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Archive 1 |
Tell, me the reason for adding the flag, Cukiger. Provide me one non-nationalistic reason. But dont try to sell the ultra stuff that you'll be trying to add. No, it was not an "uprising of the Macedonian people". I'm not adding this flag anywhere in the list of Bulgarian flags although the poeple behind the uprising self-identified as Bulgarians, were identified as Bulgarians and ued Bulgarian symbols. It's even written in the documents of IMRO. In the interest of consensus and to avoid never-ending edit-wars this flag best not be put in controversial situations like this one. You have no good reasons as to why the flag should be here and rescruiting other people to revert it is not doing you a good favour. -- Laveol T 15:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you gonna try and discuss the issue or you're just make countless reverts? I aks you again to provide reasons why this should be included here. And there was nothing in the Pulevski article to support your claims. Are you making fun of the other editors? -- Laveol T 19:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What shall we discuss? There's nothing to discuss about. The uprising was organized by Macedonians and Vlachs from Macedonia. If you think it was Bulgarian, ok, i don't care. Read what Pulevski has written, dumby. That Macedonians are a people, not a subgroup of Bulgars. Cukiger ( talk) 03:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Laveol, stop the random accusations of sockpuppetry and meatpuppeting, please. That's not an excuse for revert-warring. And don't just bring Gligan in any time some guy disagrees with you. Discuss before reverting, people. Balkan Fever 03:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
The black - red flag of IMRO apeared first in the 1920-s. In 1903 Ilinden - Preobrajenie Uprising insurgents ...despite these promises the insurgents flew Bulgarian flags everywhere and in many places the uprising did entail attacks on Muslim Turks and Albanians... "Who Are the Macedonians?" - Page: 57, by Hugh Pulton. [1] Jingby ( talk) 10:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
References
Please replace Image:Flag of Macedonia 1991-95.svg with Image:Flag of the Republic of Macedonia 1991-1995.svg. -- CecilK ( talk) 12:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC) {{ editprotected}}
How about this flag and its connection to RoM?
After the First World War the territory of the present-day Republic of Macedonia came under the direct rule of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and was sometimes termed "Southern Serbia". Together with a portion of today's Serbia, it belonged officially to the newly formed Vardar Banovina. An intense program of Serbianization was implemented during the 1920s and 1930s when Belgrade enforced a Serbian cultural assimilation process on the region. Between the two world wars in Vardar Banovina, the regional Macedonian dialects were declared as Serbian and the Serbian language was introduced in the schools and administration as official language. There was implemented a governmental policy of assassinations and assimilation. The Serbian administration in Vardar Banovina felt insecure and that provoked it's brutal reprisals on the local peasant population. IMRO began sending armed bands called cheti into Greek and Yugoslav Macedonia and Thrace to assassinate officials and stir up the spirit of the oppressed population. In 1923 and 1924 during the apogee of interwar military activity according to IMRO statistics in the region of Yugoslav (Vardar) Macedonia operated 53 chetas (armed bands), 36 of which penetrated from Bulgaria, 12 were local and 5 entered from Albania. The aggregate membership of the bands was 3245 komitas (guerilla rebels) led by 79 voivodas (commanders), 54 subcommanders, 41 secretaries and 193 couriers. 119 fights and 73 terroristic acts were documented. Serbian casualties were 304 army and gendarmery officers, soldiers and paramilitary fighters, more than 1300 were wounded. IMRO lost 68 voivodas and komitas, hundreds were wounded.
Where is the connection to RoM. I am going to remove it, if proves will not be provided. Jingby ( talk) 07:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Vlado Chernozemski entered the region of Vardar Banovina with IMRO bands and participated in more than 15 battles with the Serbian police. At one point, Chernozemski planned to enter the League of Nations building in Paris and detonate himself to protest against the passivity of the world organization over the Macedonian Question but never carried out the plot. He assassinated Alexander I of Yugoslavia in the port of Marseille, France on October 9, 1934, and was himself killed immediately afterwards, 10 days before his 37th birthday.
Why died this men and the others as him? With an aim the flag of Kingdom of Yugoslavia to be shown as Macedonian or what? Jingby ( talk) 17:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Enough reasons were given why the flag shouldn't be here. None were provided for the opposite. Give some now or it'll have to be removed again. -- Laveol T 10:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Aren't you tired of your own propaganda? Well, I am, and I am sure others are too. Cukiger ( talk) 15:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
No reason or prove were given! Jingby ( talk) 16:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Krste Misirkov, a highly controversial writer who alternated between pan-Bulgarian and pan-Macedonian nationalism throughout his lifetime described the IMORO in his pro-Macedonian publication "On Macedonian Matters" written in the wake of the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising as Bulgarian officials working for Bulgarian interests and linked in name, and in church and school matters, to the people of Bulgaria, their country and their interests. Misirkov wrote:
We can call the Uprising whatever we like, but in fact it was only a partial movement. It was, and still is, an affair of the Exarchists: that is, a Bulgarian ploy to settle the Macedonian question to its own advantage by creating a Bulgarian Macedonia... If the autonomy of Macedonia should result from the present Uprising, the Macedonian question will be settled not to the advantage of the Macedonians but of the Bulgarians, for the Committee, as we have seen earlier, is working behind a Bulgarian front... Thus the reason why the Uprising failed is perfectly clear: from the very outset it was established on the wrong basis instead of being a general Macedonian Uprising it was a partial insurrection with Bulgarian overtones. The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.
And how this flags from Ilinden Uprising and IMORO are historical flags of your country now? Jingby ( talk) 07:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.
The following is an excerpt that describes this process from Palmer and King. It describes how language, history and religion were used to develop the "Macedonian" ethnicity:
It is reasonable to hold that, prior to World War II, the Slavs of Yugoslav Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarians [..]
The Yugoslav communist policy has encouraged the national consciousness of the Macedonian Slavs [..]
