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Is the statement "more than 24 Rimac Nevera have been sold" based on reliable sources ?
The Rimac company has officially declared that they have already sold 50 cars [1] [2] and sources like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, Whichcar and Auto Bild also write that they've already sold 50.
For one side there is enough evidence to consider "more than 24 Neveras have been sold" as confirmed by reliable sources, while the other side disagrees, stating since there has been false information in the past, Rimac could be lying and the media would just copy what they say.
Is the statement "more than 24 Rimac Nevera have been sold" based on reliable sources ? Drachentötbär ( talk) 01:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
"...the first 50 are already sold."That suggests to me that they've been sold before being built. Since the criteria for inclusion in this list states 25 or more articles made, not sold, there would need to be sources stating that at least 25 cars have actually left the factory and been delivered to buyers. -- Sable232 ( talk) 15:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The outside input by Sable232 on our controversial point explained Verifiability, not truth. Original research claims don't matter. We should act according to the reliable sources which state that Rimac sold 50 Neveras and add the car to the list now. Drachentötbär ( talk) 22:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I took a look at the 2022 annual report and found out that the numbers from SoldierBoy12345's claim "annual report for 2022 income 12,41 million EUR with - 33,43 million EUR loss" don't exist there. It doesn't contradict the reliable sources which say that 50 Neveras were sold (i.e. how many contracts of sale for the Nevera were made). We do not know when payments were made or will be made for the cars ordered in 2018 and delivered in 2023 so it's pointless speculating which income should be written there. Reliable sources were given which directly support that more than 24 Neveras were sold, a controversial Facebook poster saying "If I'm a professional hater, he's a professional liar" doesn't even contradict this. Drachentötbär ( talk) 02:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
Whichcar: Just 150 Neveras will be made, with a production schedule of one car per week, and each will carry an eye watering price tag of AUD$3.1m. Such is the demand for Rimac’s product, however, that the first 50 are already sold.
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung: It takes five weeks to make a Nevera by hand, and the 50 copies that should be ready in the first year have already been sold. (translated from Einen Nevera herzustellen dauert in Handarbeit fünf Wochen, die 50 Exemplare, die im ersten Jahr fertig werden sollen, sind schon verkauft.)
Auto Bild: The plan is to build 150 Nevera. It is interesting that only around 50 of these have been sold so far. (translated from Der Plan sieht vor, 150 Nevera zu bauen. Interessant ist, dass davon bisher nur rund 50 Stück verkauft wurden.)
Neue Zürcher Zeitung: As a technical marvel full of superlatives, the Rimac Nevera is no bargain. Customers have to pay two million euros for it. And there are already quite a few of them. A third of the limited edition of 150 copies has already been sold. (translated from Der Rimac Nevera ist als technisches Wunderwerk voller Superlative allerdings kein Schnäppchen. Zwei Millionen Euro müssen die Kunden dafür schon bezahlen. Und von denen gibt es bereits einige. Die auf 150 Exemplare begrenzte Auflage ist bereits zu einem Drittel verkauft.)
This debate has gone on long enough - it is getting nowhere. I had a good read of the following:
In essence, they say that WP repeats what is found explicitly in published materials. They also say that WP does not do original research or synthesise information from other sources. If it is not stated explicitly then WP does not treat it as a fact.
In the above, we have multiple references saying that at least 50 copies of the Nevera have been sold. Not all of them may have been built and/or delivered but they have been reported in reliable sources as being sold. Therefore, WP treats this as a fact.
On the other hand, we have a claim that these references are merely repeating lies by Rimac. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But as long as the references are from reliable sources and there are no contradicting references explicitly saying that these are lies then WP must still treat the references as reporting facts.
Claims based on calculations from financial statements constitute original research and synthesis. WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH ban this and therefore WP cannot treat such theories as facts. We would need a reference to present this information and to explicitly say that 50 cars were not built. Note that a car being sold might (or might not) be effectively just a recording of the customer's name in a ledger and large sums of money might not necessarily change hands until the car is built and delivered in the future - this would not show up in annual financial statements.
Now, just in case I missed something, does anybody have a reference from a reliable source that explicitly and directly says that the 50 cars were not built. If no such reference is presented to us and the Nevera entry continues to be removed then I will call in the administrators to judge as they see fit. But if such references (from reliable sources) are found then we put the Nevera in a 'Controversial' section with both positive and negative references and tell the reader that its status is currently ambiguous. Stepho talk 07:27, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
50 mostly Croatian weblinks were put in one posting but we're still waiting for the promised reliable sources supposed to directly support that 25 cars were not sold. Four reliable sources including reputable newspapers were given stating that 50 cars have been sold. Don't spam meaningless weblinks with vague claims, specify the locations, quote the words, just like I did above. Drachentötbär ( talk) 18:51, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Enough. Markkonen, your issue seems to be with the "sold but not necessarily built" qualifier. If that's your problem, then start a discussion about that, instead of bludgeoning this discussion.
