This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of guests at the state funeral of Elizabeth II article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 29 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of dignitaries at the state funeral of Elizabeth II to List of guests at the state funeral of Elizabeth II. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Hello, I just made a map for this article with mapchats.com, which is not the usual for Wikipedia (I used map charts because I am new to making Maps and don't know the basics). And I just want to see what everyone thinks about this
in my opinion it gives a visual element to this article that helps the reader better understand 4me689 ( talk) 22:10, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
After she already disapeared from the list do we already have proof that she won't attend? And in my opinion I wouldn't be surprised because she already was frail some years ago. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 16:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Then why is she added again? 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 16:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Should there be something like that for the descendents of her Bowes-Lyon grandparents? !Sir Simon Bowes-Lyon, first cousin! for example? 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 17:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Nothing heard yet. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 19:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm really suprised today finding a very big part of the family but not one Bowes-Lyon. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 13:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Actually there were quite a few Bowes-Lyon relatives there. If you watch the footage carefully, you can see them in the quire seating at Westminster Abbey and near the front in St. George’s Chapel. As they are not listed anywhere else, I visually identified some of them using existing photos of Bowes-Lyon relatives. I have added them in an invisible comment for now. Others can help check and identify. I hope this is not considered banned original research. QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 19:57, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
That also means all remaining first cousins were present. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 14:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
What idiot has deleted them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 11:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
I have added back a Bowes-Lyon section. Hope it doesn’t get deleted again. Go to Getty Images 1243350811 and 1243350241 and/or look at the funeral footage for the quire section where extended relations including Bowes-Lyon were seated. A few are still unidentified. QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 18:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC) Nothing definitive on Albemarle Bowes-Lyon yet? 79.238.83.116 ( talk) 08:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
I'd be interested to know my fellow Wikipedians thoughts on if we should continue to list the presidents of Commonwealth republics with the prime ministers of the Realms, or if they should be listed with the other Republican heads of state. Richiepip ( talk) 21:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't think it's a problem, as it is somewhat implicit that they are republics that were once kingdoms of the Windsors. I think of classifying republican heads of state in 3 categories (former empires, former kingdoms and without a monarchic past) HealthKnight1993 ( talk) 22:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
In my opinion, flag icons on Members of non-reigning royal houses is a good idea. It will help illustrate what country there from, and will make it more readable. (Also this is unrelated but i really want more comments on the Talk page of User:4me689/the most important deaths of each year (2000 - present).) 4me689 ( talk) 16:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
These three are Commonwealth heads of states and foreign monarches, where should these three be put?-- Billytanghh ( talk) 17:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
You are thinking too complicated I think. 2003:DA:CF15:DF05:C17D:3211:A656:A2B4 ( talk) 12:10, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I reverted the recent edit where the sub-section for non-reigning royal houses is separated into three sub-sections: non-reigning national royal houses, members of German royal houses, and non-national royal houses. I find the classifications particularly arbitrary and the segregation unnecessary and have removed them. None of them are currently reigning so for such a minor part of this list page, I don't think it's extremely necessary to separate them into three sub-groups. EDIT: It has been reverted back to a single list by Peter Ormond (thanks!). HolaQuetzalcoatl ( talk) 15:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
The Holy Khan and Sovereign Prince of Hohenstaufen of the Sovereign See is set to attend the funeral, confirmed by the imperial court. The status of the Sovereign See is disputed, it’s recognized by a fraction of the states. His attendance is was noted, but is recently deleted from the page 89.205.132.242 ( talk) 15:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it is fake. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 14:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Should the relationships of other European royals to the late monarch be mentioned in this article? Was done in case of her late husband's funeral (see Death and funeral of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh) Aumnamahashiva ( talk) 17:55, 17 September 2022 (UTC) Yes it would be helpful and was done in the past. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 12:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I could not find anyone from Thailand, neither the king nor members of the royal house nor other dignitaries of the country. In the section about not-invited dignitaries Thailand isn't mentioned either, or did I overlook something? So, what about Thailand? Altaripensis2 ( talk) 20:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
There are countries that have not yet informed about their delegations and have been invited (or there is no known express non-invitation). We will have to wait. _-_Alsor ( talk) 21:47, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I feel it would be worth separating the representatives from Commonwealth realms from the wider commonwealth dignitaries. The Queen was Head of State of 14 other countries and I believe it’s important to separate those representatives from others where the Queen was not. Thoughts? TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 15:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
group | flag | country | fuction | name |
---|---|---|---|---|
Royal family |
![]() |
United Kingdom | King | Charles III |
Commonwealth |
![]() |
Australia | Prime minister | Anthony Albanese |
Commonwealth |
![]() |
Canada | Prime minister | Justin Trudeau |
Commonwealth |
![]() |
Canada | Governor General | Mary Simon |
Foreign royalty |
![]() |
the Netherlands | King | Willem-Alexander |
etc. | etc. | etc. | etc. | etc. |
The current version is acceptable. We don't need any further changes. The United Kingdom, Australia, Canada & New Zealand were the only countries that were Commonwealth realms, her entire reign. GoodDay ( talk) 16:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
May we please allow the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia & New Zealand have their own separate sections? These are the 'four' countries, that were Commonwealth realms during Elizabeth II's entire reign. Besides, they're also the four who are being represented by a big number of dignitaries. The 11 other realms are being represented by no more the two or three people, each. GoodDay ( talk) 17:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Peter Ormond: will you please stop lumping the UK, Canada, Australia & New Zealand under the heading "Commonwealth realms". These realms should have their own separate sections. They (again) were the realms that lasted her entire reign & also are the realms with 'more then' two dignitaries. GoodDay ( talk) 18:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
It appears as though every 'few' hours, an editor is going to keep putting all the realms under 'one' section heading called "Commonwealth realms". GoodDay ( talk) 04:46, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Proof that including NZ is colonialism and racism . There are comments to include NZ because it was a country since 1947 and under the Queen's reign during her entire reign. That criteria is imperialism because the British Empire did not breakup until after World War II, much of it under QEII. The fact remains that NZ is a small country with fewer people than Chicago. NZ should not have a separate heading. Wikipedia is not a vote. CandyStalnak ( talk) 16:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Per MOS:ICON can someone explain what value the flags provide, other than decoration. Maungapohatu ( talk) 18:31, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Royalty takes precedence over republican leaders, but since Macron is also the Co-Prince of Andorra, should he be listed under foreign royalty even though he is more widely known as the French President? HolaQuetzalcoatl ( talk) 18:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I have doubts that it can be a "royal", even if he is a Co-Prince. In general, Andorran Co-Princes do not have, nor have had, any connection with any royal house itself. _-_Alsor ( talk) 20:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Considering both coprinces (also Archbishop Joan Enric Vives Sicilia, and this one attending as Andorran coprince only) assisted, and as being an Andorran myself, I consider they are our Royals and should be published together with other monarchies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexeinikolayevichromanov ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it is unlikely that President Macron would even consider himself being a royal ... Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 18:40, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
For example: Should one
UK, one
CAN, one
AUS & one
NZ be enough, for those countries dignitaries?
