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Nice work here thus far. I was wondering, what about cases where a shootdown is alledged? I'm not talking conspiracy theories here, but cases where there is serious likelyhood the aircraft was in fact shot down. To take two examples I have worked on, the 2007 Balad aircraft crash and the 2007 Mogadishu TransAVIAexport Airlines Il-76 crash were both, to my mind, almost certainly shootdowns. In the later, Belarussian officials even reacted openly as to an act of terrorism, and instigated a terrorist investigation. What sort of guidlines can we come up with? Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 21:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Should this include the 2002 "narrow miss" [1] of an Arkia plane taking off in Kenya? That incident resulted in missile defense install on israeli civilian planes.. Skullers 02:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
not sure if it counts as an airliner. Any thoughts? Egg Centric ( talk) 12:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
I have removed a reference to an alleged shootdown of an ethiopian airplane by israel in the Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114 entry. I have also removed it in the main article for that incident. It was added to the main article in February 2009 without a source and without explanation in the edit summary. No source has been provided and I cannot find any reference online to the alleged incident that does not apparently stem from the (incorrect) wikipedia entry. - Redshield3 ( talk) 15:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I removed this section from the list as it doesn't belong to it. A military helicopter is clearly not an airliner. Phoenix ICR ( talk) 16:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering whether this event should not be included into the list. If this aircraft was not really an airliner it was still a civil aircraft. -- Lebob ( talk) 21:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I changed the text to an neutral, confirmed stance. I'm HIGHLY requesting an page lockdown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.175.73.50 ( talk) 16:27, 17 July 2014 (UTC) This one was me. MicBenSte ( talk) 16:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC) SORRY about deleting the entire article...I did delete it because I was surprised it was up so fast since there were so many unconfirmed reports (I know news sites were cited, but there were conflicts of information and to this moment there still are). Actually the first time I edited a wikipedia article...very surprised at how easy it was just to put anything you want in...won't edit it again! haha — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.122.200.146 ( talk) 20:33, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
280 people were onboard, plus 15 crew instead of the incorrectly listed 282. Could someone edit that in, as my account is not confirmed? http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-reportedly-shot-down-near-ukraine-russia-border-1.2709881 Anthonyliu ( talk) 22:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Removed "The Buk missile system belonged to the 53rd anti-air (AA) brigade from Kursk (Russia).", as it's not in the citation given. Deathmare ( talk) 12:44, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
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Reference 34 "Donetsk People’s Republic militia downs another Ukraine’s An-26 plane — eyewitnesses" has the wrong year. Change 2001 to 2014. "20:01" is the time of day on the referenced page. 65.216.171.130 ( talk) 17:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Why isn't Pan Am Flight 708 listed? It was suspected shot down over East Germany in 1966 as it approached Berlin Tegel Airport. 75.44.28.121 ( talk) 19:21, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the incident with Dag Hammarskjöld may qualify for a mention here. On 18 September his Douglas DC-6 crashed in Ndola, Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia). Hammarskjöld and fifteen others perished in the crash. In April 2014 it was reported that Jan van Risseghem shit it down as he had been heard on the radio saying: "I see a transport plane coming low. All the lights are on. I'm going down to make a run on it. Yes, it is the Transair DC-6. It's the plane,". For more details and sources to this see the Dag H Wikipedia page.
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In the section on MH17 (2014):
has been truncated after "of having shot down." This leaves an incomplete, unsourced statement which makes no sense. The words "[of having shot down] a military AN-26." and the footnote need to be restored. 2001:5C0:1000:A:0:0:0:74F ( talk) 21:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please add Malev flight 240 to this list. The Hungarian-registered Tu-154 was downed on Sep 30th 1975 while in a holding pattern waiting to land at Beirut; all 50 passengers and 10 crew died. There was no distress call sent out by the crew and the weather was good at the time. Both Israel and Syria have been suggested as possible suspects and The plane was supposed to have been carrying a PLO delegation (but the delegation did not board due to last minute schedule changes). The radar signature picked up at Akrotiri (Cyprus) appeared to match that of an F-4 Phantom (which was only used by the Israeli air-force at that time) and there are allegations that the missiles were AA side-winders (again these were only available to Israel) which struck the starboard fuselage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxzden ( talk • contribs) 05:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Any thoughts on including TWA 800 as a possible ? 212.121.210.45 ( talk) 13:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I have doubts whether the 1994 Iranian Air Force C-130 shootdown belongs here. It wasn't a civilian airliner, but owned and operated by the Iranian Air Force. Most people on plane however were civilians (embassy personnel) but is that enough to make it into this list? -- Pudeo ' 01:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
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Not sure why the 2015 Metrojet crash is listed here. Nearly all reputable sources, and even the main Wikipedia article indicate that it was brought down by a bomb placed aboard, not an external shootdown.
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"Severe wing damage resulted in a fire and complete loss of hydraulic flight control systems.[34] The pilots used differential engine thrust to fly the plane back to Baghdad, and were able to land without any injuries or major aircraft damage"
Does "without major aircraft damage" mean "except for the wing" or "without other major aircraft damage"? I wonder if this could be phrased better? Tvjames ( talk) 14:04, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Since the plane was able to land after the attack I moved this item to the section Near misses. User The Banner reverted this. Please explain this revert. Otto ( talk) 20:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Now that User:Flyingd is loosing the battle at the Dutch Wikipedia about his additions, he now starts adding the superfluous information here.
As this is a List of airliner shootdown incidents the information given should be about the actual incidents. But Flyingd added some prior incidents to List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#BOAC_Flight_777. In this case the text The same aircraft was attacked twice before on the same route on 15 November 1942 and 19 April 1943 (see the main article about BOAC Flight 777).
As this has nothing to do with the incident, I propose removal. The Banner talk 13:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
I have added items about the two near misses on the Ibis in the section with that name. Otto ( talk) 19:26, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Five items, three of them summarising large articles, about near misses of military attacks on civil aviation have been removed by The Banner without proper discussion. This has not been discussed in the paragraph about BOAC which handled just two of the five near misses. I advocate to restore the chapter Near misses. Eventually the name of the article and the introduction can be adapted. -- Otto ( talk) 18:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
The Banner deleted a whole chapter with 5 items of shootings on civil airplanes. Three of these items were part of this article since many years and are created by different users. I objected against this deletion and requested dispute resolution. To resolve the dispute I suggest to create a separate article about the removed chapter. The Banner is sabotaging my proposal by hiding the discussion under the misleading banner of "Irrelevant discussion". He is acting in bad faith. He doesn't want the dispute to be resolved but makes it worse.
Are there any objections if I make a new article with a list of "Near misses"? -- Otto ( talk) 08:47, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Motivation of the article: for passengers or employees of civil aviation a list of such incidents is of interest to get an impression of the intrinsic risks of choosing a flight or a job at a plane. -- Otto ( talk) 13:17, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
@Robotje:
* This list grew from a suggestion above on this talk page from Skullers (1 December 2007) to add the attempted shootdown in 2002 of Arkia. * At 16 July 2009 Baghdad DHL sttempted shootdown was added to the main list. * The Arkia attempt was added 26 April 2013 into the new chapter Near misses. * Hkeyser added 27 March 2018 the Finnair incident. * I added the two Ibis incidents a few days ago.
This list grows slowly, because fortunately these sort of incidents are rare. That doesn't make it useless to study them. This list facilitates that. -- Otto ( talk) 15:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
26 or 27 July 1953 "...an American F-86F Sabre pilot shot down a civilian Aeroflot Il-12 airliner killing all twenty-one persons aboard. The Americans and Soviets engaged in a protracted argument over whether the airliner was over North Korea or Chinawhen it was shot down. No one could disguise the fact that the decries came down in China." [1] Aldrich in turn cites By Any Means Necessary Page 5 by someone named Burrows.
This is also listed on Ilyushin Il-12
Let me see if I take a moment to add it. ''Paul, in Saudi'' ( talk) 08:39, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is no consensus to rescope the article at this time. ( non-admin closure) — Frayæ ( Talk/ Spjall) 09:51, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
List of airliner shootdown incidents → List of attacks with gunfire or missiles on civil aviation – To broaden the scope to all attacks of this type on civil aviation Otto ( talk) 12:26, 22 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 12:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Closure requested. The Banner talk 07:57, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
(This is copied from my Talk page Flyingd ( talk) 19:45, 8 June 2019 (UTC))
See Talk:List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#BOAC_Flight_777 where there is consensus that the earlier attacks are irrelevant. The Banner talk 19:10, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Please discuss the article here! Flyingd ( talk) 19:45, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
This is a meaningless comment in this discussion. Please explain to me why the yak40 and the dhl have an entry in this list and the previous attacks on the Ibis are not even allowed in a sidenote to the boac777 entry. As far as I am concerned the previous attacks on the Ibis both deserve a full entry in this list. Flyingd ( talk) 11:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
The consensus is that it is not relevant for the article List of airliner shootdown incidents to add shootings that did not result in an immediate shoot down or crash landing with plane loss, like the addition to section BOAC Flight 777 of Previous attacks on the same aircraft and route were on 15 November 1942 and 19 April 1943.
Is it relevant for the article List of airliner shootdown incidents to add shootings that did not result in an immediate shoot down or crash landing with plane loss, like the addition to section BOAC Flight 777 of Previous attacks on the same aircraft and route were on 15 November 1942 and 19 April 1943? The Banner talk 11:36, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
'Airliners' are operated by Airline companies that sell tickets for scheduled destinations to the public. I am not sure if the above aircraft qualify. Advise/opinions requested. Flyingd ( talk) 17:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
"an airliner is typically defined as an aeroplane intended for carrying multiple passengers or cargo in commercial service"(emphasis mine). In my view, carrying passengers or cargo in commercial service means that the persons or entities that own and operate the aircraft are not affiliated with the persons or cargo being transported (that is, the entity with employs the passengers or owns the cargo is not the entity flying the aircraft). Instead, I believe operating an aircraft in commercial service means that the owners/operators of the aircraft are transporting those passengers and/or cargo because they have been paid to do so (that is, they are providing a service as a commercial operation). If we work from this understanding, neither Polar 3 nor the DC-7 is an airliner (Polar 3 because it was owned and operated by the entity whose personnel were being transported, the DC-7 because it was not transporting persons or cargo from one place to another). The Zimex, I believe, was an airliner. I can't tell for the floatplane involved in the Peru incident.
I think a lot of discussion above is due to the title of the article. Using not well defined words like 'airliner' and 'shootdown'. Changing the title to 'List of attacks on commercial passenger aircraft' (or something similar) will also validate the inclusion of the few items that are now at discussion and makes (in my opinion) a more informative list. Feedback requested. Flyingd ( talk) 14:14, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Or 'List of attacks on airliners'? The scope would then cover attacks with damage after which airplanes landed successfully (only 4?) and the others that were not technically 'shot down', the Kweiling and the Chungking. Flyingd ( talk) 15:04, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
There are at least still four on the list under discussion, Kweilin, Chungking, YAK40 and DHL, that should not be on the list under the current title. I think they all should stay in the list, hence my proposal for a title change. If these four incidents have a place in the list then the previous BOAC Ibis attacks deserve a place too. You can not allow these four incidents in the list and at the same time disallow the BOAC Ibis attacks. Flyingd ( talk) 20:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
(
Summoned by bot) I am here because I received a notification to comment on the RfC here. I removed the RfC template as malformed, which
The Banner rightly reverted, although I can guarantee you that nobody is going to want to comment on that RfC when it is immediately followed by a massive chain of edits disputing its validity. I would suggest you close it and start a new one, although not right this second, because right now nobody seems to know exactly what the core issue in this discussion is, and we should figure that out first.
Currently, there is disagreement about whether six items should be included, two of which currently are not, four of which currently are. At the heart of these disagreements are two disagreements over definitions, one regarding what constitutes an "airliner" and one over what constitutes a "shootdown". I don't see the proposed name change as particularly salient, because I interpret it as a good-faith but misguided effort by an editor frustrated with the lack of progress in this discussion to resolve the question of definitions. And yes, I have read everything on this page, and I do not care about either the supposed stalking related to Dutch Wikipedia or the supposed tendentious editing. If I'm teasing out unexpressed questions here, there are clearly unresolved issues here on this page. Forgive my bluntness, but I do not wish to hear anything else about either of those issues right now. I hope all of you are willing to give this another good-faith effort.
Let's start with the simple question, since I can see what exactly the dispute there is about: does an incident where a plane is forced to land due to damage from being shot constitute a shootdown, or is the plane only actually "shot down" if it actually crashes, that is, the pilots had no control over when or where it did so?
Flyingd seems to not regard a plane that the pilots are able to control the landing as having truly been shot out of the sky. I believe everyone else who has participated so far believes that a shoot down is any time a plane lands earlier than planned because of being shot. Is this an accurate assessment of everyone's positions?
The messier question is what constitutes an "airliner". Frankly, I have no idea what constitutes an airliner versus any aeroplane, and I think that neither do half the people participating here.
The Banner suggested that there was a definition listed at
airliner, and I believe what he was referring to is this: "an aeroplane intended for carrying multiple passengers or cargo in commercial service"
. Is this what you were referring to? And if so, is this a definition everyone here can agree to work with, or do we think it should be something else?
I hope we can, at the moment, just discuss these two definitions, because we will not be able to decide what belongs in a list of airliners that were shot until we can agree what an airliner and a shootdown are. —
Compassionate727 (
T·
C)
21:09, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
"following two previous attempts"or
"the third such attack"or something similar to the end of the first sentence. I believe this information is indeed salient, for it indicates that the plane was not simply caught in the crossfire, or mistaken for a military aircraft, or some other kind of accident, but that the Germans attacked it intentionally and as part of a consistent policy. It should probably also be noted that the aircraft was flying a route that the British used for covert operations, and that passenger Leslie Howard was rumoured to be a spy, because that provides the motive for the attack. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 13:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
"it [mentioning the other two attacks] indicates that the plane was not simply caught … in some kind of accident, but that the Germans attacked it intentionally and as part of a consistent policy."They are relevant because they provide the reader with important context for understanding the attack that did shoot the plane down. If you are referring to something else, you will need clarify what.
Please explain to me why the yak40 and the dhl have an entry in this list and the previous attacks on the Ibis are not even allowed in a sidenote to the boac777 entry.
@
The Banner:
Consensus can change. Generally, if somebody raises new arguments about an issue, that is sufficient reason to reexamine the consensus. As far as I can tell, I am justifying mentioning the two in a way that nobody on this talk page has in the past. Please correct me if I am wrong.
So far, you have raised nearly every objection to my proposal except one that explains why adopting it would be detrimental to the article or the encyclopedia. Please try to focus on what really matters. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 18:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Any comments/suggestions what to do about the 4 main entries that were not 'shoot downs', DHL, Yak40, Kweilin and Chungking? As I stated before I think they should be listed but are erroneous under the current title. Flyingd ( talk) 23:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
I propose the removal of the following subjects:
The Banner talk 16:58, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Whether to include civilian aircraft apart from airliners is only half the question. Some of The Banner's suggested removals, namely the the 1992 Armenian plane incident and the 2003 Baghdad DHL incident, are instead about whether those incidents were actually shootdowns. If we disagree about this, it is because we disagree on what a shootdown is, and we need to define that term first. Personally, I'm inclined to derive the definition from the word: I'd define a shootdown as an incident where a plane is brought down (i.e. leaves the sky due to a chief factor other than the pilot's control) by being shot. Therefore, I would include an incident as a shootdown if the plane makes an emergency landing or a forced landing due to the damage. However, I know little about this subject, so this definition may be unconventional or there may simply be a better one. I'd like to hear other opinions. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 14:08, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm still not sure I'm satisfied with this definition. If we used it as proposed, we would need to remove the following entries: Kweilin incident, Korean Air Lines Flight 902, 1992 Shooting of Armenian plane by Azerbaijan military, and 2003 Baghdad DHL attempted shootdown incident. In particular, removing Koran Air Lines Flight 902 gives me pause, because the Wikipedia article and the list entry both describe it as having been "shot down" and then subsequently making an "emergency landing" (a term often used interchangeably with "crash landing", which poses problems for our binary distinction between a violent landing and crashing, whatever the tangible difference is—nobody has yet said). I'm just not convinced that our readers are well served by telling them: " Surprise! We've decided to make a list of strictly shootdowns, so we're going to bury that entry about the plane that was shot at, forced to recklessly land on the water, and subsequently sunk, killing almost everyone aboard (the Kweilin incident)". I mean, the premise is very similar: persons with weapons shoot at a defenseless civilian aircraft, causing the plane to descend from the air dangerously and the deaths of innocent persons (sometimes most of them). Isn't that close enough?
Perhaps we could have a separate section at the bottom on attempted shootdowns? I understand that they don't quite belong, but lists like this exist for the sake of comprehensiveness: readers come here either because they are trying to find a specific incident with only a small detail, or because they want to see every single instance of that incident. As I see it, excluding the Korean Air Lines Flight 902 entry solely because it landed without casualties serves neither the first type of reader, trying to find this entry using only the memory that it involved the Soviet military and a Korean airliner, nor the second type, whose interests are broad enough that he will likely still find the incident interesting. I would make a separate list, but there simply aren't enough items: I would be told by NPP to merge it back. If we eventually end up with a large list of attempts, we can create a separate list then. In the meantime, this would also help us avoid giving the false impression that all attempts to shoot an aircraft result in it being destroyed.
Alternatively, if someone can cogently argue that there is a meaningful difference between a crash and a violent, immediate, and uncontrolled (or poorly controlled) landing (that is, beyond simply which category we put in: one which affects how we as persons understand the incident), I'll drop this point. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 14:21, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Could you please stop adding the non-shootdown attacks on the Ibis. How many times do we have to reach consensus that those attacks are irrelevant for this article before you understand that? The Banner talk 18:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I have filed a case on AN/I regarding your relentless pushing and failure of WP:CIR and I am asking for a topic ban. The Banner talk 16:50, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
How about if we abandon the title change discussion and add something like this (or similar) to the text directly under the title?: "A few airliners were attacked and managed to crash-land or successfully land at the first opportunity with attack damage, these are also listed." Flyingd ( talk) 14:14, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Otto ( talk) 19:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)"the actual decision is that Flyingd and Robotje are both topic banned from this article and from similar issues in other aircraft articles at the enWP for the next twelve months, including the talk pages . The Banner is probably under the impression that he is just reporting the dispute, not participating in it, but in fairness it would be better if he did not participate either, so I'm giving a twelve month topic ban restriction, but for this article only, and not including the talk page." DGG (talk) 23:24, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
I propose to restore Webmap application of airliner shootdown incidents developed by ADERSIM, York University. Main reason: it provides a map with many of the incidents mentioned in this list and is as such a usefull addition for the reader. I suggest to add it to a new section External links. Otto ( talk) 11:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Otto ( talk) 15:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Should Air France Flight 1611 be included on this list? The cause of the crash is still disputed to this day like Itavia Flight 870 but there are allegations of a shootdown and a coverup by the French government. StellarHalo ( talk) 06:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
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Nice work here thus far. I was wondering, what about cases where a shootdown is alledged? I'm not talking conspiracy theories here, but cases where there is serious likelyhood the aircraft was in fact shot down. To take two examples I have worked on, the 2007 Balad aircraft crash and the 2007 Mogadishu TransAVIAexport Airlines Il-76 crash were both, to my mind, almost certainly shootdowns. In the later, Belarussian officials even reacted openly as to an act of terrorism, and instigated a terrorist investigation. What sort of guidlines can we come up with? Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 21:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Should this include the 2002 "narrow miss" [1] of an Arkia plane taking off in Kenya? That incident resulted in missile defense install on israeli civilian planes.. Skullers 02:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
not sure if it counts as an airliner. Any thoughts? Egg Centric ( talk) 12:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
I have removed a reference to an alleged shootdown of an ethiopian airplane by israel in the Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114 entry. I have also removed it in the main article for that incident. It was added to the main article in February 2009 without a source and without explanation in the edit summary. No source has been provided and I cannot find any reference online to the alleged incident that does not apparently stem from the (incorrect) wikipedia entry. - Redshield3 ( talk) 15:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I removed this section from the list as it doesn't belong to it. A military helicopter is clearly not an airliner. Phoenix ICR ( talk) 16:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I am wondering whether this event should not be included into the list. If this aircraft was not really an airliner it was still a civil aircraft. -- Lebob ( talk) 21:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I changed the text to an neutral, confirmed stance. I'm HIGHLY requesting an page lockdown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.175.73.50 ( talk) 16:27, 17 July 2014 (UTC) This one was me. MicBenSte ( talk) 16:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC) SORRY about deleting the entire article...I did delete it because I was surprised it was up so fast since there were so many unconfirmed reports (I know news sites were cited, but there were conflicts of information and to this moment there still are). Actually the first time I edited a wikipedia article...very surprised at how easy it was just to put anything you want in...won't edit it again! haha — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.122.200.146 ( talk) 20:33, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
280 people were onboard, plus 15 crew instead of the incorrectly listed 282. Could someone edit that in, as my account is not confirmed? http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-reportedly-shot-down-near-ukraine-russia-border-1.2709881 Anthonyliu ( talk) 22:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Removed "The Buk missile system belonged to the 53rd anti-air (AA) brigade from Kursk (Russia).", as it's not in the citation given. Deathmare ( talk) 12:44, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
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Reference 34 "Donetsk People’s Republic militia downs another Ukraine’s An-26 plane — eyewitnesses" has the wrong year. Change 2001 to 2014. "20:01" is the time of day on the referenced page. 65.216.171.130 ( talk) 17:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Why isn't Pan Am Flight 708 listed? It was suspected shot down over East Germany in 1966 as it approached Berlin Tegel Airport. 75.44.28.121 ( talk) 19:21, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the incident with Dag Hammarskjöld may qualify for a mention here. On 18 September his Douglas DC-6 crashed in Ndola, Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia). Hammarskjöld and fifteen others perished in the crash. In April 2014 it was reported that Jan van Risseghem shit it down as he had been heard on the radio saying: "I see a transport plane coming low. All the lights are on. I'm going down to make a run on it. Yes, it is the Transair DC-6. It's the plane,". For more details and sources to this see the Dag H Wikipedia page.
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In the section on MH17 (2014):
has been truncated after "of having shot down." This leaves an incomplete, unsourced statement which makes no sense. The words "[of having shot down] a military AN-26." and the footnote need to be restored. 2001:5C0:1000:A:0:0:0:74F ( talk) 21:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please add Malev flight 240 to this list. The Hungarian-registered Tu-154 was downed on Sep 30th 1975 while in a holding pattern waiting to land at Beirut; all 50 passengers and 10 crew died. There was no distress call sent out by the crew and the weather was good at the time. Both Israel and Syria have been suggested as possible suspects and The plane was supposed to have been carrying a PLO delegation (but the delegation did not board due to last minute schedule changes). The radar signature picked up at Akrotiri (Cyprus) appeared to match that of an F-4 Phantom (which was only used by the Israeli air-force at that time) and there are allegations that the missiles were AA side-winders (again these were only available to Israel) which struck the starboard fuselage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxzden ( talk • contribs) 05:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Any thoughts on including TWA 800 as a possible ? 212.121.210.45 ( talk) 13:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I have doubts whether the 1994 Iranian Air Force C-130 shootdown belongs here. It wasn't a civilian airliner, but owned and operated by the Iranian Air Force. Most people on plane however were civilians (embassy personnel) but is that enough to make it into this list? -- Pudeo ' 01:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
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Not sure why the 2015 Metrojet crash is listed here. Nearly all reputable sources, and even the main Wikipedia article indicate that it was brought down by a bomb placed aboard, not an external shootdown.
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"Severe wing damage resulted in a fire and complete loss of hydraulic flight control systems.[34] The pilots used differential engine thrust to fly the plane back to Baghdad, and were able to land without any injuries or major aircraft damage"
Does "without major aircraft damage" mean "except for the wing" or "without other major aircraft damage"? I wonder if this could be phrased better? Tvjames ( talk) 14:04, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Since the plane was able to land after the attack I moved this item to the section Near misses. User The Banner reverted this. Please explain this revert. Otto ( talk) 20:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Now that User:Flyingd is loosing the battle at the Dutch Wikipedia about his additions, he now starts adding the superfluous information here.
As this is a List of airliner shootdown incidents the information given should be about the actual incidents. But Flyingd added some prior incidents to List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#BOAC_Flight_777. In this case the text The same aircraft was attacked twice before on the same route on 15 November 1942 and 19 April 1943 (see the main article about BOAC Flight 777).
As this has nothing to do with the incident, I propose removal. The Banner talk 13:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
I have added items about the two near misses on the Ibis in the section with that name. Otto ( talk) 19:26, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Five items, three of them summarising large articles, about near misses of military attacks on civil aviation have been removed by The Banner without proper discussion. This has not been discussed in the paragraph about BOAC which handled just two of the five near misses. I advocate to restore the chapter Near misses. Eventually the name of the article and the introduction can be adapted. -- Otto ( talk) 18:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
The Banner deleted a whole chapter with 5 items of shootings on civil airplanes. Three of these items were part of this article since many years and are created by different users. I objected against this deletion and requested dispute resolution. To resolve the dispute I suggest to create a separate article about the removed chapter. The Banner is sabotaging my proposal by hiding the discussion under the misleading banner of "Irrelevant discussion". He is acting in bad faith. He doesn't want the dispute to be resolved but makes it worse.
Are there any objections if I make a new article with a list of "Near misses"? -- Otto ( talk) 08:47, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Motivation of the article: for passengers or employees of civil aviation a list of such incidents is of interest to get an impression of the intrinsic risks of choosing a flight or a job at a plane. -- Otto ( talk) 13:17, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
@Robotje:
* This list grew from a suggestion above on this talk page from Skullers (1 December 2007) to add the attempted shootdown in 2002 of Arkia. * At 16 July 2009 Baghdad DHL sttempted shootdown was added to the main list. * The Arkia attempt was added 26 April 2013 into the new chapter Near misses. * Hkeyser added 27 March 2018 the Finnair incident. * I added the two Ibis incidents a few days ago.
This list grows slowly, because fortunately these sort of incidents are rare. That doesn't make it useless to study them. This list facilitates that. -- Otto ( talk) 15:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
26 or 27 July 1953 "...an American F-86F Sabre pilot shot down a civilian Aeroflot Il-12 airliner killing all twenty-one persons aboard. The Americans and Soviets engaged in a protracted argument over whether the airliner was over North Korea or Chinawhen it was shot down. No one could disguise the fact that the decries came down in China." [1] Aldrich in turn cites By Any Means Necessary Page 5 by someone named Burrows.
This is also listed on Ilyushin Il-12
Let me see if I take a moment to add it. ''Paul, in Saudi'' ( talk) 08:39, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is no consensus to rescope the article at this time. ( non-admin closure) — Frayæ ( Talk/ Spjall) 09:51, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
List of airliner shootdown incidents → List of attacks with gunfire or missiles on civil aviation – To broaden the scope to all attacks of this type on civil aviation Otto ( talk) 12:26, 22 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 12:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Closure requested. The Banner talk 07:57, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
(This is copied from my Talk page Flyingd ( talk) 19:45, 8 June 2019 (UTC))
See Talk:List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents#BOAC_Flight_777 where there is consensus that the earlier attacks are irrelevant. The Banner talk 19:10, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Please discuss the article here! Flyingd ( talk) 19:45, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
This is a meaningless comment in this discussion. Please explain to me why the yak40 and the dhl have an entry in this list and the previous attacks on the Ibis are not even allowed in a sidenote to the boac777 entry. As far as I am concerned the previous attacks on the Ibis both deserve a full entry in this list. Flyingd ( talk) 11:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
The consensus is that it is not relevant for the article List of airliner shootdown incidents to add shootings that did not result in an immediate shoot down or crash landing with plane loss, like the addition to section BOAC Flight 777 of Previous attacks on the same aircraft and route were on 15 November 1942 and 19 April 1943.
Is it relevant for the article List of airliner shootdown incidents to add shootings that did not result in an immediate shoot down or crash landing with plane loss, like the addition to section BOAC Flight 777 of Previous attacks on the same aircraft and route were on 15 November 1942 and 19 April 1943? The Banner talk 11:36, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
'Airliners' are operated by Airline companies that sell tickets for scheduled destinations to the public. I am not sure if the above aircraft qualify. Advise/opinions requested. Flyingd ( talk) 17:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
"an airliner is typically defined as an aeroplane intended for carrying multiple passengers or cargo in commercial service"(emphasis mine). In my view, carrying passengers or cargo in commercial service means that the persons or entities that own and operate the aircraft are not affiliated with the persons or cargo being transported (that is, the entity with employs the passengers or owns the cargo is not the entity flying the aircraft). Instead, I believe operating an aircraft in commercial service means that the owners/operators of the aircraft are transporting those passengers and/or cargo because they have been paid to do so (that is, they are providing a service as a commercial operation). If we work from this understanding, neither Polar 3 nor the DC-7 is an airliner (Polar 3 because it was owned and operated by the entity whose personnel were being transported, the DC-7 because it was not transporting persons or cargo from one place to another). The Zimex, I believe, was an airliner. I can't tell for the floatplane involved in the Peru incident.
I think a lot of discussion above is due to the title of the article. Using not well defined words like 'airliner' and 'shootdown'. Changing the title to 'List of attacks on commercial passenger aircraft' (or something similar) will also validate the inclusion of the few items that are now at discussion and makes (in my opinion) a more informative list. Feedback requested. Flyingd ( talk) 14:14, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Or 'List of attacks on airliners'? The scope would then cover attacks with damage after which airplanes landed successfully (only 4?) and the others that were not technically 'shot down', the Kweiling and the Chungking. Flyingd ( talk) 15:04, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
There are at least still four on the list under discussion, Kweilin, Chungking, YAK40 and DHL, that should not be on the list under the current title. I think they all should stay in the list, hence my proposal for a title change. If these four incidents have a place in the list then the previous BOAC Ibis attacks deserve a place too. You can not allow these four incidents in the list and at the same time disallow the BOAC Ibis attacks. Flyingd ( talk) 20:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
(
Summoned by bot) I am here because I received a notification to comment on the RfC here. I removed the RfC template as malformed, which
The Banner rightly reverted, although I can guarantee you that nobody is going to want to comment on that RfC when it is immediately followed by a massive chain of edits disputing its validity. I would suggest you close it and start a new one, although not right this second, because right now nobody seems to know exactly what the core issue in this discussion is, and we should figure that out first.
Currently, there is disagreement about whether six items should be included, two of which currently are not, four of which currently are. At the heart of these disagreements are two disagreements over definitions, one regarding what constitutes an "airliner" and one over what constitutes a "shootdown". I don't see the proposed name change as particularly salient, because I interpret it as a good-faith but misguided effort by an editor frustrated with the lack of progress in this discussion to resolve the question of definitions. And yes, I have read everything on this page, and I do not care about either the supposed stalking related to Dutch Wikipedia or the supposed tendentious editing. If I'm teasing out unexpressed questions here, there are clearly unresolved issues here on this page. Forgive my bluntness, but I do not wish to hear anything else about either of those issues right now. I hope all of you are willing to give this another good-faith effort.
Let's start with the simple question, since I can see what exactly the dispute there is about: does an incident where a plane is forced to land due to damage from being shot constitute a shootdown, or is the plane only actually "shot down" if it actually crashes, that is, the pilots had no control over when or where it did so?
Flyingd seems to not regard a plane that the pilots are able to control the landing as having truly been shot out of the sky. I believe everyone else who has participated so far believes that a shoot down is any time a plane lands earlier than planned because of being shot. Is this an accurate assessment of everyone's positions?
The messier question is what constitutes an "airliner". Frankly, I have no idea what constitutes an airliner versus any aeroplane, and I think that neither do half the people participating here.
The Banner suggested that there was a definition listed at
airliner, and I believe what he was referring to is this: "an aeroplane intended for carrying multiple passengers or cargo in commercial service"
. Is this what you were referring to? And if so, is this a definition everyone here can agree to work with, or do we think it should be something else?
I hope we can, at the moment, just discuss these two definitions, because we will not be able to decide what belongs in a list of airliners that were shot until we can agree what an airliner and a shootdown are. —
Compassionate727 (
T·
C)
21:09, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
"following two previous attempts"or
"the third such attack"or something similar to the end of the first sentence. I believe this information is indeed salient, for it indicates that the plane was not simply caught in the crossfire, or mistaken for a military aircraft, or some other kind of accident, but that the Germans attacked it intentionally and as part of a consistent policy. It should probably also be noted that the aircraft was flying a route that the British used for covert operations, and that passenger Leslie Howard was rumoured to be a spy, because that provides the motive for the attack. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 13:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
"it [mentioning the other two attacks] indicates that the plane was not simply caught … in some kind of accident, but that the Germans attacked it intentionally and as part of a consistent policy."They are relevant because they provide the reader with important context for understanding the attack that did shoot the plane down. If you are referring to something else, you will need clarify what.
Please explain to me why the yak40 and the dhl have an entry in this list and the previous attacks on the Ibis are not even allowed in a sidenote to the boac777 entry.
