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It seems to me that it's about time this article became a {{ disambig}} point for the related articles, perhaps also RSTA. Thoughts? ... aa: talk 16:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Some clean-up & merger seems to be required between this theme of acronyms. A simple merger will likely be inadequate. I propose discussion occur here. I am aware that these acronyms are used in US, UK, and Canadian militaries (and I assume within other NATO & ABCA militaries). However, the different militaries apply them differently and individual doctrines dictate if one will emphasize C3ISR or C4ISTAR, and if one will call it RISTA or ISTAR. -- MCG 03 Sept 06
I don't think so. RSTA needs to be its own article due to the large size and scope of it: RSTA units encompass tens of thousands of soldiers in the US Army, and it's a fundamental doctrine in modern maneuver combat. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 22:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Surveillance and Target Acquisition is a term that can be applied to a number of similar military units and roles as follows:
* The Honourable Artillery Company (STA Patrol Regiment, Territorial Army) * Reconnaissance, Surveillance, and Target Acquisition (US Army) * STA Sniper (USMC) * Surveillance, Target Acquisition, Night Observation and Counter-surveillance Centre, Royal School of Artillery * 5 Regiment Royal Artillery (Surveillance and Target Acquisition) * 32 Regiment Royal Artillery (Surveillance and Target Acquisition – Unmanned Air Vehicles) * 204 (Tyneside Scottish) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) (Surveillance and Target Acquisition) * 269 (West Riding) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) (Surveillance and Target Acquisition)
5 of the 8 subjects that STA can refer to are ACTUAL UNITS! 1 of the 8 is an MOS in the USMC, a type of JOB. One of the 8 is a reference to a training school. And one of the 8 is reference to a type of squadron in the US Army. None of these have ANYTHING to do with C4ISTAR, which the page itself says refers to various informations based systems. Heres a hint: informations based systems do NOT equate to a named military squadron, a military MOS, a military squadron type, nor a military training center. Therefore there is no need for a merge with STA.
So we've now established beyond any reasonable doubt there is no need for a merge with STA. We can then extrapolate that there is no need for a merge with RSTA because RSTA is simply the US Army version of STA. Plus, there's support above from Avriette as well as myself that RSTA is definitively large enough for its own article.
So now we've established RSTA and STA are out. What you do with ISTAR and C4ISTAR is your business: those probably should be merged. But STA and RSTA refer to completely different things than ISTAR and C4ISTAR do.
So, once again, I'll be removing all references to RSTA and STA from the merge debate. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 00:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
1.Create an ISTAR Category - I'm ok with this. 2. add c4istar as a "see also" wikilink in each of the ISTAR and C4I articles? - I'm ok with this 3. Group the articles into a "group 1" and "group 2" subset. Have all group 1 articles wikilink to each other in "See also". Have all group 2 articles wikilink to each other in "see also" - I'm ok with this 4. write into ISTAR your army's definition of ISTAR.- I'm ok with this
Please feel free to add more to my 4 steps? ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 03:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I really dislike the idea of any unit such as STA or RSTA that is actively identified by such title (i.e. 3/124th RSTA, or Marine 1st Reconnaissance Battalion STA platoon) to be redirected in any way. MCG has implied that there are units listed as ISTAR units the same way. Those need their own page. A prime example will be for the USMC: STA Sniper. I suppose we could take the DOCTRINAL aspects of STA/RSTA etc., copy them out of their own articles, put them all into one article: C4ISTAR. C4ISTAR would start with a disambiguation in the first paragraph to link to STA, RSTA and ISTAR (as they currently exist) then the information that was copied out of the STA/RSTA doctrine sections would be added into C4ISTAR. Thus, STA/RSTA etc. do not LOSE any information, but C4ISTAR gains information.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
06:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to work with you here and be fluid, giving on somethings, but I have some things I'd like you to be fluid on, and that is the RSTA page name, and the unit-related content. We're both mature individuals, and I'm glad we've been having this debate, but we shouldn't lose site that the end goal is to find a compromise we're both happy with: Debating eternally gets us nowhere and improves nothing. Lets find a solution? ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 01:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the 2nd one. Sounds like an essay. The first and 3rd ones are ok, but I'm not sure which one Il ike better. I'm inclined to go with the 3rd based on typical naming conventions. RSTA (U.S. Army) sound good? (make sure you get the capitalization and punctuation right.) ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 18:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to say, RSTA is very much a US term. It is virtually never heard in the UK. C4ISTAR is certainly a more recognised term and the entry here really doesn't do it justice. If anything I would suggest that the other more limited terms are disappearing and C4ISTAR is migrating towards being a key part of the network centric paradigm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.129.140 ( talk) 11:07, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