If that isn't what your issue is, then you need to provide multiple reliable sources that directly contradict the existing sourced information that 50 Rimac Neveras have been sold. No more walls of text, no more links to articles about other models, just the reliable sources about the specific point of contention. "Rimac lied before so they must be lying now" is NOT pertinent and it is not Wikipedia's place to make that judgement. -- Sable232 ( talk) 03:16, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Markkonen: The protection you requested on this article expires in two-and-a-half days, and you still have not provided the clear and explicit evidence you have been asked for. If your plan is to wait until the article is unprotected and make your changes again without providing that evidence here, your conduct will be reported to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. -- Sable232 ( talk) 14:22, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
This could be the next car to top the list.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/a44740181/lucid-air-sapphire-ev-drive-review/
How specific is the number produced in regard to sub-models? If Lucid produces 100 Lucid Airs and 1 of them is a Sapphire, does that meet the qualifications?
Just putting some thoughts out there. TonyBerry ( talk) 19:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
I'd be interested in seeing a plot of distance by time for a typical car acceleration test. Lee De Cola ( talk) 05:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering if this 1985 car can somehow be mentioned (somewhere in this article) as its 0-60 time is 2.8 s and legally allowed on the road and, eventually sold new to those who could afford it. I realize its production run was limited to six. It's just that it took the rest of the [automotive] industry, TWENTY years to produce a road legal car doing 0-60 in under 3 s (Veyron). In as much as it doesn't meet the 25 car criteria, there's got to be a way to mention it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.51.129 ( talk) 20:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
To the censor that deleted my message in this TALK page. Wikipedia keeps reminding their readers how so few people donate to its "encyclopedic" cause. Of the many reasons, THIS is one of them, there I thought it was considerate to go through the TALK page before anything else, nah... You delete on a whim, without even considering the time a person put-up for writing a comment, dismissively without even saying why, confirming your reputation to be a "just us" club. You're just so despicable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.51.129 ( talk) 21:21, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
~~~~
at the end of your messages. This helps us keep track of who said what and when they said it.
Stepho
talk
22:33, 31 January 2024 (UTC)This article was nominated for deletion on 9 December 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 30 July 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
|
||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Is the statement "more than 24 Rimac Nevera have been sold" based on reliable sources ?
The Rimac company has officially declared that they have already sold 50 cars [1] [2] and sources like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, Whichcar and Auto Bild also write that they've already sold 50.
For one side there is enough evidence to consider "more than 24 Neveras have been sold" as confirmed by reliable sources, while the other side disagrees, stating since there has been false information in the past, Rimac could be lying and the media would just copy what they say.
Is the statement "more than 24 Rimac Nevera have been sold" based on reliable sources ? Drachentötbär ( talk) 01:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
"...the first 50 are already sold."That suggests to me that they've been sold before being built. Since the criteria for inclusion in this list states 25 or more articles made, not sold, there would need to be sources stating that at least 25 cars have actually left the factory and been delivered to buyers. -- Sable232 ( talk) 15:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The outside input by Sable232 on our controversial point explained Verifiability, not truth. Original research claims don't matter. We should act according to the reliable sources which state that Rimac sold 50 Neveras and add the car to the list now. Drachentötbär ( talk) 22:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I took a look at the 2022 annual report and found out that the numbers from SoldierBoy12345's claim "annual report for 2022 income 12,41 million EUR with - 33,43 million EUR loss" don't exist there. It doesn't contradict the reliable sources which say that 50 Neveras were sold (i.e. how many contracts of sale for the Nevera were made). We do not know when payments were made or will be made for the cars ordered in 2018 and delivered in 2023 so it's pointless speculating which income should be written there. Reliable sources were given which directly support that more than 24 Neveras were sold, a controversial Facebook poster saying "If I'm a professional hater, he's a professional liar" doesn't even contradict this. Drachentötbär ( talk) 02:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
Whichcar: Just 150 Neveras will be made, with a production schedule of one car per week, and each will carry an eye watering price tag of AUD$3.1m. Such is the demand for Rimac’s product, however, that the first 50 are already sold.
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung: It takes five weeks to make a Nevera by hand, and the 50 copies that should be ready in the first year have already been sold. (translated from Einen Nevera herzustellen dauert in Handarbeit fünf Wochen, die 50 Exemplare, die im ersten Jahr fertig werden sollen, sind schon verkauft.)
