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This page was voted on for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948. The result was to keep it. dbenbenn | talk 03:51, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Check this link, http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/decade/decad170.htm#1, look at the name. Yes it is the document Mitchell Bard refers to, "Conclusions From Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine." It mentions the number 360,000 Arab refugees. This is Mitchell Bard's "aid" number. However, the report was signed in September 18, 1948 months before the conflict ended! The ethnical cleansing in the Galilee hadn't even taken place at the time! Now that you know for sure that Mitchell Bard faked atleast one of his sources, do you still insist that his figure should be in the article? Palestine-info 11:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Maybe you should read Talk:History of Israel? Palestine-info 16:44, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The point is that I have linked to the primary sources that Bard claims he is citing multiple times by now. But the primary sources does not mention the number he is "quoting." How come? Palestine-info 18:13, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You made it read: "472,000 According to the 'Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine'", but accordingly it isn't according to the Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine. :) And yes, 1 out of 3 is a failing grade. Palestine-info 20:53, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see. Now how do you tackle the problem that the report was written before September 16, 1948, many months before the conflict and the refugee flight ended? In which way can it be considered an estimate? Palestine-info 21:34, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You understand wrong, and to be honest, I don't think you should be so adamant in that you are right when you now show that you know so little. See Palestinian Exodus for more information about what happened in Palestine after September 16, 1948. The UN Mediator's "number" (if it really exists) refer to something entierly different than what is the topic of this article. Palestine-info 00:14, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
MITCHEL BARD, on the Jewish Virtual Library, is quite clear and is also misrepresenting the truth WHICH YOU KNOW. Therefore, you are also knowingly misrepresenting the truth. Palestine-info 11:44, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't this information be more useful if it were placed in context and assimilated into Palestinian exodus? Also it strikes me that many of the estimates, especially those derived from web sources, are impossible to verify at all to an ordinary reader. Perhaps this can all be pared down to maybe a half a dozen estimates at most, from the most important sources like the UN, a couple of human rights groups, and the major players, in the context of a paragraph or two in Palestinian exodus discussing varying approaches and methodologies and the considerable range of estimates.-- Pharos 22:05, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, good idea. But before that we need to track from where each estimate comes. I'll bet there are no more than at most ten that can be traced back to credible sources, the rest are taken from thin air (such as the 472,000 one). Palestine-info 22:35, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I blocked Palestine-Info for 3RR and have unblocked him after listing the reverts and near-reverts with him on IRC. Please, all desist from reverts - it's better to take it slowly and keep heated discussion to the talk page, not the article history - David Gerard 20:22, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
User:Palestine-info listed this page at WP:RFC. So, here is my two cents.
If I understand correctly, the current disagreement is over the attention paid to the first line in the list of estimates by one of the editors. Such attention appears to me as an attempt to skew the article to a particular POV. The first estimate, however wrong it might be, is well attributed and clearly shows its possible bias (produced by one side of the conflict with clear references to the origin). The rest of the estimates (all higher) are attributed substantially less accurately. For example, the highest estimate is not well attributed at all. It is not clear from the description that it's cited through the other side of the conflict, and the number actually disagrees with the UN report also listed on that page. Wiki is not a political forum, not a place to promote a particulat view point. Wiki should just report facts and stay neutral. The first entry in the list in the edition [3] seems to fit the bill. -- Gene s 12:38, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Have you read this talk page in full? I don't mean that as an insult, I'm just curious if I have explained the situation so badly. The message Jayjg wants to retain is: "according to the 'Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine'" but the UN Mediator ofcourse couldn't have estimated the total extent of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948 in Septeber 16, 1948 (a day before he was shot) because it wasn't over by the time! Palestine-info 12:51, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The date of the report certainly has to be included. Even then, it might be a bit of apples and oranges to have one number from mid-conflict when the other numbers are all from afterwards. Gzornenplatz 13:06, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
I question the page title ( Estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948). They weren't refugees until after they'd fled. And "Refugee" shouldn't be capitalised anyway. Suggest Estimates of Palestinian refugees, which allows the page to also broach the issue of how many Palestinian refugees there were from 1967, and how many today including descendants. Or perhaps Estimates of Palestinian and Jewish displaced persons or similar, to take the widest possible view of number of people affected. Rd232 15:40, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
About Bard, I have e-mailed him. He has to refused to quote the sentences from which his number 472,000 come from. I have also spent the better part of yesterday trying to find a source that mentions 472,000 Palestinian refugees but failed. But still, lets assume the quote is correct. It still needs the caveats so that the reader is not mislead:
This footnote, for the above mentioned reasons, I find to be much better than Jayjg's version which reads like this:
Palestine-info 16:31, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Mitchell Bard is NOT a respected researcher. But that debate can be left to another page. This is my e-mail conversation in chronological order:
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:30:38 +0100 Subject: Myths & Facts Online
Hi. I'm an amateur historical research interested in Middle-Eastern history. I saw your page Myths & Facts Online in which the following is written: "A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ‹ 472,000, and calculated that only about 360,000 Arab refugees required aid." but I cannot find the number 472,000 in the references you mention. Would it be possible for you to provide the exact quotations from those sources in context?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:39:14 EST Subject: Re: Myths & Facts Online
There are references in the notes where the data should be found.
Sincerely, Mitchell G. Bard, Ph.D. Executive Director American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) 2810 Blaine Dr. Chevy Chase, MD 20815 Tel. 301-565-3918 Fax. 301-587-9056 Web: Jewish Virtual Library ( http://www.JewishVirtualLibrary.org)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:31:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Myths & Facts Online
Thank you for your very quick response! However, in the sources you mention "Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine" p.47 ,"Conclusions From Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine" p.29, p.23, p.11 and Supplement No.11A p.5, I could not find a mention of the number 472,000. So I wonder if you can provide me with the exact quote from which 472,000 is taken? That would make it so much easier for me to look up. Thanks.
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:29:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Myths & Facts Online
Hello again. Maybe you missed my previous mail. I have looked in every source imaginable to find the number 472,000 but with no avail. So if it not to much to ask, can you please cite the sentences in which the UN Mediator mentions the number in context? That would make it so much easier for me to verify.