Would a similar approach work for STA? It could be Artillery STA, Artillery Surveillance and Target Acquisition, Surveillance and Target Acquisition (Artillery), or something along these lines. -- MCG 00:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I like Artillery STA. I still think to follow style, we should have STA (USMC), as a disambig page: Links to STA Sniper, RSTA US Army, and ISTAR. Oh and to the Artillery STA's as well.. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 12:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Here is what I've done on the old page: Surveillance and Target Acquisition -- MCG 20:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
There's not enough people editing these articles as is, and the comments you reference are expert opinion, not ownership. Where's the good faith Avriette? Funny how you pop in right after I call you out on something on your talk page, and say that I'm being subjective, right after we come to a compromise agreement that amicably solved our dispute ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 21:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
No, actually what I'm going to do is ignore you, and ignore your baiting attempts.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
20:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Can we change C4ISR to a disambiguation page: For the journal publication "C4ISR" you mention in this article, it could either redirect to something else, or have a text entry, and for the concept of C4ISR, it would reference you to here, like it currently does. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 07:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Which of these are actually widely used in military training or theory? It seems to me that C3I is a real abstraction of a military commander's problem. But "computers" are just a tool used in C3I (it's not like we had C2R "command, control and runners" replaced by C3IR "command, control, communications and radios"). Surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance are just ways of acquiring intelligence, no?
The United States Coast Guard is not mentioned here --> on purpose? Scriberius 19:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
In the wise words of ED: This article is crap. You can help by deleting it. Kevin ( talk) 04:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't this article be best served by creating a list of C(x) numbers - either as a seperate topic or as part of the Command and control (military) page that already exists and moving any other information into the ISTAR article? Jellyfish dave ( talk) 14:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It seems to me that it's about time this article became a {{ disambig}} point for the related articles, perhaps also RSTA. Thoughts? ... aa: talk 16:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Some clean-up & merger seems to be required between this theme of acronyms. A simple merger will likely be inadequate. I propose discussion occur here. I am aware that these acronyms are used in US, UK, and Canadian militaries (and I assume within other NATO & ABCA militaries). However, the different militaries apply them differently and individual doctrines dictate if one will emphasize C3ISR or C4ISTAR, and if one will call it RISTA or ISTAR. -- MCG 03 Sept 06
I don't think so. RSTA needs to be its own article due to the large size and scope of it: RSTA units encompass tens of thousands of soldiers in the US Army, and it's a fundamental doctrine in modern maneuver combat. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 22:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Surveillance and Target Acquisition is a term that can be applied to a number of similar military units and roles as follows:
* The Honourable Artillery Company (STA Patrol Regiment, Territorial Army) * Reconnaissance, Surveillance, and Target Acquisition (US Army) * STA Sniper (USMC) * Surveillance, Target Acquisition, Night Observation and Counter-surveillance Centre, Royal School of Artillery * 5 Regiment Royal Artillery (Surveillance and Target Acquisition) * 32 Regiment Royal Artillery (Surveillance and Target Acquisition – Unmanned Air Vehicles) * 204 (Tyneside Scottish) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) (Surveillance and Target Acquisition) * 269 (West Riding) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) (Surveillance and Target Acquisition)
5 of the 8 subjects that STA can refer to are ACTUAL UNITS! 1 of the 8 is an MOS in the USMC, a type of JOB. One of the 8 is a reference to a training school. And one of the 8 is reference to a type of squadron in the US Army. None of these have ANYTHING to do with C4ISTAR, which the page itself says refers to various informations based systems. Heres a hint: informations based systems do NOT equate to a named military squadron, a military MOS, a military squadron type, nor a military training center. Therefore there is no need for a merge with STA.
So we've now established beyond any reasonable doubt there is no need for a merge with STA. We can then extrapolate that there is no need for a merge with RSTA because RSTA is simply the US Army version of STA. Plus, there's support above from Avriette as well as myself that RSTA is definitively large enough for its own article.
