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No consensus on 2021 American coup
No consensus have been reached on the many discussion pages about whether this is counted as a coup or not (though I think it is obvious if it is or not), therefore it should not be listed until a proper consensus is reached.
103.244.228.42 (
talk) 06:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You link a “COMMENTARY” article, it is literally someone’s personal opinion and also the Cato Institute is a libertarian think tank. libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics and still holds many of its views
2001:8004:4610:C2EC:8135:E8BA:53DF:BA9 (
talk) 16:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Here is a list of Sources that say the event was not a coup:
I beg of someone to change the Kyrgyzstan May 6th 2023 Coup Attempt to June 5th 2023.
This has been bugging me for weeks and honestly I thought someone would change it but it still says May 6th I have looked through all the Sources and none of them state that it had taken place on May 6th in fact this source:
that was provided specifically states that it was announced in a June 5th statement. I ask someone please change this and thank you.
IEXISTISWEAR (
talk) 23:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Decembrist Revolt in Russia, 1825
I think this should count as a coup d'etat, specifically a failed barracks coup, given that I have read most sources listed in the other Wiki on the subject (
Decembrist revolt) and it is literally called a 'failed coup' in the beginning of the article. Open for discussion, would like to talk about this.
-shadowm
Shadowmetallic (
talk) 19:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)reply
This has to be the first time in history that someone is accused of attempting to overthrow a government while being quoted as stating "we are the party of law and order" and publicly demanding his followers to go home.
PointingOutBias (
talk) 16:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
We tend to call that "being untruthful".
Zaathras (
talk) 21:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
It's not our call -- scholars of political violence list it as a coup. But it doesn't say that Trump was in on it.
Feoffer (
talk) 22:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Actually, if you see our extensivediscussions last year, no scholars of political violence list it as a coup. If you look at the citations of Jan 6 in this article, none are from coup scholars. That's why nobody last year could agree to making this article into a list based on criteria from scholars of political violence.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 20:47, 12 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Is there an explanation in the linked article why it is not seen as a coup, even though it is seen as one by some politicians and journalists? I found no explanation in this list, nor in the linked article. The latter is pretty large, possibly I missed it!
2003:EB:6F07:CF00:D37D:A4FC:E53C:E92C (
talk) 23:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
If you found no explanation in the linked article then either failed to read it, or failed to understand it.
Zaathras (
talk) 00:41, 22 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Your first link titled 'Global Instances of Coups from 1950 to 2010: A New Dataset." It does not include 2014. Your second link refers Wikipedia and the first link.
ManyAreasExpert (
talk) 18:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
First, please actually click on the P&T updated file ("
Dataset 2), as it continues to be updated thru 2023. Second, your characterization of the CDP dataset is disingenuous -- their references in the sourcebook always include at least one primary source, and for Ukraine they include three (WSJ, Telegraph, and CSM). A reference to WP and a previous dataset serves as a source aggregator, as you should expect it does with every such reference. We reviewed coup datasets extensively last year -- both are respected in their field, and are about the bounds of exclusivity and inclusivity for datasets aggregating post-WW2 coups.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 19:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
You did check the datasets I linked, right? Look for Ukraine, 2014 (the only one listed on either dataset). Everything refers to those. If my abbreviations or something else are confusing let me know.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 00:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Cline calls what happened in Ukraine a 'Popular Revolt' not a type of coup—
blindlynx 00:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
"The typology and operational definitions of the coup categories are provided below." [from CDP Codebook, which is presumably what you thought you were quoting.]
SamuelRiv (
talk) 00:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
we would need more robust sources than mentions in datasets to include it here....the cline codebook uses wide definition of 'coup', which makes sense given the kinda stuff this dataset is intend to be used for (i suspect the same goes for P&T) but typically the def they use for popular revolt (An irregular regime change driven by widespread popular dissatisfaction expressed through large-scale civil unrest. An event falls into this category if a large-scale popular rebellion overthrows existing leader, forces their resignations, or elites use irregular means to force leadership changes in order to conciliate the populace. It is not a popular revolt if elites overthrow incumbents they consider “soft” on dissent in order to facilitate a crackdown.) is not typically used for coups ... —
blindlynx 01:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Please review my previous comments, then look at P&T. I have addressed this. If you are interested in this topic, we went over this quite exhaustively and exhaustingly in discussions last year, which are linked in the section above.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 01:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
First note that I never said any text should be added or that language should be changed. All I said was that X is in Y and Z datasets. I'm not keen on adding content -- the article needs a complete rewrite per the
WP:LISTCRITERIA guideline.
That said, please actually explain how academic sources are not RS for the article in its current state, because that just seems totally bizarre. We've noted in this article that the definition of 'coup' is not fixed. These are widely-cited academic datasets that set particular definitions for 'coup' and make classifications according to primary sources. Are you seriously saying they are not RS when this article does not fix its own definition for a 'coup'?
SamuelRiv (
talk) 16:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
If no changes are proposed then there is no need to discuss.
ManyAreasExpert (
talk) 17:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
If none of us are keen on adding it let's leave it at that—
blindlynx 19:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of
History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all
list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This page has archives. Sections older than 120 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.