GoodDay (
talk)
19:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Update: I've limited the British flag to the prime minister. The Canadian, Australian & New Zealand flags, I've limited to the governors-general & prime ministers. GoodDay ( talk) 19:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I see the Turkish President has been put back on the list of International leaders after being removed. Is there independent evidence to say he is attending now? Last I saw his Foreign Sec was attending in his place. TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 22:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I’m aware that a higher number of heads of state/government are at Her Majesty’s funeral than were at Tito’s however (correct me if I’m mistaken) but Mandela’s funeral had more HoS/G than we are expecting tomorrow. I think if this is included there needs to be more clarification. There isn’t a verified list of the most attended state funerals (again correct me if I’m wrong) TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 22:54, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I've made a note regarding that Tito's funeral had a higher percent of world leaders attendance, since at that time there were less countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordi2023 ( talk • contribs) 04:43, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
The monarchies of the commonwealth realms are independent of each other and simply in a personal union, therefore the countries of the commonwealth realms should be listed in alphabetical order rather than the UK being at the top. Mitsuyashi ( talk) 02:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Obviously nobody has noticed the above discussion & it's getting tiresome, seeing the UK, Canada, Australia & New Zealand put under the "Commonwealth realms" section, when they deserve each their 'own' sections. So why bother anymore, with it. GoodDay ( talk) 04:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I still oppose @ Mitsuyashi:'s version, which he implemented a few hours ago. But if we're going to list the only realms that existed during Elizabeth II's entire reign, under "Commonwealth realms"? The UK must be listed first. It's the oldest of the realms & it's where the royal family resides & are first & most associated with. Also, the state funeral is being held in the United Kingdom. After the UK? put the next realms-in-question, in order of their coming into existence, Canada, Australia & New Zealand. GoodDay ( talk) 05:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
@GoodDay: I too support UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand being under their own sections TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 08:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
No non-reigning royal house has sent four members to Westminster Abbey. Princess Elena of Romania and Alexander Nixon were not present at the funeral itself. -- Enredados ( talk) 12:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Lord Elton was there as was Earl of Airlie. Earl Spencer. 109.245.175.167 ( talk) 13:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it's relevant in the introduction to list the countries that Elizabeth II was head of state of. This was reverted (without summary); I've reinstated it. What do others think?
Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom and 14 other Commonwealth realms: Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, and Tuvalu
Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 13:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
In her capacity as Queen of the United Kingdom (including the British overseas territories), she was also monarch of three Crown Dependencies—the Channel Island of Guernsey and Jersey (as the Duke of Normandy), and the Isle of Man (as the Lord of Mann)—and, in her capacity as Queen of New Zealand, she was monarch of two associated states—the Cook Islands and Niue.
Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 16:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Have number of countries who attended been verified? And if so, is this the largest collection of Heads of State / Government for a state funeral? TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 16:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Assuming that all countries present are on the article, I have done the math on how many countries attended. The UN has 193 member states and two observer states (Palestine and Vatican City). The UK recognizes Kosovo, so Kosovo counts. The Iraqi Kurdistan doesn't count. Counting countries that did not attend for whatever reason:
So we have 193 - 28 + 2 + 1 = 168 countries attending.
In percentage, 85.7% of these 196 countries attended (168/196).
I also counted 19 monarchs, 55 presidents and 25 prime ministers.
I am going to update the article based on this. Anotherwikipedianuser ( talk) 18:42, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Is there any overwhelming reason why we can't show Camilla as "Queen consort" in the Royal family section? GoodDay ( talk) 20:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I tried to make him visible as well as his wife because they were confirmed but some kind of mistake happened. Please help. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 20:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Were there any VIPs from Botswana in attendance who can be included with this article? It seems odd that they're missing, since Botswana is a Commonwealth nation. I know the President Masisi couldn't attend, because he was in New York for the UNGA. Scanlan ( talk) 02:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
One of my friends says he saw Captain Mark Phillips (the former son-in-law of the Queen) in the congregation? I can find no source to confirm or deny this. Can anyone help? Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 19:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
There is now a claim he attended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.238.80.224 ( talk) 13:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
People, go search “Queen Birchall” on Getty Images (click Editorial below). There are several images of the nave at the Queen’s committal. The person I think is Mark Phillips is seated on the left middle, triangulated by a column, a red uniform, and a brown suit. Three rows in front is I think Andrew Parker Bowles. Thoughts? QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 00:34, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
This is another of those Royalty or not questions. The Vice-President of the UAE (representing the President) may be a royal, but he was there representing a President - and the United Arab Emirates is technically a republic - should their representation not be included in the non-Commonwealth Heads of State section, and not the Reigning royal houses section? Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 19:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Nauru is a member country of the Commonwealth. The last section is "Uninvited" and lists Nauru. Nauru doesn't have a Communist government, nor a repressive government. It cooperates with Australia. It is mind boggling if Nauru wasn't invited. Wikipedia claims this so it should have a citation.
It is plausible that Nauru is poor so they didn't want to send someone to save money. Nauru has (?) less than 25,000 people. CandyStalnak ( talk) 06:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
According to the London Diplomatic List [2] Mr Martin W.L. Weston is the Honorary Consul for the Republic of Nauru, living in Sevenoaks in Kent - do we know if he was in attendance at the funeral? Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 21:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
He was deleted? 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 14:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC) Oh nothing there 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 16:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Please send a real source — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 17:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Some countries have people listed under that country but were not part of the country's official delegation. Yet not all people who are not part of an official delegation are listed. This means that it may be original research, which is banned in Wikipedia. CandyStalnak ( talk) 17:00, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Should New Zealand have its own section? I'm asking this, because there's been arguments put forward that it shouldn't.
