![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Following the publication of the "REPORT ON THE CURRENT STATUS OF UNITED NATIONS ROMANIZATION SYSTEMS FOR GEOGRAPHICAL NAMES" compiled by the UNGEGN Working Group on Romanization Systems - Version 3.0a, May 2008, the original United Nations recommended system (approved in 1977 and based on the official system (1957) proposed by the Academy of the Hebrew Language and used by the Survey of Israel) and following increasing public pressure over the years asking the Academy to change the transliteration rules, make them more simple and adapted to everyday use, after much deliberation, the system was amended in 2007, on the basis of a decision by the Academy of the Hebrew Language taken in November, 2006 the new rules have been ratified. So "ק" is now "k" and "ו" is now "v". For example, "Petah Tiqwa" should be "Petah Tikva". Barmispain ( talk) 13:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC). See link [1]
A serious extension, as well as some careful spell checking, are in order. ( Elzamam, 25/05/03)
I'm converting the text form of the list to tabular form, so that it will be easier for me to add "Gazeteer" equivalents of the cities' names. Also, this will make it more obvious where Arabic equivalents are missing, so that they can be filled in. I've already done the top two regions (Northern & Haifa), will churn this out as my insomnia dictates ;) I'm using [ Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names] as a source for Gazeteers' Forms; all of the "common" forms are listed there also, in fact many common forms appear! Suggestions are requested for other sources... -- D'n 01:36 22-November 2005 (UTC)
OK, damage restored, and all the tabling is done. What do people think about adding a 5th column, "Ethnicity"? Most cities would be "Jewish"; while Taybe and Qalansawe (for instance) would be Arab; Rahat Bedouin; and Jerusalem and Lod would be Mixed. D'n 05:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Check nl.wikipedia for later developements in Israeli local state. There 71 cities now (up from 70), after two were added, and two were combined (another one was combined with a local council). I have no clue who wrote the Dutch article ;-) gidonb 09:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Note, however, that the German Wikipedia has other information. It claims Elad and Mevasseret are cities. gidonb 09:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The list includes Ramallah!! which is not a city in israel (Ramla is), ramallah is a city in the west bank! am i missing something?-- Mayz 01:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Added Arabic names of Tira, Yafa, Eylat, Karmel.. (eom). 19:18, 28 January 2006 User:70.225.174.161 IP and timestamp added by gidonb
I think the State of Israel navigation box should be removed. While it's relevant to the list, I think it interferes with its flow and formatting more than it helps. It also makes it impossible to add more fields, which could be useful (like year when city status was granted or whatever). -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 12:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The existence of two separate pages with much of the same information seems needlessly confusing, and I don't see why all sets of data can't be accommodated here. Tewfik Talk 06:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The other page was originally created when there was no option to create sortable tables and therefore it was useful, so feel free to merge. In addition to that, I think the alternative spellings on this page which take up a lot of space should be replaced by statistical data, such as immigrants and population growth. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 08:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I must've missed it, but why was this article moved to List of cities by population in Israel? Not only is this against naming conventions (should be: List of cities in Israel by population), but also the table is sortable so it's not really a list by population (also the default sorting is by district/name). Moreover, its primary goal is to list cities in Israel, and their administrative districts, everything else is marginal. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 12:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The picture of Bnei Brak is a bit deceiving. It actually depicts a panorama of a larger area. This panorama especially when taken at night, makes it look like a tourist resort while in fact it is a suburb of ultra-orthodox Jews from lower socioeconomic group. DrorK 21:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Even though I think the pictures are great and relevant, I can't help thinking that they are unnecessary, mostly because there are many more columns which can be added to the table. And even now, there is overlap on Firefox between the images and the table on anything lower than 1024x768 (or a non-full-sized window on that resolution).
I think the table should have the following columns:
Other less important columns are:
Also I think that pronunciation sound files (.ogg) should be added for each city. I might record them myself in the coming days.
-- Ynhockey ( Talk) 23:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
If there's no objection, I'm going to start working on this page again, per my November 25 suggestion. This could easily make it to FL (I've seen much crappier lists pass), there are just a few very small issues to be resolved. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 20:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Currently the area of each city is presented in a very awkward way - it's in square kilometers, yet looks like dunams (say, the jurisdiction of Arad is shown as 93.140 km2, not 93.14, and/or 93,140 dunams). I think the areas should be presented in dunams (anyone who doesn't know what a dunam is can click on the link), although if a consensus is reached to keep showing them in km2, then the figures should be rounded somewhat, say to 1 decimal point. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 23:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this should be moved back to List of cities in Israel, per the accepted norm on the English Wikipedia. Naming articles without the word 'list' is a practice accepted on Hebrew Wikipedia, where the admins believe that simply not having the word 'list' in the title would make an article encyclopedic, which otherwise wouldn't be. I think it's ludicrous to accept the Hebrew Wiki's norm.
One good argument for why the article should have 'list' in its title is that it's actually a list (!), and not a content-based article on the cities on Israel.
-- Ynhockey ( Talk) 18:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The rectangle representing the Tel Aviv area in greater detail is clear, but I cannot tell where the topmost rectangle is drawn from. Perhaps I'm just being dense ...
timbo ( talk) 00:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
This page should reflect the names of all other pages in the list of cities by country category.
There is no need have the settlements included with the cities that are actually located in Israel - there is already a list of Israeli settlements in the West Bank here untwirl( talk) 19:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Why not rename it to List of cities in Israel and Israeli settlements if you really want to keep the two together? I dont see the relevance in the Modiin Illit RfC, that was about including the illegality of settlements in the lead of the article, not whether or not it should be called an Israeli city. nableezy - 16:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
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The following list of Israeli cities is based on the current index of the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS). Within Israel's system of local government, an urban municipality can be granted a city council by the Israeli Interior Ministry when its population exceeds 20,000. [1] The term "city" does not generally refer to local councils or urban agglomerations, even though a defined city often contains only a small portion of an urban area or metropolitan area's population. List of citiesIsrael has 14 cities with populations over 100,000, including Jerusalem at over a 500,000, and Tel Aviv, which is considered to be approaching global city status. [2] In all, there are 78 Israeli municipalities granted "city" status by the Ministry of the Interior, the most recent addition being the Arab Israeli settlement of Kafr Qasim. [3] The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area to which Israel has not applied its sovereignty. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council, [4] the United Nations General Assembly, [5] the International Court of Justice, [6] and the International Committee of the Red Cross [7] refer to it as occupied by Israel. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders, and is considered to have de jure annexation under the Jerusalem Law and is not recognized by the international community. [8] [9] The following sortable table lists all Israeli cities by name, district, area, and population, according to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics' 2008 [10] data: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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109.186.17.180 ( talk) 11:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
that list of cities is not correct, go to Category:Cities in Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.116.231.75 ( talk • contribs) 16 March 2011
"The term "city" does not generally refer to local councils or urban agglomerations"
If this is the case, what does the term "city" usually refer to in Israel? Seems like a strange sentence and definition to keep hanging, especially when you describe what doesn't generally define the term "city." -- Criticalthinker ( talk) 05:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
This article covers cities in Israel, the Golan Heights, and Israeli-administered cited in the West Bank, correct? Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 16:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Occupied areas are not Israeli. And we at Wikipedia are not to decide on that at all. - DePiep ( talk) 22:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Ynhockey, instead of playing dumb, you could change the lead to actually conform to NPOV by changing located in Israel and Israeli-administered parts of the West Bank to located in Israel and Israeli-occupied parts of the West Bank, and change the paragraph in the body from
The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area to which Israel has not applied its sovereignty. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Court of Justice, and the International Committee of the Red Cross refer to it as occupied by Israel. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders, and is considered to have de jure annexation under the Jerusalem Law and is not recognized by the international community.
to
The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area held under Israeli occupation. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, occupied Palestinian territory. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders. The international community has not recognized the annexation of East Jerusalem and considers it occupied Palestinian territory.
Then you might have cause to remove the NPOV tag. As it is, the article diminishes super-majority views in favor of fring-sized minority ones. nableezy - 20:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Israel is not internationally recognized as a city that belongs to Israel. I think we should consider removing it for accuracy.
-- Raa3 —Preceding comment was added at 02:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This statement in the lead is supported by this reference [4]. But the cited source does not mention the word "city" or city council. It discusses Municipalities which it says can "administer urban towns, generally with a population of over 20,000." the term municipality is not synonymous with city (see for instance mu·nic·i·pal·i·ty : a city, town, or district enjoying some degree of local self-government). So unless I am missing something the source does not support the statement.
This statement (and presumably the following table) is supported by this reference. [5] But the source is not a list of "Israeli cities", it is a list of "POPULATION(1) OF LOCALITIES NUMBERING ABOVE 2,000 RESIDENTS". The source does not mention the word city nor define any of the listed localities as "Israeli cities". So again, unless I am missing something, the source does not support the statement or the table.
Conciseness was that there was nothing wrong with calling Israeli settlement Israeli cities, at least in this context, and that consensus has stood for five years. That source doesn't say that Ariel isn't an Israeli city (i.e. that is is incorrect to call Ariel an Israeli city): Simply wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Totally wrong. - DePiep ( talk) 22:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Is this articles inclusion of Israeli settlements (with city status) as "Israeli cities" in this context original research, or otherwise problematic?
For some background: This was make a featured list, and this was how the article looked afterwards. During the deduction the article was renamed from the standered "List of cities in X" ("List of cities in Israel" in this case) to it's current title "List of Israeli cities" to reflect the scope which included "Israeli cites" which weren't in Israel-proper. My understanding is that consensus was that including these Israeli settlements "Israeli cities" in this context is fine.
Dlv999 and DePiep are concerned that calling these settlements "Israeli cities" is original research. Certainly the community should not have made this a featured list if it contained such a glaring peace of OR, so was the featured list discussion mistaken, is this OR. To clarify, Dlv999 and DePiep (unless I'm mistaken) do not dispute the settlements inclusion on this list per se, just the implication that they are "Israeli cities".
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the dispute comes down to the following question: Can the praise "Israeli cities" be used to include Israeli settlements, or does "Israeli cities" have the exact same meaning as "cities in Israel".
I should point out that the only reason the article was moved was because of the difference in meaning between the two, that "Israeli cities" can be used to include Israeli settlements. If "Israeli cities" have the exact same meaning as "cities in Israel" then there is no reason not to move the page back to "List of cities in "Israel" to match every other List of cities article such as List of cities in the United States and List of cities in Mexico.
I'll invite the people from the featured list discussion and related discussions on this page to this RFC. Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 20:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
My take on this is that they shouldn't be listed as Israeli cities. It's not Wikipedia's job to make political decisions implicit in that. In effect, rhetorically, that's like calling the West Bank part of Israel. Not for us to say. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 16:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
Figureofnine, those cities inclusion on this list doesn't support the point of view that WB is part of Israel, both because of paragraph #3 ("The list includes four ...") and if we wanted to show that WB was part of Israel, we'd list every West Bank incorporated city, not just the settlements.
Comment - I don't think the article can include cities, or rather Israeli settlements to use the common name, with city status beyond the green line and be in Category:Cities in Israel and Category:Lists of populated places in Israel. Those contradictions need to be addressed somehow. The simplest solution would probably be to remove the settlements from this article given that there is an article List of Israeli settlements with city status in the West Bank. The alternative of removing those categories or renaming them to something less specific like Category:Cities and Israeli settlements with city status in Israel and the West Bank and Category:Lists of populated places in Israel and the West Bank seems less than ideal. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:19, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The introduction says city status means a population of more than 20,000, but the list includes several cities that are smaller. The cited source says the following: "The law defines three types of local authorities: municipalities, local councils and regional councils. Municipalities administer urban towns, generally with a population of over 20,000." I imagine this means that some smaller towns are exceptionally granted city status, but some clarity would be nice. Lesgles ( talk) 01:22, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
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I would mainly like to ask about the presentation in the article about the possible presentation of content as in the article Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area.
I have recently submitted an RM from the title List of Israeli cities to List of cities in Israel contains with the suggestion that reference to East Jerusalem be removed from the article and that reference to Cities in the West Bank that were developed as Israeli settlements should be accounted for in the article with that name.
At present, despite a recent history in which East Jerusalem and West Jerusalem have been separated by clear national border, the article presents Jerusalem as a single unit while the areas in the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area are presented as a large number of conjoined cities.
At present the article presents a template image as shown on the right named "Israel cities labled map" and, although the settlements are not included on the map, I think it violates NPOV as it presents an indication of East Jerusalem as Israeli territory. It also gives some indication of the close relationship between the areas surrounding the centre of Tel Aviv which are otherwise well illustrated by google maps which seems to also be well illustrated when clicking to "earth" view. I am curious to know whether an influence in the subdivisions has been to present Jerusalem as being the largest "urban location" in Israel while it seems to me that this situation does not directly reflect either political or geographic realities. Israel has not chosen to present the Jaffa area, which was described as part of the proposed "Arab State" in the UN partition plan, as a separate entity but has chosen to declare areas such as Holon, where I used to live, as being cities.
Given the above, to what extent can / should the article reflect the size of the whole Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area in its article content?
Greg Kaye 17:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Following the publication of the "REPORT ON THE CURRENT STATUS OF UNITED NATIONS ROMANIZATION SYSTEMS FOR GEOGRAPHICAL NAMES" compiled by the UNGEGN Working Group on Romanization Systems - Version 3.0a, May 2008, the original United Nations recommended system (approved in 1977 and based on the official system (1957) proposed by the Academy of the Hebrew Language and used by the Survey of Israel) and following increasing public pressure over the years asking the Academy to change the transliteration rules, make them more simple and adapted to everyday use, after much deliberation, the system was amended in 2007, on the basis of a decision by the Academy of the Hebrew Language taken in November, 2006 the new rules have been ratified. So "ק" is now "k" and "ו" is now "v". For example, "Petah Tiqwa" should be "Petah Tikva". Barmispain ( talk) 13:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC). See link [1]
A serious extension, as well as some careful spell checking, are in order. ( Elzamam, 25/05/03)
I'm converting the text form of the list to tabular form, so that it will be easier for me to add "Gazeteer" equivalents of the cities' names. Also, this will make it more obvious where Arabic equivalents are missing, so that they can be filled in. I've already done the top two regions (Northern & Haifa), will churn this out as my insomnia dictates ;) I'm using [ Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names] as a source for Gazeteers' Forms; all of the "common" forms are listed there also, in fact many common forms appear! Suggestions are requested for other sources... -- D'n 01:36 22-November 2005 (UTC)
OK, damage restored, and all the tabling is done. What do people think about adding a 5th column, "Ethnicity"? Most cities would be "Jewish"; while Taybe and Qalansawe (for instance) would be Arab; Rahat Bedouin; and Jerusalem and Lod would be Mixed. D'n 05:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Check nl.wikipedia for later developements in Israeli local state. There 71 cities now (up from 70), after two were added, and two were combined (another one was combined with a local council). I have no clue who wrote the Dutch article ;-) gidonb 09:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Note, however, that the German Wikipedia has other information. It claims Elad and Mevasseret are cities. gidonb 09:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The list includes Ramallah!! which is not a city in israel (Ramla is), ramallah is a city in the west bank! am i missing something?-- Mayz 01:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Added Arabic names of Tira, Yafa, Eylat, Karmel.. (eom). 19:18, 28 January 2006 User:70.225.174.161 IP and timestamp added by gidonb
I think the State of Israel navigation box should be removed. While it's relevant to the list, I think it interferes with its flow and formatting more than it helps. It also makes it impossible to add more fields, which could be useful (like year when city status was granted or whatever). -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 12:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The existence of two separate pages with much of the same information seems needlessly confusing, and I don't see why all sets of data can't be accommodated here. Tewfik Talk 06:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The other page was originally created when there was no option to create sortable tables and therefore it was useful, so feel free to merge. In addition to that, I think the alternative spellings on this page which take up a lot of space should be replaced by statistical data, such as immigrants and population growth. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 08:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I must've missed it, but why was this article moved to List of cities by population in Israel? Not only is this against naming conventions (should be: List of cities in Israel by population), but also the table is sortable so it's not really a list by population (also the default sorting is by district/name). Moreover, its primary goal is to list cities in Israel, and their administrative districts, everything else is marginal. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 12:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
The picture of Bnei Brak is a bit deceiving. It actually depicts a panorama of a larger area. This panorama especially when taken at night, makes it look like a tourist resort while in fact it is a suburb of ultra-orthodox Jews from lower socioeconomic group. DrorK 21:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Even though I think the pictures are great and relevant, I can't help thinking that they are unnecessary, mostly because there are many more columns which can be added to the table. And even now, there is overlap on Firefox between the images and the table on anything lower than 1024x768 (or a non-full-sized window on that resolution).
I think the table should have the following columns:
Other less important columns are:
Also I think that pronunciation sound files (.ogg) should be added for each city. I might record them myself in the coming days.
-- Ynhockey ( Talk) 23:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
If there's no objection, I'm going to start working on this page again, per my November 25 suggestion. This could easily make it to FL (I've seen much crappier lists pass), there are just a few very small issues to be resolved. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 20:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Currently the area of each city is presented in a very awkward way - it's in square kilometers, yet looks like dunams (say, the jurisdiction of Arad is shown as 93.140 km2, not 93.14, and/or 93,140 dunams). I think the areas should be presented in dunams (anyone who doesn't know what a dunam is can click on the link), although if a consensus is reached to keep showing them in km2, then the figures should be rounded somewhat, say to 1 decimal point. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 23:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this should be moved back to List of cities in Israel, per the accepted norm on the English Wikipedia. Naming articles without the word 'list' is a practice accepted on Hebrew Wikipedia, where the admins believe that simply not having the word 'list' in the title would make an article encyclopedic, which otherwise wouldn't be. I think it's ludicrous to accept the Hebrew Wiki's norm.