Another thing, in your article you state that "A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ‹ 472,000, and calculated that only about 360,000 Arab refugees required aid." But you fail to mention that the report was written prior to September 16, 1948? Your article gives me the impression that you claim that the UN Mediator said that there were "only" 472,000 refugees. But in September 1948 the refugee flight was far from over. How come?
Note: My personal details have been omitted. On Wikipedia I'm known as "palestine-info" and nothing else. Note2: It's only been five days, but since he answered my first mail quickly he is definitely reading his mailbox. Palestine-info 01:43, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't claim that it is conclusive evidence of anything. It's just that you and David Gerard thought it was very important that I posted my correspondance so that's what I did. Palestine-info 15:56, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think it's unwise to attribute estimates to sources unless the primary source has been verified. I have tried to find the estimate that Bard attributes to the UN mediator by examining the copy of the report that Bard cites, on the UN website. It is not there (the mediator was assassinated shortly thereafter and the report may be incomplete for that reason). Another source of the report is the Avalon website and this gives a different number (discussed above in other sections). In view of this I have reattributed the figure to Bard in the text, explaining that his attribution has not been verified.
I note that other citations in the UN section seem to be by third parties. There is no good reason for this. Please verify those citations by tracing to primary source or stop attributing them to UN sources. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 20:28, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What I'm saying, and I want to be absolutely clear about this, is that until we have a primary source for an estimate attributed to the UN, we cannot attribute it to the UN, but we can say that someone else attributes it to the UN.
I have gone directly to the UN documents. I do not find the figure attributed by Bard to the UN report in the UN report. Therefore it cannot be atttributed by us to the UN because we do not know his claim to be factual. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This link quotes the report:
"As a result of the conflict in Palestine, almost the whole of the Arab population fled or was expelled from the area under Jewish occupation. Of a population of somewhat more than 400,000 Arabs prior to the outbreak of hostilities, the number presently estimated as remaining in Jewish controlled territory is approximately 50,000." (2)
And (2) is: (Progress Report of the UN Mediator in Palestine) p. 47! Palestine-info 01:24, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have located the two UN documents listed by Mitchell Bard, in a microfiche collection of UN official records:
Here is what these reports say about the number of Arab refugees.
There is a discrepancy between "330,000" stated in A/648 and "360,000" quoted in A/689. The microfiche also says "330,000" in the conclusions, but Avalon's version and other UN documents quote that as "360,000". This indicates that the first "330,000" quoted above and the "330,000" in the microfiche conclusions are typos that were corrected later. This allows 30,000 for the "remainder" who "are scattered...", which didn't make sense before.
Bunche's argument for a maximum of 500,000 assumes no further changes in territory, and so was later invalidated by Israeli conquest of the Negev and upper Galilee.
Bard's three references "part one, p. 29; part two, p. 23 and part three, p. 11" make no sense in A/648 since the parts are not paginated separately and no obvious interprettation gets one to the right pages. The probable solution is that Bard just copied these page numbers from Avalon, where they refer to the reprinted documents in "A Decade of American Foreign Policy" and only one of the three refers to refugee numbers.
Comments: Bard got the relationship between the 360,000 and the 472,000 quite wrong. They are not different categories of refugees but estimates of the same thing made on different dates. He also tried to deceive the reader by failing to note that these estimates referred to interim estimates when the refugee flow was far from over. None of this should be surprising in an article by such a blatant propagandist. His "Myths and Facts" is the most recent incarnation of a scrurrilous booklet of the same name which has been around since the 1960s and is a fine example of the very worst of pseudo-history.
Our article: I propose to forget Bard and add something like "360,000 estimated by the UN Mediator in Sep 1948, and 472,000 by the acting UN Mediator in Oct 1948, both being incomplete since the refugee flow was far from over (UNGA 3rd session Supplements 11 and 11A, 1948)".
-- Zero 10:14, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Zero, thank you for going to the trouble of looking this up. Your information is most helpful, and your time much appreciated. SlimVirgin 10:21, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
The numbers 360,000 and 472,000 seem to be numbers of registered refugees requiring relief. Palestine-info 11:35, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this, Zero. Bard is a secondary source and here we have the primary source. I broadly agree with your proposed wording, though the relationship between Folke Bernadotte and Bunche should be made explicit. Something like:
-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 11:55, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Palestine-info, I feel you should leave that paragraph in the UN section, because it's starting to look as though you questioned it to get rid of it, and now it's been confirmed, you're burying it to get rid of it. It's a UN figure, which Zero and Tony have written up, it's been inserted into the right place by Jay, and it's very clear that it's a UN interim figure, so please leave it be. I would like to restore it to the UN section unless you can say why not. SlimVirgin 21:45, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Abu-Sitta is no nobody. The reason I don't think it should be included is like Gzornenplatz said, "a bit of apples and oranges." The original purpouse of this page was to list known estimates of the *total* refugee flight so that in some other article you can say "between xxx-yyy hundred thousands Palestinians fled (see Estimates of the...)." Now that obviously changed since Jayjg was so insistent in maintaining a number that turned out to be a report on the number of registered refugees in October 1948. But still, you should not mix apples with oranges or someone will mistake an apple for an orange. All the figures collected are meaningless unless they are presented in the proper context. It is not to put them in proper context to present them as if they are figures of the totals of the refugee flight because they are not. And I'm not trying to hide them. If it was not for the huge amount of work I've spent discussing and researching the issue I would gladly delete them just as Zero suggested because they are apples in basket full of oranges. Palestine-info 22:11, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
But the paragraphs are clearly entitled "interim estimate", as opposed to "final estimate" The point is that this is a UN figure and so it should be in the UN section. Did Zero say to delete the figures? I didn't see that. Also, could you expand on who Abu-Sitta is, please? SlimVirgin 22:17, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Jay, your suggestion for UN estimates (interim/final) and Other estimates (interim/final) sounds even better, because that would makes things very clear. PI, do you have anything you'd like to add before this is changed, and any information about Abu-Sitta? I looked him up and found some material but nothing conclusive, so anything you know about him would be appreciated. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 23:28, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you have to educate yourselves about who Salman Abu-Sitta is. Please continue of accusing me of POV-pushing without presenting any facts whatsoever. I've already explained why dividing the page like you have proposed is mixing apples with oranges. The UN figures are interim yes, because they were made before the flight was over. The other estimates that estimate the number of refugees are not iterim because they were made after the war was over. But they are both incomplete. So really, we have three categories:
Of these estimates, the apples and pears doesn't really belong on this page. Futhermore the division of some estimates as "UN Estimates" and others as "Other Estimates" is purely fictional - the UN used the same methods as other researchers when they tried to estimate the total refugee flight. Palestine-info 10:55, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I've lost track of the changes here as I've been distracted elsewhere. Has everyone agreed that the UN progress report should be under "other estimates" with Abu-Sitta? My feeling is it looks silly to lump the United Nations in with someone whose identity is unclear. Palestine-info, it would help a lot if you could provide some information about this person. I've looked him up but the citations are unclear: for example, he's called a scholar but I can't find which university he's associated with; there are 50 papers written by him mentioned, but then no citations, except to a couple of newspaper articles or websites. Any information you have would be appreciated. Also, you talk above about the methodologies used to make the estimates. What methodology does Abu-Sitta use? SlimVirgin 18:24, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Please state why it is important that I write up a biography for Salman Abu-Sitta, or I will continue to refer to the 3750 Google hits the name gives. You might also try to make his red link blue and I might help. The methodology he has used is described in the footnotes. The UN figures mentioned here uses different definitions and that is the primary reason why they differ. See their footnotes for explanations. No, they aren't reliable estimates for the Palestinian refugee flight, but that doesn't matter. Wikipedia's mission isn't to establish the "one true POV," it is merely to reflect others POV. UN has one POV, Israel another POV and Palestinian researches a third POV. Then there are some more POV:s. But all POV:s are in a certain way equal (the criterion for this page was "notable"). Therefore, listing all UN estimates in a bunch is trying to push the UN:s pov. However, the figures diverge from each other in one factual and objective way - some tries to estimate the total refugee flight and some only the amount of refugees before the flight was over. As I've mentioned a hundred of times, I don't like the last category because they are the apples in basket full of oranges. Jayjg might think that the title is wrong and should be unwieldedly long for no reason even though "Estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948" totally communicates the intention. And that the following has been at the top of the page ever since it was created "No-one knows exactly how many Palestinians became refugees during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war." Palestine-info 19:17, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
PI, please stop reverting this. It makes much more sense to have the UN estimates together, making it clear that the early ones are interim estimates. Also, the onus is on you to show that Abu-Sitta is a credible source, not on me to show that he isn't. I'm not saying he isn't. I'm just saying I don't know, and would appreciate any information you have about him. I'm not asking what a full biography, but, for example, is he based at a university, or if not, is he with any other institution/body? I don't agree that listing the UN figures together is pushing the UN POV. It just happens to be the best-known body and would be regarded by many as very authoritative and perhaps the least likely to have POV (I know that's arguable to say the least, but a common perception is that they are "neutral"). SlimVirgin 20:10, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
The article lists the UN estimate of 726,000 as a final number. However, the Committee that estimated it in December, 1949 (The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine) came out with a revised number in October, 1950. Should only this final figure be counted as a "final" estimate, and the other as an "interim"? Jayjg | (Talk) 20:08, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[4] Therefore, they were not interim. They may have been based on incorrect data, but that is not the same thing as interim. In fact, the reason why Abu-Sitta and other researchers estimates diverge from the UN numbers is because they are based on more complete data than the UN numbers. Palestine-info 18:15, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The numbers were obviously interim, because the final numbers differed. All numbers were estimates, and the Commitee issued it's final estimate in October, 1950. And your argument certainly doesn't hold for the number of refugees, as the UNRWA was still in a process of trying to weed out all the falsified and duplicated registrants when it issued its initial numbers. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:35, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As you can see, the estimates concern the number of registered Palestinian refugees. What that means is that at certain dates, UNRWA counted how many Palestinians that had registered refugee status. Those numbers are different from the 726,000 number which is an estimate of how many refugees fled from Israel. The Committee did not "revise" this number but instead choose to pick a more conservative number for some reason or the other not explained in the source. 726,000 has however, been referenced by many other UN documents as their choosen estimate. Palestine-info 18:48, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That was not the estimate my mention of registered Palestinian refugees referred to. Do you understand that the following numbers are not estimates, 957,000, 914,000 or not? Palestine-info 19:02, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The numbers represent the number of registered Palestinian refugees at certain points in time. Your selection of 876,000 is entierly arbitrary. Palestine-info 11:37, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The distinction between interim and final is somewhat blurred, especially if one wants to take figures dating from 1950 and beyond. The refugees who left in 1948-9 were dying and/or having children like a normal population. Most children (but not all) were included in the counts of registered refugees. Since there were more children than deaths, the numbers kept increasing and are still increasing today. Unless you want to include numbers up to the present, you should cut it off at about the dates of the armistice agreements. Another problem with the article is the use of the word "registered". At the time of the Mediators' reports I don't think it was a particularly formal concept. References to refugees who "registered" probably just meant that they fronted up to the disaster relief officials and identified themselves as refugees. Later on when UNRWA got organized there was a formal definition of refugee and systematic listing of names was done. -- Zero 11:57, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If it was up to me, only numbers which has been used to refer to the total number of refugees should be included. Unfortunately, that means that numbers such as 957,000 and 472,000 should be included since they have been used for that purpouse. I don't get the logic behind in including numbers from before the armistice, but excluding numbers from shortly after it. Also remember that Israel expelled quite a few Palestinians after the armistice and their numbers are usually counted as refugees of the original diaspora. Palestine-info 12:14, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You are misquoting me. I said that we should use those numbers others use. ... to present what others say is the truth. Yes, it means including faulty information such as the 472,000 figure, but it is better than trying to argue what the truth is. Numbers that has been used as an "Estimate of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948." Palestine-info 22:20, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