GoodDay (
talk)
18:05, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Note - During this RfC, the layout-in-question has been changed (for the time being), giving only the United Kingdom its own section. GoodDay ( talk) 12:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
This argues for a yes-vote for NZ, but a no-vote if the question were raised about Jamaica, Bahamas, or Grenada which should be perhaps instead included underVery short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading.
===Caribbean===
and Tuvalu, Solomons, etc. regrouped under 'Oceania' or 'Pacific islands', and so on.
Mathglot (
talk)
12:13, 25 September 2022 (UTC)Reasons for inclusion of New Zealand include 1. NZ has been independent of the UK since 1947, about 5 years before QE2, 2. NZ is a rich White nation (that's reality).
Reasons for inclusion of New Zealand with other Commonwealth realms, not separately include
1. NZ has a very small population, less than the size of a major city. Less than half the population of metropolitan Chicago. Less than the tiny country of Singapore.
2. Smacks of racism and colonialism to include NZ but exclude Papua New Guinea, a country with more than double the population of NZ. PNG's head of state was QE2 and is now Charles III. PNG has accepted QE2 every since it was a country but NZ did not as it had a King for a few years.
3. PM Ardern of the NZ predicted that NZ would eventually be a Republic. No such prediction by the PM of PNG.
Possible compromise is to include PNG and NZ. Possible decision is to have NZ combined with the rest of the others and have only the UK, Canada, and Australia as separate sections.
I am not voting but just making statements for both sides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CandyStalnak ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak ( talk) 18:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Note - Papua New Guinea did not become a sovereign state/commonwealth realm, until 1975. Whether or not New Zealand chooses to 'one day' become a republic? is irrelevant. New Zealand's population & Papua New Guinea's population, are irrelevant. PS: - I won't even comment on the racism claim. GoodDay ( talk) 18:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Note - When Charles III dies, I am certain there will be another argument for NZ and against PNG. If so, that would be evidence that the current reason is specious. Specious (definition) - apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible; having a false look of truth or genuineness CandyStalnak ( talk) 18:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Inviting @ Mitsuyashi:, @ GenevieveDEon:, @ Anotherwikipedianuser:, @ HolaQuetzalcoatl: & @ TobiasRagg2001: to give your input, as you've all been involved in this topic in whole or in part. GoodDay ( talk) 02:26, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I can understand arguments for giving only the United Kingdom its own section.
I can understand arguments for giving only the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia & New Zealand each their own sections.
I can understand arguments for giving all the Commonwealth realms each their own section, too.
What I still don't understand? is any argument for giving only the United Kingdom, Canada & Australia sections of their own, while leaving out New Zealand.
GoodDay (
talk)
13:10, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Question - Which level of section are we discussing here? I don't see any problem with the grouping at this time [4]. CurryCity ( talk) 05:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Note: CandyStalnak has been blocked as a sock. GoodDay ( talk) 00:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Note: @ JackWilfred:, @ SMcCandlish:, @ Mathglot:, @ Lulusword:, @ Anotherwikipedianuser:, @ Ortizesp: @ GenevieveDEon:, @ Rhyddfrydol2:, @ Peter Ormond: and @ CurryCity: I've reversed a premature closure of this RFC, by an editor (F117I5/F117I2), who had been away from Wikipedia (Sept 2015 to Oct 2022) for over 'seven' years. GoodDay ( talk) 03:15, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
CandyStalnak ( talk) 20:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I support the current version where UK has its own section (because obviously the funeral is in the UK) and everything else under the realm subheading, except I wish it could be in alphabetical order for easier reading, following the format of other delegations in other categories listed in the article. Experts might know which country has closer ties to the UK but average wikipedian reader wouldn't. Lulusword (talk) 04:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
{{ rfc}}
The New Zealand list shows members of the NZ delegation but also lists New Zealanders that came in their personal capacity and not as part of their office or the NZ delegation.
Be careful because there are some Americans who attended. They could be added to the list.
A possible solution is to have a further subdivision of an official delegation and "other individuals" from that country. CandyStalnak ( talk) 01:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for closing this RFC, which means that the status quo (section with other dignitaries) has been settled as ok to have such section. CandyStalnak ( talk) 00:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
@ S Marshall:, there seems to be a misunderstanding of your closing. GoodDay ( talk) 02:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Is it really relevant to include companions of the international guests? If so, I would like to add that the Serbian (lesbian) prime minister Ana Brnabić was accompanied by her girlfriend (de facto wife, but Serbia doesn't officially recognize same-sex unions) Milica Đurđić. However, I'm not sure if it's okay to write that Đurđić is the Frist Lady, since Brnabić is a lady too. 178.223.169.120 ( talk) 21:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC) Sounds very biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 17:04, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
I sent an email to the James Harris, Honorary Consul of the Republic of Vanuatu, and on 25 September 2022 he replied: "Thank you for getting in touch with your query. I can confirm that the duty of representing Vanuatu at the State Funeral fell to me due to the non-availability of our Head of State, who was traveling to New York for the UN General Assembly meeting. Do let me know if you require any further information. Kind Regards, James Harris" Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 20:04, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Today I received an email from Claire Deakins, PA to the Honorary Consul for the Republic of Nauru to the UK. It reads: " Thank you for your email and interest in Nauru.
I confirm that Nauru was indeed represented at the funeral of the Queen.
Kind regards,
Claire Deakins" Unfortunately it doesn't confirm who represented Nauru - just that Nauru was represented. Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 14:51, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
There is currently imprecision and confusion in the article about New Zealand. Unlike Australia, whose official name is "Commonwealth of Australia", New Zealand's official name is "New Zealand", not "Commonwealth of New Zealand" or "Kingdom of New Zealand" or "People's Democratic Republic of New Zealand".
3 possibilities include "Realm of New Zealand" or "New Zealand". Be careful what you wish for. Cook Island and Niue are part of the "Realm of New Zealand" but is not part of "New Zealand". Cook Islands conducts some of its foreign affairs and has a separate King's representative. If Wikipedia is to be precise, possibilities include:
1. Sub-section heading: Realm of New Zealand
2. Sub-section heading: New Zealand, sub-sub-section headings: Cook Islands; Niue
3. Sub-section heading: Realm of New Zealand. sub-section headings: New Zealand; Cook Islands; Niue
4. WRONG: sub-section heading: New Zealand, then lump the Cook Island and Niue attendees under that
5. WRONG: sub-section heading: New Zealand, then lump the Cook Island, Niue, Nigeria, and Brazilian attendees under that.