Sources:
1. Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65 , ISBN 0691043566
2. Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, CT Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200 Jingby ( talk) 16:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This is Bulgarian school in Krushevo from this period. The people considered themselves Bulgarians. As the British researcher of the Balkans H. N. Brailsford wrote in his book Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future: "The moment for which the Bulgarian population had been preparing for ten years arrived on the festival of the Prophet Elias — the evening of Sunday, August the 2nd, 1903." - " H. N. Brailsford, "Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future", Methuen & Co., London, 1906, part V. The Bulgarian movement, chapter 11. The General Rising of 1903 in Monastir, p. 148. Jingby ( talk) 18:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Jingiby keeps deleting this flag without a source, even though I kept stating it was a predessecor for an autonomous or independent Macedonia. FOTW Now stop editing warring because of your POV. Mactruth 98.243.158.123 ( talk) 16:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is not nationalistic phantasy forum. In this encyclopedia exist articles with added references and sources. Pleace, read them:
2. IMRO
I do not state also, removed flags are Bulgarian or Serbian, regardless the fact they were used mainly by Bulgarians [2] [3] [4] [5] and Serbians.(also Aromanians, Grecomans, Croats and Slovens) But they were not symbols of ethnic Macedonians nor or of RoM. Especially the flag of IMRO from 1920-s. It was terrorist and nationalistic, hard pro - Bulgarian organisation.
And again;
According to Hugh Pulton in 1903 in Krushevo the insurgents ...despite these promises the insurgents flew Bulgarian flags everywhere and in many places the uprising did entail attacks on Muslim Turks and Albanians... "Who Are the Macedonians?" - Page: 57, [6]
Regards. Jingby ( talk) 18:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I doubt if somebody will read this and face the facts: [7], [8] Jingby ( talk) 18:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Please, tell, me one reason for adding this flags. Provide only one non-nationalistic reason. But dont try to say the "uprising was ethnic Macedonian ". The poeple behind the uprising self-identified as Bulgarians, were described as Bulgarians and used Bulgarian symbols. It's written in the official documents of IMORO, also. Just read the articles in Wikipedia. Jingby ( talk) 09:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Тука спаѓа и книгата на Христо Силјанов, првиот том на "Ослободителните борби на Македонија", кој на македонската јавност се презентира 75 години по неговото излегување од печат во Софија. Без разлика на пробугарската ориентација на авторот, изданието претставува можеби досега најдобро напишана книга за македонската револуционерна борба и за Илинденското востание. Поздравувајќи ги присутните, нејзиниот автор, академик Катарџиев, подвлече дека книгата е пишана со намера да даде објективен, деполитизиран пресек на тоа за што се борел и го доживеал македонскиот народ во тие сто години. "Единствена идеолошка премиса е постоењето на македонската нација и на македонската држава", рече тој." Jingby ( talk) 10:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The flags were used by people and organisation with Bulgarian consciousness, but I am not going to add this flag anywhere in the list of Bulgarian flags. We have to be tolerant. Jingby ( talk) 12:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, I give you 24 hours to prove both flags were used in 1903 by ethnic Macedonians or in Republic of Macedonia and both flags were not used in Ottoman Empire in 1903 from Bulgarians, Greeks and Aromanians. If reliable references will not be provided as until now, I will revert your stupid nationalstic propaganda again. Jingby ( talk) 07:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The first time in its history that Macedonia was recognized as a different entity was in 1934 by the
Comintern. During the Second World War, Tito admitted that the partisan units from Macedonia represented their own nationality and in 1946 Macedonia was given equal status as a constituent republic within the new Yugoslav Federation.
[9] - Macedonia, a Surprising Country, Anamaria G. Dutceac – Segesten, Department of Government and Politics, University of Maryland at College Park.
Jingby (
talk)
07:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, I am waiting no more. It is clear, you have any arguments. However I decided to accept the ideas of Future and Kekrops as compromise and to leave the flag from Krushevo, despite the fact, it was used by Bulgarians, Greek Slavophones, Greek Latinophones and Aromanians. But I am going to remove the black-red flag from IMRO, which have been used from this organisation till today as official flag, i.e. this is a flag from political organisation, not historical flag. This flag is uploaded also in Wikimedia as official IMRO flag see here:
[10] and also can be seen on many pictures as IMRO - flag including uploaded as oficcial IMRO logo (see below). Another casual examples:
Today flag from Bulgarian IMRO organisation in Madrid ,
Today Bulgarian IMRO flag used from local Bulgarians in RoM in 2008 ,
The leader from Bulgarian IMRO, Krasimir Karakachanov, the red-black flags appears rear him. This flag is also official flag from IMRO in RoM. The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms - see here:
[11] This flag was never used in Ilinden uprising, nor in the next 20 years. You can provide any reliable reference about this nonsence, I am shure, you too. It appeared first in 1920-s and any info is about ideas this flag to be adоpted as flag from the Macedonian state before 1990. During the Uprising every local IMRO organisation had own banner as this banners shown below or the next:
The banner from Загоричани (Βασιλειάς), or this one:
he banner from
Smolyan , or this one:
The banner from Заберново. Also, I will be correct. I will remove only this political flag presented here as flag from the Ilinden Uprising. Please, learn the history before your manipulations. See below another examples:
right|thumb|150px|VMRO-BG logo.
~
References
Jingiby, the anon with the New Jersey IP 98.* is User:Mactruth, a legitimate editor.
But, Jingiby and Mactruth, you both know that you are not in a very good position to test your luck about revert warring, right?
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Right, but this is not an argument to tolerate the nationalostic POV not supported from any arguments. The topic was locked but the Macedonists provided any reliable references. Now again blind reverts on shifts and bla-bla. Jingby ( talk) 10:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Reliable sourced articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. Regards! See: Wikipedia:Verifiability Jingby ( talk) 14:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable. Jingby ( talk) 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposal of national flag - Image by António Martins, 19 February 1999
A red over black flag was proposed as the national Macedonian flag in 1903 but was never officially adopted.
Jaume Ollé, 24 October 1998
The black and red flag is used today by the football club Vardar from Skopje. His supporters are called Komiti (fighters for freedom). The real Macedonian flag was red with a golden gun and knife crossed in saltire in the middle of the flag, or in the upper left corner of the flag. The red background symbolized the blood of all Macedonians who had died or were about to die for the freedom of Macedonia. The golden gun and knife meant fight till death, and death for every one who will spy and betray the oath they had given in the name of freedom of Macedonia.
Goce G., 18 March 2001
The traditional Macedonian flag had two equal horizontal parts, the upper half being red and the lower black. This traditional Macedonian flag shad also a symbolic meaning - the same meaning as the slogan of the Macedonian fighters from the beginning of the century: "Freedom (red) or Death (black)". During the 1903 Ilinden uprising and the Kruševo republic the formal flag of Macedonian fighters was black and red.