No consensus on 2021 American coup
No consensus have been reached on the many discussion pages about whether this is counted as a coup or not (though I think it is obvious if it is or not), therefore it should not be listed until a proper consensus is reached.
103.244.228.42 (
talk) 06:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You link a “COMMENTARY” article, it is literally someone’s personal opinion and also the Cato Institute is a libertarian think tank. libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics and still holds many of its views
2001:8004:4610:C2EC:8135:E8BA:53DF:BA9 (
talk) 16:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Here is a list of Sources that say the event was not a coup:
I beg of someone to change the Kyrgyzstan May 6th 2023 Coup Attempt to June 5th 2023.
This has been bugging me for weeks and honestly I thought someone would change it but it still says May 6th I have looked through all the Sources and none of them state that it had taken place on May 6th in fact this source:
that was provided specifically states that it was announced in a June 5th statement. I ask someone please change this and thank you.
IEXISTISWEAR (
talk) 23:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Decembrist Revolt in Russia, 1825
I think this should count as a coup d'etat, specifically a failed barracks coup, given that I have read most sources listed in the other Wiki on the subject (
Decembrist revolt) and it is literally called a 'failed coup' in the beginning of the article. Open for discussion, would like to talk about this.
-shadowm
Shadowmetallic (
talk) 19:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)reply
This has to be the first time in history that someone is accused of attempting to overthrow a government while being quoted as stating "we are the party of law and order" and publicly demanding his followers to go home.
PointingOutBias (
talk) 16:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
We tend to call that "being untruthful".
Zaathras (
talk) 21:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
It's not our call -- scholars of political violence list it as a coup. But it doesn't say that Trump was in on it.
Feoffer (
talk) 22:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Actually, if you see our extensivediscussions last year, no scholars of political violence list it as a coup. If you look at the citations of Jan 6 in this article, none are from coup scholars. That's why nobody last year could agree to making this article into a list based on criteria from scholars of political violence.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 20:47, 12 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Is there an explanation in the linked article why it is not seen as a coup, even though it is seen as one by some politicians and journalists? I found no explanation in this list, nor in the linked article. The latter is pretty large, possibly I missed it!
2003:EB:6F07:CF00:D37D:A4FC:E53C:E92C (
talk) 23:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)reply
If you found no explanation in the linked article then either failed to read it, or failed to understand it.
Zaathras (
talk) 00:41, 22 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Your first link titled 'Global Instances of Coups from 1950 to 2010: A New Dataset." It does not include 2014. Your second link refers Wikipedia and the first link.
ManyAreasExpert (
talk) 18:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
First, please actually click on the P&T updated file ("
Dataset 2), as it continues to be updated thru 2023. Second, your characterization of the CDP dataset is disingenuous -- their references in the sourcebook always include at least one primary source, and for Ukraine they include three (WSJ, Telegraph, and CSM). A reference to WP and a previous dataset serves as a source aggregator, as you should expect it does with every such reference. We reviewed coup datasets extensively last year -- both are respected in their field, and are about the bounds of exclusivity and inclusivity for datasets aggregating post-WW2 coups.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 19:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC)reply
You did check the datasets I linked, right? Look for Ukraine, 2014 (the only one listed on either dataset). Everything refers to those. If my abbreviations or something else are confusing let me know.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 00:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Cline calls what happened in Ukraine a 'Popular Revolt' not a type of coup—
blindlynx 00:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
"The typology and operational definitions of the coup categories are provided below." [from CDP Codebook, which is presumably what you thought you were quoting.]
SamuelRiv (
talk) 00:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
we would need more robust sources than mentions in datasets to include it here....the cline codebook uses wide definition of 'coup', which makes sense given the kinda stuff this dataset is intend to be used for (i suspect the same goes for P&T) but typically the def they use for popular revolt (An irregular regime change driven by widespread popular dissatisfaction expressed through large-scale civil unrest. An event falls into this category if a large-scale popular rebellion overthrows existing leader, forces their resignations, or elites use irregular means to force leadership changes in order to conciliate the populace. It is not a popular revolt if elites overthrow incumbents they consider “soft” on dissent in order to facilitate a crackdown.) is not typically used for coups ... —
blindlynx 01:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Please review my previous comments, then look at P&T. I have addressed this. If you are interested in this topic, we went over this quite exhaustively and exhaustingly in discussions last year, which are linked in the section above.
SamuelRiv (
talk) 01:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
First note that I never said any text should be added or that language should be changed. All I said was that X is in Y and Z datasets. I'm not keen on adding content -- the article needs a complete rewrite per the
WP:LISTCRITERIA guideline.
That said, please actually explain how academic sources are not RS for the article in its current state, because that just seems totally bizarre. We've noted in this article that the definition of 'coup' is not fixed. These are widely-cited academic datasets that set particular definitions for 'coup' and make classifications according to primary sources. Are you seriously saying they are not RS when this article does not fix its own definition for a 'coup'?
SamuelRiv (
talk) 16:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
If no changes are proposed then there is no need to discuss.
ManyAreasExpert (
talk) 17:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
If none of us are keen on adding it let's leave it at that—
blindlynx 19:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply