
The Russian Year-book - Page 77
by Howard Percy Kennard, Kennard, Howard Percy, d. 1915, Netta Peacock - Russia - 1911
... and the war strength about fear millions, but this figure includes garrison
troops, and the Opolcheniye* (now numbering about a million) ...
A World in Flames: A History of World War II - Page 93 by Martha Byrd - World War, 1939-1945 - 1970 - 356 pages With little training or equipment, these Opolcheniye, or "home guard" battalions, died by the thousands.12 But Moscow held. ...
Selected Philosophical Works - Page 621
by
Alexander Herzen - Philosophy, Russian - 1956 - 629 pages
1611), one of the leaders of the first Opolcheniye (1610-1611) (People's Volunteer
Army) against the Polish invaders. P. 569 275 Figner, ...
Hope and Glory - Page 238
by Leslie Arlen - Fiction - 1982 - 386 pages
So what we are having to use is the opolcheniye — what you might call our national
guard, eh? — the factory regiments. But these are only part-time soldiers ...
Soviet Literature
1947
Page 195
... opolcheniye (a kind of home guard-TV.), the "communist volunteers," as he
called them, often insufficiently trained and under-armed, who nevertheless ...
The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians
by Sadie, Stanley
Page 39
... which was first performed on 27 May 1812. The same year, inspired by the war.
Cavos composed a nationalistic ballet entitled Opolchenie ili lyubov' k Otechestvu (1812) a ballet
In French
La grande histoire de la Seconde Guerre mondiale. - Page 74 by Pierre Montagnon - 1993 La guerre de partisans, la formation de milices populaires (opolcheniye) dans les villes menacées, toutes les formules doivent être utilisées pour repousser ...
D'une Russie à l'autre: vie et mort de l'URSS - Page 335
by Jean Elleinstein - Soviet Union - 1992 - 763 pages
Des bataillons ouvriers (opolcheniye) furent constitués dans les grandes villes,
à Moscou, Léningrad, Odessa, Kiev, etc. Des milices se formèrent pour la ...
Les Grands dossiers du Troisième Reich - Page 270
by Jacques Robichon - Germany - 1969 - 499 pages
En tout, vingt-cinq bataillons de travailleurs participèrent à la défense de
Moscou, sans compter les régiments d'opolcheniye, les bataillons de femmes,
A History of the Soviet Army - Page 223
by Michel Garder - Soviet Union - 1966 - 226 pages
Odessa, 43, 104, 138 OGPU, 36, 77, 78, 80, 94 Okrug (see Regions, military)
Opolcheniye, 19 Ordzhonikidze, GK, 77, 86, 94 and n. ...
Variant spelling
The Commander: A Life of Barclay de Tolly - Page 181 by Michael Josselson, Diana Josselson - Biography & Autobiography - 1980 - 288 pages (One-third was made up of opolchenie, many of whom were still armed only with pikes; their officers led or, rather, drove them with curses and knouts. ...
The Siege of Leningrad: Epic of Survival - Page 60 by Alan Wykes - Saint Petersburg (Russia) - 1968 - 160 pages About a hundred thousand of the opolchenie never returned. They were defending the city ... Unlike the bulk of the opolchenie they had specialized training. ...
A History of Warfare - Page 221
by John Keegan - History - 1994 - 496 pages
That of the Cossacks was one; another was that of the opolchenie, ... Inadvertently,
he admitted the part the opolchenie played in driving the Grand Army's ...
The Times History of the War
[2]- Page 503
by Ian Drury, Times (London, England) - World War, 1914-1918 - 1914
The " Opolchenie " included all men fit to bear arms from their 21st to the ...
Except for the above-mentioned first four contingents the Opolchenie could ...
The Times History and Encyclopedia and History of the War' was a weekly publication by one of Great Britian's most reknowned and respected publishers.
Memorandum - - Page 31 by Rand Corporation - Research - 1961 In both emergencies 26 The parallel between the British Local Defence Volunteers (later Home Guard), armed with shotguns and old rifles, and the opolchenie, ...
Odessa, 1941-1944: A Case Study of Soviet Territory Under Foreign Rule - Page 31 by Alexander Dallin, Larry L. Watts - History - 1998 - 296 pages The registration of volunteers and conscription of the opolchenie were entrusted to the oblast and city committees of the Party.4 Full-scale mobilization of ...
The Windsor Magazine: An Illustrated Monthly for Men and Women - Page 608 1914 Then fifteen years in the reserve and five years in the Opolchenie. Into the Opolchenie, of which there are two categories, enter also the most fit of those ...
Bulletin of the New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox and Tilden Foundations
by New York Public Library - Bibliography - 1970
Page 50
... opolchenie ... opolchenie. ...
Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945 by Catherine Merridale - History - 2006 - 480 pages Page 408 4, part 1, p. 56. 13. Overy, Russia's War, p. 118. 14. AE Gordon, "Moskovskoe narodnoe opolchenie 1941 goda glazami ...
The World's Work ...: A History of Our Time - Page 486
by Walter Hines Page, Arthur Wilson Page - 1914
... difficulty in German Army 24 Oriental trend ol Germany 133 Opolchenie.
See Russia, Army. ...
The New York Times Current History - Page 329 by New York Times Company - World War, 1914-1918 - 1917 The first of these measures relates to the conscription of the opolchenie of the second category — a measure adopted by all the belligerent countries, ...
Whirlwind by Joseph R. Garber - Fiction - 2005 - 404 pages Page 43 She drinks. There is nothing else she can do. He rambles on: a military family, through and through. First there were the opolchenie serfs pressed into ...
Report of the International Commission to Inquire Into the Causes and ...
by International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars, Nicholas Murray Butler, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Division of Intercourse and Education - Balkan Peninsula - 1914 - 413 pages
Page 76
A volunteer of the Macedonian legion (Opolchenie), who was previously known to
a member of the Commission as an honorable and truthful man, recounted the ...
The Re-shaping of the Far East
by Bertram Lenox Putnam Weale, Bertram Lenox Simpson - Eastern question (Far East) - 1905
Page 509
In war the total strength is approximately 4000000 trained men, whilst, by having
recourse to the " opolchenie" many millions more of partially trained and ...
Zhukov - Page 144 by Otto Preston Chaney - Biography & Autobiography - 1996 - 560 pages ... be relatively insensitive to German "wedge" tactics of the armored forces. By the middle of July stubborn defensive fighting (with volunteer opolchenie .
The Second World War: Europe and the Mediterranean - Page 123 by Thomas B. Buell, John H. Bradley, Jack W. Dice - History - 2002 - 448 pages ... and escarpment plus countless infantry trenches around the city.l24 The male citizens not engaged in war production served in hastily formed opolchenie ...
The art of warfare in the age of Napoleon - Page 203 by Gunther Erich Rothenberg - History - 1978 - 272 pages While some Russian troops, especially Lithuanians deserted, the great majority remained steadfast and a hastily mustered militia, the opolchenie, ...
Battle: A History of Combat and Culture (review) The Journal of Military History - Volume 68, Number 3, July 2004, pp. 943-945
The United Service
1904
Page 123
But in case of national emergency this force could be swelled to about 7500000
fighting men by the calling out of the Territorial Reserve and the Opolchenie ...