Željko Heimer, 13 March 2002
Red color might mean freedom, but the original meaning was the blood of all Macedonians who died fighting for the freedom of their motherland, Macedonia. The black color symbolized the death of Goce Delčev, the ideologist of Macedonian freedom movement in the late 1890s and the beginning of the XXth century, more accurately, until 4 May 1903, when he was killed after having been surrounded by the Turk soldiers in the village of Banica, now in Greece.
Goče G., 18 March 2001
Eh, Macedonists ... Jingby ( talk) 12:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Official flag of VMRO-DPMNE
Article 5 of the party statutes says:
The Party has a coat of arms, a flag and an anthem.
The Party coat of arms is a stylized-shaped lion with a crown in gold colour pictured on a red shield. Above the shield is a red ribbon with yellow letters inscribed 1893-1990, and below the shield on a red ribbon is isnscribed with yellow letters the name of the party VMRO-DPMNE.
The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms.
The flag and the coat of arms of the party are shown on the party website. However, the statutes mentioned above clearly state that the emblem should be placed in upper left corner, not in the middle as shown on that image.
Željko Heimer, 20 November 2001
1893 is the year when the Macedonian national-liberation organization called VMRO was formed and the year 1990 symbolizes the year when VMRO-DPMNE was formed, claiming to be the successor of the historical VMRO.
Zdravko Saveski, 20 October 2002 Jingby ( talk) 13:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
The statute of Bulgarian Party VMRO-BND, 2008 (in Bulgarian) Art. 3. Par 1. Знаме с правоъгълна форма, разделено на две равни части, като горната част е в червен цвят, а долната - в черен и със златен надпис в средата ВМРО-БНД. Rough translation: Banner with rectangle form and divided in two equal parts. The upper part is in red and the lower part is in black colour. [12]
The statute of Macedonian Party VMRO-DPMNE, 2008 (In Macedonian) Article 5, Par. 3: Партиското знаме е со димензии со однос 2:1 по должина, поделено на црвено-црни полиња, чиј сооднос е еден спрема еден, а во горниот лев агол на црвена основа е поставен партискиот грб. Rough translation: The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms. [13] Jingby ( talk) 14:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Според мои сознанија, ВМРО е формирана на 17 јуни 1920 година од Тодор Александров. Токму на 70-годишнината од тој чин, на 17 јуни 1990 година, се одржа основачкиот Конгрес на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, што не е случајно. Оваа партија го зеде за свој симбол знамето на врховистичката ВМРО на Ванчо Михајлов: црвено-црно со златен лав. [14] According to an article from the Macedonian journalist Spase Shuplinovski in the Macedonian mainstream daily newspaper Utrinski vesnik - issue 1166, October 16, 2006 the flag of the Macedonian party VMRO - DPMNE was adopted from Ivan Mihaylov's IMRO, which was established in 1920 and was banned in 1934. Jingby ( talk) 15:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
100 години Вътрешна Македоно - Одринска Революционна организация ISBN-10: 9548187108, стр. 7 [15] Съставители и редактори: проф. д-р Д. Мичев, доц. Д. Гоцев, Македонски научен институт — София 1994, 100 years IMARO, (in Bulgarian) ISBN-10: 9548187108, Publisher: Macedonian Scientifis Institute, Authors: Professor D. Michev, Ph.D. D. Gotsev, Sofia - 1994, p. 7.
"...Важна национална характеристика па ВМОРО-ВМРО са и символите, с които тя си служи евангелието с кръстосан нож и револвер, националния трибагреник, революционния химн „Изгрей зора на свободата", революционното черно-червено знаме с изправен лъв и с надпис „Свобода или смърт...". It is description of the symbols of IMRO including the red-black flag. Jingby ( talk) 19:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Image located by Dov Gutterman at http://www.bulgariaonline.bg/macedonia/
Flag with initials used on it. The Bulgarian/Macedonian name that sounds something like "Vnutrashnya Makedonska Revolucionarna Organizacija." BMRO fought primarily against Turks for the independence of Bulgaria and Macedonia, and as might be seen from the flag, the ideology was anarchic-revolutionary (as were the methods). The group was soon (at the beginning of the 20th Century) split between those wanting Macedonia as a part of Bulgaria and those struggling for the independence of Macedonia. Therefore, to cut the story short, today we have VMRO both in modern Bulgaria and Macedonia (where it is called VMRO-DPMNE), both being modern democratic parties that have long forsaken their anarcho-revolutionary methods. Željko Heimer, 24 February 2002 Jingby ( talk) 13:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
This site is not reliable source. Jingby ( talk) 14:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
It is clear you are a nationalist with the use of racial slurs such as Macedonist. I have read your statements, the problem is you argue to use reliable sources, but put your foot in your mouth by not even following your own rules, let's look at your sources:
You in essence give your own opinion with "sources" with are either unreliable or bias, then claim that is good enough to do as you please without discussion. These are the sources I gave:
Remember, it is as easy for me to create a map or flag then update it to an image uploader and state its from the "Republic of Macedonia Museum" as it is for you to use Pro-Macedonia which has already done the work for you. Your argument is an opinion with nationalist emotions, nothing else, and you have changed your argument many times in an attempt to find one that works, but they hold no ground. Mactruth ( talk) 19:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, your stupid cunnings are boring. Even Bulgarian Academy of Science is biased and your free sites and their comments are reliable source? As per Britanica, your biased and sketchy comments on the texts have nothing to do with its content. FOTW (Flags of the World) is a site originally established by Giuseppe Bottasini, and devoted to vexillology. The site is fed with news and images posted to the FOTW mailing list and with other contributions from interested readers and visitors!!! Jingby ( talk) 06:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Cukiger, If there was some Bulgarian propaganda in XIX c. in MK, the main performers were Macedonian Bulgarians, especially until 1870. I didn't find a reason to cry, on account of the source you pointed above. The macedonistic propaganda uses this "source" actively, but I didn't red some exlantions who were these early macedonists, why only one author wrote about them? If you red something serious, help me with information and point it. On my side I can point BG historiography in which this article have explanation as a part of the personal hostilities berween Slaveykov and Shapkarev ("one of our confreres").-- GrigorG ( talk) 19:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
We have heard from the Macedonists many times that they are not apparently Bulgarians but Macedonians, progeny of the ancient Macedonians, and we have always waited for some proof of this, but such proof never came. Macedonists never showed the basis of this opinion of theirs. They persist in their Macedonian origin but they never convince anyone of notice. We read in History that there was a small people called Macedonians; but we never knew who they were or of what tribe, and the few words in Greek writers refute completely such a proposition. Furthermore, after the conquest of Macedonia by the Romans, there is not even a trace of such Macedonians. We find on this place various other peoples; however, we do not see any Macedonians. What became of them and in which people they transformed we do not know because history do not tell us. ...