First, the UNRWA hasn't choosen any "final" number. Look at UNRWA:s own site and you will see 914,000 mentioned. That you choose to interpret that as their final number is your opinion, but not the UNRWA:s. Secondly, the policy I talked about is WP:NPOV, "The neutral point of view policy states that articles should be written without bias, representing all views fairly." The question asked is "How many Palestinians fled Israel in the Palestine war?" The question has two dozen answers, that is those answers and who is answering them that this page is all about. Fourth, I don't think you understand what the UNRWA numbers mean. We know that 1. In 1950 there were 957,000 Palestinians under relief rolls (assumedly, many of them duplicates). 2. In 1951 there were 875,998 Palestinians under relief rolls. One reason that the latter number was lower was duplicate registrations, another that some of them became self-sufficient. Because when they were self-sufficient they weren't entitled to UNRWA relief. Furthermore, there is nothing "interim" with the number decreasing just as there is nothing "interim" with that the number rose later. Fifth, I agree that the crap should go. Palestine-info 23:11, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing final with the number 875,998 (which is their number, it is a count not an estimate). It is just the number of registered Palestinian refugees in 1951 detailed in the 1951 issue of Report of the Director of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. What you mean when you write "The UNRWA's view was that the actual number was 876,000" is beyond me. I have never stated that we should quote every single view one finds on the web. What I said was that "The website has to qualify by some criterion of 'notability.'" I don't know how to solve this because obviously you are not listening and probably not even reading what it is that I'm writing. Why do you think that the number in the 1951 issue of the director's report is more final than the numbers mentioned in 1952, 53, 54.. 1998? Palestine-info 00:19, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I understand you. But do you understand that the numbers 957,000 and 875,998 refers to two different things? You seem to think that the numbers are measurements done at two different times measuring of the same thing. Not so, they are counts of the registered refugee population. One of the reason that the number varies is, as you say, fraud, other reasons include employment (you don't get aid if you are self-sufficient), unemployment (you get aid if you are unemployed), population growth etc. It seems to me that you think they did one study and their first guess was 957,000 and then they found the more accurate number 876,000. Palestine-info 00:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the added estimates, Zero. To be honest, many of these estimates are dubious at best, but I'm not sure how one differentiates between the dubious and non-dubious ones in any NPOV way that everyone could agree to. Also, I suspect this information would be better presented in a table, if only I knew how to do that. Jayjg | (Talk) 15:34, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It's not really clear to me what the difference is between the two "final" UN numbers, 711,000 and 876,000. Which one is the final UN count? -- MPerel( talk | contrib) 23:43, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
There is no final UN count. The working definition used by the UNRWA is: "a person normally resident in Palestine who has lost his home and his livelihood as a result of the hostilities, and who is in need." That includes the offspring of the refugees too. The discrepancy is because the first number 726,000 (which Jayjg thinks is "interim") is "calculated." First by estimating how many Palestinians there were before Israel occupied Palestine and deducting those that remained. That number is heavily dependant on what birthrate one chooses and upon the village survey the British undertook in 44/45, but it is doubtful that that survey was very accurate. And it doesn't take into account internal refugees (people who lost their homes but remained inside Israel's borders), or border-line refugees (people who lost their livelihood but not their home). And then there is the bedouins that wandered around in the desert in Egypt, Palestine and Jordan, they had no home, did they become refugees? Basically, it is nigh impossible to make an accurate estimate and I guess that is why there are so many of them. Palestine-info 02:59, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"The estimate of the statistical expert, which the Committee believes to be as accurate as circumstances permit, indicates that the refugees from Israel- controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000. The fact that there is a higher number of relief recipients appears to be due among other things to duplication of ration cards, addition of persons who have been displaced from area other than Israel-held areas and of persons who, although not displaced, are destitute." [7] Jayjg (talk) 17:58, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That is exactly what the document says. But as I have pointed out, nowhere does it say that their estimate (711,000) is "final" or that the Economic Survey Missions number (726,000) is "interim." Palestine-info 18:36, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A. The page states "According to the Final Report of the United Nations Economic Survey Mission .." You are mistaken about who is actually doing the number reporting. B. A later estimate used by the same Commission is 800,000 - 900,000, by your logic then, the commission must have revised their number upwards. C. You have not proven any finality about any of the estimates. D. It is clearly understood that interim refers to figures that refers to estimates that does not take the total number of refugees in account. Those numbers you claim to be interim, clearly, are not interim. E. Your reply to [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#User:Palestine-info_vs._User:Jayjg this] is needed. Palestine-info 16:57, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think I have now said everything that could be said about this issue. I will refrain from discussing it until someone who listens to arguments comes around. Regarding my "blind reverts", it is not my fault that you first reverts and then inserts lots of inconsequential minor edits just to make it harder to revert your POV. If you want to avoid double-work, I suggest that you stop doing that until this dispute is solved. Palestine-info 17:46, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is not my job to pick up the pieces. I don't know if it is a tactic you are using or what. But if you want to retain your changes that aren't related to the dispute, the way to do it (so that I wont have to work double) is to first commit the unrelated changes and then revert. You have done the exact opposite, first revert then lots of minor changes, which makes it very troublesome for me to do a clean revert. Palestine-info 10:45, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have expended a great wealth of good faith upon you, but my resources are getting dry. Palestine-info 18:01, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Morris Birth Revisted, p602: "The director general of the Israel Foreign Ministry, Walter Eytan, in a private letter in late 1950 referred to the UNRWA registration in 1949 of 726,000 as ‘meticulous’ but thought that ‘the real number was close to 800,000’." There is absolutely no reason this estimate can't be included. It is a documented estimate by someone in a position to have a fair idea of the facts. Compare with "200,000 by the mid-June 1948 accoding to Emil Ghoury" which the source says was made without a "clear idea of the dispersal’s full magnitude" and states to be "less than two-thirds the actual figure". Someone had better stop playing games with this (rather useless) article. Zero talk 23:33, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Kind regards
-- Point by point ( talk) 00:04, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes "we don't know", but that's the exact reason why, I added the symbol ±, when it was not an official estimate and was only an aproximate mentioned somewhere in a book. -- ... Point by point ... ( talk) 15:32, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Point by point: Your here is directly copy-pasted from here. This violated multiple policies. Firstly, it violates WP:COPYVIO. Secondly, the book is a self-published book by a vanity publisher AuthorHouse, and fails WP:RS. Thirdly, you failed to actually cite the book, in violation of WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 23:59, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