Writing the Siege of Leningrad: Women's Diaries, Memoirs, and Documentary Prose by Cynthia Simmons, Nina Perlina - History - 2002 - 304 pages ... volunteered for what eventually became known as the "people's militia" (narodnoe opolchenie). In some cases, people were under pressure to volunteer, ...
Russia as Seen and Described by Famous Writers
edited by Esther Singleton - Russia - 1904 - 361 pages
Page 357
... in the active army and six in the Zapas ; and in Caucasia, three years in the
active army and 15 in the Zapas. The Opolchenie is a reserve force of ...
Stalinism and Nazism: Dictatorships in Comparison - Page 192 by Ian Kershaw, Moshe Lewin - Political Science - 1997 - 381 pages Such losses amounted to 30 per cent of all ammunition and 50 per cent of all fuel and food reserves.32 The militia units (narodnoe opolchenie), for example, ...
Russia as I Know it - Page 91
by Harry De Windt - Soviet Union - 1917 - 232 pages
... on a war footing, to about 8000000 men, this number including the reserves,
but not the Cossacks or " Opolchenie " (a kind of "
Landsturm"), which may ...
The Foe Within: Fantasies of Treason And the End of Imperial Russia
by William C. Fuller - True Crime - 2006 - 304 pages
... and asked him for a posting to the opolchenie, or home guard. ...
The Russo-Japanese War: Reports from British Officers Attached to the ... - Page 298 by Great Britain War Office, Great Britain War Office. General Staff - Russo-Japanese War, 1904-1905 - 1908 At the end of August 25 battalions of Siberian Militia (Opolchenie) were en route for Manchuria to take the place of the Frontier Guards, who were to be ...
The Great War - Page 216
by William R. Griffiths, Thomas E. Griess - History - 2003 - 272 pages
Opolchenie. ...
The Russian Army of the Napoleonic Wars - Page 20 by Albert Seaton - History - 1979 - 48 pages In all the Russian Army in 1812 numbered 700000 men not including the Cossack hosts or the opolchenie, the home guard militia. In the early summer of 1812 ...
Where Nation-states Come from: Institutional Change in the Age of Nationalism - Page 252 by Philip G. Roeder - Political Science - 2007 - 417 pages ... narodnoe opolchenie," Pravda October 16, 1991, 1, 3; ...
FUBAR (F***ed Up Beyond All Recognition): Soldier Slang of World War II - Page 280
by Gordon L. Rottman - Language Arts & Disciplines - 2007 - 296 pages
... Members of the opolchenie (volunteer militia), aged 17-55, raised early in
the war to serve as last-ditch combat and labor units. ...
The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front, 22 June-August 1941 ... - Page 429
by David M. Glantz - History - 1993 - 511 pages
It shows Soviet formations raised from 22 June to 1 December 1941. The combat
power of those formations may have been minimal, for some were opolchenie ...
Storm of Steel: The Development of Armor Doctrine in Germany and the Soviet ... - Page 41
by Mary R. Habeck - History - 2003 - 309 pages
... opolchenie). Here again, only the infantry can be, inevitably, the main type
offeree in terms of both numbers and preparation...
[4]
The Russian empire, 1801-1917 - Page 752 by Hugh Seton-Watson - History - 1988 - 840 pages ... anniversary of the invasion, a collection of documents relating to the mobilization of the Russian people to meet it, entitled Narodnoe opolchenie v
The War of the Rising Sun and Tumbling Bear: A Military History of the Russo ... - Page 19
by Richard Michael Connaughton - History - 1988 - 300 pages
After eighteen years he passed into the Opolchenie or militia. There were few
exemptions from military duty, although Cossacks, Finns and Christians in the ...
The Encyclopedia of Nineteenth-Century Land Warfare: An Illustrated World View by Byron Farwell - History - 2001 - 900 pages Page 119 On 3 September 10000 Russian opolchenie [qv] from Moscow began work on fortifications. On 5 September the cavalry of French Marshal Joachim Murat [qv] ...
Report of the Special Commission on Military Education and Reserve. December ... by Robert Lovejoy Raymond, Walton Atwater Green - Military education - 1915 - 76 pages Page 93 The Opolchenie, or territorial army, is divided into two classes or bans. The first includes not only the trained men who have passed through the first line ...
British Military Intelligence in the Crimean War, 1854-1856
by Stephen M. Harris - History - 1999 - 182 pages
11 By September five of Russia's six infantry corps were in the Crimea and the
opolchenie (temporary militias composed of mostly peasant 'volunteers') was ...
Captured Soviet Generals: the fate of Soviet generals captured by the ... - Page 41 by Aleksander A. Maslov, David M. Glantz, Harold Steven Orenstein - History - 2001 - 329 pages Pashko, Narodnoe opolchenie ...
The Horizon History of Russia - Page 123 by Ian Grey - Russia - 1970 - 404 pages ... to lead what became the second opolchenie. In Moscow Cossacks held the Polish occupation forces under siege in the Kremlin. ...
I'll end with British Documents on the Origins of the War, 1898-1914 - Page 263 by Great Britain Foreign Office, George Peabody Gooch, Harold William Vazeille Temperley - World War, 1914-1918 - 1926 In Moscow and Kieff 1910 to 1913 classes Ban of Opolchenie taken in addition, bnt not here as yet. Reported that 200000 reservists taken in Petersburg. ...
This ought to be enough. So you see, some choose to translate the term because they need to show what kind of troops Opolchenye are since English readers understand the hussars to be light cavalry, and the cuirassiers to be heavy cavalry although neither are English words. The reason Opolchenye is not very common is because they were only called out four times in 200 years, 1812, 1855, 1916 and 1941. However, that it no reason to English-ise them as you would put it. This is a reference work, not a place to display simplified vocabulary.
Oh fuck. Why am I arguing this?! Any idiot can write
Russian people's militia, or Battle of Berlin! The point of being a reference is to actually inform the reader of something thay can not know themselves! If Buckshot can do a better job on the Eastern Front articles, let him. I have had jack of all these "discussions". You also Philip if you are reading. There is no way of writing on a non-English language subject without transliterating some terms which will never have a meaning in English because they are foreign to the culture, language and history of English-language societies. If you can not deal with that, then the readers who may want to know about the subject will have to wait in ignorance until somone else has the initiative to continue. Yes, I take ownership of articles, but in real life editing, not like the play-editing here, this is expected. Here, some really fucked up "policy and conventions" dictate change in facts because one individual somewhere in the world deems it to be so based on what? So here is the deal, I will edit the articles as sources I bring suggest I should, and according to best accepted academic standard. I will contact authors if there is a problem, and if they fail to reply, they will be removed from the references. If I am reverted I will immediatelly take the issue to arbitration although I know that if there were any admins who had a clue about the eastern front they would not allow the sort of rubbish that was there to remain--
mrg3105 (
comms) ♠♥♦♣
12:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I touched on this before, and will have to again. The list of divisions you have is inadequate for reference when I write articles on operations. I have been putting off saying this, but there is no way of saying it any other way. You need to appreciate that a division 123 (Ist formation) is not same as division 123 (IInd formation) with very few rare exceptions. I can not use the list you have as it is now because in Perecheni the units are completely different, including the subunits. You may argue with me, but I can not change the way Soviet General Staff worked. That is all I can say. As I get further into the articles, I will need to split off different formations of the same numbered units. Please, I do not expect any help from you, but do not hinder me either. I am not trying to prove you wrong every time. Its just how things are, and you have a few things to learn, and I have had more years then you have had at it, and that's all there is to it. You can learn, or you can obstinately !@#$ up what I'm trying to do. The only one who suffers is the Wikipedia user.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 14:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC) PS. I do not mind if you or anyone else fixes up the few spelling of minor grammatical mistakes I make, but I usually choose my words carefully, so if you are not sure it is not either of those, please ask me before correcting.