... Some Macedonists differentiate themselves from Bulgarians by no other reason than this: they say, are pure Slavs while Bulgarians are Tatars (sic), and I don't know what else. ... It is not hard to show all the groundlessness of such proposition. When Bulgars fused with Slavs not only in Macedonia but also in other regions of the Balkan peninsula, I don't know why the Macedonian fusion would be of one kind while the Thracian and Bulgarian fusion would be of another kind. Such [Macedonists'] reasons can be given only by stupid children who still don't know what is a historic evidence.
This is Petko Slaveykov at his best. This words are even truer today than when they were written. About the history and reasons for the Macedonism there are many books. In English I can point to the introductory chapters of the Carnegie Report (written by American and French authors). It has much to do with the assimilatory doctrine of Ilija Garashanin "Nacertanje" which was implemented very stringently in Macedonia ("the south of Old Serbia) by Cvijic and Novakovic. -- Lantonov ( talk) 11:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
"Come brothers, Moslems, come and fight against your and our enemies! Come, under the flag of autonomous Macedonia!" - source I believe this statement was made in 1903, but I was wondering if people could get more information on it, because if the statement was not referring to Krusevo Republic, I believe it may represent the proposed flag of Macedonia in 1903. Mactruth ( talk) 14:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I could not find your argument that you wrote in the cliff notes, so I removed it for now. Please provide the statement. Mactruth ( talk) 15:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Read again the text, please:
Иако, да бидеме искрени, на манифестациите каде што се појавуваат партиите со предзнак ВМРО, има едни со 16-то кракото сонце, едни со лав, едни со црвено-црното знаме на Александров и т.н. "On the manifestations the parties with abreviation IMRO it has been carried ... the red-black flag of (Todor) Alexandrov...
Have you seen it in the text or no? Jingby ( talk) 15:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
It was founded in 1923 from Sofia University professors and scholars, among the Macedonian Bulgarians. It was concerned with Macedonia and all branches of the study of its history, culture and social life.
Macedonian Scientific Institute is used also as source for example from the Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe - Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) see here: [16]
If the source was Krasimir Karakachanov I will agree with you, but this is a scientific institution sinse 1920s.
As source here is the book: 100 години Вътрешна Македоно - Одринска Революционна организация ISBN-10: 9548187108, стр. 7 [15] Съставители и редактори: проф. д-р Д. Мичев, доц. Д. Гоцев, Македонски научен институт — София 1994, 100 years IMARO, (in Bulgarian) ISBN-10: 9548187108, Publisher: Macedonian Scientific Institute, Authors: Professor D. Michev, Ph.D. D. Gotsev, Sofia - 1994, p. 7. [17] "...Важна национална характеристика па ВМОРО-ВМРО са и символите, с които тя си служи евангелието с кръстосан нож и револвер, националния трибагреник, революционния химн „Изгрей зора на свободата", революционното черно-червено знаме с изправен лъв и с надпис „Свобода или смърт...". It is description of the historical symbols of IMRO including the red-black flag.
I do not see here nothing biased in the fact that the black-red flag is described as IMRO flag as in all other as in this two sources for example:
1. The statute of Bulgarian Party VMRO-BND, 2008 (in Bulgarian) Art. 3. Par 1. Знаме с правоъгълна форма, разделено на две равни части, като горната част е в червен цвят, а долната - в черен и със златен надпис в средата ВМРО-БНД. Rough translation: Banner with rectangle form and divided in two equal parts. The upper part is in red and the lower part is in black colour. [18]
2. The statute of Macedonian Party VMRO-DPMNE, 2008 (In Macedonian) Article 5, Par. 3: Партиското знаме е со димензии со однос 2:1 по должина, поделено на црвено-црни полиња, чиј сооднос е еден спрема еден, а во горниот лев агол на црвена основа е поставен партискиот грб. Rough translation: The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms. [19]
Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context. Please Mactruth, explain us what in this context is biased, especially in the flag-description as red-blag historical flag of IMRO. If no, I am going to readd this book again. Jingby ( talk) 15:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I will revert you again. All editors and all sources have biases—what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. See: [20] Bulgarian position - Bulgarian scientific source. Normal. IMRO in this period was heavy pro - Bulgarian and you know that. Explain what is biased in the position, that the flag is Bulgarian or in the book, or in the site in this occasion. Stop blind reverts, please. See your talk page. You are strictly required to precede every revert with a meaningful explanation and attempt for discussion on the relevant talk pag. Regards. 18:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Why was removed this citation from "Who are the Macedonians" by Hugh Poulton - p. 57. It is in integral connection with the Bulgarian position about the character of the flags used in Krushevo in 1903. If reliable arguments are not provided I will readd this text. Jingby ( talk) 16:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
The following images also have this problem:
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 10:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
The tags stay until someone explains which is the ethnic flag (with RS of sourse) and gives a proper explanation what the VMRO and Krushova Republic flags are doing here. We know that they are here because of the tag-team edit-warring of Cukiger and Mactruth and since this is the only sheer reason for their inclusion here, the article is utterly POVish. Do not revert me (Mactruth and Cukiger) if you do not have valid reasons for this (stated on the talkpage) -- Laveol T 12:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
lol i like how instead of the correct "1995-present" there is "1995- ".. like it's eternally changing every other 5 years or something xD 150.140.226.104 ( talk) 10:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove flags that have references. That is count as vandalism and offend to the users.Thanks.-- MacedonianBoy Oui? 22:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I invite you again to give any valid reasons why the IMRO and Krushevo flags should be here. They have nothing to do with the modern Macedonian state and were put on the page to represent some sort of false continuity between a pro-Bulgarian organization and an uprising of again what are considered Bulgarian people. You're supposed to give a thorough explanation for every revert you perform, Mactruth. -- Laveol T 01:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
The article is not about political parties but about 'Flags of the Republic of Macedonia' { /info/en/?search=Flags_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#Historical_flags}. The caption for the IMRO flag rightly describes it as, "Historical flag of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) used by political parties in Bulgaria and Republic of Macedonia until now". This makes is clear that it is a political party flag, including in Bulgaria. Therefore it makes sense to delete it. Politis ( talk) 23:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
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Flags of the Republic of Macedonia →
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Tell, me the reason for adding the flag, Cukiger. Provide me one non-nationalistic reason. But dont try to sell the ultra stuff that you'll be trying to add. No, it was not an "uprising of the Macedonian people". I'm not adding this flag anywhere in the list of Bulgarian flags although the poeple behind the uprising self-identified as Bulgarians, were identified as Bulgarians and ued Bulgarian symbols. It's even written in the documents of IMRO. In the interest of consensus and to avoid never-ending edit-wars this flag best not be put in controversial situations like this one. You have no good reasons as to why the flag should be here and rescruiting other people to revert it is not doing you a good favour. -- Laveol T 15:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you gonna try and discuss the issue or you're just make countless reverts? I aks you again to provide reasons why this should be included here. And there was nothing in the Pulevski article to support your claims. Are you making fun of the other editors? -- Laveol T 19:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What shall we discuss? There's nothing to discuss about. The uprising was organized by Macedonians and Vlachs from Macedonia. If you think it was Bulgarian, ok, i don't care. Read what Pulevski has written, dumby. That Macedonians are a people, not a subgroup of Bulgars. Cukiger ( talk) 03:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Laveol, stop the random accusations of sockpuppetry and meatpuppeting, please. That's not an excuse for revert-warring. And don't just bring Gligan in any time some guy disagrees with you. Discuss before reverting, people. Balkan Fever 03:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
The black - red flag of IMRO apeared first in the 1920-s. In 1903 Ilinden - Preobrajenie Uprising insurgents ...despite these promises the insurgents flew Bulgarian flags everywhere and in many places the uprising did entail attacks on Muslim Turks and Albanians... "Who Are the Macedonians?" - Page: 57, by Hugh Pulton. [1] Jingby ( talk) 10:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
References
Please replace Image:Flag of Macedonia 1991-95.svg with Image:Flag of the Republic of Macedonia 1991-1995.svg. -- CecilK ( talk) 12:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC) {{ editprotected}}
How about this flag and its connection to RoM?
