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Minds think alike, I guess. I started archiving last night and then came in and User: Wwoods had already moved it. Went ahead and kept mine, first from the time spent, second because a country-organized archive is much more useful than one split into several warring, jumbled screeds ( WP:REFACTOR). User: Wwoods left a number of items such as an old discussion of Romania and a current discussion of Macedonia on this page, but simply moved them to archive since they were both finished discussions (at least until Wiki's other Macedonian policies change, see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS). — LlywelynII 23:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Going through the archives, it looks like there are a few recurring themes that could do with mentioning. — LlywelynII 04:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I'll be pruning the page in the next day or two, but there has been an ongoing discussion for something like six years about the inclusion of non-national etymologies on this page. There is room for argument about historical nations such as England or Wales. There's very little for things like the Aland Islands.
User:Tridesch was quite rude, but on this point he wasn't wrong. Apart from the violation of WP:RELEVANCE, see the archive for the WP:CONSENSUS formed, e.g. the discussion of Baker Island. The very few arguments advocated in favor of the inclusion of regions (viz. the difficulty of finding the Canadian provinces' etymologies anywhere else) were vitiated by the creation of List of etymologies of country subdivision names. Please include subnational entities there; simply include the etymology on the area's own page; or begin a requested move to a different namespace such as list of geographical etymologies. — LlywelynII 23:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Tridesch sometimes went beyond the colorful and into the personal. Remember to comment on the content and theories, not the person. Personal attacks hurt the community and the work. Naturally, vandalism is vandalism, but for the most part assume WP:GOODFAITH. — LlywelynII 04:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
A lot of the attacks and arguments could be dealt with by citing reliable sources. If we don't know or the etymology is disputed, we can make a note of that; even in the case of "Russia", where the Soviet etymology is heavily discounted by objective scholarship outside the country, the alternate theory can, even should, be noted.
If you have no cites to include, include the {{ fact}} template or (better yet) simply mention it here on the talk page and ask for other editors to help out with sourcing your information. — LlywelynII 04:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
For example: Albania certainly goes back to Greek meaning "land of the Albanians". Their name may derive from a local endonym, an Illyrian tribe, the Latin for "white", a Proto-Indo-European root for "white", or another PIE word for "hill".
We should lead with "land of Albanians" or "unknown" and only then explain the different theories; we should not lead with our own pet theory ( WP:OWN). Even if one or two sources (and especially sources with known agendas) state their cases as if they had settled the issue, we should not list those findings as fact if significant reasonable disagreement still exists ( WP:NPOV). — LlywelynII 00:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Right now, we've got
but this article gives "Âtarepâta" and "keeper of the fire. Anyone have some more reliable sources about that variant than Livius? — LlywelynII 11:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Well, this is annoying.
Seem to have well-reasoned, informed information from non-REL sources. This site on African languages has this page about place names in South Africa. The native name for Pretoria is apparently quite similar to the Batswana, but there's no further information about whether they might be related or the British might have picked up the name. Further, even within the Setswana language, these guys think tshwana means the opposite of what Livingstone took it to be ("not the same"). There's a link to a Professor claiming tswana meant "black cow" in Setswana and was involved in rain ceremonies, but it's dead and the Setswana dictionary I can access only gives "to leave" as a homophone for tswana.
This poster on the Botswanan government forum suggests it's a diminutive of a Kalanga word for southerner (which is somehow pejorative, but why isn't explained.) Same guy here has a really interesting narrative of the Batswana's 19th century history as British-backed rebels against the Kalanga and this book does back the Kalanga calling them barwa, but doesn't go into detail or defend the diminutive angle.
So in both cases, not enough to publish. Any one got any better leads on this? or reasons why they're wrong? — LlywelynII 10:15, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
Fixed the previous situation where a well-meaning editor hadn't paid attention to his tags. Using {{flag|Myanmar}} produces "Burma", so we had text at #B Burma referring people to see Burma and #M Myanmar listed as a mis-filed Burma.
Anyway, there are very good arguments on both sides of this, but WP:LOCALCONSENSUS prescribes we shouldn't move our names around until Burma & co. move theirs, so if you feel strongly on the topic, let yourself be heard over there ( WT:TITLE seems another popular spot, but honestly, Burma's probably the better go here). — LlywelynII 12:14, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
User Kauffner restored previously removed text
in place of correct and sourced
First, there was no reason given to remove the sourced Yelang etymology.
Second, it was inappropriate to leave the GeoWade source as though it supported the restored text, which it does not.
Third, Liu is in fact a source, but he is also materially incorrect. Qin state existed as early as the 8th century BC, and there is no Indian source invoking the name China predating the 4th or 5th century BC (see Chinas). China in the Mahābhārata (citing no sources) links China with Indian texts claimed to predate "the first millennium BC", but as the actual Mahabharata page explains there are no passages thought to predate even 400 BC and the actual text wasn't finalized until around AD 400. Until some new archive is discovered to change these facts, the text and source depreciating a possible Qin origin should be removed. — LlywelynII 08:49, 21 Se ptember 2011 (UTC)
Inasmuch as this is not now and never has been a country, doesn't go here but at list of etymologies of country subdivision names, under China or the UK. Ditto Macao ( Portugal). — LlywelynII 20:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The entry cites a Roman historian named "Yalainous" and birth and death dates (23-79 AD). The only problem is that there's never been a Roman historian by that name -- it doesn't even look like a Roman name (certainly Latin didn't use the letter Y in that way). A little Google searching on the name only comes up with references to the name of Oman, many of which appear to be derived from this article. The reference given is to an Arabic-language book, so it's possible that the name has been transcribed from Latin into Arabic and then back again into Latin letters, but I can't figure out who it might be. Any guesses? -- Jfruh ( talk) 19:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
This section has been rewritten so that the focus is disproportionately on China, as if Vietnamese had nothing to do with the name of their own country. If axes, tribes in the northeast, and the Yue Kingdom were written using the same Chinese character, perhaps it is because the words for these things sounded similar. The Yue Kingdom spoke a non-Sinitic language, so the name of the kingdom could not have been derived from any Chinese word. Combining various lines of speculation into a unified of theory of origin is a WP:SYNTHESIS. The name "Vietnam" originated with poet Nguyen Binh Khiem in the 16th century, was popular for several hundred years, and then disappeared. It was revived in modern times by Phan Boi Chau, the VNQDD, and the Yen Bai mutiny. But the way the section is written now, some Chinese emperor gets the credit. Moreover, this section should use Vietnamese spellings, Bach Viet and Nam Viet as opposed to Baiyue and Nanyue. That's the way scholars who write about Vietnam do it. Kauffner ( talk) 12:08, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Can someone provide a reliable source for theses sections?:
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Hello, Wikipedia community & experts:
Would anyone please explain to me HOW COME that (in above-referenced section-under entry of: Austria), it offers the following explanation as per country's etymology: "Eastern March" whereas, Wikitionary offers the explanation of: Eastern Realm, as to the meaning of this country's name...!
I would also like to suggest investigation of the fact that the word: Reich (as in Österreich-the German name of the country of Austria) deriving from &/or being associated with the word: Rich, in German (as in the name of other world countries/areas-such as: Costa Rica=The Rich Coast & Puerto Rico-The Rich Port, in Spanish)-which will only leave the conundrum of what the meaning of the 1st part (Öster) of this country's name is & how it corresponds/relates (in terms of meaning) to the last part...! AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
As per my search (&, conforming/in accordance with other country entries), you are missing the Icelandic-language endonym for the name of the country (ˈistlant]-as per: /info/en/?search=Iceland with the meaning of: the Land of Ice! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AK63 ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
Aren't the above-named/referenced countries a mixture of their indigenous population (or prevalent/greatest-in-number representative clan/tribe) & the name of the continent: Asia??? AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:35, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
Some would argue that the name of the country was given to it by its MOORISH conquerors-as, in Arabic, the word: برتقال=Burtugal means: an orange (possibly denoting/representing to them the vast orange crops in Portugal's orchards?!?). AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:04, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
the eponymic for the Arab Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia [المملكة العربية السعودية=Al Mamlakah Al Arabiyah A-SaUdiyyah], or, as more commonlu/populatly known in colloquial terms as: [Saudia=Saudiyah], is missing! AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:22, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
The missing part is the Turkish eponymic spelling of the country: Türkiye AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:32, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
The country's eponymic spelling: España [espanya] is missing AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to point out that Česko (the Czech name of Czechia) is much more common than described in the article. According to the Czech National Corpus, it is a bit more common than the term ‘Česká republika’. [4] [5] The Czech Language Institute says it has caught on. [6] -- Martin Tauchman ( talk) 15:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
As the translation of جزر القمر is "Islands of the moon" and not "moons," I suggest changing the first word of the Comoros entry to "Moon." Was the s added as a plural marker when borrowed by French? Additionally, there's an inconsistency between the transcription and script given. Though "islands" can be written in Arabic as either Jazā'ir (جَزَائِر) or Juzur (جُزُر), the official name of the country in Arabic uses the latter. This part is correctly given in the article, but the transcription is inconsistent: Jazā'ir (جُزُر) is given when it should be Juzur (جُزُر)
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Minds think alike, I guess. I started archiving last night and then came in and User: Wwoods had already moved it. Went ahead and kept mine, first from the time spent, second because a country-organized archive is much more useful than one split into several warring, jumbled screeds ( WP:REFACTOR). User: Wwoods left a number of items such as an old discussion of Romania and a current discussion of Macedonia on this page, but simply moved them to archive since they were both finished discussions (at least until Wiki's other Macedonian policies change, see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS). — LlywelynII 23:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Going through the archives, it looks like there are a few recurring themes that could do with mentioning. — LlywelynII 04:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
I'll be pruning the page in the next day or two, but there has been an ongoing discussion for something like six years about the inclusion of non-national etymologies on this page. There is room for argument about historical nations such as England or Wales. There's very little for things like the Aland Islands.