A bit of history - Narodnoe Opolcheniye was so used for political purposes when Moscow assumed the leading role in the 16th Century Russia, before there was a Russia. It sought to emphasise the Tsar as the "father" of all of Russians, that included other principalities that sought to remain independent. Before the unification of Russians under the leadership of Moscow, each city and town had its own Opolcheniye not named Narodnoe, but named after the city or town, so Novgorodskoye Opolcheniye, Suzdalskoye Opolcheniye, Vladimirskoye Opolcheniye, etc. Maybe someone will write articles for them also one day. They were not militia either. When attacked, the city/town people would simply arm themselves and gather into a polk, which is translated in its modern meaning as a regiment. However, this was not always so. For example in the Slovo o polku Igoreve it refers to the entire force led on a campaign. Dal' vol.III, pp.262, gives other usages such as rat', voisko, opolcheniye, tolpa and vataga. It just happens that some words were retained and some were not. Even if one considers that the units that are the subject of the article were gathered into regiments from volunteers, this still does not warrant the use of peoples' militia, because there are many so-named forces in history and across the globe.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"Narodnoe" means "people's". "Opolcheniye" means "militia". There is no real argument here. Even your description of "opolcheniye" above fits the English term "militia". -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"Opolcheniye" is "militia", direct translation. The fact that historical militias in England were more organized than the WW2 Soviet militia is completely and utterly irrelevant. The fact that the article had a wrong title for a long period of time is equally irrelevant. The Cossacks, Hussars and the Landwehr? To my knowledge, a direct translation was not possible (I do not speak Hungarian). -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 13:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Here's the thing: even if I did not know what a militia is, a ridiculous notion, I would still not need to look it up. All I need to know is that "opolcheniye" is directly translated into "militia", and that I most certainly do. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 14:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The term "militia" is derived from Latin roots:
- miles /miːles/ : soldier [1]
- -itia /iːtia/ : a state, activity, quality or condition of being [2] [3]
- militia /mil:iːtia/: Military service [4]
In English, the word "militia" dates to 1590 when it was recorded in a book by Sir John Smythe, Certain Discourses Military with the meanings: a military force; a body of soldiers and military affairs; a body of military discipline [5]
I do not think it is necessary for you to share your revelations, as I do not see the point. The English translation of "Opolcheniye" would still be "militia" even if you wrote up the entire history of the word's use and its military meaning. This is why I do not see the point of this discussion. Anyway, I responded to the RfC, I'm done here. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 14:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Webster’s 1 records 90 words of Russian borrowings, though some are mis-etymologised. This is the case of caftan (Turkic), protopope (Greek), shaman (Tungus) or ukase (French). This group also includes such words as britska, czarina or Kremlin, here derived from Russian, which cannot be treated as an etymologically proven fact. Webster’s 1 admits into its pages three ephemeral words, i.e., mykiss, nerka and opolchenie, which are not found in the subsequent editions. Webster’s 2 is the largest dictionary of English and, because of its immense coverage of both current as well as obsolete words, was for years regarded by many—even after the appearance of the third edition in 1961—as the dictionary par excellence (Landau 2001: 86). There are 291 words of Russian provenience in it, and the number visibly surpasses that of Webster’s 1, which should not be surprising. On the one hand, the 1917 revolution and World War I drew public attention, which clearly intensified the borrowing from Russian into English. On the other hand, the dictionary followed less restrictive inclusion criteria, so a number of hapax legomena (e.g., chort, izvozchik, korova or molka) were allowed into its wordlist. Moreover, several words in Webster’s 2 have brand-new etymologies (caftan, Calmucks, liman, parka) or slightly modified forms, e.g., Dukhoborts (Dukhobors in Webster’s 1), Ivan (Ivan Ivanovitch in Webster’s 1) or plet (plitt in Webster’s 1). The purpose of Webster’s 3 has to record the standard English vocabulary of predominantly the 20th century, so all items that had gone out of use by the mid-18th century were dropped. The dictionary, in Quirk’s words ‘a meticulously complete register of English vocabulary’ (qtd. in Morton 1994: 197), comprised approximately 450,000 entries in a single volume. It comes as a surprise that Russian borrowings recorded in Webster’s 3 are as numerous as in Webster’s 2, even though the Soviet Union, with all the intricacies of its political and social system, aroused great interest in the American media. However, though the figures are almost the same, there are considerable differences in the selection of entries, because a number of outdated words (e.g., besprizorni, garnetz, nefte or sotnia) were left out, while new borrowings (e.g., apparatchik, chum, makhorka or shashlik) were included in the revision process for Webster’s 3. Interestingly, some of the newcomers (e.g., blin, chinovnik, gusli or kovsh) are by no means new, since they were attested in English texts as early as the 19th century. Three loans which appeared in Webster’s 1 but not in Webster’s 2, i.e., Molokane, osseter and polynia, were readmitted into Webster’s 3 (as Molokan, osetra and polynya, respectively).
I'm not sure why you are insistent that everything has to be translated into English based on this awareness-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I was asked to comment at my talk. This is not the subject of my expertize, so I am simply trying to make sense of what I read and apply my understanding of WP conventions. Foreign loanwords should be avoided, when possible, but sometimes they must be used. Whether it was to be avoided here is the question we must answer. If the term's particular translation has a clear prevalence in English sources, we must translate it the same way. Glantz is clearly an example of a respected source. But Glantz alone does not demonstrate the prevalence. If other major sources use a different wording, we have no universally accepted in English texts term. As a non-native speaker, it is hard for me to judge whether Militia is the best translation indeed. It relays the meaning all right but Mrg argues that it may be misleading. I see this point too. So, I cannot state my clear preference but one thing is clear to me. Glantz alone, no matter how respectable an author, does not get to define the universal English usage. So, unless other sources are brought up, we should not use the argument of prevalence. -- Irpen 00:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC) small> 01:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This reminds me the debate about Oblast. In Ukrainian articles the idea of using province to refer to the administrative unit (it is also called this way in Russian and slightly different in Belarusian) was initially popular. We ended up deciding against it because oblast is a very specific type of the administrative unit while "province" is too general and inexact. So we use: "XXX was born in the city of XXX of [[Kiev Oblast]] ''([[oblast|province]]''), Ukraine and from that point on use Oblast throughout. For Russian Voyevodstvo and Polish wojewodztwo the anglicized term Voivodship does exist, but Oblast is variously translated as province, region, etc. So, there is no established term.