After the First World War the territory of the present-day Republic of Macedonia came under the direct rule of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and was sometimes termed "Southern Serbia". Together with a portion of today's Serbia, it belonged officially to the newly formed Vardar Banovina. An intense program of Serbianization was implemented during the 1920s and 1930s when Belgrade enforced a Serbian cultural assimilation process on the region. Between the two world wars in Vardar Banovina, the regional Macedonian dialects were declared as Serbian and the Serbian language was introduced in the schools and administration as official language. There was implemented a governmental policy of assassinations and assimilation. The Serbian administration in Vardar Banovina felt insecure and that provoked it's brutal reprisals on the local peasant population. IMRO began sending armed bands called cheti into Greek and Yugoslav Macedonia and Thrace to assassinate officials and stir up the spirit of the oppressed population. In 1923 and 1924 during the apogee of interwar military activity according to IMRO statistics in the region of Yugoslav (Vardar) Macedonia operated 53 chetas (armed bands), 36 of which penetrated from Bulgaria, 12 were local and 5 entered from Albania. The aggregate membership of the bands was 3245 komitas (guerilla rebels) led by 79 voivodas (commanders), 54 subcommanders, 41 secretaries and 193 couriers. 119 fights and 73 terroristic acts were documented. Serbian casualties were 304 army and gendarmery officers, soldiers and paramilitary fighters, more than 1300 were wounded. IMRO lost 68 voivodas and komitas, hundreds were wounded.
Where is the connection to RoM. I am going to remove it, if proves will not be provided. Jingby ( talk) 07:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Vlado Chernozemski entered the region of Vardar Banovina with IMRO bands and participated in more than 15 battles with the Serbian police. At one point, Chernozemski planned to enter the League of Nations building in Paris and detonate himself to protest against the passivity of the world organization over the Macedonian Question but never carried out the plot. He assassinated Alexander I of Yugoslavia in the port of Marseille, France on October 9, 1934, and was himself killed immediately afterwards, 10 days before his 37th birthday.
Why died this men and the others as him? With an aim the flag of Kingdom of Yugoslavia to be shown as Macedonian or what? Jingby ( talk) 17:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Enough reasons were given why the flag shouldn't be here. None were provided for the opposite. Give some now or it'll have to be removed again. -- Laveol T 10:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Aren't you tired of your own propaganda? Well, I am, and I am sure others are too. Cukiger ( talk) 15:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
No reason or prove were given! Jingby ( talk) 16:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Krste Misirkov, a highly controversial writer who alternated between pan-Bulgarian and pan-Macedonian nationalism throughout his lifetime described the IMORO in his pro-Macedonian publication "On Macedonian Matters" written in the wake of the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising as Bulgarian officials working for Bulgarian interests and linked in name, and in church and school matters, to the people of Bulgaria, their country and their interests. Misirkov wrote:
We can call the Uprising whatever we like, but in fact it was only a partial movement. It was, and still is, an affair of the Exarchists: that is, a Bulgarian ploy to settle the Macedonian question to its own advantage by creating a Bulgarian Macedonia... If the autonomy of Macedonia should result from the present Uprising, the Macedonian question will be settled not to the advantage of the Macedonians but of the Bulgarians, for the Committee, as we have seen earlier, is working behind a Bulgarian front... Thus the reason why the Uprising failed is perfectly clear: from the very outset it was established on the wrong basis instead of being a general Macedonian Uprising it was a partial insurrection with Bulgarian overtones. The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.
And how this flags from Ilinden Uprising and IMORO are historical flags of your country now? Jingby ( talk) 07:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.
The following is an excerpt that describes this process from Palmer and King. It describes how language, history and religion were used to develop the "Macedonian" ethnicity:
It is reasonable to hold that, prior to World War II, the Slavs of Yugoslav Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarians [..]
The Yugoslav communist policy has encouraged the national consciousness of the Macedonian Slavs [..]
Sources:
1. Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65 , ISBN 0691043566
2. Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, CT Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200 Jingby ( talk) 16:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This is Bulgarian school in Krushevo from this period. The people considered themselves Bulgarians. As the British researcher of the Balkans H. N. Brailsford wrote in his book Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future: "The moment for which the Bulgarian population had been preparing for ten years arrived on the festival of the Prophet Elias — the evening of Sunday, August the 2nd, 1903." - " H. N. Brailsford, "Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future", Methuen & Co., London, 1906, part V. The Bulgarian movement, chapter 11. The General Rising of 1903 in Monastir, p. 148. Jingby ( talk) 18:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Jingiby keeps deleting this flag without a source, even though I kept stating it was a predessecor for an autonomous or independent Macedonia. FOTW Now stop editing warring because of your POV. Mactruth 98.243.158.123 ( talk) 16:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is not nationalistic phantasy forum. In this encyclopedia exist articles with added references and sources. Pleace, read them:
2. IMRO
I do not state also, removed flags are Bulgarian or Serbian, regardless the fact they were used mainly by Bulgarians [2] [3] [4] [5] and Serbians.(also Aromanians, Grecomans, Croats and Slovens) But they were not symbols of ethnic Macedonians nor or of RoM. Especially the flag of IMRO from 1920-s. It was terrorist and nationalistic, hard pro - Bulgarian organisation.