-- Point by point ( talk) 00:16, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Functionally I don't think it really changes anything, but looking at the project Palestine rating as a "stub" is clearly in appropriate - so I'm going to make a couple of changes to make this article a list, which it pretty much follows the style guide for already. TrickyH ( talk) 09:48, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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This page was voted on for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948. The result was to keep it. dbenbenn | talk 03:51, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Check this link, http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/decade/decad170.htm#1, look at the name. Yes it is the document Mitchell Bard refers to, "Conclusions From Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine." It mentions the number 360,000 Arab refugees. This is Mitchell Bard's "aid" number. However, the report was signed in September 18, 1948 months before the conflict ended! The ethnical cleansing in the Galilee hadn't even taken place at the time! Now that you know for sure that Mitchell Bard faked atleast one of his sources, do you still insist that his figure should be in the article? Palestine-info 11:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Maybe you should read Talk:History of Israel? Palestine-info 16:44, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The point is that I have linked to the primary sources that Bard claims he is citing multiple times by now. But the primary sources does not mention the number he is "quoting." How come? Palestine-info 18:13, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You made it read: "472,000 According to the 'Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine'", but accordingly it isn't according to the Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine. :) And yes, 1 out of 3 is a failing grade. Palestine-info 20:53, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I see. Now how do you tackle the problem that the report was written before September 16, 1948, many months before the conflict and the refugee flight ended? In which way can it be considered an estimate? Palestine-info 21:34, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You understand wrong, and to be honest, I don't think you should be so adamant in that you are right when you now show that you know so little. See Palestinian Exodus for more information about what happened in Palestine after September 16, 1948. The UN Mediator's "number" (if it really exists) refer to something entierly different than what is the topic of this article. Palestine-info 00:14, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
MITCHEL BARD, on the Jewish Virtual Library, is quite clear and is also misrepresenting the truth WHICH YOU KNOW. Therefore, you are also knowingly misrepresenting the truth. Palestine-info 11:44, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't this information be more useful if it were placed in context and assimilated into Palestinian exodus? Also it strikes me that many of the estimates, especially those derived from web sources, are impossible to verify at all to an ordinary reader. Perhaps this can all be pared down to maybe a half a dozen estimates at most, from the most important sources like the UN, a couple of human rights groups, and the major players, in the context of a paragraph or two in Palestinian exodus discussing varying approaches and methodologies and the considerable range of estimates.-- Pharos 22:05, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, good idea. But before that we need to track from where each estimate comes. I'll bet there are no more than at most ten that can be traced back to credible sources, the rest are taken from thin air (such as the 472,000 one). Palestine-info 22:35, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I blocked Palestine-Info for 3RR and have unblocked him after listing the reverts and near-reverts with him on IRC. Please, all desist from reverts - it's better to take it slowly and keep heated discussion to the talk page, not the article history - David Gerard 20:22, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
User:Palestine-info listed this page at WP:RFC. So, here is my two cents.
If I understand correctly, the current disagreement is over the attention paid to the first line in the list of estimates by one of the editors. Such attention appears to me as an attempt to skew the article to a particular POV. The first estimate, however wrong it might be, is well attributed and clearly shows its possible bias (produced by one side of the conflict with clear references to the origin). The rest of the estimates (all higher) are attributed substantially less accurately. For example, the highest estimate is not well attributed at all. It is not clear from the description that it's cited through the other side of the conflict, and the number actually disagrees with the UN report also listed on that page. Wiki is not a political forum, not a place to promote a particulat view point. Wiki should just report facts and stay neutral. The first entry in the list in the edition [3] seems to fit the bill. -- Gene s 12:38, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Have you read this talk page in full? I don't mean that as an insult, I'm just curious if I have explained the situation so badly. The message Jayjg wants to retain is: "according to the 'Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine'" but the UN Mediator ofcourse couldn't have estimated the total extent of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948 in Septeber 16, 1948 (a day before he was shot) because it wasn't over by the time! Palestine-info 12:51, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The date of the report certainly has to be included. Even then, it might be a bit of apples and oranges to have one number from mid-conflict when the other numbers are all from afterwards. Gzornenplatz 13:06, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
I question the page title ( Estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948). They weren't refugees until after they'd fled. And "Refugee" shouldn't be capitalised anyway. Suggest Estimates of Palestinian refugees, which allows the page to also broach the issue of how many Palestinian refugees there were from 1967, and how many today including descendants. Or perhaps Estimates of Palestinian and Jewish displaced persons or similar, to take the widest possible view of number of people affected. Rd232 15:40, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
About Bard, I have e-mailed him. He has to refused to quote the sentences from which his number 472,000 come from. I have also spent the better part of yesterday trying to find a source that mentions 472,000 Palestinian refugees but failed. But still, lets assume the quote is correct. It still needs the caveats so that the reader is not mislead:
This footnote, for the above mentioned reasons, I find to be much better than Jayjg's version which reads like this:
Palestine-info 16:31, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Mitchell Bard is NOT a respected researcher. But that debate can be left to another page. This is my e-mail conversation in chronological order:
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:30:38 +0100 Subject: Myths & Facts Online
Hi. I'm an amateur historical research interested in Middle-Eastern history. I saw your page Myths & Facts Online in which the following is written: "A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ‹ 472,000, and calculated that only about 360,000 Arab refugees required aid." but I cannot find the number 472,000 in the references you mention. Would it be possible for you to provide the exact quotations from those sources in context?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:39:14 EST Subject: Re: Myths & Facts Online
There are references in the notes where the data should be found.
Sincerely, Mitchell G. Bard, Ph.D. Executive Director American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) 2810 Blaine Dr. Chevy Chase, MD 20815 Tel. 301-565-3918 Fax. 301-587-9056 Web: Jewish Virtual Library ( http://www.JewishVirtualLibrary.org)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:31:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Myths & Facts Online
Thank you for your very quick response! However, in the sources you mention "Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine" p.47 ,"Conclusions From Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine" p.29, p.23, p.11 and Supplement No.11A p.5, I could not find a mention of the number 472,000. So I wonder if you can provide me with the exact quote from which 472,000 is taken? That would make it so much easier for me to look up. Thanks.
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:29:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Myths & Facts Online
Hello again. Maybe you missed my previous mail. I have looked in every source imaginable to find the number 472,000 but with no avail. So if it not to much to ask, can you please cite the sentences in which the UN Mediator mentions the number in context? That would make it so much easier for me to verify.