Auto Bild: The plan is to build 150 Nevera. It is interesting that only around 50 of these have been sold so far. (translated from Der Plan sieht vor, 150 Nevera zu bauen. Interessant ist, dass davon bisher nur rund 50 Stück verkauft wurden.)
Neue Zürcher Zeitung: As a technical marvel full of superlatives, the Rimac Nevera is no bargain. Customers have to pay two million euros for it. And there are already quite a few of them. A third of the limited edition of 150 copies has already been sold. (translated from Der Rimac Nevera ist als technisches Wunderwerk voller Superlative allerdings kein Schnäppchen. Zwei Millionen Euro müssen die Kunden dafür schon bezahlen. Und von denen gibt es bereits einige. Die auf 150 Exemplare begrenzte Auflage ist bereits zu einem Drittel verkauft.)
This debate has gone on long enough - it is getting nowhere. I had a good read of the following:
In essence, they say that WP repeats what is found explicitly in published materials. They also say that WP does not do original research or synthesise information from other sources. If it is not stated explicitly then WP does not treat it as a fact.
In the above, we have multiple references saying that at least 50 copies of the Nevera have been sold. Not all of them may have been built and/or delivered but they have been reported in reliable sources as being sold. Therefore, WP treats this as a fact.
On the other hand, we have a claim that these references are merely repeating lies by Rimac. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But as long as the references are from reliable sources and there are no contradicting references explicitly saying that these are lies then WP must still treat the references as reporting facts.
Claims based on calculations from financial statements constitute original research and synthesis. WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH ban this and therefore WP cannot treat such theories as facts. We would need a reference to present this information and to explicitly say that 50 cars were not built. Note that a car being sold might (or might not) be effectively just a recording of the customer's name in a ledger and large sums of money might not necessarily change hands until the car is built and delivered in the future - this would not show up in annual financial statements.
Now, just in case I missed something, does anybody have a reference from a reliable source that explicitly and directly says that the 50 cars were not built. If no such reference is presented to us and the Nevera entry continues to be removed then I will call in the administrators to judge as they see fit. But if such references (from reliable sources) are found then we put the Nevera in a 'Controversial' section with both positive and negative references and tell the reader that its status is currently ambiguous. Stepho talk 07:27, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
50 mostly Croatian weblinks were put in one posting but we're still waiting for the promised reliable sources supposed to directly support that 25 cars were not sold. Four reliable sources including reputable newspapers were given stating that 50 cars have been sold. Don't spam meaningless weblinks with vague claims, specify the locations, quote the words, just like I did above. Drachentötbär ( talk) 18:51, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Enough. Markkonen, your issue seems to be with the "sold but not necessarily built" qualifier. If that's your problem, then start a discussion about that, instead of bludgeoning this discussion.
If that isn't what your issue is, then you need to provide multiple reliable sources that directly contradict the existing sourced information that 50 Rimac Neveras have been sold. No more walls of text, no more links to articles about other models, just the reliable sources about the specific point of contention. "Rimac lied before so they must be lying now" is NOT pertinent and it is not Wikipedia's place to make that judgement. -- Sable232 ( talk) 03:16, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Markkonen: The protection you requested on this article expires in two-and-a-half days, and you still have not provided the clear and explicit evidence you have been asked for. If your plan is to wait until the article is unprotected and make your changes again without providing that evidence here, your conduct will be reported to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. -- Sable232 ( talk) 14:22, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
This could be the next car to top the list.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/a44740181/lucid-air-sapphire-ev-drive-review/
How specific is the number produced in regard to sub-models? If Lucid produces 100 Lucid Airs and 1 of them is a Sapphire, does that meet the qualifications?
Just putting some thoughts out there. TonyBerry ( talk) 19:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
I'd be interested in seeing a plot of distance by time for a typical car acceleration test. Lee De Cola ( talk) 05:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering if this 1985 car can somehow be mentioned (somewhere in this article) as its 0-60 time is 2.8 s and legally allowed on the road and, eventually sold new to those who could afford it. I realize its production run was limited to six. It's just that it took the rest of the [automotive] industry, TWENTY years to produce a road legal car doing 0-60 in under 3 s (Veyron). In as much as it doesn't meet the 25 car criteria, there's got to be a way to mention it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.51.129 ( talk) 20:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
To the censor that deleted my message in this TALK page. Wikipedia keeps reminding their readers how so few people donate to its "encyclopedic" cause. Of the many reasons, THIS is one of them, there I thought it was considerate to go through the TALK page before anything else, nah... You delete on a whim, without even considering the time a person put-up for writing a comment, dismissively without even saying why, confirming your reputation to be a "just us" club. You're just so despicable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.51.129 ( talk) 21:21, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
~~~~
at the end of your messages. This helps us keep track of who said what and when they said it.
Stepho
talk
22:33, 31 January 2024 (UTC)