I am not trying to be difficult but to make Wikipedia more accurate and precise. The worst is have Wikipedia unreliable and sloppy. CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
What does Wikipedia say? Niue is not a member of the United Nations (UN), but UN organisations have accepted its status as a freely associated state as equivalent to independence for the purposes of international law.[16] and Since 2001, the Cook Islands has run its own foreign and defence policy.[8]
Since the "Realm of New Zealand" is an odd term, I currently favor #2. CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
We also have to be careful because if we wrongly insist on putting Niue and Cook Islands representatives under New Zealand with no sub-sub heading, we could be on a path of putting the Republic of China Taiwan under the People's Republic of China. CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:26, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
What say you: @ JackWilfred:, @ SMcCandlish:, @ Mathglot:, @ Ortizesp:, @ Mitsuyashi:, @ GenevieveDEon: @ Anotherwikipedianuser:, @ TobiasRagg2001:, @ Peter Ormond:, @ Lulusword:, @ Rhyddfrydol2:. Noting that NZ RFC above, is still in progress. GoodDay ( talk) 01:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
There may be disagreements because of the inconsistent categories used.
A, B, C, 1, 2, 3. That is logical. However, when it's A, B, 1, alpha, C, 2, 3, beta, D, E, then it's a point of contradiction and conflict. This is happening to some extent here, mostly in the NZ part but also others. That's the root cause.
For example, the UK section is spread over many areas, like Royal family is split from UK Prime Ministers and not in one UK section. Realm and non-realm Commonwealth countries are split. With NZ, the Realm of NZ is listed as NZ but actually NZ is different than Realm of NZ (Niue and the Cook Islands are not part of NZ).
There's then the official delegation and not. With NZ, some private guests are listed with the government officials but this is not the case with some other countries.
So that's the root cause of many areas of concern. CandyStalnak ( talk) 17:20, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
=== ... ===
) so that it becomes a subsection of
#What is the official name of NZ?. Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk)
20:31, 29 September 2022 (UTC)===New Zealand===
====Cook Islands====
====Niue====
The sub-sub section pays respect to NZ as having close ties to Niue and Cook Islands but also gives due respect to the 2 independent nations (in free association with NZ) by not having them lumped entirely with NZ. That would be a fair, unbiased solution. Note that Niue and the Cook Islands are not part of NZ nation, only technically part of the Realm of NZ, which several Wikipedian have never heard of and is a very technical point that is not explained in the article (and doesn't need to if there are sub-sub sections).
Note that one could even say that it should be
===Cook Islands===
not
====Cook Islands====
because there's no Wikipedia rule or law that says that the listed country must not have any free association in order to have a separate sub-section. Note that the Marshall Islands is a nation in free association with the United States. Nobody says that the Marshall Islands must always be lumped in the with US. Note that the Cook Islands has separate embassies in several countries. The "free association" part is mainly to get NZ aid and preferential immigration treatment.
CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
=== ... ===
) so that it becomes a subsection of
#What is the official name of NZ?, and adjusted its subsections accordingly. Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk)
20:35, 29 September 2022 (UTC)nowiki
's to visualize the levels. I've
done this for you as I think it's what you intended, but if not, just revert edit 1113114696 of 20:44, 29 Sept. and it will go back to how it was before.
Mathglot (
talk)
20:50, 29 September 2022 (UTC)@ Mathglot: & others. I no longer have a clue, what exactly it is, CandyStalnak is trying to accomplish. I leave it to you all, to try & figure out. GoodDay ( talk) 22:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Note: CandyStalnak has been blocked as a sock. GoodDay ( talk) 00:30, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
NZ
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Someone told me he knows from a good source that Lady Saltoun did not attend. She has seldom travelled to London since her retirement in 2014 as she is nearing 92. 79.238.83.116 ( talk) 19:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
I know that the information about the Faith Representatives come from the official order of service but I think it needs to be reorganized in the Wiki article. On the order of service, the more senior person is to the right and sometimes to the back. Like the Archbishop of Canterbury should precede the Archbishop of York? And a Dean should precede a Sub-Dean of the same jurisdiction? I think the current “Westminster Abbey” section should go before the current “England” section. I am not completely familiar with the organization and hierarchy of all the religious groups, so I don’t want to scramble everything. QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 22:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Although both attended the funeral, they were not together. I propose listing the family as such (followed by Beatrice and Eugenie):
-- Zimbabweed ( talk) 00:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I've noticed on a few occasions, distant family members of the late queen being added, deleted, re-added, etc. Perhaps we should decide on an inclusion criteria. Example - Must be at least Elizabeth II's seventh cousin or married to Elizabeth II's seventh cousin, to be included. GoodDay ( talk) 00:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Should flag icons be on the Members of non-reigning royal houses section Yes or No 4me689 ( talk) 17:45, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Should flag icons be on the Members of non-reigning royal houses section Yes or No 4me689 ( talk) 17:45, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm open this RFC cuz theres seems to be a dispute on this issue, any thoughts??? 4me689 ( talk) 17:45, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
They shouldn't be using flags. GoodDay ( talk) 17:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
@ MariaAmaliaduchessadiParma:, this is the RFC that I'm speaking of. GoodDay ( talk) 11:20, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Were no one present? HulkNorris ( talk) 20:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC) What about this Marcia for example? HulkNorris ( talk) 20:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC) Please answer my question. 84.167.80.80 ( talk) 14:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. No quorum. Can be reverted per WP:RMUM. ( closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 03:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
List of dignitaries at the state funeral of Elizabeth II → List of guests at the state funeral of Elizabeth II – To be WP:CONSISTENT with other articles of similar nature (namely List of guests at the coronation of Charles III and Camilla). Further, it's sufficient to say that not every person mentioned is a "dignitary" by definition (using the Merriam-Webster definition of one who possesses exalted rank or holds a position of dignity or honor). estar8806 ( talk) ★ 03:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
in the article it has the name "Queen" on its own but even in the same section referring to 2 different people. Starts off with "Queen" referring to QE2 then "Queen" referring to Queen Camilla, should this be change to make it easier to follow? Jord656 ( talk) 06:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
What is the source of the Earl and Countess of Harewood, Duke and Duchess of Fife and his sister and brother-in-law as well as the Bowes-Lyon cousins attendance? Especially only at the committal servce at St George's. I can't find any source! Kowalmistrz ( talk) 13:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of guests at the state funeral of Elizabeth II article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 29 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of dignitaries at the state funeral of Elizabeth II to List of guests at the state funeral of Elizabeth II. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Hello, I just made a map for this article with mapchats.com, which is not the usual for Wikipedia (I used map charts because I am new to making Maps and don't know the basics). And I just want to see what everyone thinks about this
in my opinion it gives a visual element to this article that helps the reader better understand 4me689 ( talk) 22:10, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
