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We need to think differently about what we normally associate with the word "coup" and get out of that tiny box that only sees a coup as the taking of power by a military overthrowal of another person in office. Because Wikipedia uses all RS, not just scholastic ones, we should follow what RS say when describing the following actions by Trump as a "coup":
Trump tried to "recoup" (=to "regain something lost or expended") an election he lost by lying about his loss and refusing to relinquish power. He violated the Constitutional rules of play and adopted an illegal course of action one normally sees in other, usually third world, nations where the one in power refuses to relinquish power after their rightful term of office has expired. We have always called that a "coup". Just because it often is aided by the military doesn't change what's at stake. It is the transfer of power which is at stake. When it doesn't happen properly, that's a "coup". What happened here is now being described by RS as a "coup", so start revising your way of thinking, because it no longer applies. It's outdated.
When someone improperly takes or keeps power, they are preventing the rightful owner of that power from exerting it, and that's a "coup". Trump's attempt was a failed coup, and what Bannon called a "bloodless coup" turned out to not be so bloodless. People were injured and died, and many lives and careers are permanently damaged. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 23:36, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I can't predict accurately the outcome of all of this. I do know that trying to put Donald Trump in any ideology box, will be problematic & this includes anything related to the 45th US president. Is he a demagogue? most likely. Is he a coup leader? you're gonna run into resistance on that one. GoodDay ( talk) 03:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Fits self-coup remarkably well, which reminds me of the jokes section in an Edinburgh newspaper after one example: Q. Why is the King of France more powerful than the Pope? A. The Pope must govern through his bulls, but the King of France can make a single coo dae it aw. . . . dave souza, talk 09:53, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The Russian October Revolution of 1917 was coup. In my opinion. It has the hallmarks of a coup. It was primarily a fight (an a short one) between soldiers. The article itself calls it a revolution, but then says "It took place through an armed insurrection in Petrograd", the armed component being initially and mostly (altho not entirely) soldiers. According to that article, the coup was provoked when "In the early morning of 24 October (O.S.; 6 November N.S.), a group of soldiers loyal to Kerensky's government marched on the printing house of the Bolshevik newspaper...", followed by "At 10 a.m., Bolshevik-aligned soldiers successfully retook the Rabochiy put printing house...". Soldiers, note, not civilians. In other words, at this point, it was was initiated by part of the army (under direct orders from Lenin's central committee, not spontaneously) standing against the government army.
Throughout the rest of the day, there were sporadic clashes "between Red Guard militias aligned with the Military-Revolutionary Committee and military units still loyal to the government". Whether these Red Guard militias were actual army units or semi-military civilian groups somewhat analoggous to the Proud Boys etc. except more organized, I don't know. They were's spontaneous groups of civilians.
Clashes. But the next day, "the Bolsheviks led their forces" against the government. How many of these were actual army units I don't know, but then a section of the Russian Fleet arrived (including marines), and these were definitely military units, acting under command, opposing the government. The Kronstadt sailors joined the coup (or revolutions), and "The Red Guards systematically captured major government facilities, key communication installations, and vantage points with little opposition. The Petrograd Garrison and most of the city's military units joined the insurrection against the Provisional Government." Still, as far as I can see, nothing involving the general populace. OTOH, "Railways and railway stations had been controlled by Soviet workers and soldiers for days [previously]"... civilian workers involved here.
Anyway, then "A final assault against the Winter Palace—against 3,000 cadets, officers, cossacks, and female soldiers—was not vigorously resisted.The Bolsheviks delayed the assault because they could not find functioning artillery. At 6:15 p.m., a large group of artillery cadets abandoned the palace, taking their artillery with them. At 8:00 p.m., 200 cossacks left the palace and returned to their barracks". (That is, some cadets and cossacks refused to fight for the government.)
Then, "As the night progressed, crowds of insurgents surrounded the palace, and many infiltrated it. At 9:45 p.m, the cruiser Aurora fired a blank shot from the harbor. "Insurgents" not soldiers, but sounds hauntingly familiar to the events of January 6 2022, which is considered a coup (arguable), and then you have a naval ship firing (one shot, but it was key). By early next morning, the government cabinet was captured. AFAIK the general populace of Petersburg did not want this even to occur. All this happened in two days (compare to the American Revolution and French Revolution, initiated by spontaneous civilian uprising and lasting years). (FWIW (not much), List of coups and coup attempts by country does include the October Revolution as a coup (we should at least get our stories straight), but then List of revolutions and rebellions includes it as a revolution/rebellion).
Of course the Bolsheviks called it a "revolution", because of course they would, and so what. Anyway, they key point is not what we think (it's a data point tho), but what important neutral sources say. So let's see. Herostratus ( talk) 18:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Since I can't edit this article, I ask that someone who can, adds the 1921 coup in Guatemala against Carlos Herrera.