Perhaps, if Opolchenie being such a narrow and specific type of the military formation of people that anglicized militia is too inexact warrants to use a loanword? It is up to experts to decide on this but it's possible. If the anglicized version prevailed in English usage, that would have ended the debate. I don't see this being demonstrated, Glantz notwithstanding. Despite he is a very respectable author, he does not get to define the universal usability if others do not follow suit. -- Irpen 02:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This conversation has now moved on to Talk:Narodnoe Opolcheniye#Requested move -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 09:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Mrg3105 has asked that a merger be considered between this page, the infantry divisions 1917-57, and the original page, divisions of the USSR 1917-45. This page is at ~150 k at the moment, the other being 60k ish, and size was the reason why the pages were split originally. I'll find the original talkpage discussion on it. (It was split; it's here and here) There is also ongoing material needed to be added from the 'Higher Numbered Rifle Divisions' article from the Journal of Slavic Military Studies which I've been reluctant to keep adding while the article was unstable. This will see this page grow still further. In summary, because both pages are large and have good potential to grow larger still, I do not believe they should be merged. Comments and disagreement welcome however. Regards to all, Buckshot06( prof) 14:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
(od) Would you object, then, if I removed the material until you find the references? No question of the name - that'll be decided at the RM - but this page is almost 100% referenced and solid, apart from that section. The number of half-worked-on pages you have on your list is very long, and I'd like to keep this page up to scratch until you find the references to back it. Whoops, or better still, insert the links here, and I can use machine translation etc to set up translations of titles, whatever - then all you'd need to do is provide the sites. Buckshot06( prof) 10:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
From my talk page:
Hi, Mrg. From my background Narodnoye Opolcheniye seems to be infinitely better than People's Militia - it was indeed was not a Militia in American sense. They were regular conscripted army formations albeit much worse equipped and trained, with the history of the term going back to medieval times. We have many Russian loan words like Spetznaz, Smersh and Oblast, I would think Narodnoye Opolcheniye can go the same way. On the other hand I guess that an ordinary reader of Wikipedia who does not know Russian would be taken aback by this mountain of characters that does not seem even form something pronounceable. I think it is important to give the reader at least some anchor with recognizable words. This, I put in the parenthesis (People's Militia) in the section's title and the first time the word is used so the reader can understand what is going on.
Since English is my second language I am trying to avoid all the copyediting and grammatic disputes assuming that native speakers are better than me in this regard. Still if People Militia will be chosen as the best name of the divisions I think we need a sentence explainging that they were not militia. Alex Bakharev ( talk) 02:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
(od) Your source page does not back this up in the case of the Leningrad force. The raising of the destroyer battalions was formalised by a city decree and the transformation of the battalions into a NO force was the result of appeals for volunteers by the Leningrad city authorities. Buckshot06( prof) 03:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
See also http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/archive/index.php/index.php?t-19725.html for other higher numbered Guards Rifle Divisions.
goes nowhere-- Shattered Wikiglass ( talk) 06:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
There were few caes of duplicating numbers for simultaneously existing division. What I remember:
2 Rifle Division (III) - reorganized from 2 ( former Odessa) Cavalry Division in Sevastopol in November 1941. On 29 January 1942 renamed 109 Rifle Division 2 Rifle Division (IV) - formed in Archangelk Military District in the end of 1941. Before 29.01.1941 the number was duplicate.
186 Rifle Division (I) - pre-war division, Ural military ditrict. 186 Rifle Division (II) - formed in Murmansk in September 1941 as Polar Rifle Division, on 28 September 1941 was renamed 186 RD. Only in June 1943 was renamed 205 Rifle Division. Till that time both division bore the same number.
1 Tank Division (I) - pre-war division, Leningrad military district. 1 Tank Division (II) - created by reorganizing 1 (Moscow) Motorized Division on 18 August 1941. On 22 September renamed 1 Guards Motorized Rifle Division. Between these dates two 1 Tank Divisions existed.
(Axis History Forum) Buckshot06 (talk) 09:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a useful list but it is let down by the quality of its citations.
The references section and the inline citations are a mess. I propose to alter them all to short citations. At the moment there are half citations with no page numbers and/or publishers etc, but because of the layout it is difficult to see what is missing.
The article notes that Robert G. Poirier and Albert Z. Conner is the main source, but there is only one citation to that general reference.
Also what does "5.45." mean? It appears after quite a few of the entries.
-- PBS ( talk) 00:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
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Why was this created?!-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
58th RD was indeed formed in Meleks in Transcaucasian MD, but as 2nd formation. This is a different unit to the 58th MtRD which was a part of 12th Army in Ukraine http://ww2doc.50megs.com/Issue36/Issue36_072.html -- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 03:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest that any list entry that has more then two lines is a candidate for an article stub?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 08:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Revert if you want to, but I have a real problem working with such long lists. -- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
May be I misunderstand the need for Lists.
Infantry divisions of the Soviet Union 1917–1957 probably needs to start with a "List of", however, this is not the real issue. The real issue is that I for one tend to look at larger formations such as Armies and Fronts, and military districts that these divisions were a part of, and also the context of their activities, the operations.
I had decided not to contribute to the list because it is difficult. Why is it difficult? Because, inconveniently, the Soviet Army did not assign divisions to higher formations in numerical sequence! Not only that, but succeeding formations of same numerical designation were liable to serve with different higher formation!
These newly formed divisions had their own combat histories, with the consequences that when I do come across data on the division NUMBER, it is unlikely to be at the same time as I come across data on ALL manifestations of that unit NUMBER. This means that the access to the list for the purpose of expanding it is discontinuous. Not only that, but the length of the list, and the section-less and break-less formatting provide for difficult navigation once I'm there.
Besides this, I fail to see the need for redundancy in having summaries of articles a click away!
Another problem is that the list actually fails to describe the one thing that serves as its defining commonality, Red Army, and later, Soviet rifle troops. Neither Soviet nor 'rifle divisions' are even mentioned in the article on infantry the current list is linked to! I appreciate the work done my User:W. B. Wilson, I really do, but it seems to me that a substantial rethinking and reorganisation of the article/list is required, something I did not intend to address just yet due to other commitments.
This is not helped when one considers that Poirier and Conner decided to order divisional military district assignments by alphabetical order of their place of formation! Unfortunately the cities in Soviet Union are not distributed among their regional administrative divisions in alphabetical order either! This presents a wider problem of linking articles dealing with evolution of Imperial Russian, Soviet and Russian Federation's militaries historically due to this arbitrary alpha-numeric serialisation unrelated to actual administrative of geographic reality.
However, since Kirill had made a proposal, I would suggest going with a historical structure and using:
The benefit there is that since most editors edit based on context and not numerical sequence, as information comes to hand on the unit's participation in any of the operations in other articles, they can be added to unit article (as Buckshot06 does now) since finding a number on a non-sequential list page is easy with basic Edit/Find function in the browser. The military district sections would also help to avoid the 10s or 50s sections that have no meaning, and provide context and interlinking elsewhere. I would suggest retaining the article though, and not as a list, but as a place to describe the Soviet rifle forces of the period before their conversion to motor-rifle form. This expansion on the nature of Soviet rifle troops will compensate for the reduction in size through creation of stubs from already available data, and make for a much more useful article that actually fills a current 'hole'.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Buckshot06, you do not have to English-afy everything. There is already a set up disambig page for the Narodnoe Opolcheniye and that is how the troops have been known since before the Russian Empire. This is also their most used name in English.
It is also confusing because the military police in Russian is voyennaya militsia. I'm loath to undo your edits yet again.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record, a literal translation of opolchenye
is derived from o-pol(k)-cheniye, to allocate to a polk, i.e. to regimentalize the volunteers (narod), so militia is wrong, because militia in England is a selective registred preallocated system of voluntary recruitment and opolcheniye is not at all.