After she already disapeared from the list do we already have proof that she won't attend? And in my opinion I wouldn't be surprised because she already was frail some years ago. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 16:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Then why is she added again? 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 16:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Should there be something like that for the descendents of her Bowes-Lyon grandparents? !Sir Simon Bowes-Lyon, first cousin! for example? 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 17:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Nothing heard yet. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 19:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm really suprised today finding a very big part of the family but not one Bowes-Lyon. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 13:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Actually there were quite a few Bowes-Lyon relatives there. If you watch the footage carefully, you can see them in the quire seating at Westminster Abbey and near the front in St. George’s Chapel. As they are not listed anywhere else, I visually identified some of them using existing photos of Bowes-Lyon relatives. I have added them in an invisible comment for now. Others can help check and identify. I hope this is not considered banned original research. QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 19:57, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
That also means all remaining first cousins were present. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 14:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
What idiot has deleted them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 11:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
I have added back a Bowes-Lyon section. Hope it doesn’t get deleted again. Go to Getty Images 1243350811 and 1243350241 and/or look at the funeral footage for the quire section where extended relations including Bowes-Lyon were seated. A few are still unidentified. QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 18:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC) Nothing definitive on Albemarle Bowes-Lyon yet? 79.238.83.116 ( talk) 08:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
I'd be interested to know my fellow Wikipedians thoughts on if we should continue to list the presidents of Commonwealth republics with the prime ministers of the Realms, or if they should be listed with the other Republican heads of state. Richiepip ( talk) 21:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't think it's a problem, as it is somewhat implicit that they are republics that were once kingdoms of the Windsors. I think of classifying republican heads of state in 3 categories (former empires, former kingdoms and without a monarchic past) HealthKnight1993 ( talk) 22:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
In my opinion, flag icons on Members of non-reigning royal houses is a good idea. It will help illustrate what country there from, and will make it more readable. (Also this is unrelated but i really want more comments on the Talk page of User:4me689/the most important deaths of each year (2000 - present).) 4me689 ( talk) 16:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
These three are Commonwealth heads of states and foreign monarches, where should these three be put?-- Billytanghh ( talk) 17:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
You are thinking too complicated I think. 2003:DA:CF15:DF05:C17D:3211:A656:A2B4 ( talk) 12:10, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I reverted the recent edit where the sub-section for non-reigning royal houses is separated into three sub-sections: non-reigning national royal houses, members of German royal houses, and non-national royal houses. I find the classifications particularly arbitrary and the segregation unnecessary and have removed them. None of them are currently reigning so for such a minor part of this list page, I don't think it's extremely necessary to separate them into three sub-groups. EDIT: It has been reverted back to a single list by Peter Ormond (thanks!). HolaQuetzalcoatl ( talk) 15:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
The Holy Khan and Sovereign Prince of Hohenstaufen of the Sovereign See is set to attend the funeral, confirmed by the imperial court. The status of the Sovereign See is disputed, it’s recognized by a fraction of the states. His attendance is was noted, but is recently deleted from the page 89.205.132.242 ( talk) 15:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it is fake. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 14:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Should the relationships of other European royals to the late monarch be mentioned in this article? Was done in case of her late husband's funeral (see Death and funeral of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh) Aumnamahashiva ( talk) 17:55, 17 September 2022 (UTC) Yes it would be helpful and was done in the past. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 12:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I could not find anyone from Thailand, neither the king nor members of the royal house nor other dignitaries of the country. In the section about not-invited dignitaries Thailand isn't mentioned either, or did I overlook something? So, what about Thailand? Altaripensis2 ( talk) 20:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
There are countries that have not yet informed about their delegations and have been invited (or there is no known express non-invitation). We will have to wait. _-_Alsor ( talk) 21:47, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I feel it would be worth separating the representatives from Commonwealth realms from the wider commonwealth dignitaries. The Queen was Head of State of 14 other countries and I believe it’s important to separate those representatives from others where the Queen was not. Thoughts? TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 15:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
group | flag | country | fuction | name |
---|---|---|---|---|
Royal family |
![]() |
United Kingdom | King | Charles III |
Commonwealth |
![]() |
Australia | Prime minister | Anthony Albanese |
Commonwealth |
![]() |
Canada | Prime minister | Justin Trudeau |
Commonwealth |
![]() |
Canada | Governor General | Mary Simon |
Foreign royalty |
![]() |
the Netherlands | King | Willem-Alexander |
etc. | etc. | etc. | etc. | etc. |
The current version is acceptable. We don't need any further changes. The United Kingdom, Australia, Canada & New Zealand were the only countries that were Commonwealth realms, her entire reign. GoodDay ( talk) 16:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
May we please allow the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia & New Zealand have their own separate sections? These are the 'four' countries, that were Commonwealth realms during Elizabeth II's entire reign. Besides, they're also the four who are being represented by a big number of dignitaries. The 11 other realms are being represented by no more the two or three people, each. GoodDay ( talk) 17:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Peter Ormond: will you please stop lumping the UK, Canada, Australia & New Zealand under the heading "Commonwealth realms". These realms should have their own separate sections. They (again) were the realms that lasted her entire reign & also are the realms with 'more then' two dignitaries. GoodDay ( talk) 18:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
It appears as though every 'few' hours, an editor is going to keep putting all the realms under 'one' section heading called "Commonwealth realms". GoodDay ( talk) 04:46, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Proof that including NZ is colonialism and racism . There are comments to include NZ because it was a country since 1947 and under the Queen's reign during her entire reign. That criteria is imperialism because the British Empire did not breakup until after World War II, much of it under QEII. The fact remains that NZ is a small country with fewer people than Chicago. NZ should not have a separate heading. Wikipedia is not a vote. CandyStalnak ( talk) 16:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Per MOS:ICON can someone explain what value the flags provide, other than decoration. Maungapohatu ( talk) 18:31, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Royalty takes precedence over republican leaders, but since Macron is also the Co-Prince of Andorra, should he be listed under foreign royalty even though he is more widely known as the French President? HolaQuetzalcoatl ( talk) 18:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I have doubts that it can be a "royal", even if he is a Co-Prince. In general, Andorran Co-Princes do not have, nor have had, any connection with any royal house itself. _-_Alsor ( talk) 20:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Considering both coprinces (also Archbishop Joan Enric Vives Sicilia, and this one attending as Andorran coprince only) assisted, and as being an Andorran myself, I consider they are our Royals and should be published together with other monarchies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexeinikolayevichromanov ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it is unlikely that President Macron would even consider himself being a royal ... Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 18:40, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
For example: Should one
UK, one
CAN, one
AUS & one
NZ be enough, for those countries dignitaries?