So now we've established RSTA and STA are out. What you do with ISTAR and C4ISTAR is your business: those probably should be merged. But STA and RSTA refer to completely different things than ISTAR and C4ISTAR do.
So, once again, I'll be removing all references to RSTA and STA from the merge debate. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 00:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
1.Create an ISTAR Category - I'm ok with this. 2. add c4istar as a "see also" wikilink in each of the ISTAR and C4I articles? - I'm ok with this 3. Group the articles into a "group 1" and "group 2" subset. Have all group 1 articles wikilink to each other in "See also". Have all group 2 articles wikilink to each other in "see also" - I'm ok with this 4. write into ISTAR your army's definition of ISTAR.- I'm ok with this
Please feel free to add more to my 4 steps? ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 03:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I really dislike the idea of any unit such as STA or RSTA that is actively identified by such title (i.e. 3/124th RSTA, or Marine 1st Reconnaissance Battalion STA platoon) to be redirected in any way. MCG has implied that there are units listed as ISTAR units the same way. Those need their own page. A prime example will be for the USMC: STA Sniper. I suppose we could take the DOCTRINAL aspects of STA/RSTA etc., copy them out of their own articles, put them all into one article: C4ISTAR. C4ISTAR would start with a disambiguation in the first paragraph to link to STA, RSTA and ISTAR (as they currently exist) then the information that was copied out of the STA/RSTA doctrine sections would be added into C4ISTAR. Thus, STA/RSTA etc. do not LOSE any information, but C4ISTAR gains information.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
06:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to work with you here and be fluid, giving on somethings, but I have some things I'd like you to be fluid on, and that is the RSTA page name, and the unit-related content. We're both mature individuals, and I'm glad we've been having this debate, but we shouldn't lose site that the end goal is to find a compromise we're both happy with: Debating eternally gets us nowhere and improves nothing. Lets find a solution? ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 01:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the 2nd one. Sounds like an essay. The first and 3rd ones are ok, but I'm not sure which one Il ike better. I'm inclined to go with the 3rd based on typical naming conventions. RSTA (U.S. Army) sound good? (make sure you get the capitalization and punctuation right.) ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 18:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Just to say, RSTA is very much a US term. It is virtually never heard in the UK. C4ISTAR is certainly a more recognised term and the entry here really doesn't do it justice. If anything I would suggest that the other more limited terms are disappearing and C4ISTAR is migrating towards being a key part of the network centric paradigm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.129.140 ( talk) 11:07, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
Would a similar approach work for STA? It could be Artillery STA, Artillery Surveillance and Target Acquisition, Surveillance and Target Acquisition (Artillery), or something along these lines. -- MCG 00:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I like Artillery STA. I still think to follow style, we should have STA (USMC), as a disambig page: Links to STA Sniper, RSTA US Army, and ISTAR. Oh and to the Artillery STA's as well.. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 12:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Here is what I've done on the old page: Surveillance and Target Acquisition -- MCG 20:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
There's not enough people editing these articles as is, and the comments you reference are expert opinion, not ownership. Where's the good faith Avriette? Funny how you pop in right after I call you out on something on your talk page, and say that I'm being subjective, right after we come to a compromise agreement that amicably solved our dispute ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 21:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
No, actually what I'm going to do is ignore you, and ignore your baiting attempts.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
20:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Can we change C4ISR to a disambiguation page: For the journal publication "C4ISR" you mention in this article, it could either redirect to something else, or have a text entry, and for the concept of C4ISR, it would reference you to here, like it currently does. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 07:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Which of these are actually widely used in military training or theory? It seems to me that C3I is a real abstraction of a military commander's problem. But "computers" are just a tool used in C3I (it's not like we had C2R "command, control and runners" replaced by C3IR "command, control, communications and radios"). Surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance are just ways of acquiring intelligence, no?
The United States Coast Guard is not mentioned here --> on purpose? Scriberius 19:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
In the wise words of ED: This article is crap. You can help by deleting it. Kevin ( talk) 04:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't this article be best served by creating a list of C(x) numbers - either as a seperate topic or as part of the Command and control (military) page that already exists and moving any other information into the ISTAR article? Jellyfish dave ( talk) 14:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)