/info/en/?search=Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Orellana#Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_against_Carlos_Herrera
It does not have its own article but it's mentioned within sections in articles of people involved. Magnús Hjálmarsson ( talk) 16:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of coups and coup attempts's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "NYT":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:17, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
No consensus have been reached on the many discussion pages about whether this is counted as a coup or not (though I think it is obvious if it is or not), therefore it should not be listed until a proper consensus is reached. 103.244.228.42 ( talk) 06:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
We need to think differently about what we normally associate with the word "coup" and get out of that tiny box that only sees a coup as the taking of power by a military overthrowal of another person in office. Because Wikipedia uses all RS, not just scholastic ones, we should follow what RS say when describing the following actions by Trump as a "coup":
Trump tried to "recoup" (=to "regain something lost or expended") an election he lost by lying about his loss and refusing to relinquish power. He violated the Constitutional rules of play and adopted an illegal course of action one normally sees in other, usually third world, nations where the one in power refuses to relinquish power after their rightful term of office has expired. We have always called that a "coup". Just because it often is aided by the military doesn't change what's at stake. It is the transfer of power which is at stake. When it doesn't happen properly, that's a "coup". What happened here is now being described by RS as a "coup", so start revising your way of thinking, because it no longer applies. It's outdated.
When someone improperly takes or keeps power, they are preventing the rightful owner of that power from exerting it, and that's a "coup". Trump's attempt was a failed coup, and what Bannon called a "bloodless coup" turned out to not be so bloodless. People were injured and died, and many lives and careers are permanently damaged. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 23:36, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I can't predict accurately the outcome of all of this. I do know that trying to put Donald Trump in any ideology box, will be problematic & this includes anything related to the 45th US president. Is he a demagogue? most likely. Is he a coup leader? you're gonna run into resistance on that one. GoodDay ( talk) 03:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Fits self-coup remarkably well, which reminds me of the jokes section in an Edinburgh newspaper after one example: Q. Why is the King of France more powerful than the Pope? A. The Pope must govern through his bulls, but the King of France can make a single coo dae it aw. . . . dave souza, talk 09:53, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The Russian October Revolution of 1917 was coup. In my opinion. It has the hallmarks of a coup. It was primarily a fight (an a short one) between soldiers. The article itself calls it a revolution, but then says "It took place through an armed insurrection in Petrograd", the armed component being initially and mostly (altho not entirely) soldiers. According to that article, the coup was provoked when "In the early morning of 24 October (O.S.; 6 November N.S.), a group of soldiers loyal to Kerensky's government marched on the printing house of the Bolshevik newspaper...", followed by "At 10 a.m., Bolshevik-aligned soldiers successfully retook the Rabochiy put printing house...". Soldiers, note, not civilians. In other words, at this point, it was was initiated by part of the army (under direct orders from Lenin's central committee, not spontaneously) standing against the government army.
Throughout the rest of the day, there were sporadic clashes "between Red Guard militias aligned with the Military-Revolutionary Committee and military units still loyal to the government". Whether these Red Guard militias were actual army units or semi-military civilian groups somewhat analoggous to the Proud Boys etc. except more organized, I don't know. They were's spontaneous groups of civilians.
Clashes. But the next day, "the Bolsheviks led their forces" against the government. How many of these were actual army units I don't know, but then a section of the Russian Fleet arrived (including marines), and these were definitely military units, acting under command, opposing the government. The Kronstadt sailors joined the coup (or revolutions), and "The Red Guards systematically captured major government facilities, key communication installations, and vantage points with little opposition. The Petrograd Garrison and most of the city's military units joined the insurrection against the Provisional Government." Still, as far as I can see, nothing involving the general populace. OTOH, "Railways and railway stations had been controlled by Soviet workers and soldiers for days [previously]"... civilian workers involved here.
Anyway, then "A final assault against the Winter Palace—against 3,000 cadets, officers, cossacks, and female soldiers—was not vigorously resisted.The Bolsheviks delayed the assault because they could not find functioning artillery. At 6:15 p.m., a large group of artillery cadets abandoned the palace, taking their artillery with them. At 8:00 p.m., 200 cossacks left the palace and returned to their barracks". (That is, some cadets and cossacks refused to fight for the government.)
Then, "As the night progressed, crowds of insurgents surrounded the palace, and many infiltrated it. At 9:45 p.m, the cruiser Aurora fired a blank shot from the harbor. "Insurgents" not soldiers, but sounds hauntingly familiar to the events of January 6 2022, which is considered a coup (arguable), and then you have a naval ship firing (one shot, but it was key). By early next morning, the government cabinet was captured. AFAIK the general populace of Petersburg did not want this even to occur. All this happened in two days (compare to the American Revolution and French Revolution, initiated by spontaneous civilian uprising and lasting years). (FWIW (not much), List of coups and coup attempts by country does include the October Revolution as a coup (we should at least get our stories straight), but then List of revolutions and rebellions includes it as a revolution/rebellion).
Of course the Bolsheviks called it a "revolution", because of course they would, and so what. Anyway, they key point is not what we think (it's a data point tho), but what important neutral sources say. So let's see. Herostratus ( talk) 18:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Since I can't edit this article, I ask that someone who can, adds the 1921 coup in Guatemala against Carlos Herrera.
/info/en/?search=Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Orellana#Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_against_Carlos_Herrera
It does not have its own article but it's mentioned within sections in articles of people involved. Magnús Hjálmarsson ( talk) 16:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of coups and coup attempts's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "NYT":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:17, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
No consensus have been reached on the many discussion pages about whether this is counted as a coup or not (though I think it is obvious if it is or not), therefore it should not be listed until a proper consensus is reached. 103.244.228.42 ( talk) 06:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)