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I don't think it's correct to say that the United Kingdom's current form of government was formed in 1922, with the independence of (most of the island of) Ireland. The government before and after 1922 was functionally the same, with the same constitution, practices, etc, just with a large chunk of territory lost. The Acts of Union between Scotland and England(+Wales) was what actually formed the current system of government. An argument could be made that the current form of government relies on a Prime Minister, so then the current form of government would be 1721.
The UK's situation is unclear, but regardless I don't think picking 1922 as the date of the current form of government makes much sense 143.167.240.144 ( talk) 02:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
I have noticed that for countries of ancient nations in this list the "date of acquisition of sovereignty" is the date of establishment of the earliest kingdoms even if that happened thousands of years ago, even if they are of a different nation and culture, and even if that sovereignty was disrupted since that time. For example: Iran is given the date 2600 BC, the time of the establishment of the Elamite kingdom in that area, even though the Elamites are a different nation from the Persians living there now (completely different language). India is given the date 2500 BC - the date of the Indus Valley Civilization, though no one knows if it had any cultural or genetic connection to modern-day Indians, and though it had lost its sovereignty several times in the interim period. Most recently to the British for 100 years. Japan got the date 660 BC although is mostly considered legendary. And there are more examples like this in the list. By the same logic, the "date of acquisition of sovereignty" of Israel should be set at the establishment of the first Jewish kingdoms in the holy land which was about 930 BC (according to latest estimates). This kingdoms were called Israel and Judea. Their historicity is undisputed. And their connection to modern Israel is obvious as well - same languages, same name, same religion, genetic descent etc. Vegan416 ( talk) 12:08, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Following the @ Wtmitchell comment above starting with the words "I believe that this article is unclear and confusing", and my discussion with @ Selfstudier about "Israel's first acquisition of sovereignty", I want to point a major inconsistency in this article that needs to be resolved.
There is an inconsistency in the way ancient nations/states are treated in this article, with no apparent justification whatsoever.
Solving this inconsistency can go in one of two ways:
Your opinions? Vegan416 ( talk) 13:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Much of what i'm going to say has been raised already, so I wanted to make this thread to summarise the changes and see if there were any objections. Proposed changes:
1. Either remove 'Date of acquisition of sovereignty' (which i think @ Vegan416 had said they would do). Or I can add text to clarify that it's explicitly referring to the creation of the current version of that state and update the dates accordingly. I'm a fan of the latter here, since the chart seems to capture the important bits (e.g. UK sovereignty 1707, date of current government = 1922)
This is for two reasons:
- First, the top of the article clearly states: "This list includes the 195 states which are currently member states of the United Nations or non-member observer states with the United Nations General Assembly. This does not include extinct states, but does include several states with limited recognition." " Extinct States" links to an article that has every non-current state, from ancient Egypt through to USSR. It's redundant and unnecessary to refer to the the '
- Second, it's a contentious/propaganda tool (is modern Cambodia closely tied to the Khmer empire listed? Is an ancient Israel connected to a modern one? Vegan mentioned language but that was resurrected in the 19th century. Why is Egypt only 1922, even though Coptic is still used in some communities? etc, etc)
-Third, it's misleading. The article is about modern nation-states, and it's absurd for a user to see that Israel has been around since 1300bce while Egypt appears to only exist from 1922 onward.
2. Rename article to 'List of (modern, current, something) sovereign states by date of formation'
This is to make it more explicit that this article is a list of current nation-states and not meant as a historical look 178.25.72.42 ( talk) 23:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of sovereign states by date of formation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 14 days |
|
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
I don't think it's correct to say that the United Kingdom's current form of government was formed in 1922, with the independence of (most of the island of) Ireland. The government before and after 1922 was functionally the same, with the same constitution, practices, etc, just with a large chunk of territory lost. The Acts of Union between Scotland and England(+Wales) was what actually formed the current system of government. An argument could be made that the current form of government relies on a Prime Minister, so then the current form of government would be 1721.
The UK's situation is unclear, but regardless I don't think picking 1922 as the date of the current form of government makes much sense 143.167.240.144 ( talk) 02:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
I have noticed that for countries of ancient nations in this list the "date of acquisition of sovereignty" is the date of establishment of the earliest kingdoms even if that happened thousands of years ago, even if they are of a different nation and culture, and even if that sovereignty was disrupted since that time. For example: Iran is given the date 2600 BC, the time of the establishment of the Elamite kingdom in that area, even though the Elamites are a different nation from the Persians living there now (completely different language). India is given the date 2500 BC - the date of the Indus Valley Civilization, though no one knows if it had any cultural or genetic connection to modern-day Indians, and though it had lost its sovereignty several times in the interim period. Most recently to the British for 100 years. Japan got the date 660 BC although is mostly considered legendary. And there are more examples like this in the list. By the same logic, the "date of acquisition of sovereignty" of Israel should be set at the establishment of the first Jewish kingdoms in the holy land which was about 930 BC (according to latest estimates). This kingdoms were called Israel and Judea. Their historicity is undisputed. And their connection to modern Israel is obvious as well - same languages, same name, same religion, genetic descent etc. Vegan416 ( talk) 12:08, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Following the @ Wtmitchell comment above starting with the words "I believe that this article is unclear and confusing", and my discussion with @ Selfstudier about "Israel's first acquisition of sovereignty", I want to point a major inconsistency in this article that needs to be resolved.
There is an inconsistency in the way ancient nations/states are treated in this article, with no apparent justification whatsoever.
Solving this inconsistency can go in one of two ways:
Your opinions? Vegan416 ( talk) 13:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Much of what i'm going to say has been raised already, so I wanted to make this thread to summarise the changes and see if there were any objections. Proposed changes:
1. Either remove 'Date of acquisition of sovereignty' (which i think @ Vegan416 had said they would do). Or I can add text to clarify that it's explicitly referring to the creation of the current version of that state and update the dates accordingly. I'm a fan of the latter here, since the chart seems to capture the important bits (e.g. UK sovereignty 1707, date of current government = 1922)
This is for two reasons:
- First, the top of the article clearly states: "This list includes the 195 states which are currently member states of the United Nations or non-member observer states with the United Nations General Assembly. This does not include extinct states, but does include several states with limited recognition." " Extinct States" links to an article that has every non-current state, from ancient Egypt through to USSR. It's redundant and unnecessary to refer to the the '
- Second, it's a contentious/propaganda tool (is modern Cambodia closely tied to the Khmer empire listed? Is an ancient Israel connected to a modern one? Vegan mentioned language but that was resurrected in the 19th century. Why is Egypt only 1922, even though Coptic is still used in some communities? etc, etc)
-Third, it's misleading. The article is about modern nation-states, and it's absurd for a user to see that Israel has been around since 1300bce while Egypt appears to only exist from 1922 onward.
2. Rename article to 'List of (modern, current, something) sovereign states by date of formation'
This is to make it more explicit that this article is a list of current nation-states and not meant as a historical look 178.25.72.42 ( talk) 23:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)