And again;
According to Hugh Pulton in 1903 in Krushevo the insurgents ...despite these promises the insurgents flew Bulgarian flags everywhere and in many places the uprising did entail attacks on Muslim Turks and Albanians... "Who Are the Macedonians?" - Page: 57, [6]
Regards. Jingby ( talk) 18:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I doubt if somebody will read this and face the facts: [7], [8] Jingby ( talk) 18:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Please, tell, me one reason for adding this flags. Provide only one non-nationalistic reason. But dont try to say the "uprising was ethnic Macedonian ". The poeple behind the uprising self-identified as Bulgarians, were described as Bulgarians and used Bulgarian symbols. It's written in the official documents of IMORO, also. Just read the articles in Wikipedia. Jingby ( talk) 09:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Тука спаѓа и книгата на Христо Силјанов, првиот том на "Ослободителните борби на Македонија", кој на македонската јавност се презентира 75 години по неговото излегување од печат во Софија. Без разлика на пробугарската ориентација на авторот, изданието претставува можеби досега најдобро напишана книга за македонската револуционерна борба и за Илинденското востание. Поздравувајќи ги присутните, нејзиниот автор, академик Катарџиев, подвлече дека книгата е пишана со намера да даде објективен, деполитизиран пресек на тоа за што се борел и го доживеал македонскиот народ во тие сто години. "Единствена идеолошка премиса е постоењето на македонската нација и на македонската држава", рече тој." Jingby ( talk) 10:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The flags were used by people and organisation with Bulgarian consciousness, but I am not going to add this flag anywhere in the list of Bulgarian flags. We have to be tolerant. Jingby ( talk) 12:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, I give you 24 hours to prove both flags were used in 1903 by ethnic Macedonians or in Republic of Macedonia and both flags were not used in Ottoman Empire in 1903 from Bulgarians, Greeks and Aromanians. If reliable references will not be provided as until now, I will revert your stupid nationalstic propaganda again. Jingby ( talk) 07:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The first time in its history that Macedonia was recognized as a different entity was in 1934 by the
Comintern. During the Second World War, Tito admitted that the partisan units from Macedonia represented their own nationality and in 1946 Macedonia was given equal status as a constituent republic within the new Yugoslav Federation.
[9] - Macedonia, a Surprising Country, Anamaria G. Dutceac – Segesten, Department of Government and Politics, University of Maryland at College Park.
Jingby (
talk)
07:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, I am waiting no more. It is clear, you have any arguments. However I decided to accept the ideas of Future and Kekrops as compromise and to leave the flag from Krushevo, despite the fact, it was used by Bulgarians, Greek Slavophones, Greek Latinophones and Aromanians. But I am going to remove the black-red flag from IMRO, which have been used from this organisation till today as official flag, i.e. this is a flag from political organisation, not historical flag. This flag is uploaded also in Wikimedia as official IMRO flag see here:
[10] and also can be seen on many pictures as IMRO - flag including uploaded as oficcial IMRO logo (see below). Another casual examples:
Today flag from Bulgarian IMRO organisation in Madrid ,
Today Bulgarian IMRO flag used from local Bulgarians in RoM in 2008 ,
The leader from Bulgarian IMRO, Krasimir Karakachanov, the red-black flags appears rear him. This flag is also official flag from IMRO in RoM. The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms - see here:
[11] This flag was never used in Ilinden uprising, nor in the next 20 years. You can provide any reliable reference about this nonsence, I am shure, you too. It appeared first in 1920-s and any info is about ideas this flag to be adоpted as flag from the Macedonian state before 1990. During the Uprising every local IMRO organisation had own banner as this banners shown below or the next:
The banner from Загоричани (Βασιλειάς), or this one:
he banner from
Smolyan , or this one:
The banner from Заберново. Also, I will be correct. I will remove only this political flag presented here as flag from the Ilinden Uprising. Please, learn the history before your manipulations. See below another examples:
right|thumb|150px|VMRO-BG logo.
~
References
Jingiby, the anon with the New Jersey IP 98.* is User:Mactruth, a legitimate editor.
But, Jingiby and Mactruth, you both know that you are not in a very good position to test your luck about revert warring, right?
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Right, but this is not an argument to tolerate the nationalostic POV not supported from any arguments. The topic was locked but the Macedonists provided any reliable references. Now again blind reverts on shifts and bla-bla. Jingby ( talk) 10:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Reliable sourced articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. Regards! See: Wikipedia:Verifiability Jingby ( talk) 14:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable. Jingby ( talk) 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposal of national flag - Image by António Martins, 19 February 1999
A red over black flag was proposed as the national Macedonian flag in 1903 but was never officially adopted.
Jaume Ollé, 24 October 1998
The black and red flag is used today by the football club Vardar from Skopje. His supporters are called Komiti (fighters for freedom). The real Macedonian flag was red with a golden gun and knife crossed in saltire in the middle of the flag, or in the upper left corner of the flag. The red background symbolized the blood of all Macedonians who had died or were about to die for the freedom of Macedonia. The golden gun and knife meant fight till death, and death for every one who will spy and betray the oath they had given in the name of freedom of Macedonia.
Goce G., 18 March 2001
The traditional Macedonian flag had two equal horizontal parts, the upper half being red and the lower black. This traditional Macedonian flag shad also a symbolic meaning - the same meaning as the slogan of the Macedonian fighters from the beginning of the century: "Freedom (red) or Death (black)". During the 1903 Ilinden uprising and the Kruševo republic the formal flag of Macedonian fighters was black and red.
Željko Heimer, 13 March 2002
Red color might mean freedom, but the original meaning was the blood of all Macedonians who died fighting for the freedom of their motherland, Macedonia. The black color symbolized the death of Goce Delčev, the ideologist of Macedonian freedom movement in the late 1890s and the beginning of the XXth century, more accurately, until 4 May 1903, when he was killed after having been surrounded by the Turk soldiers in the village of Banica, now in Greece.