Soviet Military Law and Administration - Page 195 by Harold Joseph Berman, Miroslav Kerner - Military law - 1955 - 208 pages Citizens in units of the people-in-arms (narodnoe opolchenie) were declared subject to the Statute on Military Crimes and under the jurisdiction of military ..
Russia at War, 1941-1945 - Page 300 by Alexander Werth - World War, 1939-1945 - 1964 - 1100 pages By July 10, the first opolcheniye division was sent to the front, ... These three opolcheniye divisions were rushed to the so-called Luga defence line, ..
900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad - Page 680
by Harrison Salisbury - History - 1983
... Opolcheniye Leningrado; and Karasev. CHAPTER 20. THE ENEMY AT THE GATES The
description of Smolny is based on GN ...
Imperial and Soviet Russia: Power, Privilege, and the Challenge of Modernity by David Christian - Communism - 1997 - 478 pages Page 333 He also ordered the formation of militia (opolcheniye) units. A Soviet novel written by Konstantin Simonov in the late 1950s gives a vivid description of ...
T.L.S. - Page 230
Music History and criticism Periodicals - 1963
Both the Moscow opolcheniye monograph and the Sebastopol monograph are ...
The story of the Moscow opolcheniye — those 140000 or 150000 civilians who ..
The Eastern Front, 1914-1917 - Page 168
by Norman Stone - History - 1998 - 352 pages
The disintegration of III Army in Galicia was similarly written down by its chief
of staff, and corps commanders, to the opolcheniye's surrendering in ...
The Golden Ring: Cities of Old Russia - Page 178 by Vadim Evgenʹevich Gippenreĭter, Alekseĭ I. Komech - Social Science - 1991 After a siege lasting six months the patriotic opolcheniye (national popular army) stormed the monastery and expelled the Poles - thanks mainly to the ...
The Aspirations of Bulgaria - Page 101
by Stojan Protić - Balkan Peninsula History War of 1912-1913 - 1915
Complementary units, the Serbian third ban or the Bulgarian Opolcheniye, are not
included in the stipulated effective. ...
Soldiers of the Tsar: Army and Society in Russia, 1462-1874 - Page 8
by John L. H. Keep - Social Science - 1985 - 432 pages
... the militia (opolcheniye), or the rewards system, which included the bestowal
of remarkably lavish gifts on individual servitors by the tsar, ...
The Slavonic and East European Review - Page 358
by Modern Humanities Research Association - Europe Economic conditions Periodicals - 1943
... for the abysmally low standard of efficiency of the levy (opolcheniye) provided
by the service gentry, still the backbone of the Russian armed forces. ...
Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb - Page 43 by Richard Rhodes - History - 1995 - 731 pages ... as coming from him; but the things of which he spoke — opolcheniye [ie, civilian reserves], partisans, occupied territories, meant the end of illusions. ...
Readings in Russian History - Page 197 by Sidney Harcave - Soviet Union - 1962 In 1611, largely as a result of their activities, a popular levy (opolcheniye) was formed to liberate the country from the invader. ...
VOKS Bulletin - Page 21
by Vsesoi︠u︡znoe obshchestvo kulʹturnoĭ svi︠a︡zi s zagranit︠s︡eĭ (Soviet Union) - Soviet Union - 1933
... chief of the opolcheniye (people's guards) Dmitri Pozharsky. ...
You like Oxford, so here is one from that "stable"
The New Oxford Companion to Music
by Denis Arnold, Percy Alfred Scholes - Music - 1983 - 2017 pages
Page 1600
... notably his four-act Ilya bogatyr ('Ilya the Bogatyr', 1807) and the two- act
Ivan Susanin (composed 1815, performed 1822). Like his ballet Opolcheniye, ...
Here is one from before the Revolution
The Russian Year-book - Page 77
by Howard Percy Kennard, Kennard, Howard Percy, d. 1915, Netta Peacock - Russia - 1911
... and the war strength about fear millions, but this figure includes garrison
troops, and the Opolcheniye* (now numbering about a million) ...
A World in Flames: A History of World War II - Page 93 by Martha Byrd - World War, 1939-1945 - 1970 - 356 pages With little training or equipment, these Opolcheniye, or "home guard" battalions, died by the thousands.12 But Moscow held. ...
Selected Philosophical Works - Page 621
by
Alexander Herzen - Philosophy, Russian - 1956 - 629 pages
1611), one of the leaders of the first Opolcheniye (1610-1611) (People's Volunteer
Army) against the Polish invaders. P. 569 275 Figner, ...
Hope and Glory - Page 238
by Leslie Arlen - Fiction - 1982 - 386 pages
So what we are having to use is the opolcheniye — what you might call our national
guard, eh? — the factory regiments. But these are only part-time soldiers ...
Soviet Literature
1947
Page 195
... opolcheniye (a kind of home guard-TV.), the "communist volunteers," as he
called them, often insufficiently trained and under-armed, who nevertheless ...
The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians
by Sadie, Stanley
Page 39
... which was first performed on 27 May 1812. The same year, inspired by the war.
Cavos composed a nationalistic ballet entitled Opolchenie ili lyubov' k Otechestvu (1812) a ballet
In French
La grande histoire de la Seconde Guerre mondiale. - Page 74 by Pierre Montagnon - 1993 La guerre de partisans, la formation de milices populaires (opolcheniye) dans les villes menacées, toutes les formules doivent être utilisées pour repousser ...
D'une Russie à l'autre: vie et mort de l'URSS - Page 335
by Jean Elleinstein - Soviet Union - 1992 - 763 pages
Des bataillons ouvriers (opolcheniye) furent constitués dans les grandes villes,
à Moscou, Léningrad, Odessa, Kiev, etc. Des milices se formèrent pour la ...
Les Grands dossiers du Troisième Reich - Page 270
by Jacques Robichon - Germany - 1969 - 499 pages
En tout, vingt-cinq bataillons de travailleurs participèrent à la défense de
Moscou, sans compter les régiments d'opolcheniye, les bataillons de femmes,
A History of the Soviet Army - Page 223
by Michel Garder - Soviet Union - 1966 - 226 pages
Odessa, 43, 104, 138 OGPU, 36, 77, 78, 80, 94 Okrug (see Regions, military)
Opolcheniye, 19 Ordzhonikidze, GK, 77, 86, 94 and n. ...
Variant spelling
The Commander: A Life of Barclay de Tolly - Page 181 by Michael Josselson, Diana Josselson - Biography & Autobiography - 1980 - 288 pages (One-third was made up of opolchenie, many of whom were still armed only with pikes; their officers led or, rather, drove them with curses and knouts. ...
The Siege of Leningrad: Epic of Survival - Page 60 by Alan Wykes - Saint Petersburg (Russia) - 1968 - 160 pages About a hundred thousand of the opolchenie never returned. They were defending the city ... Unlike the bulk of the opolchenie they had specialized training. ...
A History of Warfare - Page 221
by John Keegan - History - 1994 - 496 pages
That of the Cossacks was one; another was that of the opolchenie, ... Inadvertently,
he admitted the part the opolchenie played in driving the Grand Army's ...
The Times History of the War
[2]- Page 503
by Ian Drury, Times (London, England) - World War, 1914-1918 - 1914
The " Opolchenie " included all men fit to bear arms from their 21st to the ...
Except for the above-mentioned first four contingents the Opolchenie could ...
The Times History and Encyclopedia and History of the War' was a weekly publication by one of Great Britian's most reknowned and respected publishers.