Another thing, in your article you state that "A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ‹ 472,000, and calculated that only about 360,000 Arab refugees required aid." But you fail to mention that the report was written prior to September 16, 1948? Your article gives me the impression that you claim that the UN Mediator said that there were "only" 472,000 refugees. But in September 1948 the refugee flight was far from over. How come?
Note: My personal details have been omitted. On Wikipedia I'm known as "palestine-info" and nothing else. Note2: It's only been five days, but since he answered my first mail quickly he is definitely reading his mailbox. Palestine-info 01:43, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't claim that it is conclusive evidence of anything. It's just that you and David Gerard thought it was very important that I posted my correspondance so that's what I did. Palestine-info 15:56, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think it's unwise to attribute estimates to sources unless the primary source has been verified. I have tried to find the estimate that Bard attributes to the UN mediator by examining the copy of the report that Bard cites, on the UN website. It is not there (the mediator was assassinated shortly thereafter and the report may be incomplete for that reason). Another source of the report is the Avalon website and this gives a different number (discussed above in other sections). In view of this I have reattributed the figure to Bard in the text, explaining that his attribution has not been verified.
I note that other citations in the UN section seem to be by third parties. There is no good reason for this. Please verify those citations by tracing to primary source or stop attributing them to UN sources. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 20:28, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What I'm saying, and I want to be absolutely clear about this, is that until we have a primary source for an estimate attributed to the UN, we cannot attribute it to the UN, but we can say that someone else attributes it to the UN.
I have gone directly to the UN documents. I do not find the figure attributed by Bard to the UN report in the UN report. Therefore it cannot be atttributed by us to the UN because we do not know his claim to be factual. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This link quotes the report:
"As a result of the conflict in Palestine, almost the whole of the Arab population fled or was expelled from the area under Jewish occupation. Of a population of somewhat more than 400,000 Arabs prior to the outbreak of hostilities, the number presently estimated as remaining in Jewish controlled territory is approximately 50,000." (2)
And (2) is: (Progress Report of the UN Mediator in Palestine) p. 47! Palestine-info 01:24, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have located the two UN documents listed by Mitchell Bard, in a microfiche collection of UN official records:
Here is what these reports say about the number of Arab refugees.
There is a discrepancy between "330,000" stated in A/648 and "360,000" quoted in A/689. The microfiche also says "330,000" in the conclusions, but Avalon's version and other UN documents quote that as "360,000". This indicates that the first "330,000" quoted above and the "330,000" in the microfiche conclusions are typos that were corrected later. This allows 30,000 for the "remainder" who "are scattered...", which didn't make sense before.
Bunche's argument for a maximum of 500,000 assumes no further changes in territory, and so was later invalidated by Israeli conquest of the Negev and upper Galilee.
Bard's three references "part one, p. 29; part two, p. 23 and part three, p. 11" make no sense in A/648 since the parts are not paginated separately and no obvious interprettation gets one to the right pages. The probable solution is that Bard just copied these page numbers from Avalon, where they refer to the reprinted documents in "A Decade of American Foreign Policy" and only one of the three refers to refugee numbers.
Comments: Bard got the relationship between the 360,000 and the 472,000 quite wrong. They are not different categories of refugees but estimates of the same thing made on different dates. He also tried to deceive the reader by failing to note that these estimates referred to interim estimates when the refugee flow was far from over. None of this should be surprising in an article by such a blatant propagandist. His "Myths and Facts" is the most recent incarnation of a scrurrilous booklet of the same name which has been around since the 1960s and is a fine example of the very worst of pseudo-history.
Our article: I propose to forget Bard and add something like "360,000 estimated by the UN Mediator in Sep 1948, and 472,000 by the acting UN Mediator in Oct 1948, both being incomplete since the refugee flow was far from over (UNGA 3rd session Supplements 11 and 11A, 1948)".
-- Zero 10:14, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Zero, thank you for going to the trouble of looking this up. Your information is most helpful, and your time much appreciated. SlimVirgin 10:21, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
The numbers 360,000 and 472,000 seem to be numbers of registered refugees requiring relief. Palestine-info 11:35, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this, Zero. Bard is a secondary source and here we have the primary source. I broadly agree with your proposed wording, though the relationship between Folke Bernadotte and Bunche should be made explicit. Something like:
-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 11:55, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Palestine-info, I feel you should leave that paragraph in the UN section, because it's starting to look as though you questioned it to get rid of it, and now it's been confirmed, you're burying it to get rid of it. It's a UN figure, which Zero and Tony have written up, it's been inserted into the right place by Jay, and it's very clear that it's a UN interim figure, so please leave it be. I would like to restore it to the UN section unless you can say why not. SlimVirgin 21:45, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Abu-Sitta is no nobody. The reason I don't think it should be included is like Gzornenplatz said, "a bit of apples and oranges." The original purpouse of this page was to list known estimates of the *total* refugee flight so that in some other article you can say "between xxx-yyy hundred thousands Palestinians fled (see Estimates of the...)." Now that obviously changed since Jayjg was so insistent in maintaining a number that turned out to be a report on the number of registered refugees in October 1948. But still, you should not mix apples with oranges or someone will mistake an apple for an orange. All the figures collected are meaningless unless they are presented in the proper context. It is not to put them in proper context to present them as if they are figures of the totals of the refugee flight because they are not. And I'm not trying to hide them. If it was not for the huge amount of work I've spent discussing and researching the issue I would gladly delete them just as Zero suggested because they are apples in basket full of oranges. Palestine-info 22:11, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
But the paragraphs are clearly entitled "interim estimate", as opposed to "final estimate" The point is that this is a UN figure and so it should be in the UN section. Did Zero say to delete the figures? I didn't see that. Also, could you expand on who Abu-Sitta is, please? SlimVirgin 22:17, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Jay, your suggestion for UN estimates (interim/final) and Other estimates (interim/final) sounds even better, because that would makes things very clear. PI, do you have anything you'd like to add before this is changed, and any information about Abu-Sitta? I looked him up and found some material but nothing conclusive, so anything you know about him would be appreciated. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 23:28, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you have to educate yourselves about who Salman Abu-Sitta is. Please continue of accusing me of POV-pushing without presenting any facts whatsoever. I've already explained why dividing the page like you have proposed is mixing apples with oranges. The UN figures are interim yes, because they were made before the flight was over. The other estimates that estimate the number of refugees are not iterim because they were made after the war was over. But they are both incomplete. So really, we have three categories:
Of these estimates, the apples and pears doesn't really belong on this page. Futhermore the division of some estimates as "UN Estimates" and others as "Other Estimates" is purely fictional - the UN used the same methods as other researchers when they tried to estimate the total refugee flight. Palestine-info 10:55, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I've lost track of the changes here as I've been distracted elsewhere. Has everyone agreed that the UN progress report should be under "other estimates" with Abu-Sitta? My feeling is it looks silly to lump the United Nations in with someone whose identity is unclear. Palestine-info, it would help a lot if you could provide some information about this person. I've looked him up but the citations are unclear: for example, he's called a scholar but I can't find which university he's associated with; there are 50 papers written by him mentioned, but then no citations, except to a couple of newspaper articles or websites. Any information you have would be appreciated. Also, you talk above about the methodologies used to make the estimates. What methodology does Abu-Sitta use? SlimVirgin 18:24, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Please state why it is important that I write up a biography for Salman Abu-Sitta, or I will continue to refer to the 3750 Google hits the name gives. You might also try to make his red link blue and I might help. The methodology he has used is described in the footnotes. The UN figures mentioned here uses different definitions and that is the primary reason why they differ. See their footnotes for explanations. No, they aren't reliable estimates for the Palestinian refugee flight, but that doesn't matter. Wikipedia's mission isn't to establish the "one true POV," it is merely to reflect others POV. UN has one POV, Israel another POV and Palestinian researches a third POV. Then there are some more POV:s. But all POV:s are in a certain way equal (the criterion for this page was "notable"). Therefore, listing all UN estimates in a bunch is trying to push the UN:s pov. However, the figures diverge from each other in one factual and objective way - some tries to estimate the total refugee flight and some only the amount of refugees before the flight was over. As I've mentioned a hundred of times, I don't like the last category because they are the apples in basket full of oranges. Jayjg might think that the title is wrong and should be unwieldedly long for no reason even though "Estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948" totally communicates the intention. And that the following has been at the top of the page ever since it was created "No-one knows exactly how many Palestinians became refugees during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war." Palestine-info 19:17, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
PI, please stop reverting this. It makes much more sense to have the UN estimates together, making it clear that the early ones are interim estimates. Also, the onus is on you to show that Abu-Sitta is a credible source, not on me to show that he isn't. I'm not saying he isn't. I'm just saying I don't know, and would appreciate any information you have about him. I'm not asking what a full biography, but, for example, is he based at a university, or if not, is he with any other institution/body? I don't agree that listing the UN figures together is pushing the UN POV. It just happens to be the best-known body and would be regarded by many as very authoritative and perhaps the least likely to have POV (I know that's arguable to say the least, but a common perception is that they are "neutral"). SlimVirgin 20:10, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
The article lists the UN estimate of 726,000 as a final number. However, the Committee that estimated it in December, 1949 (The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine) came out with a revised number in October, 1950. Should only this final figure be counted as a "final" estimate, and the other as an "interim"? Jayjg | (Talk) 20:08, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[4] Therefore, they were not interim. They may have been based on incorrect data, but that is not the same thing as interim. In fact, the reason why Abu-Sitta and other researchers estimates diverge from the UN numbers is because they are based on more complete data than the UN numbers. Palestine-info 18:15, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The numbers were obviously interim, because the final numbers differed. All numbers were estimates, and the Commitee issued it's final estimate in October, 1950. And your argument certainly doesn't hold for the number of refugees, as the UNRWA was still in a process of trying to weed out all the falsified and duplicated registrants when it issued its initial numbers. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:35, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As you can see, the estimates concern the number of registered Palestinian refugees. What that means is that at certain dates, UNRWA counted how many Palestinians that had registered refugee status. Those numbers are different from the 726,000 number which is an estimate of how many refugees fled from Israel. The Committee did not "revise" this number but instead choose to pick a more conservative number for some reason or the other not explained in the source. 726,000 has however, been referenced by many other UN documents as their choosen estimate. Palestine-info 18:48, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That was not the estimate my mention of registered Palestinian refugees referred to. Do you understand that the following numbers are not estimates, 957,000, 914,000 or not? Palestine-info 19:02, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The numbers represent the number of registered Palestinian refugees at certain points in time. Your selection of 876,000 is entierly arbitrary. Palestine-info 11:37, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The distinction between interim and final is somewhat blurred, especially if one wants to take figures dating from 1950 and beyond. The refugees who left in 1948-9 were dying and/or having children like a normal population. Most children (but not all) were included in the counts of registered refugees. Since there were more children than deaths, the numbers kept increasing and are still increasing today. Unless you want to include numbers up to the present, you should cut it off at about the dates of the armistice agreements. Another problem with the article is the use of the word "registered". At the time of the Mediators' reports I don't think it was a particularly formal concept. References to refugees who "registered" probably just meant that they fronted up to the disaster relief officials and identified themselves as refugees. Later on when UNRWA got organized there was a formal definition of refugee and systematic listing of names was done. -- Zero 11:57, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If it was up to me, only numbers which has been used to refer to the total number of refugees should be included. Unfortunately, that means that numbers such as 957,000 and 472,000 should be included since they have been used for that purpouse. I don't get the logic behind in including numbers from before the armistice, but excluding numbers from shortly after it. Also remember that Israel expelled quite a few Palestinians after the armistice and their numbers are usually counted as refugees of the original diaspora. Palestine-info 12:14, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You are misquoting me. I said that we should use those numbers others use. ... to present what others say is the truth. Yes, it means including faulty information such as the 472,000 figure, but it is better than trying to argue what the truth is. Numbers that has been used as an "Estimate of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948." Palestine-info 22:20, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