Goče G., 18 March 2001
Eh, Macedonists ... Jingby ( talk) 12:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Official flag of VMRO-DPMNE
Article 5 of the party statutes says:
The Party has a coat of arms, a flag and an anthem.
The Party coat of arms is a stylized-shaped lion with a crown in gold colour pictured on a red shield. Above the shield is a red ribbon with yellow letters inscribed 1893-1990, and below the shield on a red ribbon is isnscribed with yellow letters the name of the party VMRO-DPMNE.
The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms.
The flag and the coat of arms of the party are shown on the party website. However, the statutes mentioned above clearly state that the emblem should be placed in upper left corner, not in the middle as shown on that image.
Željko Heimer, 20 November 2001
1893 is the year when the Macedonian national-liberation organization called VMRO was formed and the year 1990 symbolizes the year when VMRO-DPMNE was formed, claiming to be the successor of the historical VMRO.
Zdravko Saveski, 20 October 2002 Jingby ( talk) 13:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
The statute of Bulgarian Party VMRO-BND, 2008 (in Bulgarian) Art. 3. Par 1. Знаме с правоъгълна форма, разделено на две равни части, като горната част е в червен цвят, а долната - в черен и със златен надпис в средата ВМРО-БНД. Rough translation: Banner with rectangle form and divided in two equal parts. The upper part is in red and the lower part is in black colour. [12]
The statute of Macedonian Party VMRO-DPMNE, 2008 (In Macedonian) Article 5, Par. 3: Партиското знаме е со димензии со однос 2:1 по должина, поделено на црвено-црни полиња, чиј сооднос е еден спрема еден, а во горниот лев агол на црвена основа е поставен партискиот грб. Rough translation: The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms. [13] Jingby ( talk) 14:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Според мои сознанија, ВМРО е формирана на 17 јуни 1920 година од Тодор Александров. Токму на 70-годишнината од тој чин, на 17 јуни 1990 година, се одржа основачкиот Конгрес на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, што не е случајно. Оваа партија го зеде за свој симбол знамето на врховистичката ВМРО на Ванчо Михајлов: црвено-црно со златен лав. [14] According to an article from the Macedonian journalist Spase Shuplinovski in the Macedonian mainstream daily newspaper Utrinski vesnik - issue 1166, October 16, 2006 the flag of the Macedonian party VMRO - DPMNE was adopted from Ivan Mihaylov's IMRO, which was established in 1920 and was banned in 1934. Jingby ( talk) 15:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
100 години Вътрешна Македоно - Одринска Революционна организация ISBN-10: 9548187108, стр. 7 [15] Съставители и редактори: проф. д-р Д. Мичев, доц. Д. Гоцев, Македонски научен институт — София 1994, 100 years IMARO, (in Bulgarian) ISBN-10: 9548187108, Publisher: Macedonian Scientifis Institute, Authors: Professor D. Michev, Ph.D. D. Gotsev, Sofia - 1994, p. 7.
"...Важна национална характеристика па ВМОРО-ВМРО са и символите, с които тя си служи евангелието с кръстосан нож и револвер, националния трибагреник, революционния химн „Изгрей зора на свободата", революционното черно-червено знаме с изправен лъв и с надпис „Свобода или смърт...". It is description of the symbols of IMRO including the red-black flag. Jingby ( talk) 19:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Image located by Dov Gutterman at http://www.bulgariaonline.bg/macedonia/
Flag with initials used on it. The Bulgarian/Macedonian name that sounds something like "Vnutrashnya Makedonska Revolucionarna Organizacija." BMRO fought primarily against Turks for the independence of Bulgaria and Macedonia, and as might be seen from the flag, the ideology was anarchic-revolutionary (as were the methods). The group was soon (at the beginning of the 20th Century) split between those wanting Macedonia as a part of Bulgaria and those struggling for the independence of Macedonia. Therefore, to cut the story short, today we have VMRO both in modern Bulgaria and Macedonia (where it is called VMRO-DPMNE), both being modern democratic parties that have long forsaken their anarcho-revolutionary methods. Željko Heimer, 24 February 2002 Jingby ( talk) 13:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
This site is not reliable source. Jingby ( talk) 14:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
It is clear you are a nationalist with the use of racial slurs such as Macedonist. I have read your statements, the problem is you argue to use reliable sources, but put your foot in your mouth by not even following your own rules, let's look at your sources:
You in essence give your own opinion with "sources" with are either unreliable or bias, then claim that is good enough to do as you please without discussion. These are the sources I gave:
Remember, it is as easy for me to create a map or flag then update it to an image uploader and state its from the "Republic of Macedonia Museum" as it is for you to use Pro-Macedonia which has already done the work for you. Your argument is an opinion with nationalist emotions, nothing else, and you have changed your argument many times in an attempt to find one that works, but they hold no ground. Mactruth ( talk) 19:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, your stupid cunnings are boring. Even Bulgarian Academy of Science is biased and your free sites and their comments are reliable source? As per Britanica, your biased and sketchy comments on the texts have nothing to do with its content. FOTW (Flags of the World) is a site originally established by Giuseppe Bottasini, and devoted to vexillology. The site is fed with news and images posted to the FOTW mailing list and with other contributions from interested readers and visitors!!! Jingby ( talk) 06:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Cukiger, If there was some Bulgarian propaganda in XIX c. in MK, the main performers were Macedonian Bulgarians, especially until 1870. I didn't find a reason to cry, on account of the source you pointed above. The macedonistic propaganda uses this "source" actively, but I didn't red some exlantions who were these early macedonists, why only one author wrote about them? If you red something serious, help me with information and point it. On my side I can point BG historiography in which this article have explanation as a part of the personal hostilities berween Slaveykov and Shapkarev ("one of our confreres").-- GrigorG ( talk) 19:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
We have heard from the Macedonists many times that they are not apparently Bulgarians but Macedonians, progeny of the ancient Macedonians, and we have always waited for some proof of this, but such proof never came. Macedonists never showed the basis of this opinion of theirs. They persist in their Macedonian origin but they never convince anyone of notice. We read in History that there was a small people called Macedonians; but we never knew who they were or of what tribe, and the few words in Greek writers refute completely such a proposition. Furthermore, after the conquest of Macedonia by the Romans, there is not even a trace of such Macedonians. We find on this place various other peoples; however, we do not see any Macedonians. What became of them and in which people they transformed we do not know because history do not tell us. ...