Memorandum - - Page 31 by Rand Corporation - Research - 1961 In both emergencies 26 The parallel between the British Local Defence Volunteers (later Home Guard), armed with shotguns and old rifles, and the opolchenie, ...
Odessa, 1941-1944: A Case Study of Soviet Territory Under Foreign Rule - Page 31 by Alexander Dallin, Larry L. Watts - History - 1998 - 296 pages The registration of volunteers and conscription of the opolchenie were entrusted to the oblast and city committees of the Party.4 Full-scale mobilization of ...
The Windsor Magazine: An Illustrated Monthly for Men and Women - Page 608 1914 Then fifteen years in the reserve and five years in the Opolchenie. Into the Opolchenie, of which there are two categories, enter also the most fit of those ...
Bulletin of the New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox and Tilden Foundations
by New York Public Library - Bibliography - 1970
Page 50
... opolchenie ... opolchenie. ...
Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945 by Catherine Merridale - History - 2006 - 480 pages Page 408 4, part 1, p. 56. 13. Overy, Russia's War, p. 118. 14. AE Gordon, "Moskovskoe narodnoe opolchenie 1941 goda glazami ...
The World's Work ...: A History of Our Time - Page 486
by Walter Hines Page, Arthur Wilson Page - 1914
... difficulty in German Army 24 Oriental trend ol Germany 133 Opolchenie.
See Russia, Army. ...
The New York Times Current History - Page 329 by New York Times Company - World War, 1914-1918 - 1917 The first of these measures relates to the conscription of the opolchenie of the second category — a measure adopted by all the belligerent countries, ...
Whirlwind by Joseph R. Garber - Fiction - 2005 - 404 pages Page 43 She drinks. There is nothing else she can do. He rambles on: a military family, through and through. First there were the opolchenie serfs pressed into ...
Report of the International Commission to Inquire Into the Causes and ...
by International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars, Nicholas Murray Butler, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Division of Intercourse and Education - Balkan Peninsula - 1914 - 413 pages
Page 76
A volunteer of the Macedonian legion (Opolchenie), who was previously known to
a member of the Commission as an honorable and truthful man, recounted the ...
The Re-shaping of the Far East
by Bertram Lenox Putnam Weale, Bertram Lenox Simpson - Eastern question (Far East) - 1905
Page 509
In war the total strength is approximately 4000000 trained men, whilst, by having
recourse to the " opolchenie" many millions more of partially trained and ...
Zhukov - Page 144 by Otto Preston Chaney - Biography & Autobiography - 1996 - 560 pages ... be relatively insensitive to German "wedge" tactics of the armored forces. By the middle of July stubborn defensive fighting (with volunteer opolchenie .
The Second World War: Europe and the Mediterranean - Page 123 by Thomas B. Buell, John H. Bradley, Jack W. Dice - History - 2002 - 448 pages ... and escarpment plus countless infantry trenches around the city.l24 The male citizens not engaged in war production served in hastily formed opolchenie ...
The art of warfare in the age of Napoleon - Page 203 by Gunther Erich Rothenberg - History - 1978 - 272 pages While some Russian troops, especially Lithuanians deserted, the great majority remained steadfast and a hastily mustered militia, the opolchenie, ...
Battle: A History of Combat and Culture (review) The Journal of Military History - Volume 68, Number 3, July 2004, pp. 943-945
The United Service
1904
Page 123
But in case of national emergency this force could be swelled to about 7500000
fighting men by the calling out of the Territorial Reserve and the Opolchenie ...
Writing the Siege of Leningrad: Women's Diaries, Memoirs, and Documentary Prose by Cynthia Simmons, Nina Perlina - History - 2002 - 304 pages ... volunteered for what eventually became known as the "people's militia" (narodnoe opolchenie). In some cases, people were under pressure to volunteer, ...
Russia as Seen and Described by Famous Writers
edited by Esther Singleton - Russia - 1904 - 361 pages
Page 357
... in the active army and six in the Zapas ; and in Caucasia, three years in the
active army and 15 in the Zapas. The Opolchenie is a reserve force of ...
Stalinism and Nazism: Dictatorships in Comparison - Page 192 by Ian Kershaw, Moshe Lewin - Political Science - 1997 - 381 pages Such losses amounted to 30 per cent of all ammunition and 50 per cent of all fuel and food reserves.32 The militia units (narodnoe opolchenie), for example, ...
Russia as I Know it - Page 91
by Harry De Windt - Soviet Union - 1917 - 232 pages
... on a war footing, to about 8000000 men, this number including the reserves,
but not the Cossacks or " Opolchenie " (a kind of "
Landsturm"), which may ...
The Foe Within: Fantasies of Treason And the End of Imperial Russia
by William C. Fuller - True Crime - 2006 - 304 pages
... and asked him for a posting to the opolchenie, or home guard. ...
The Russo-Japanese War: Reports from British Officers Attached to the ... - Page 298 by Great Britain War Office, Great Britain War Office. General Staff - Russo-Japanese War, 1904-1905 - 1908 At the end of August 25 battalions of Siberian Militia (Opolchenie) were en route for Manchuria to take the place of the Frontier Guards, who were to be ...
The Great War - Page 216
by William R. Griffiths, Thomas E. Griess - History - 2003 - 272 pages
Opolchenie. ...
The Russian Army of the Napoleonic Wars - Page 20 by Albert Seaton - History - 1979 - 48 pages In all the Russian Army in 1812 numbered 700000 men not including the Cossack hosts or the opolchenie, the home guard militia. In the early summer of 1812 ...
Where Nation-states Come from: Institutional Change in the Age of Nationalism - Page 252 by Philip G. Roeder - Political Science - 2007 - 417 pages ... narodnoe opolchenie," Pravda October 16, 1991, 1, 3; ...
FUBAR (F***ed Up Beyond All Recognition): Soldier Slang of World War II - Page 280
by Gordon L. Rottman - Language Arts & Disciplines - 2007 - 296 pages
... Members of the opolchenie (volunteer militia), aged 17-55, raised early in
the war to serve as last-ditch combat and labor units. ...
The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front, 22 June-August 1941 ... - Page 429
by David M. Glantz - History - 1993 - 511 pages
It shows Soviet formations raised from 22 June to 1 December 1941. The combat
power of those formations may have been minimal, for some were opolchenie ...
Storm of Steel: The Development of Armor Doctrine in Germany and the Soviet ... - Page 41
by Mary R. Habeck - History - 2003 - 309 pages
... opolchenie). Here again, only the infantry can be, inevitably, the main type
offeree in terms of both numbers and preparation...
[4]
The Russian empire, 1801-1917 - Page 752 by Hugh Seton-Watson - History - 1988 - 840 pages ... anniversary of the invasion, a collection of documents relating to the mobilization of the Russian people to meet it, entitled Narodnoe opolchenie v
The War of the Rising Sun and Tumbling Bear: A Military History of the Russo ... - Page 19
by Richard Michael Connaughton - History - 1988 - 300 pages
After eighteen years he passed into the Opolchenie or militia. There were few
exemptions from military duty, although Cossacks, Finns and Christians in the ...
The Encyclopedia of Nineteenth-Century Land Warfare: An Illustrated World View by Byron Farwell - History - 2001 - 900 pages Page 119 On 3 September 10000 Russian opolchenie [qv] from Moscow began work on fortifications. On 5 September the cavalry of French Marshal Joachim Murat [qv] ...
Report of the Special Commission on Military Education and Reserve. December ... by Robert Lovejoy Raymond, Walton Atwater Green - Military education - 1915 - 76 pages Page 93 The Opolchenie, or territorial army, is divided into two classes or bans. The first includes not only the trained men who have passed through the first line ...
British Military Intelligence in the Crimean War, 1854-1856
by Stephen M. Harris - History - 1999 - 182 pages
11 By September five of Russia's six infantry corps were in the Crimea and the
opolchenie (temporary militias composed of mostly peasant 'volunteers') was ...
Captured Soviet Generals: the fate of Soviet generals captured by the ... - Page 41 by Aleksander A. Maslov, David M. Glantz, Harold Steven Orenstein - History - 2001 - 329 pages Pashko, Narodnoe opolchenie ...
The Horizon History of Russia - Page 123 by Ian Grey - Russia - 1970 - 404 pages ... to lead what became the second opolchenie. In Moscow Cossacks held the Polish occupation forces under siege in the Kremlin. ...
I'll end with British Documents on the Origins of the War, 1898-1914 - Page 263 by Great Britain Foreign Office, George Peabody Gooch, Harold William Vazeille Temperley - World War, 1914-1918 - 1926 In Moscow and Kieff 1910 to 1913 classes Ban of Opolchenie taken in addition, bnt not here as yet. Reported that 200000 reservists taken in Petersburg. ...
This ought to be enough. So you see, some choose to translate the term because they need to show what kind of troops Opolchenye are since English readers understand the hussars to be light cavalry, and the cuirassiers to be heavy cavalry although neither are English words. The reason Opolchenye is not very common is because they were only called out four times in 200 years, 1812, 1855, 1916 and 1941. However, that it no reason to English-ise them as you would put it. This is a reference work, not a place to display simplified vocabulary.
Oh fuck. Why am I arguing this?! Any idiot can write
Russian people's militia, or Battle of Berlin! The point of being a reference is to actually inform the reader of something thay can not know themselves! If Buckshot can do a better job on the Eastern Front articles, let him. I have had jack of all these "discussions". You also Philip if you are reading. There is no way of writing on a non-English language subject without transliterating some terms which will never have a meaning in English because they are foreign to the culture, language and history of English-language societies. If you can not deal with that, then the readers who may want to know about the subject will have to wait in ignorance until somone else has the initiative to continue. Yes, I take ownership of articles, but in real life editing, not like the play-editing here, this is expected. Here, some really fucked up "policy and conventions" dictate change in facts because one individual somewhere in the world deems it to be so based on what? So here is the deal, I will edit the articles as sources I bring suggest I should, and according to best accepted academic standard. I will contact authors if there is a problem, and if they fail to reply, they will be removed from the references. If I am reverted I will immediatelly take the issue to arbitration although I know that if there were any admins who had a clue about the eastern front they would not allow the sort of rubbish that was there to remain--
mrg3105 (
comms) ♠♥♦♣
12:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I touched on this before, and will have to again. The list of divisions you have is inadequate for reference when I write articles on operations. I have been putting off saying this, but there is no way of saying it any other way. You need to appreciate that a division 123 (Ist formation) is not same as division 123 (IInd formation) with very few rare exceptions. I can not use the list you have as it is now because in Perecheni the units are completely different, including the subunits. You may argue with me, but I can not change the way Soviet General Staff worked. That is all I can say. As I get further into the articles, I will need to split off different formations of the same numbered units. Please, I do not expect any help from you, but do not hinder me either. I am not trying to prove you wrong every time. Its just how things are, and you have a few things to learn, and I have had more years then you have had at it, and that's all there is to it. You can learn, or you can obstinately !@#$ up what I'm trying to do. The only one who suffers is the Wikipedia user.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 14:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC) PS. I do not mind if you or anyone else fixes up the few spelling of minor grammatical mistakes I make, but I usually choose my words carefully, so if you are not sure it is not either of those, please ask me before correcting.
A bit of history - Narodnoe Opolcheniye was so used for political purposes when Moscow assumed the leading role in the 16th Century Russia, before there was a Russia. It sought to emphasise the Tsar as the "father" of all of Russians, that included other principalities that sought to remain independent. Before the unification of Russians under the leadership of Moscow, each city and town had its own Opolcheniye not named Narodnoe, but named after the city or town, so Novgorodskoye Opolcheniye, Suzdalskoye Opolcheniye, Vladimirskoye Opolcheniye, etc. Maybe someone will write articles for them also one day. They were not militia either. When attacked, the city/town people would simply arm themselves and gather into a polk, which is translated in its modern meaning as a regiment. However, this was not always so. For example in the Slovo o polku Igoreve it refers to the entire force led on a campaign. Dal' vol.III, pp.262, gives other usages such as rat', voisko, opolcheniye, tolpa and vataga. It just happens that some words were retained and some were not. Even if one considers that the units that are the subject of the article were gathered into regiments from volunteers, this still does not warrant the use of peoples' militia, because there are many so-named forces in history and across the globe.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"Narodnoe" means "people's". "Opolcheniye" means "militia". There is no real argument here. Even your description of "opolcheniye" above fits the English term "militia". -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
"Opolcheniye" is "militia", direct translation. The fact that historical militias in England were more organized than the WW2 Soviet militia is completely and utterly irrelevant. The fact that the article had a wrong title for a long period of time is equally irrelevant. The Cossacks, Hussars and the Landwehr? To my knowledge, a direct translation was not possible (I do not speak Hungarian). -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 13:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Here's the thing: even if I did not know what a militia is, a ridiculous notion, I would still not need to look it up. All I need to know is that "opolcheniye" is directly translated into "militia", and that I most certainly do. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 14:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The term "militia" is derived from Latin roots:
- miles /miːles/ : soldier [1]
- -itia /iːtia/ : a state, activity, quality or condition of being [2] [3]
- militia /mil:iːtia/: Military service [4]
In English, the word "militia" dates to 1590 when it was recorded in a book by Sir John Smythe, Certain Discourses Military with the meanings: a military force; a body of soldiers and military affairs; a body of military discipline [5]
I do not think it is necessary for you to share your revelations, as I do not see the point. The English translation of "Opolcheniye" would still be "militia" even if you wrote up the entire history of the word's use and its military meaning. This is why I do not see the point of this discussion. Anyway, I responded to the RfC, I'm done here. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 14:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Webster’s 1 records 90 words of Russian borrowings, though some are mis-etymologised. This is the case of caftan (Turkic), protopope (Greek), shaman (Tungus) or ukase (French). This group also includes such words as britska, czarina or Kremlin, here derived from Russian, which cannot be treated as an etymologically proven fact. Webster’s 1 admits into its pages three ephemeral words, i.e., mykiss, nerka and opolchenie, which are not found in the subsequent editions. Webster’s 2 is the largest dictionary of English and, because of its immense coverage of both current as well as obsolete words, was for years regarded by many—even after the appearance of the third edition in 1961—as the dictionary par excellence (Landau 2001: 86). There are 291 words of Russian provenience in it, and the number visibly surpasses that of Webster’s 1, which should not be surprising. On the one hand, the 1917 revolution and World War I drew public attention, which clearly intensified the borrowing from Russian into English. On the other hand, the dictionary followed less restrictive inclusion criteria, so a number of hapax legomena (e.g., chort, izvozchik, korova or molka) were allowed into its wordlist. Moreover, several words in Webster’s 2 have brand-new etymologies (caftan, Calmucks, liman, parka) or slightly modified forms, e.g., Dukhoborts (Dukhobors in Webster’s 1), Ivan (Ivan Ivanovitch in Webster’s 1) or plet (plitt in Webster’s 1). The purpose of Webster’s 3 has to record the standard English vocabulary of predominantly the 20th century, so all items that had gone out of use by the mid-18th century were dropped. The dictionary, in Quirk’s words ‘a meticulously complete register of English vocabulary’ (qtd. in Morton 1994: 197), comprised approximately 450,000 entries in a single volume. It comes as a surprise that Russian borrowings recorded in Webster’s 3 are as numerous as in Webster’s 2, even though the Soviet Union, with all the intricacies of its political and social system, aroused great interest in the American media. However, though the figures are almost the same, there are considerable differences in the selection of entries, because a number of outdated words (e.g., besprizorni, garnetz, nefte or sotnia) were left out, while new borrowings (e.g., apparatchik, chum, makhorka or shashlik) were included in the revision process for Webster’s 3. Interestingly, some of the newcomers (e.g., blin, chinovnik, gusli or kovsh) are by no means new, since they were attested in English texts as early as the 19th century. Three loans which appeared in Webster’s 1 but not in Webster’s 2, i.e., Molokane, osseter and polynia, were readmitted into Webster’s 3 (as Molokan, osetra and polynya, respectively).