User:Tridesch was quite rude, but on this point he wasn't wrong. Apart from the violation of WP:RELEVANCE, see the archive for the WP:CONSENSUS formed, e.g. the discussion of Baker Island. The very few arguments advocated in favor of the inclusion of regions (viz. the difficulty of finding the Canadian provinces' etymologies anywhere else) were vitiated by the creation of List of etymologies of country subdivision names. Please include subnational entities there; simply include the etymology on the area's own page; or begin a requested move to a different namespace such as list of geographical etymologies. — LlywelynII 23:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Tridesch sometimes went beyond the colorful and into the personal. Remember to comment on the content and theories, not the person. Personal attacks hurt the community and the work. Naturally, vandalism is vandalism, but for the most part assume WP:GOODFAITH. — LlywelynII 04:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
A lot of the attacks and arguments could be dealt with by citing reliable sources. If we don't know or the etymology is disputed, we can make a note of that; even in the case of "Russia", where the Soviet etymology is heavily discounted by objective scholarship outside the country, the alternate theory can, even should, be noted.
If you have no cites to include, include the {{ fact}} template or (better yet) simply mention it here on the talk page and ask for other editors to help out with sourcing your information. — LlywelynII 04:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
For example: Albania certainly goes back to Greek meaning "land of the Albanians". Their name may derive from a local endonym, an Illyrian tribe, the Latin for "white", a Proto-Indo-European root for "white", or another PIE word for "hill".
We should lead with "land of Albanians" or "unknown" and only then explain the different theories; we should not lead with our own pet theory ( WP:OWN). Even if one or two sources (and especially sources with known agendas) state their cases as if they had settled the issue, we should not list those findings as fact if significant reasonable disagreement still exists ( WP:NPOV). — LlywelynII 00:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Right now, we've got
but this article gives "Âtarepâta" and "keeper of the fire. Anyone have some more reliable sources about that variant than Livius? — LlywelynII 11:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Well, this is annoying.
Seem to have well-reasoned, informed information from non-REL sources. This site on African languages has this page about place names in South Africa. The native name for Pretoria is apparently quite similar to the Batswana, but there's no further information about whether they might be related or the British might have picked up the name. Further, even within the Setswana language, these guys think tshwana means the opposite of what Livingstone took it to be ("not the same"). There's a link to a Professor claiming tswana meant "black cow" in Setswana and was involved in rain ceremonies, but it's dead and the Setswana dictionary I can access only gives "to leave" as a homophone for tswana.
This poster on the Botswanan government forum suggests it's a diminutive of a Kalanga word for southerner (which is somehow pejorative, but why isn't explained.) Same guy here has a really interesting narrative of the Batswana's 19th century history as British-backed rebels against the Kalanga and this book does back the Kalanga calling them barwa, but doesn't go into detail or defend the diminutive angle.
So in both cases, not enough to publish. Any one got any better leads on this? or reasons why they're wrong? — LlywelynII 10:15, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
Fixed the previous situation where a well-meaning editor hadn't paid attention to his tags. Using {{flag|Myanmar}} produces "Burma", so we had text at #B Burma referring people to see Burma and #M Myanmar listed as a mis-filed Burma.
Anyway, there are very good arguments on both sides of this, but WP:LOCALCONSENSUS prescribes we shouldn't move our names around until Burma & co. move theirs, so if you feel strongly on the topic, let yourself be heard over there ( WT:TITLE seems another popular spot, but honestly, Burma's probably the better go here). — LlywelynII 12:14, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
User Kauffner restored previously removed text
in place of correct and sourced
First, there was no reason given to remove the sourced Yelang etymology.
Second, it was inappropriate to leave the GeoWade source as though it supported the restored text, which it does not.
