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According to notes editted for the fifth campaign (1532) by Kebeta (who has also created the article Siege of Güns) Suleiman led an army to besiege Vienna. Ferdinand I withdrew his army, leaving only 700 men with no cannons and a few guns to defend Koszeg. After prolonged Siege of Güns (Köszeg), Suleiman withdrew and went homeward. However, this claim is not supported by my sources. So without any reference to Güns, I reeditted the note. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
The contributions to this article (especially the sources and the images) are fine. Thanks. But we should be careful with the sources. They are not always reliable. For example the last sentence in the introduction (which is sourced) is clearly incorrect. It reads The stagnation lasted to the Treaty of Karlowitz in 1699, in which the Empire lost much of its European territory. (I have deleted this sentence on the ground that Treaty of Karlowitz has nothing to do with Suleiman, but my delete was immediately reverted.) Anyway, much of territory may imply most (more than 50 %). However, in any map, the Ottoman losses can be found to be about 20 % of the former European territory. I didn't change the wording , but I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 14:47, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't like to revert the edits of the other editors. To me using the discussion page is a better alternative than reverting.There are two issues to discuss, the names of the campaigns and the 1699 treaty. For the name of the campaigns, I think it is best to use the name given by the campaigners and I still think 1699 treaty is highly irrevelant in this article. In particular:
I believe that the belligerents in the sidebox template is highly meaningless in this article. Because although Habsburgs and the Safavids were always opponents, the other governments usually changed sides between the campaigns. For example, Moldavia has been given as the ally of Ottoman empire. In fact it was the vassal of Ottoman Empire and the 8th campaign was directed to Moldovia, when Petreştu decided to end the vassal status. Venice has been given as an enemy of the Ottoman Empire. In fact, except for the 7th campaign Venice was usually in good terms with the Ottoman Empire. I plan to clear the belligerents part of the side box after seeing the feedbacks (if any). Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 18:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The coloring editted on the 22nd of March which represents Süleyman's 3 defeats don't reflect a historical fact, but rather the opinion of an editor. A monarch is considered to be defeated if he loses territory or if he is forced to pay reparations. Süleyman never lost territory and never paid reparations. Just the reverse, in 1529 although he couldn't capture Vienna, he drove Ferdinand back from Hungary, in 1532 he captured several forts and challanged Charles Quint. Moreover in treaties signed after 1532 and 1537, it was the opponents of Süleyman who paid the reparations. But it is true that the gains in 1529, 1532 and 1537 campaigns were less than the expectations. So these may be considered unclear outcome. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi Nedim Ardoğa, and thanks for disscusing instead of edit-waring, and please don't be offended by my reply to you, because everything that I am doing here is in the best interest of the article.
Now, I am willing to put everything of above behind us, if you are willing to do the same. I must say though, that I don't see a reason why you have a problem with me or with mine edits, since I have improved the article. I have expaned the article, and added citation for almost every sentence. The sources are highly realible. If you have some sources that are saying otherwise, I am ready to listen, and discuss them, to see what is the best way to present them in the article. There is only one thing left unreferenced, which is campaigh 11, for which I have a source, but unrealible. That is way I left it unreferenced until a realible source. If you can cite that, that would be great. Anything else that you want to discuss is fine by me, but you can't say something, revert the article and conclude the discussion without leting me a chance to say anything. You can not reject here, but we can discuss and conclude an agreement. Regards, Kebeta ( talk) 18:16, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
The phrase Leaving everything behind us looks like you consider our previous discussion as a quarrel. No, it was not. I see you are a serious editor and I have nothing against you. The only thing I criticize with you is that you sometimes take the opinion of the writers as factual sources. For example in 1533 Ferdinad agreed to sign a treaty with very unfavarable terms for Austria. Still you call the previous two campaigns of Suleyman a defeat. If Suleyman was defeated why did Ferdinand sign that scandalous treaty ? It was no doubt an opinion of a writer. The sources should be used if they are serious and logical. Anyway, in the future I hope we'll collaborate on other articles. Happy editting. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 18:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I don’t think admiration has much to do with the article. I personally don't admire Suleyman I. He killed two of his sons and a number of statesmen including two grand viziers and Piri Reis, the greatest geographer Turkey ever had. But, anyway he was never defeated in any of his campaigns.
In all campaigns political aim was realized. In most campaigns there were territorial gains as well. How can we define these campaigns as defeat ? At most they can be called undecide or a tie . Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 10:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I am glad to see that we are coming to a certain consensus and I hope this discussion will end soon. In the 4th campaign (1529) Suleyman succeded in forcing the Germans and the Austrians out of Hungary. He was victorious. But he also tried to threaten Ferdinand by sieging Wien. Although it was not the target of the campaign, because of this last step, the otherwise highly successful campaign can be classified as unclear outcome. On the other hand, calling Suleyman's 5th campaign (1532) as a campaign on Wien is just an urban legend. Please refer to nearest atlas (or google map). Güns and Wien are roughly the same distance from İstanbul. Güns is 90 km south of Wien, bird's flight, which makes a road distance of probably 120-130 km. Süleyman had no panzer divisions of Hitler. He had camels and horses at his disposal. He could cover this distance in no less than 15 days. If his decision was to capture Wien why didn't he campaign directly on Wien but chose a route which would delay him 15 days ? Also please note that although Suleyman invaded whole Hungary during the 3rd and 4th campaigns, he didn't even try to annex the Buda (until the 9th campaign after Zapolya's death ). If he was reluctant to annex Buda, why was he eager to annex Wien which was 220 km west of Buda ? The fact is that Suleyman prepared for an open field battle just like his 3rd campaign (1526) on Mohach but he couldn't find any opponent on the field. You can also call this campaign as a unclear outcome. But what was the result ? The result was that the Holy Roman Empire agreed to acknowledge Ottoman suzerainty on Hungary. If Holy Roman Empire withdrew all of its assertions on Hungary how can you call this Suleyman's defeat ? Oh please don't change the definition of the word defeat. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 07:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Nedim Ardoğa! I know that things weren't perfect between us, but we didn't engaged in edit war and we discussed our concerns the best we could. You may noticed that I have changed campaign 5 from 'defeat' into 'Indecisive or unclear outcome'. Some minor work is still needed, but I am happy to announce you that I have made a request at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates. I hope that more experienced editors will contribute with thear "small" remarks (I hope), so this article can be future FL. I hope that you are willing to participate as well. Regards, -- Kebeta ( talk) 16:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Can you explain you recent edits, especially because of this. I practically beg you to discuss any problems, and I am not hard to discuss. I have removed almost everything from the article which you have asked me on the talk page before. Why are you being disruptive now?-- Kebeta ( talk) 08:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
To Kebeta: You have disappointed me. I used to picture you as a serious contributer. But it turned out that instead of discussing and trying to reach an aggrement, you prefer accusing. I can't image how we can collaborate after this rootless accusation. The only suggestion on my part is to delete the color scheme and defeat-success opinions. After all, unlike names, dates, routes, etc., defeat and success decision more or less depend on the personal opinion of the authors. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 18:28, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
You accused me of sabotaging an article created by me. What a logic ! But what do you expect from me ? A collaboration ? I called you for discussion and coming to mutual aggrement on 16 March. (See above) You didn't mind and continued to make hundreds of editions without consulting. Now it seems you have changed your mind. I hope this is a genuine attitute change. I prefer to create new articles. But now I take time to list my suggestions
If we come to a certain understanding, the rest (some sentences) wouldn' t be much of a problem. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 11:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Kebeta's replies
Takabeg ( talk) 21:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
The lead needs work. I couldn't get past the first sentence. It should not be about Suleiman, but about his campaigns. 216.8.143.149 ( talk) 19:22, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Have you ever realized how much time I’ve lost in answering you ? I’d rather use this time to be more productive. I hope this will be my last long message in this page (Mean while please note that I moved your reply which was all mixed in my previous message to a separate section for the sake of clarity.) As for the images of the opponents: In most war articles in Wikipedia names of the monarchs have given given as the commander of belligrents (see for instance Long War (Ottoman wars) In this war Murat III and Ahmet I were never out of İstanbul and yet they were given as the commanders. Probably the same is true for Rudolf I, Holy Roman Emperor.) So there is nothing wrong to show the monarchs in the picture gallery of the opponents. On the previous defeat discussion; no Suleyman was never defeated. An Austrian chronologist who eyewitnessed Suleyman’s failure in capturing Vienna may call it a defeat. But campaign was not solely directed to Vienna. The purpose of the campaign was to capture Budin and repulse Austrians from Hungary, a task which was easily accomplished. Remember even the Szent Korona ( the historical crown of Hungary ) was seized from the Austrians by Suleyman’s soldiers. Extending the campaign to Vienna was explained in Pargalı İbrahim Pasha’s letter to Austrian commander (written in Italian, it was to translated to German and then to Turkish and now a I try to translate it to English) It reads “...We didn’t come to conquer your city, We came here to defeat your archduke. Failing to find him here, we lost too much time” (source: Hammer, section XXV (XXVI), subsection heading Conquest of Buda and siege of Vienna, in my book Vol 1, p.322) In Halil İbrahim İnal’s Osmanlı Tarihi (History of Ottoman Empire, ISBN 978-9944-174 Parameter error in {{ ISBN}}: checksum-37, 217) the campaign was explained as “After staying in Budin for 6 days, Suleyman decided to move to Vienna to face Ferdinand. On the way he captured Mosonmagyaróvár . ...It was understood that Ferdinand was not in Vienna.” According to Prof Ali Sevim and Yaşar Yücel, ( Türkiye tarihi Cilt II, AKDTYKTTK Yayınları, İstanbul, cilt 2, p 271 ) 60 000 POW accompanied Suleyman on his way to home. What kind of defeat is this. ? Now look at Encyclopaedia Britannica : … carried out great offensives designed not so much to achieve the conquest of Austria for it is doubtful that the Ottomans could have held Vienna even if it fallen to them, as to convince Archdukee Ferdinand that it would be wise to renounce all hope of gaining the Hungarian kingdom…(Expo 70 ed., St book no 85229 135 3, Vol 22 p 370). This is almost exactly what I have written in this page. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 07:23, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources and Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources, primary sources are not preferred in Wikipedia. Maybe we can use it in the footnote.
I think these books are acceptable as identifying reliable sources:
And I have a question about Halil İbrahim İnal. Is he a professional historian ?
Takabeg ( talk) 13:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Campaign 7 or Corfu or Apulia (Turkish: Pulya) started on 17 May 1537. Klis was beset from 1515 until 1537, and was not personally led by Suleiman, and certainly was not a part of his Corfu campaign. See here. The siege of Klis resulted in an Ottoman victory 2-3 months before the Campaign 7 even started.-- Kebeta ( talk) 16:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Get well soon. As for the topic at hand; why are we discussing? I had a sourced contribution last night and now I see you had deleted one of my contributions (campaign 7) and the recolored red the other one (campaign 4). Is this what you define collabroration ? In our previous discussions, you asked for sources. After I present the sources you still continue with your prejudiced attitıde. Once again, defeated commander loses something. (territory, city, money, political right etc.) Exactly what did Süleyman lose ? Nothing, even in his most unfortunate campaign he gained something albeit less than what he had expected at the beginning . But that is no reason to call these campaigns defeat. Unclear outcome is a more balanced opinion. Now I'm going to insert what you have deleted last night. And one thing more, you are free to call other users to check the sources. But you should realize that I am respectable person and your mistrust in my words is as bad as your prejudice. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 10:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
The antonym of the verb to defeat is to lose. (source Webster) If somebody is defeated he/she loses something at the end of the operation. Otherwise, it is not a defeat. Since Suleyman never lost anything in his operations, he was never defeated. As for Klis and Solin, you are right when you point out that Süleyman was not present in the sieges. So what ? As it is true with most of the chief commanders, Süleyman wasn't present in most of the sieges. But his subordinates actively participated in the sieges within the scope of the campaign. (I suggest you check World War II in Wikipedia. In the sidebox you'll read the names of commanders and leaders . Which one of them was at the battle line ? ) Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 12:24, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Solin and Klis were not included in the imperial campaign of Suleiman the Mangificent. If you want you can refer to them in the footnote. Takabeg ( talk) 22:10, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
To Kebeta
You feel I am not trustable. OK, I am not in a position to dictate whom to trust. But please note that in collaboration you should take your partner's views into consideration. In certain campaigns and battles it is impossible to determine who was defeated. (See the sidebox in the article Battle of Kadesh) In NPOV the first rule is Avoid stating opinions as fact. Since there are conflicting opinions on the succes of some of Suleyman's campaigns it is best to clear success-failure data. As for the suggestion to use colors to indicate campaigns directed to Christian and Moslem countries, I find religion based classification somewhat superfluous. (But if you insist I won't revert it) There is one thing more, the introductory paragraph is too lengthy . After all this article is about the campaigns and not about Suleyman. (By the way, last year the article Suleyman I was a featured article) I hope we'll come to a common understanding. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 15:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
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Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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This article relies on some unreliable sources. In particular it cites the works of Kinross and Wheatcroft, who are both pop-historians and cannot be cited as reliable sources. It also relies very heavily on the work of Turnbull, who is not a scholar of Ottoman history. These citations should be checked against scholarly works produced by historians who actually specialize in the Ottoman Empire. Chamboz ( talk) 17:05, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
List of campaigns of Suleiman the Magnificent is a former featured list candidate. Please view the link under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. Once the objections have been addressed you may resubmit the article for featured list status. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured list candidate |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
According to notes editted for the fifth campaign (1532) by Kebeta (who has also created the article Siege of Güns) Suleiman led an army to besiege Vienna. Ferdinand I withdrew his army, leaving only 700 men with no cannons and a few guns to defend Koszeg. After prolonged Siege of Güns (Köszeg), Suleiman withdrew and went homeward. However, this claim is not supported by my sources. So without any reference to Güns, I reeditted the note. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
The contributions to this article (especially the sources and the images) are fine. Thanks. But we should be careful with the sources. They are not always reliable. For example the last sentence in the introduction (which is sourced) is clearly incorrect. It reads The stagnation lasted to the Treaty of Karlowitz in 1699, in which the Empire lost much of its European territory. (I have deleted this sentence on the ground that Treaty of Karlowitz has nothing to do with Suleiman, but my delete was immediately reverted.) Anyway, much of territory may imply most (more than 50 %). However, in any map, the Ottoman losses can be found to be about 20 % of the former European territory. I didn't change the wording , but I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 14:47, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't like to revert the edits of the other editors. To me using the discussion page is a better alternative than reverting.There are two issues to discuss, the names of the campaigns and the 1699 treaty. For the name of the campaigns, I think it is best to use the name given by the campaigners and I still think 1699 treaty is highly irrevelant in this article. In particular:
I believe that the belligerents in the sidebox template is highly meaningless in this article. Because although Habsburgs and the Safavids were always opponents, the other governments usually changed sides between the campaigns. For example, Moldavia has been given as the ally of Ottoman empire. In fact it was the vassal of Ottoman Empire and the 8th campaign was directed to Moldovia, when Petreştu decided to end the vassal status. Venice has been given as an enemy of the Ottoman Empire. In fact, except for the 7th campaign Venice was usually in good terms with the Ottoman Empire. I plan to clear the belligerents part of the side box after seeing the feedbacks (if any). Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 18:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The coloring editted on the 22nd of March which represents Süleyman's 3 defeats don't reflect a historical fact, but rather the opinion of an editor. A monarch is considered to be defeated if he loses territory or if he is forced to pay reparations. Süleyman never lost territory and never paid reparations. Just the reverse, in 1529 although he couldn't capture Vienna, he drove Ferdinand back from Hungary, in 1532 he captured several forts and challanged Charles Quint. Moreover in treaties signed after 1532 and 1537, it was the opponents of Süleyman who paid the reparations. But it is true that the gains in 1529, 1532 and 1537 campaigns were less than the expectations. So these may be considered unclear outcome. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi Nedim Ardoğa, and thanks for disscusing instead of edit-waring, and please don't be offended by my reply to you, because everything that I am doing here is in the best interest of the article.
Now, I am willing to put everything of above behind us, if you are willing to do the same. I must say though, that I don't see a reason why you have a problem with me or with mine edits, since I have improved the article. I have expaned the article, and added citation for almost every sentence. The sources are highly realible. If you have some sources that are saying otherwise, I am ready to listen, and discuss them, to see what is the best way to present them in the article. There is only one thing left unreferenced, which is campaigh 11, for which I have a source, but unrealible. That is way I left it unreferenced until a realible source. If you can cite that, that would be great. Anything else that you want to discuss is fine by me, but you can't say something, revert the article and conclude the discussion without leting me a chance to say anything. You can not reject here, but we can discuss and conclude an agreement. Regards, Kebeta ( talk) 18:16, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
The phrase Leaving everything behind us looks like you consider our previous discussion as a quarrel. No, it was not. I see you are a serious editor and I have nothing against you. The only thing I criticize with you is that you sometimes take the opinion of the writers as factual sources. For example in 1533 Ferdinad agreed to sign a treaty with very unfavarable terms for Austria. Still you call the previous two campaigns of Suleyman a defeat. If Suleyman was defeated why did Ferdinand sign that scandalous treaty ? It was no doubt an opinion of a writer. The sources should be used if they are serious and logical. Anyway, in the future I hope we'll collaborate on other articles. Happy editting. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 18:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I don’t think admiration has much to do with the article. I personally don't admire Suleyman I. He killed two of his sons and a number of statesmen including two grand viziers and Piri Reis, the greatest geographer Turkey ever had. But, anyway he was never defeated in any of his campaigns.
In all campaigns political aim was realized. In most campaigns there were territorial gains as well. How can we define these campaigns as defeat ? At most they can be called undecide or a tie . Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 10:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I am glad to see that we are coming to a certain consensus and I hope this discussion will end soon. In the 4th campaign (1529) Suleyman succeded in forcing the Germans and the Austrians out of Hungary. He was victorious. But he also tried to threaten Ferdinand by sieging Wien. Although it was not the target of the campaign, because of this last step, the otherwise highly successful campaign can be classified as unclear outcome. On the other hand, calling Suleyman's 5th campaign (1532) as a campaign on Wien is just an urban legend. Please refer to nearest atlas (or google map). Güns and Wien are roughly the same distance from İstanbul. Güns is 90 km south of Wien, bird's flight, which makes a road distance of probably 120-130 km. Süleyman had no panzer divisions of Hitler. He had camels and horses at his disposal. He could cover this distance in no less than 15 days. If his decision was to capture Wien why didn't he campaign directly on Wien but chose a route which would delay him 15 days ? Also please note that although Suleyman invaded whole Hungary during the 3rd and 4th campaigns, he didn't even try to annex the Buda (until the 9th campaign after Zapolya's death ). If he was reluctant to annex Buda, why was he eager to annex Wien which was 220 km west of Buda ? The fact is that Suleyman prepared for an open field battle just like his 3rd campaign (1526) on Mohach but he couldn't find any opponent on the field. You can also call this campaign as a unclear outcome. But what was the result ? The result was that the Holy Roman Empire agreed to acknowledge Ottoman suzerainty on Hungary. If Holy Roman Empire withdrew all of its assertions on Hungary how can you call this Suleyman's defeat ? Oh please don't change the definition of the word defeat. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 07:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Nedim Ardoğa! I know that things weren't perfect between us, but we didn't engaged in edit war and we discussed our concerns the best we could. You may noticed that I have changed campaign 5 from 'defeat' into 'Indecisive or unclear outcome'. Some minor work is still needed, but I am happy to announce you that I have made a request at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates. I hope that more experienced editors will contribute with thear "small" remarks (I hope), so this article can be future FL. I hope that you are willing to participate as well. Regards, -- Kebeta ( talk) 16:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Can you explain you recent edits, especially because of this. I practically beg you to discuss any problems, and I am not hard to discuss. I have removed almost everything from the article which you have asked me on the talk page before. Why are you being disruptive now?-- Kebeta ( talk) 08:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
To Kebeta: You have disappointed me. I used to picture you as a serious contributer. But it turned out that instead of discussing and trying to reach an aggrement, you prefer accusing. I can't image how we can collaborate after this rootless accusation. The only suggestion on my part is to delete the color scheme and defeat-success opinions. After all, unlike names, dates, routes, etc., defeat and success decision more or less depend on the personal opinion of the authors. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 18:28, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
You accused me of sabotaging an article created by me. What a logic ! But what do you expect from me ? A collaboration ? I called you for discussion and coming to mutual aggrement on 16 March. (See above) You didn't mind and continued to make hundreds of editions without consulting. Now it seems you have changed your mind. I hope this is a genuine attitute change. I prefer to create new articles. But now I take time to list my suggestions
If we come to a certain understanding, the rest (some sentences) wouldn' t be much of a problem. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 11:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Kebeta's replies
Takabeg ( talk) 21:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
The lead needs work. I couldn't get past the first sentence. It should not be about Suleiman, but about his campaigns. 216.8.143.149 ( talk) 19:22, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Have you ever realized how much time I’ve lost in answering you ? I’d rather use this time to be more productive. I hope this will be my last long message in this page (Mean while please note that I moved your reply which was all mixed in my previous message to a separate section for the sake of clarity.) As for the images of the opponents: In most war articles in Wikipedia names of the monarchs have given given as the commander of belligrents (see for instance Long War (Ottoman wars) In this war Murat III and Ahmet I were never out of İstanbul and yet they were given as the commanders. Probably the same is true for Rudolf I, Holy Roman Emperor.) So there is nothing wrong to show the monarchs in the picture gallery of the opponents. On the previous defeat discussion; no Suleyman was never defeated. An Austrian chronologist who eyewitnessed Suleyman’s failure in capturing Vienna may call it a defeat. But campaign was not solely directed to Vienna. The purpose of the campaign was to capture Budin and repulse Austrians from Hungary, a task which was easily accomplished. Remember even the Szent Korona ( the historical crown of Hungary ) was seized from the Austrians by Suleyman’s soldiers. Extending the campaign to Vienna was explained in Pargalı İbrahim Pasha’s letter to Austrian commander (written in Italian, it was to translated to German and then to Turkish and now a I try to translate it to English) It reads “...We didn’t come to conquer your city, We came here to defeat your archduke. Failing to find him here, we lost too much time” (source: Hammer, section XXV (XXVI), subsection heading Conquest of Buda and siege of Vienna, in my book Vol 1, p.322) In Halil İbrahim İnal’s Osmanlı Tarihi (History of Ottoman Empire, ISBN 978-9944-174 Parameter error in {{ ISBN}}: checksum-37, 217) the campaign was explained as “After staying in Budin for 6 days, Suleyman decided to move to Vienna to face Ferdinand. On the way he captured Mosonmagyaróvár . ...It was understood that Ferdinand was not in Vienna.” According to Prof Ali Sevim and Yaşar Yücel, ( Türkiye tarihi Cilt II, AKDTYKTTK Yayınları, İstanbul, cilt 2, p 271 ) 60 000 POW accompanied Suleyman on his way to home. What kind of defeat is this. ? Now look at Encyclopaedia Britannica : … carried out great offensives designed not so much to achieve the conquest of Austria for it is doubtful that the Ottomans could have held Vienna even if it fallen to them, as to convince Archdukee Ferdinand that it would be wise to renounce all hope of gaining the Hungarian kingdom…(Expo 70 ed., St book no 85229 135 3, Vol 22 p 370). This is almost exactly what I have written in this page. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 07:23, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources and Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources, primary sources are not preferred in Wikipedia. Maybe we can use it in the footnote.