I'm not sure why you are insistent that everything has to be translated into English based on this awareness-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I was asked to comment at my talk. This is not the subject of my expertize, so I am simply trying to make sense of what I read and apply my understanding of WP conventions. Foreign loanwords should be avoided, when possible, but sometimes they must be used. Whether it was to be avoided here is the question we must answer. If the term's particular translation has a clear prevalence in English sources, we must translate it the same way. Glantz is clearly an example of a respected source. But Glantz alone does not demonstrate the prevalence. If other major sources use a different wording, we have no universally accepted in English texts term. As a non-native speaker, it is hard for me to judge whether Militia is the best translation indeed. It relays the meaning all right but Mrg argues that it may be misleading. I see this point too. So, I cannot state my clear preference but one thing is clear to me. Glantz alone, no matter how respectable an author, does not get to define the universal English usage. So, unless other sources are brought up, we should not use the argument of prevalence. -- Irpen 00:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC) small> 01:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This reminds me the debate about Oblast. In Ukrainian articles the idea of using province to refer to the administrative unit (it is also called this way in Russian and slightly different in Belarusian) was initially popular. We ended up deciding against it because oblast is a very specific type of the administrative unit while "province" is too general and inexact. So we use: "XXX was born in the city of XXX of [[Kiev Oblast]] ''([[oblast|province]]''), Ukraine and from that point on use Oblast throughout. For Russian Voyevodstvo and Polish wojewodztwo the anglicized term Voivodship does exist, but Oblast is variously translated as province, region, etc. So, there is no established term.
Perhaps, if Opolchenie being such a narrow and specific type of the military formation of people that anglicized militia is too inexact warrants to use a loanword? It is up to experts to decide on this but it's possible. If the anglicized version prevailed in English usage, that would have ended the debate. I don't see this being demonstrated, Glantz notwithstanding. Despite he is a very respectable author, he does not get to define the universal usability if others do not follow suit. -- Irpen 02:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This conversation has now moved on to Talk:Narodnoe Opolcheniye#Requested move -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 09:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Mrg3105 has asked that a merger be considered between this page, the infantry divisions 1917-57, and the original page, divisions of the USSR 1917-45. This page is at ~150 k at the moment, the other being 60k ish, and size was the reason why the pages were split originally. I'll find the original talkpage discussion on it. (It was split; it's here and here) There is also ongoing material needed to be added from the 'Higher Numbered Rifle Divisions' article from the Journal of Slavic Military Studies which I've been reluctant to keep adding while the article was unstable. This will see this page grow still further. In summary, because both pages are large and have good potential to grow larger still, I do not believe they should be merged. Comments and disagreement welcome however. Regards to all, Buckshot06( prof) 14:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
(od) Would you object, then, if I removed the material until you find the references? No question of the name - that'll be decided at the RM - but this page is almost 100% referenced and solid, apart from that section. The number of half-worked-on pages you have on your list is very long, and I'd like to keep this page up to scratch until you find the references to back it. Whoops, or better still, insert the links here, and I can use machine translation etc to set up translations of titles, whatever - then all you'd need to do is provide the sites. Buckshot06( prof) 10:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
From my talk page:
Hi, Mrg. From my background Narodnoye Opolcheniye seems to be infinitely better than People's Militia - it was indeed was not a Militia in American sense. They were regular conscripted army formations albeit much worse equipped and trained, with the history of the term going back to medieval times. We have many Russian loan words like Spetznaz, Smersh and Oblast, I would think Narodnoye Opolcheniye can go the same way. On the other hand I guess that an ordinary reader of Wikipedia who does not know Russian would be taken aback by this mountain of characters that does not seem even form something pronounceable. I think it is important to give the reader at least some anchor with recognizable words. This, I put in the parenthesis (People's Militia) in the section's title and the first time the word is used so the reader can understand what is going on.
Since English is my second language I am trying to avoid all the copyediting and grammatic disputes assuming that native speakers are better than me in this regard. Still if People Militia will be chosen as the best name of the divisions I think we need a sentence explainging that they were not militia. Alex Bakharev ( talk) 02:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
(od) Your source page does not back this up in the case of the Leningrad force. The raising of the destroyer battalions was formalised by a city decree and the transformation of the battalions into a NO force was the result of appeals for volunteers by the Leningrad city authorities. Buckshot06( prof) 03:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
See also http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/archive/index.php/index.php?t-19725.html for other higher numbered Guards Rifle Divisions.
goes nowhere-- Shattered Wikiglass ( talk) 06:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
There were few caes of duplicating numbers for simultaneously existing division. What I remember:
2 Rifle Division (III) - reorganized from 2 ( former Odessa) Cavalry Division in Sevastopol in November 1941. On 29 January 1942 renamed 109 Rifle Division 2 Rifle Division (IV) - formed in Archangelk Military District in the end of 1941. Before 29.01.1941 the number was duplicate.
186 Rifle Division (I) - pre-war division, Ural military ditrict. 186 Rifle Division (II) - formed in Murmansk in September 1941 as Polar Rifle Division, on 28 September 1941 was renamed 186 RD. Only in June 1943 was renamed 205 Rifle Division. Till that time both division bore the same number.
1 Tank Division (I) - pre-war division, Leningrad military district. 1 Tank Division (II) - created by reorganizing 1 (Moscow) Motorized Division on 18 August 1941. On 22 September renamed 1 Guards Motorized Rifle Division. Between these dates two 1 Tank Divisions existed.
(Axis History Forum) Buckshot06 (talk) 09:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a useful list but it is let down by the quality of its citations.
The references section and the inline citations are a mess. I propose to alter them all to short citations. At the moment there are half citations with no page numbers and/or publishers etc, but because of the layout it is difficult to see what is missing.
The article notes that Robert G. Poirier and Albert Z. Conner is the main source, but there is only one citation to that general reference.
Also what does "5.45." mean? It appears after quite a few of the entries.
-- PBS ( talk) 00:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
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