... Some Macedonists differentiate themselves from Bulgarians by no other reason than this: they say, are pure Slavs while Bulgarians are Tatars (sic), and I don't know what else. ... It is not hard to show all the groundlessness of such proposition. When Bulgars fused with Slavs not only in Macedonia but also in other regions of the Balkan peninsula, I don't know why the Macedonian fusion would be of one kind while the Thracian and Bulgarian fusion would be of another kind. Such [Macedonists'] reasons can be given only by stupid children who still don't know what is a historic evidence.
This is Petko Slaveykov at his best. This words are even truer today than when they were written. About the history and reasons for the Macedonism there are many books. In English I can point to the introductory chapters of the Carnegie Report (written by American and French authors). It has much to do with the assimilatory doctrine of Ilija Garashanin "Nacertanje" which was implemented very stringently in Macedonia ("the south of Old Serbia) by Cvijic and Novakovic. -- Lantonov ( talk) 11:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
"Come brothers, Moslems, come and fight against your and our enemies! Come, under the flag of autonomous Macedonia!" - source I believe this statement was made in 1903, but I was wondering if people could get more information on it, because if the statement was not referring to Krusevo Republic, I believe it may represent the proposed flag of Macedonia in 1903. Mactruth ( talk) 14:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I could not find your argument that you wrote in the cliff notes, so I removed it for now. Please provide the statement. Mactruth ( talk) 15:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Read again the text, please:
Иако, да бидеме искрени, на манифестациите каде што се појавуваат партиите со предзнак ВМРО, има едни со 16-то кракото сонце, едни со лав, едни со црвено-црното знаме на Александров и т.н. "On the manifestations the parties with abreviation IMRO it has been carried ... the red-black flag of (Todor) Alexandrov...
Have you seen it in the text or no? Jingby ( talk) 15:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
It was founded in 1923 from Sofia University professors and scholars, among the Macedonian Bulgarians. It was concerned with Macedonia and all branches of the study of its history, culture and social life.
Macedonian Scientific Institute is used also as source for example from the Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe - Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) see here: [16]
If the source was Krasimir Karakachanov I will agree with you, but this is a scientific institution sinse 1920s.
As source here is the book: 100 години Вътрешна Македоно - Одринска Революционна организация ISBN-10: 9548187108, стр. 7 [15] Съставители и редактори: проф. д-р Д. Мичев, доц. Д. Гоцев, Македонски научен институт — София 1994, 100 years IMARO, (in Bulgarian) ISBN-10: 9548187108, Publisher: Macedonian Scientific Institute, Authors: Professor D. Michev, Ph.D. D. Gotsev, Sofia - 1994, p. 7. [17] "...Важна национална характеристика па ВМОРО-ВМРО са и символите, с които тя си служи евангелието с кръстосан нож и револвер, националния трибагреник, революционния химн „Изгрей зора на свободата", революционното черно-червено знаме с изправен лъв и с надпис „Свобода или смърт...". It is description of the historical symbols of IMRO including the red-black flag.
I do not see here nothing biased in the fact that the black-red flag is described as IMRO flag as in all other as in this two sources for example:
1. The statute of Bulgarian Party VMRO-BND, 2008 (in Bulgarian) Art. 3. Par 1. Знаме с правоъгълна форма, разделено на две равни части, като горната част е в червен цвят, а долната - в черен и със златен надпис в средата ВМРО-БНД. Rough translation: Banner with rectangle form and divided in two equal parts. The upper part is in red and the lower part is in black colour. [18]
2. The statute of Macedonian Party VMRO-DPMNE, 2008 (In Macedonian) Article 5, Par. 3: Партиското знаме е со димензии со однос 2:1 по должина, поделено на црвено-црни полиња, чиј сооднос е еден спрема еден, а во горниот лев агол на црвена основа е поставен партискиот грб. Rough translation: The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms. [19]
Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context. Please Mactruth, explain us what in this context is biased, especially in the flag-description as red-blag historical flag of IMRO. If no, I am going to readd this book again. Jingby ( talk) 15:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I will revert you again. All editors and all sources have biases—what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. See: [20] Bulgarian position - Bulgarian scientific source. Normal. IMRO in this period was heavy pro - Bulgarian and you know that. Explain what is biased in the position, that the flag is Bulgarian or in the book, or in the site in this occasion. Stop blind reverts, please. See your talk page. You are strictly required to precede every revert with a meaningful explanation and attempt for discussion on the relevant talk pag. Regards. 18:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Why was removed this citation from "Who are the Macedonians" by Hugh Poulton - p. 57. It is in integral connection with the Bulgarian position about the character of the flags used in Krushevo in 1903. If reliable arguments are not provided I will readd this text. Jingby ( talk) 16:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 10:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
The tags stay until someone explains which is the ethnic flag (with RS of sourse) and gives a proper explanation what the VMRO and Krushova Republic flags are doing here. We know that they are here because of the tag-team edit-warring of Cukiger and Mactruth and since this is the only sheer reason for their inclusion here, the article is utterly POVish. Do not revert me (Mactruth and Cukiger) if you do not have valid reasons for this (stated on the talkpage) -- Laveol T 12:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
lol i like how instead of the correct "1995-present" there is "1995- ".. like it's eternally changing every other 5 years or something xD 150.140.226.104 ( talk) 10:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove flags that have references. That is count as vandalism and offend to the users.Thanks.-- MacedonianBoy Oui? 22:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I invite you again to give any valid reasons why the IMRO and Krushevo flags should be here. They have nothing to do with the modern Macedonian state and were put on the page to represent some sort of false continuity between a pro-Bulgarian organization and an uprising of again what are considered Bulgarian people. You're supposed to give a thorough explanation for every revert you perform, Mactruth. -- Laveol T 01:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
The article is not about political parties but about 'Flags of the Republic of Macedonia' { /info/en/?search=Flags_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#Historical_flags}. The caption for the IMRO flag rightly describes it as, "Historical flag of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) used by political parties in Bulgaria and Republic of Macedonia until now". This makes is clear that it is a political party flag, including in Bulgaria. Therefore it makes sense to delete it. Politis ( talk) 23:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Moved per others ( closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 15:37, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Flags of the Republic of Macedonia →
Flags of North Macedonia – New name of the state. –
Illegitimate Barrister (
talk •
contribs),
10:23, 13 February 2019 (UTC)