I think these books are acceptable as identifying reliable sources:
And I have a question about Halil İbrahim İnal. Is he a professional historian ?
Takabeg ( talk) 13:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Campaign 7 or Corfu or Apulia (Turkish: Pulya) started on 17 May 1537. Klis was beset from 1515 until 1537, and was not personally led by Suleiman, and certainly was not a part of his Corfu campaign. See here. The siege of Klis resulted in an Ottoman victory 2-3 months before the Campaign 7 even started.-- Kebeta ( talk) 16:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Get well soon. As for the topic at hand; why are we discussing? I had a sourced contribution last night and now I see you had deleted one of my contributions (campaign 7) and the recolored red the other one (campaign 4). Is this what you define collabroration ? In our previous discussions, you asked for sources. After I present the sources you still continue with your prejudiced attitıde. Once again, defeated commander loses something. (territory, city, money, political right etc.) Exactly what did Süleyman lose ? Nothing, even in his most unfortunate campaign he gained something albeit less than what he had expected at the beginning . But that is no reason to call these campaigns defeat. Unclear outcome is a more balanced opinion. Now I'm going to insert what you have deleted last night. And one thing more, you are free to call other users to check the sources. But you should realize that I am respectable person and your mistrust in my words is as bad as your prejudice. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 10:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
The antonym of the verb to defeat is to lose. (source Webster) If somebody is defeated he/she loses something at the end of the operation. Otherwise, it is not a defeat. Since Suleyman never lost anything in his operations, he was never defeated. As for Klis and Solin, you are right when you point out that Süleyman was not present in the sieges. So what ? As it is true with most of the chief commanders, Süleyman wasn't present in most of the sieges. But his subordinates actively participated in the sieges within the scope of the campaign. (I suggest you check World War II in Wikipedia. In the sidebox you'll read the names of commanders and leaders . Which one of them was at the battle line ? ) Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 12:24, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Solin and Klis were not included in the imperial campaign of Suleiman the Mangificent. If you want you can refer to them in the footnote. Takabeg ( talk) 22:10, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
To Kebeta
You feel I am not trustable. OK, I am not in a position to dictate whom to trust. But please note that in collaboration you should take your partner's views into consideration. In certain campaigns and battles it is impossible to determine who was defeated. (See the sidebox in the article Battle of Kadesh) In NPOV the first rule is Avoid stating opinions as fact. Since there are conflicting opinions on the succes of some of Suleyman's campaigns it is best to clear success-failure data. As for the suggestion to use colors to indicate campaigns directed to Christian and Moslem countries, I find religion based classification somewhat superfluous. (But if you insist I won't revert it) There is one thing more, the introductory paragraph is too lengthy . After all this article is about the campaigns and not about Suleyman. (By the way, last year the article Suleyman I was a featured article) I hope we'll come to a common understanding. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 15:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
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This article relies on some unreliable sources. In particular it cites the works of Kinross and Wheatcroft, who are both pop-historians and cannot be cited as reliable sources. It also relies very heavily on the work of Turnbull, who is not a scholar of Ottoman history. These citations should be checked against scholarly works produced by historians who actually specialize in the Ottoman Empire. Chamboz ( talk) 17:05, 17 September 2016 (UTC)