First, the UNRWA hasn't choosen any "final" number. Look at UNRWA:s own site and you will see 914,000 mentioned. That you choose to interpret that as their final number is your opinion, but not the UNRWA:s. Secondly, the policy I talked about is WP:NPOV, "The neutral point of view policy states that articles should be written without bias, representing all views fairly." The question asked is "How many Palestinians fled Israel in the Palestine war?" The question has two dozen answers, that is those answers and who is answering them that this page is all about. Fourth, I don't think you understand what the UNRWA numbers mean. We know that 1. In 1950 there were 957,000 Palestinians under relief rolls (assumedly, many of them duplicates). 2. In 1951 there were 875,998 Palestinians under relief rolls. One reason that the latter number was lower was duplicate registrations, another that some of them became self-sufficient. Because when they were self-sufficient they weren't entitled to UNRWA relief. Furthermore, there is nothing "interim" with the number decreasing just as there is nothing "interim" with that the number rose later. Fifth, I agree that the crap should go. Palestine-info 23:11, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing final with the number 875,998 (which is their number, it is a count not an estimate). It is just the number of registered Palestinian refugees in 1951 detailed in the 1951 issue of Report of the Director of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. What you mean when you write "The UNRWA's view was that the actual number was 876,000" is beyond me. I have never stated that we should quote every single view one finds on the web. What I said was that "The website has to qualify by some criterion of 'notability.'" I don't know how to solve this because obviously you are not listening and probably not even reading what it is that I'm writing. Why do you think that the number in the 1951 issue of the director's report is more final than the numbers mentioned in 1952, 53, 54.. 1998? Palestine-info 00:19, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I understand you. But do you understand that the numbers 957,000 and 875,998 refers to two different things? You seem to think that the numbers are measurements done at two different times measuring of the same thing. Not so, they are counts of the registered refugee population. One of the reason that the number varies is, as you say, fraud, other reasons include employment (you don't get aid if you are self-sufficient), unemployment (you get aid if you are unemployed), population growth etc. It seems to me that you think they did one study and their first guess was 957,000 and then they found the more accurate number 876,000. Palestine-info 00:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the added estimates, Zero. To be honest, many of these estimates are dubious at best, but I'm not sure how one differentiates between the dubious and non-dubious ones in any NPOV way that everyone could agree to. Also, I suspect this information would be better presented in a table, if only I knew how to do that. Jayjg | (Talk) 15:34, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It's not really clear to me what the difference is between the two "final" UN numbers, 711,000 and 876,000. Which one is the final UN count? -- MPerel( talk | contrib) 23:43, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
There is no final UN count. The working definition used by the UNRWA is: "a person normally resident in Palestine who has lost his home and his livelihood as a result of the hostilities, and who is in need." That includes the offspring of the refugees too. The discrepancy is because the first number 726,000 (which Jayjg thinks is "interim") is "calculated." First by estimating how many Palestinians there were before Israel occupied Palestine and deducting those that remained. That number is heavily dependant on what birthrate one chooses and upon the village survey the British undertook in 44/45, but it is doubtful that that survey was very accurate. And it doesn't take into account internal refugees (people who lost their homes but remained inside Israel's borders), or border-line refugees (people who lost their livelihood but not their home). And then there is the bedouins that wandered around in the desert in Egypt, Palestine and Jordan, they had no home, did they become refugees? Basically, it is nigh impossible to make an accurate estimate and I guess that is why there are so many of them. Palestine-info 02:59, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"The estimate of the statistical expert, which the Committee believes to be as accurate as circumstances permit, indicates that the refugees from Israel- controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000. The fact that there is a higher number of relief recipients appears to be due among other things to duplication of ration cards, addition of persons who have been displaced from area other than Israel-held areas and of persons who, although not displaced, are destitute." [7] Jayjg (talk) 17:58, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That is exactly what the document says. But as I have pointed out, nowhere does it say that their estimate (711,000) is "final" or that the Economic Survey Missions number (726,000) is "interim." Palestine-info 18:36, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A. The page states "According to the Final Report of the United Nations Economic Survey Mission .." You are mistaken about who is actually doing the number reporting. B. A later estimate used by the same Commission is 800,000 - 900,000, by your logic then, the commission must have revised their number upwards. C. You have not proven any finality about any of the estimates. D. It is clearly understood that interim refers to figures that refers to estimates that does not take the total number of refugees in account. Those numbers you claim to be interim, clearly, are not interim. E. Your reply to [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#User:Palestine-info_vs._User:Jayjg this] is needed. Palestine-info 16:57, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think I have now said everything that could be said about this issue. I will refrain from discussing it until someone who listens to arguments comes around. Regarding my "blind reverts", it is not my fault that you first reverts and then inserts lots of inconsequential minor edits just to make it harder to revert your POV. If you want to avoid double-work, I suggest that you stop doing that until this dispute is solved. Palestine-info 17:46, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is not my job to pick up the pieces. I don't know if it is a tactic you are using or what. But if you want to retain your changes that aren't related to the dispute, the way to do it (so that I wont have to work double) is to first commit the unrelated changes and then revert. You have done the exact opposite, first revert then lots of minor changes, which makes it very troublesome for me to do a clean revert. Palestine-info 10:45, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have expended a great wealth of good faith upon you, but my resources are getting dry. Palestine-info 18:01, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Morris Birth Revisted, p602: "The director general of the Israel Foreign Ministry, Walter Eytan, in a private letter in late 1950 referred to the UNRWA registration in 1949 of 726,000 as ‘meticulous’ but thought that ‘the real number was close to 800,000’." There is absolutely no reason this estimate can't be included. It is a documented estimate by someone in a position to have a fair idea of the facts. Compare with "200,000 by the mid-June 1948 accoding to Emil Ghoury" which the source says was made without a "clear idea of the dispersal’s full magnitude" and states to be "less than two-thirds the actual figure". Someone had better stop playing games with this (rather useless) article. Zero talk 23:33, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Kind regards
-- Point by point ( talk) 00:04, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes "we don't know", but that's the exact reason why, I added the symbol ±, when it was not an official estimate and was only an aproximate mentioned somewhere in a book. -- ... Point by point ... ( talk) 15:32, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Point by point: Your here is directly copy-pasted from here. This violated multiple policies. Firstly, it violates WP:COPYVIO. Secondly, the book is a self-published book by a vanity publisher AuthorHouse, and fails WP:RS. Thirdly, you failed to actually cite the book, in violation of WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 23:59, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
-- Point by point ( talk) 00:16, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Functionally I don't think it really changes anything, but looking at the project Palestine rating as a "stub" is clearly in appropriate - so I'm going to make a couple of changes to make this article a list, which it pretty much follows the style guide for already. TrickyH ( talk) 09:48, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:32, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
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I have just modified 5 external links on List of estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:52, 30 December 2017 (UTC)