@
The Banner:
Consensus can change. Generally, if somebody raises new arguments about an issue, that is sufficient reason to reexamine the consensus. As far as I can tell, I am justifying mentioning the two in a way that nobody on this talk page has in the past. Please correct me if I am wrong.
So far, you have raised nearly every objection to my proposal except one that explains why adopting it would be detrimental to the article or the encyclopedia. Please try to focus on what really matters. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 18:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Any comments/suggestions what to do about the 4 main entries that were not 'shoot downs', DHL, Yak40, Kweilin and Chungking? As I stated before I think they should be listed but are erroneous under the current title. Flyingd ( talk) 23:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
I propose the removal of the following subjects:
The Banner talk 16:58, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Whether to include civilian aircraft apart from airliners is only half the question. Some of The Banner's suggested removals, namely the the 1992 Armenian plane incident and the 2003 Baghdad DHL incident, are instead about whether those incidents were actually shootdowns. If we disagree about this, it is because we disagree on what a shootdown is, and we need to define that term first. Personally, I'm inclined to derive the definition from the word: I'd define a shootdown as an incident where a plane is brought down (i.e. leaves the sky due to a chief factor other than the pilot's control) by being shot. Therefore, I would include an incident as a shootdown if the plane makes an emergency landing or a forced landing due to the damage. However, I know little about this subject, so this definition may be unconventional or there may simply be a better one. I'd like to hear other opinions. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 14:08, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm still not sure I'm satisfied with this definition. If we used it as proposed, we would need to remove the following entries: Kweilin incident, Korean Air Lines Flight 902, 1992 Shooting of Armenian plane by Azerbaijan military, and 2003 Baghdad DHL attempted shootdown incident. In particular, removing Koran Air Lines Flight 902 gives me pause, because the Wikipedia article and the list entry both describe it as having been "shot down" and then subsequently making an "emergency landing" (a term often used interchangeably with "crash landing", which poses problems for our binary distinction between a violent landing and crashing, whatever the tangible difference is—nobody has yet said). I'm just not convinced that our readers are well served by telling them: " Surprise! We've decided to make a list of strictly shootdowns, so we're going to bury that entry about the plane that was shot at, forced to recklessly land on the water, and subsequently sunk, killing almost everyone aboard (the Kweilin incident)". I mean, the premise is very similar: persons with weapons shoot at a defenseless civilian aircraft, causing the plane to descend from the air dangerously and the deaths of innocent persons (sometimes most of them). Isn't that close enough?
Perhaps we could have a separate section at the bottom on attempted shootdowns? I understand that they don't quite belong, but lists like this exist for the sake of comprehensiveness: readers come here either because they are trying to find a specific incident with only a small detail, or because they want to see every single instance of that incident. As I see it, excluding the Korean Air Lines Flight 902 entry solely because it landed without casualties serves neither the first type of reader, trying to find this entry using only the memory that it involved the Soviet military and a Korean airliner, nor the second type, whose interests are broad enough that he will likely still find the incident interesting. I would make a separate list, but there simply aren't enough items: I would be told by NPP to merge it back. If we eventually end up with a large list of attempts, we can create a separate list then. In the meantime, this would also help us avoid giving the false impression that all attempts to shoot an aircraft result in it being destroyed.
Alternatively, if someone can cogently argue that there is a meaningful difference between a crash and a violent, immediate, and uncontrolled (or poorly controlled) landing (that is, beyond simply which category we put in: one which affects how we as persons understand the incident), I'll drop this point. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 14:21, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Could you please stop adding the non-shootdown attacks on the Ibis. How many times do we have to reach consensus that those attacks are irrelevant for this article before you understand that? The Banner talk 18:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I have filed a case on AN/I regarding your relentless pushing and failure of WP:CIR and I am asking for a topic ban. The Banner talk 16:50, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
How about if we abandon the title change discussion and add something like this (or similar) to the text directly under the title?: "A few airliners were attacked and managed to crash-land or successfully land at the first opportunity with attack damage, these are also listed." Flyingd ( talk) 14:14, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Otto ( talk) 19:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)"the actual decision is that Flyingd and Robotje are both topic banned from this article and from similar issues in other aircraft articles at the enWP for the next twelve months, including the talk pages . The Banner is probably under the impression that he is just reporting the dispute, not participating in it, but in fairness it would be better if he did not participate either, so I'm giving a twelve month topic ban restriction, but for this article only, and not including the talk page." DGG (talk) 23:24, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
I propose to restore Webmap application of airliner shootdown incidents developed by ADERSIM, York University. Main reason: it provides a map with many of the incidents mentioned in this list and is as such a usefull addition for the reader. I suggest to add it to a new section External links. Otto ( talk) 11:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Otto ( talk) 15:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Should Air France Flight 1611 be included on this list? The cause of the crash is still disputed to this day like Itavia Flight 870 but there are allegations of a shootdown and a coverup by the French government. StellarHalo ( talk) 06:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)