One good argument for why the article should have 'list' in its title is that it's actually a list (!), and not a content-based article on the cities on Israel.
-- Ynhockey ( Talk) 18:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The rectangle representing the Tel Aviv area in greater detail is clear, but I cannot tell where the topmost rectangle is drawn from. Perhaps I'm just being dense ...
timbo ( talk) 00:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
This page should reflect the names of all other pages in the list of cities by country category.
There is no need have the settlements included with the cities that are actually located in Israel - there is already a list of Israeli settlements in the West Bank here untwirl( talk) 19:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Why not rename it to List of cities in Israel and Israeli settlements if you really want to keep the two together? I dont see the relevance in the Modiin Illit RfC, that was about including the illegality of settlements in the lead of the article, not whether or not it should be called an Israeli city. nableezy - 16:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
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The following list of Israeli cities is based on the current index of the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS). Within Israel's system of local government, an urban municipality can be granted a city council by the Israeli Interior Ministry when its population exceeds 20,000. [1] The term "city" does not generally refer to local councils or urban agglomerations, even though a defined city often contains only a small portion of an urban area or metropolitan area's population. List of citiesIsrael has 14 cities with populations over 100,000, including Jerusalem at over a 500,000, and Tel Aviv, which is considered to be approaching global city status. [2] In all, there are 78 Israeli municipalities granted "city" status by the Ministry of the Interior, the most recent addition being the Arab Israeli settlement of Kafr Qasim. [3] The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area to which Israel has not applied its sovereignty. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council, [4] the United Nations General Assembly, [5] the International Court of Justice, [6] and the International Committee of the Red Cross [7] refer to it as occupied by Israel. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders, and is considered to have de jure annexation under the Jerusalem Law and is not recognized by the international community. [8] [9] The following sortable table lists all Israeli cities by name, district, area, and population, according to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics' 2008 [10] data: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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109.186.17.180 ( talk) 11:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
that list of cities is not correct, go to Category:Cities in Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.116.231.75 ( talk • contribs) 16 March 2011
"The term "city" does not generally refer to local councils or urban agglomerations"
If this is the case, what does the term "city" usually refer to in Israel? Seems like a strange sentence and definition to keep hanging, especially when you describe what doesn't generally define the term "city." -- Criticalthinker ( talk) 05:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
This article covers cities in Israel, the Golan Heights, and Israeli-administered cited in the West Bank, correct? Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 16:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Occupied areas are not Israeli. And we at Wikipedia are not to decide on that at all. - DePiep ( talk) 22:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Ynhockey, instead of playing dumb, you could change the lead to actually conform to NPOV by changing located in Israel and Israeli-administered parts of the West Bank to located in Israel and Israeli-occupied parts of the West Bank, and change the paragraph in the body from
The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area to which Israel has not applied its sovereignty. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Court of Justice, and the International Committee of the Red Cross refer to it as occupied by Israel. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders, and is considered to have de jure annexation under the Jerusalem Law and is not recognized by the international community.
to
The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area held under Israeli occupation. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, occupied Palestinian territory. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders. The international community has not recognized the annexation of East Jerusalem and considers it occupied Palestinian territory.
Then you might have cause to remove the NPOV tag. As it is, the article diminishes super-majority views in favor of fring-sized minority ones. nableezy - 20:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Israel is not internationally recognized as a city that belongs to Israel. I think we should consider removing it for accuracy.
-- Raa3 —Preceding comment was added at 02:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This statement in the lead is supported by this reference [4]. But the cited source does not mention the word "city" or city council. It discusses Municipalities which it says can "administer urban towns, generally with a population of over 20,000." the term municipality is not synonymous with city (see for instance mu·nic·i·pal·i·ty : a city, town, or district enjoying some degree of local self-government). So unless I am missing something the source does not support the statement.
This statement (and presumably the following table) is supported by this reference. [5] But the source is not a list of "Israeli cities", it is a list of "POPULATION(1) OF LOCALITIES NUMBERING ABOVE 2,000 RESIDENTS". The source does not mention the word city nor define any of the listed localities as "Israeli cities". So again, unless I am missing something, the source does not support the statement or the table.
Conciseness was that there was nothing wrong with calling Israeli settlement Israeli cities, at least in this context, and that consensus has stood for five years. That source doesn't say that Ariel isn't an Israeli city (i.e. that is is incorrect to call Ariel an Israeli city): Simply wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Totally wrong. - DePiep ( talk) 22:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Is this articles inclusion of Israeli settlements (with city status) as "Israeli cities" in this context original research, or otherwise problematic?
For some background: This was make a featured list, and this was how the article looked afterwards. During the deduction the article was renamed from the standered "List of cities in X" ("List of cities in Israel" in this case) to it's current title "List of Israeli cities" to reflect the scope which included "Israeli cites" which weren't in Israel-proper. My understanding is that consensus was that including these Israeli settlements "Israeli cities" in this context is fine.
Dlv999 and DePiep are concerned that calling these settlements "Israeli cities" is original research. Certainly the community should not have made this a featured list if it contained such a glaring peace of OR, so was the featured list discussion mistaken, is this OR. To clarify, Dlv999 and DePiep (unless I'm mistaken) do not dispute the settlements inclusion on this list per se, just the implication that they are "Israeli cities".
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the dispute comes down to the following question: Can the praise "Israeli cities" be used to include Israeli settlements, or does "Israeli cities" have the exact same meaning as "cities in Israel".
I should point out that the only reason the article was moved was because of the difference in meaning between the two, that "Israeli cities" can be used to include Israeli settlements. If "Israeli cities" have the exact same meaning as "cities in Israel" then there is no reason not to move the page back to "List of cities in "Israel" to match every other List of cities article such as List of cities in the United States and List of cities in Mexico.
I'll invite the people from the featured list discussion and related discussions on this page to this RFC. Emmette Hernandez Coleman ( talk) 20:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
My take on this is that they shouldn't be listed as Israeli cities. It's not Wikipedia's job to make political decisions implicit in that. In effect, rhetorically, that's like calling the West Bank part of Israel. Not for us to say. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 16:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
Figureofnine, those cities inclusion on this list doesn't support the point of view that WB is part of Israel, both because of paragraph #3 ("The list includes four ...") and if we wanted to show that WB was part of Israel, we'd list every West Bank incorporated city, not just the settlements.
Comment - I don't think the article can include cities, or rather Israeli settlements to use the common name, with city status beyond the green line and be in Category:Cities in Israel and Category:Lists of populated places in Israel. Those contradictions need to be addressed somehow. The simplest solution would probably be to remove the settlements from this article given that there is an article List of Israeli settlements with city status in the West Bank. The alternative of removing those categories or renaming them to something less specific like Category:Cities and Israeli settlements with city status in Israel and the West Bank and Category:Lists of populated places in Israel and the West Bank seems less than ideal. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:19, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The introduction says city status means a population of more than 20,000, but the list includes several cities that are smaller. The cited source says the following: "The law defines three types of local authorities: municipalities, local councils and regional councils. Municipalities administer urban towns, generally with a population of over 20,000." I imagine this means that some smaller towns are exceptionally granted city status, but some clarity would be nice. Lesgles ( talk) 01:22, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
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I would mainly like to ask about the presentation in the article about the possible presentation of content as in the article Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area.
I have recently submitted an RM from the title List of Israeli cities to List of cities in Israel contains with the suggestion that reference to East Jerusalem be removed from the article and that reference to Cities in the West Bank that were developed as Israeli settlements should be accounted for in the article with that name.
At present, despite a recent history in which East Jerusalem and West Jerusalem have been separated by clear national border, the article presents Jerusalem as a single unit while the areas in the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area are presented as a large number of conjoined cities.
At present the article presents a template image as shown on the right named "Israel cities labled map" and, although the settlements are not included on the map, I think it violates NPOV as it presents an indication of East Jerusalem as Israeli territory. It also gives some indication of the close relationship between the areas surrounding the centre of Tel Aviv which are otherwise well illustrated by google maps which seems to also be well illustrated when clicking to "earth" view. I am curious to know whether an influence in the subdivisions has been to present Jerusalem as being the largest "urban location" in Israel while it seems to me that this situation does not directly reflect either political or geographic realities. Israel has not chosen to present the Jaffa area, which was described as part of the proposed "Arab State" in the UN partition plan, as a separate entity but has chosen to declare areas such as Holon, where I used to live, as being cities.
Given the above, to what extent can / should the article reflect the size of the whole Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area in its article content?
Greg Kaye 17:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)