Third, Liu is in fact a source, but he is also materially incorrect. Qin state existed as early as the 8th century BC, and there is no Indian source invoking the name China predating the 4th or 5th century BC (see Chinas). China in the Mahābhārata (citing no sources) links China with Indian texts claimed to predate "the first millennium BC", but as the actual Mahabharata page explains there are no passages thought to predate even 400 BC and the actual text wasn't finalized until around AD 400. Until some new archive is discovered to change these facts, the text and source depreciating a possible Qin origin should be removed. — LlywelynII 08:49, 21 Se ptember 2011 (UTC)
Inasmuch as this is not now and never has been a country, doesn't go here but at list of etymologies of country subdivision names, under China or the UK. Ditto Macao ( Portugal). — LlywelynII 20:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The entry cites a Roman historian named "Yalainous" and birth and death dates (23-79 AD). The only problem is that there's never been a Roman historian by that name -- it doesn't even look like a Roman name (certainly Latin didn't use the letter Y in that way). A little Google searching on the name only comes up with references to the name of Oman, many of which appear to be derived from this article. The reference given is to an Arabic-language book, so it's possible that the name has been transcribed from Latin into Arabic and then back again into Latin letters, but I can't figure out who it might be. Any guesses? -- Jfruh ( talk) 19:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
This section has been rewritten so that the focus is disproportionately on China, as if Vietnamese had nothing to do with the name of their own country. If axes, tribes in the northeast, and the Yue Kingdom were written using the same Chinese character, perhaps it is because the words for these things sounded similar. The Yue Kingdom spoke a non-Sinitic language, so the name of the kingdom could not have been derived from any Chinese word. Combining various lines of speculation into a unified of theory of origin is a WP:SYNTHESIS. The name "Vietnam" originated with poet Nguyen Binh Khiem in the 16th century, was popular for several hundred years, and then disappeared. It was revived in modern times by Phan Boi Chau, the VNQDD, and the Yen Bai mutiny. But the way the section is written now, some Chinese emperor gets the credit. Moreover, this section should use Vietnamese spellings, Bach Viet and Nam Viet as opposed to Baiyue and Nanyue. That's the way scholars who write about Vietnam do it. Kauffner ( talk) 12:08, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Can someone provide a reliable source for theses sections?:
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Hello, Wikipedia community & experts:
Would anyone please explain to me HOW COME that (in above-referenced section-under entry of: Austria), it offers the following explanation as per country's etymology: "Eastern March" whereas, Wikitionary offers the explanation of: Eastern Realm, as to the meaning of this country's name...!
I would also like to suggest investigation of the fact that the word: Reich (as in Österreich-the German name of the country of Austria) deriving from &/or being associated with the word: Rich, in German (as in the name of other world countries/areas-such as: Costa Rica=The Rich Coast & Puerto Rico-The Rich Port, in Spanish)-which will only leave the conundrum of what the meaning of the 1st part (Öster) of this country's name is & how it corresponds/relates (in terms of meaning) to the last part...! AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
As per my search (&, conforming/in accordance with other country entries), you are missing the Icelandic-language endonym for the name of the country (ˈistlant]-as per: /info/en/?search=Iceland with the meaning of: the Land of Ice! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AK63 ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
Aren't the above-named/referenced countries a mixture of their indigenous population (or prevalent/greatest-in-number representative clan/tribe) & the name of the continent: Asia??? AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:35, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
Some would argue that the name of the country was given to it by its MOORISH conquerors-as, in Arabic, the word: برتقال=Burtugal means: an orange (possibly denoting/representing to them the vast orange crops in Portugal's orchards?!?). AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:04, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
the eponymic for the Arab Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia [المملكة العربية السعودية=Al Mamlakah Al Arabiyah A-SaUdiyyah], or, as more commonlu/populatly known in colloquial terms as: [Saudia=Saudiyah], is missing! AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:22, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
The missing part is the Turkish eponymic spelling of the country: Türkiye AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:32, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello,
The country's eponymic spelling: España [espanya] is missing AK63 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
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I would like to point out that Česko (the Czech name of Czechia) is much more common than described in the article. According to the Czech National Corpus, it is a bit more common than the term ‘Česká republika’. [4] [5] The Czech Language Institute says it has caught on. [6] -- Martin Tauchman ( talk) 15:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
As the translation of جزر القمر is "Islands of the moon" and not "moons," I suggest changing the first word of the Comoros entry to "Moon." Was the s added as a plural marker when borrowed by French? Additionally, there's an inconsistency between the transcription and script given. Though "islands" can be written in Arabic as either Jazā'ir (جَزَائِر) or Juzur (جُزُر), the official name of the country in Arabic uses the latter. This part is correctly given in the article, but the transcription is inconsistent: Jazā'ir (جُزُر) is given when it should be Juzur (جُزُر)