GoodDay (
talk)
19:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Update: I've limited the British flag to the prime minister. The Canadian, Australian & New Zealand flags, I've limited to the governors-general & prime ministers. GoodDay ( talk) 19:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I see the Turkish President has been put back on the list of International leaders after being removed. Is there independent evidence to say he is attending now? Last I saw his Foreign Sec was attending in his place. TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 22:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I’m aware that a higher number of heads of state/government are at Her Majesty’s funeral than were at Tito’s however (correct me if I’m mistaken) but Mandela’s funeral had more HoS/G than we are expecting tomorrow. I think if this is included there needs to be more clarification. There isn’t a verified list of the most attended state funerals (again correct me if I’m wrong) TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 22:54, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I've made a note regarding that Tito's funeral had a higher percent of world leaders attendance, since at that time there were less countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordi2023 ( talk • contribs) 04:43, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
The monarchies of the commonwealth realms are independent of each other and simply in a personal union, therefore the countries of the commonwealth realms should be listed in alphabetical order rather than the UK being at the top. Mitsuyashi ( talk) 02:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Obviously nobody has noticed the above discussion & it's getting tiresome, seeing the UK, Canada, Australia & New Zealand put under the "Commonwealth realms" section, when they deserve each their 'own' sections. So why bother anymore, with it. GoodDay ( talk) 04:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I still oppose @ Mitsuyashi:'s version, which he implemented a few hours ago. But if we're going to list the only realms that existed during Elizabeth II's entire reign, under "Commonwealth realms"? The UK must be listed first. It's the oldest of the realms & it's where the royal family resides & are first & most associated with. Also, the state funeral is being held in the United Kingdom. After the UK? put the next realms-in-question, in order of their coming into existence, Canada, Australia & New Zealand. GoodDay ( talk) 05:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
@GoodDay: I too support UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand being under their own sections TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 08:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
No non-reigning royal house has sent four members to Westminster Abbey. Princess Elena of Romania and Alexander Nixon were not present at the funeral itself. -- Enredados ( talk) 12:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Lord Elton was there as was Earl of Airlie. Earl Spencer. 109.245.175.167 ( talk) 13:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it's relevant in the introduction to list the countries that Elizabeth II was head of state of. This was reverted (without summary); I've reinstated it. What do others think?
Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom and 14 other Commonwealth realms: Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, and Tuvalu
Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 13:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
In her capacity as Queen of the United Kingdom (including the British overseas territories), she was also monarch of three Crown Dependencies—the Channel Island of Guernsey and Jersey (as the Duke of Normandy), and the Isle of Man (as the Lord of Mann)—and, in her capacity as Queen of New Zealand, she was monarch of two associated states—the Cook Islands and Niue.
Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 16:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Have number of countries who attended been verified? And if so, is this the largest collection of Heads of State / Government for a state funeral? TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 16:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Assuming that all countries present are on the article, I have done the math on how many countries attended. The UN has 193 member states and two observer states (Palestine and Vatican City). The UK recognizes Kosovo, so Kosovo counts. The Iraqi Kurdistan doesn't count. Counting countries that did not attend for whatever reason:
So we have 193 - 28 + 2 + 1 = 168 countries attending.
In percentage, 85.7% of these 196 countries attended (168/196).
I also counted 19 monarchs, 55 presidents and 25 prime ministers.
I am going to update the article based on this. Anotherwikipedianuser ( talk) 18:42, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Is there any overwhelming reason why we can't show Camilla as "Queen consort" in the Royal family section? GoodDay ( talk) 20:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I tried to make him visible as well as his wife because they were confirmed but some kind of mistake happened. Please help. 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 20:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Were there any VIPs from Botswana in attendance who can be included with this article? It seems odd that they're missing, since Botswana is a Commonwealth nation. I know the President Masisi couldn't attend, because he was in New York for the UNGA. Scanlan ( talk) 02:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
One of my friends says he saw Captain Mark Phillips (the former son-in-law of the Queen) in the congregation? I can find no source to confirm or deny this. Can anyone help? Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 19:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
There is now a claim he attended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.238.80.224 ( talk) 13:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
People, go search “Queen Birchall” on Getty Images (click Editorial below). There are several images of the nave at the Queen’s committal. The person I think is Mark Phillips is seated on the left middle, triangulated by a column, a red uniform, and a brown suit. Three rows in front is I think Andrew Parker Bowles. Thoughts? QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 00:34, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
This is another of those Royalty or not questions. The Vice-President of the UAE (representing the President) may be a royal, but he was there representing a President - and the United Arab Emirates is technically a republic - should their representation not be included in the non-Commonwealth Heads of State section, and not the Reigning royal houses section? Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 19:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Nauru is a member country of the Commonwealth. The last section is "Uninvited" and lists Nauru. Nauru doesn't have a Communist government, nor a repressive government. It cooperates with Australia. It is mind boggling if Nauru wasn't invited. Wikipedia claims this so it should have a citation.
It is plausible that Nauru is poor so they didn't want to send someone to save money. Nauru has (?) less than 25,000 people. CandyStalnak ( talk) 06:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
According to the London Diplomatic List [2] Mr Martin W.L. Weston is the Honorary Consul for the Republic of Nauru, living in Sevenoaks in Kent - do we know if he was in attendance at the funeral? Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 21:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
He was deleted? 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 14:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC) Oh nothing there 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 16:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Please send a real source — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 17:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Some countries have people listed under that country but were not part of the country's official delegation. Yet not all people who are not part of an official delegation are listed. This means that it may be original research, which is banned in Wikipedia. CandyStalnak ( talk) 17:00, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Should New Zealand have its own section? I'm asking this, because there's been arguments put forward that it shouldn't.
GoodDay (
talk)
18:05, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Note - During this RfC, the layout-in-question has been changed (for the time being), giving only the United Kingdom its own section. GoodDay ( talk) 12:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
This argues for a yes-vote for NZ, but a no-vote if the question were raised about Jamaica, Bahamas, or Grenada which should be perhaps instead included underVery short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading.
===Caribbean===
and Tuvalu, Solomons, etc. regrouped under 'Oceania' or 'Pacific islands', and so on.
Mathglot (
talk)
12:13, 25 September 2022 (UTC)Reasons for inclusion of New Zealand include 1. NZ has been independent of the UK since 1947, about 5 years before QE2, 2. NZ is a rich White nation (that's reality).
Reasons for inclusion of New Zealand with other Commonwealth realms, not separately include
1. NZ has a very small population, less than the size of a major city. Less than half the population of metropolitan Chicago. Less than the tiny country of Singapore.
2. Smacks of racism and colonialism to include NZ but exclude Papua New Guinea, a country with more than double the population of NZ. PNG's head of state was QE2 and is now Charles III. PNG has accepted QE2 every since it was a country but NZ did not as it had a King for a few years.
3. PM Ardern of the NZ predicted that NZ would eventually be a Republic. No such prediction by the PM of PNG.
Possible compromise is to include PNG and NZ. Possible decision is to have NZ combined with the rest of the others and have only the UK, Canada, and Australia as separate sections.
I am not voting but just making statements for both sides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CandyStalnak ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak ( talk) 18:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Note - Papua New Guinea did not become a sovereign state/commonwealth realm, until 1975. Whether or not New Zealand chooses to 'one day' become a republic? is irrelevant. New Zealand's population & Papua New Guinea's population, are irrelevant. PS: - I won't even comment on the racism claim. GoodDay ( talk) 18:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Note - When Charles III dies, I am certain there will be another argument for NZ and against PNG. If so, that would be evidence that the current reason is specious. Specious (definition) - apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible; having a false look of truth or genuineness CandyStalnak ( talk) 18:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Inviting @ Mitsuyashi:, @ GenevieveDEon:, @ Anotherwikipedianuser:, @ HolaQuetzalcoatl: & @ TobiasRagg2001: to give your input, as you've all been involved in this topic in whole or in part. GoodDay ( talk) 02:26, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I can understand arguments for giving only the United Kingdom its own section.
I can understand arguments for giving only the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia & New Zealand each their own sections.
I can understand arguments for giving all the Commonwealth realms each their own section, too.
What I still don't understand? is any argument for giving only the United Kingdom, Canada & Australia sections of their own, while leaving out New Zealand.
GoodDay (
talk)
13:10, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Question - Which level of section are we discussing here? I don't see any problem with the grouping at this time [4]. CurryCity ( talk) 05:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Note: CandyStalnak has been blocked as a sock. GoodDay ( talk) 00:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Note: @ JackWilfred:, @ SMcCandlish:, @ Mathglot:, @ Lulusword:, @ Anotherwikipedianuser:, @ Ortizesp: @ GenevieveDEon:, @ Rhyddfrydol2:, @ Peter Ormond: and @ CurryCity: I've reversed a premature closure of this RFC, by an editor (F117I5/F117I2), who had been away from Wikipedia (Sept 2015 to Oct 2022) for over 'seven' years. GoodDay ( talk) 03:15, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
CandyStalnak ( talk) 20:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I support the current version where UK has its own section (because obviously the funeral is in the UK) and everything else under the realm subheading, except I wish it could be in alphabetical order for easier reading, following the format of other delegations in other categories listed in the article. Experts might know which country has closer ties to the UK but average wikipedian reader wouldn't. Lulusword (talk) 04:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
{{ rfc}}
The New Zealand list shows members of the NZ delegation but also lists New Zealanders that came in their personal capacity and not as part of their office or the NZ delegation.
Be careful because there are some Americans who attended. They could be added to the list.
A possible solution is to have a further subdivision of an official delegation and "other individuals" from that country. CandyStalnak ( talk) 01:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for closing this RFC, which means that the status quo (section with other dignitaries) has been settled as ok to have such section. CandyStalnak ( talk) 00:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
@ S Marshall:, there seems to be a misunderstanding of your closing. GoodDay ( talk) 02:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Is it really relevant to include companions of the international guests? If so, I would like to add that the Serbian (lesbian) prime minister Ana Brnabić was accompanied by her girlfriend (de facto wife, but Serbia doesn't officially recognize same-sex unions) Milica Đurđić. However, I'm not sure if it's okay to write that Đurđić is the Frist Lady, since Brnabić is a lady too. 178.223.169.120 ( talk) 21:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC) Sounds very biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.95.47 ( talk) 17:04, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
I sent an email to the James Harris, Honorary Consul of the Republic of Vanuatu, and on 25 September 2022 he replied: "Thank you for getting in touch with your query. I can confirm that the duty of representing Vanuatu at the State Funeral fell to me due to the non-availability of our Head of State, who was traveling to New York for the UN General Assembly meeting. Do let me know if you require any further information. Kind Regards, James Harris" Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 20:04, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Today I received an email from Claire Deakins, PA to the Honorary Consul for the Republic of Nauru to the UK. It reads: " Thank you for your email and interest in Nauru.
I confirm that Nauru was indeed represented at the funeral of the Queen.
Kind regards,
Claire Deakins" Unfortunately it doesn't confirm who represented Nauru - just that Nauru was represented. Rhyddfrydol2 ( talk) 14:51, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
There is currently imprecision and confusion in the article about New Zealand. Unlike Australia, whose official name is "Commonwealth of Australia", New Zealand's official name is "New Zealand", not "Commonwealth of New Zealand" or "Kingdom of New Zealand" or "People's Democratic Republic of New Zealand".
3 possibilities include "Realm of New Zealand" or "New Zealand". Be careful what you wish for. Cook Island and Niue are part of the "Realm of New Zealand" but is not part of "New Zealand". Cook Islands conducts some of its foreign affairs and has a separate King's representative. If Wikipedia is to be precise, possibilities include:
1. Sub-section heading: Realm of New Zealand
2. Sub-section heading: New Zealand, sub-sub-section headings: Cook Islands; Niue
3. Sub-section heading: Realm of New Zealand. sub-section headings: New Zealand; Cook Islands; Niue
4. WRONG: sub-section heading: New Zealand, then lump the Cook Island and Niue attendees under that
5. WRONG: sub-section heading: New Zealand, then lump the Cook Island, Niue, Nigeria, and Brazilian attendees under that.
I am not trying to be difficult but to make Wikipedia more accurate and precise. The worst is have Wikipedia unreliable and sloppy. CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
What does Wikipedia say? Niue is not a member of the United Nations (UN), but UN organisations have accepted its status as a freely associated state as equivalent to independence for the purposes of international law.[16] and Since 2001, the Cook Islands has run its own foreign and defence policy.[8]
Since the "Realm of New Zealand" is an odd term, I currently favor #2. CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
We also have to be careful because if we wrongly insist on putting Niue and Cook Islands representatives under New Zealand with no sub-sub heading, we could be on a path of putting the Republic of China Taiwan under the People's Republic of China. CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:26, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
What say you: @ JackWilfred:, @ SMcCandlish:, @ Mathglot:, @ Ortizesp:, @ Mitsuyashi:, @ GenevieveDEon: @ Anotherwikipedianuser:, @ TobiasRagg2001:, @ Peter Ormond:, @ Lulusword:, @ Rhyddfrydol2:. Noting that NZ RFC above, is still in progress. GoodDay ( talk) 01:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
There may be disagreements because of the inconsistent categories used.
A, B, C, 1, 2, 3. That is logical. However, when it's A, B, 1, alpha, C, 2, 3, beta, D, E, then it's a point of contradiction and conflict. This is happening to some extent here, mostly in the NZ part but also others. That's the root cause.
For example, the UK section is spread over many areas, like Royal family is split from UK Prime Ministers and not in one UK section. Realm and non-realm Commonwealth countries are split. With NZ, the Realm of NZ is listed as NZ but actually NZ is different than Realm of NZ (Niue and the Cook Islands are not part of NZ).
There's then the official delegation and not. With NZ, some private guests are listed with the government officials but this is not the case with some other countries.
So that's the root cause of many areas of concern. CandyStalnak ( talk) 17:20, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
=== ... ===
) so that it becomes a subsection of
#What is the official name of NZ?. Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk)
20:31, 29 September 2022 (UTC)===New Zealand===
====Cook Islands====
====Niue====
The sub-sub section pays respect to NZ as having close ties to Niue and Cook Islands but also gives due respect to the 2 independent nations (in free association with NZ) by not having them lumped entirely with NZ. That would be a fair, unbiased solution. Note that Niue and the Cook Islands are not part of NZ nation, only technically part of the Realm of NZ, which several Wikipedian have never heard of and is a very technical point that is not explained in the article (and doesn't need to if there are sub-sub sections).
Note that one could even say that it should be
===Cook Islands===
not
====Cook Islands====
because there's no Wikipedia rule or law that says that the listed country must not have any free association in order to have a separate sub-section. Note that the Marshall Islands is a nation in free association with the United States. Nobody says that the Marshall Islands must always be lumped in the with US. Note that the Cook Islands has separate embassies in several countries. The "free association" part is mainly to get NZ aid and preferential immigration treatment.
CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak ( talk) 19:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
=== ... ===
) so that it becomes a subsection of
#What is the official name of NZ?, and adjusted its subsections accordingly. Thanks,
Mathglot (
talk)
20:35, 29 September 2022 (UTC)nowiki
's to visualize the levels. I've
done this for you as I think it's what you intended, but if not, just revert edit 1113114696 of 20:44, 29 Sept. and it will go back to how it was before.
Mathglot (
talk)
20:50, 29 September 2022 (UTC)@ Mathglot: & others. I no longer have a clue, what exactly it is, CandyStalnak is trying to accomplish. I leave it to you all, to try & figure out. GoodDay ( talk) 22:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Note: CandyStalnak has been blocked as a sock. GoodDay ( talk) 00:30, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
NZ
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Someone told me he knows from a good source that Lady Saltoun did not attend. She has seldom travelled to London since her retirement in 2014 as she is nearing 92. 79.238.83.116 ( talk) 19:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
I know that the information about the Faith Representatives come from the official order of service but I think it needs to be reorganized in the Wiki article. On the order of service, the more senior person is to the right and sometimes to the back. Like the Archbishop of Canterbury should precede the Archbishop of York? And a Dean should precede a Sub-Dean of the same jurisdiction? I think the current “Westminster Abbey” section should go before the current “England” section. I am not completely familiar with the organization and hierarchy of all the religious groups, so I don’t want to scramble everything. QW3RTYP13.14 ( talk) 22:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Although both attended the funeral, they were not together. I propose listing the family as such (followed by Beatrice and Eugenie):
-- Zimbabweed ( talk) 00:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I've noticed on a few occasions, distant family members of the late queen being added, deleted, re-added, etc. Perhaps we should decide on an inclusion criteria. Example - Must be at least Elizabeth II's seventh cousin or married to Elizabeth II's seventh cousin, to be included. GoodDay ( talk) 00:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Should flag icons be on the Members of non-reigning royal houses section Yes or No 4me689 ( talk) 17:45, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Should flag icons be on the Members of non-reigning royal houses section Yes or No 4me689 ( talk) 17:45, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm open this RFC cuz theres seems to be a dispute on this issue, any thoughts??? 4me689 ( talk) 17:45, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
They shouldn't be using flags. GoodDay ( talk) 17:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
@ MariaAmaliaduchessadiParma:, this is the RFC that I'm speaking of. GoodDay ( talk) 11:20, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Were no one present? HulkNorris ( talk) 20:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC) What about this Marcia for example? HulkNorris ( talk) 20:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC) Please answer my question. 84.167.80.80 ( talk) 14:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. No quorum. Can be reverted per WP:RMUM. ( closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 03:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
List of dignitaries at the state funeral of Elizabeth II → List of guests at the state funeral of Elizabeth II – To be WP:CONSISTENT with other articles of similar nature (namely List of guests at the coronation of Charles III and Camilla). Further, it's sufficient to say that not every person mentioned is a "dignitary" by definition (using the Merriam-Webster definition of one who possesses exalted rank or holds a position of dignity or honor). estar8806 ( talk) ★ 03:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
in the article it has the name "Queen" on its own but even in the same section referring to 2 different people. Starts off with "Queen" referring to QE2 then "Queen" referring to Queen Camilla, should this be change to make it easier to follow? Jord656 ( talk) 06:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
What is the source of the Earl and Countess of Harewood, Duke and Duchess of Fife and his sister and brother-in-law as well as the Bowes-Lyon cousins attendance? Especially only at the committal servce at St George's. I can't find any source! Kowalmistrz ( talk) 13:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)