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I'm still not happy with excluding ridership on rapid transit portions of light rail systems. Light rail is light rail because (generally) the rail is of lighter weight (lbs/yd) than "real" railroads, including heavy rail systems, and because (generally) light rail equipment is smaller than other services and can (often) run in the street in mixed traffic.
Rapid transit, OTOH, is about right-of-way. Ask Prof Vuchic if you don't believe me. The tunnels on the T's Green Line, SEPTA's subway-surface lines, and wherever other light rail systems have segregated rights-of-way, are certainly rapid transit but they are not "heavy rail".
Yet "note 1" says "heavy rail rapid transit/metro" - NOT THE SAME!
Yes, I see the weasel words in the first paragraph because I wrote them, and yes, we could go on allllllllllllll decade about the proper taxonomy of the different modes (there is, well was, a USENET discussion about this that went on from 1992 until 2007 when the last of the participants finally died - I believe it was an offshoot of the LOOT RAIL thread which I think is still going) but this isn't that. This is recognizing that whether you get on or get off a Green Line trolley somewhere out on Beacon St or at Park St in the subway, you're on a light rail system. When the extensions up to Summavil and Meffa are completed, are you seriously going to suggest that we will count people that get on at Union Square and get off at Park St but not count them on the way home because they boarded in the subway? Of course not. -- plaws ( talk) 19:31, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
The Muni Metro agency was created in 1980. But the rail system began operating (as the San Francisco Municipal Railway) in 1912. Claiming that the system began in 1980 (with the creation of the agency) is a bit like claiming the founding date of SEPTA (1963) for the founding date of the Subway-Surface lines, which began operations in 1892. http://www.streetcar.org/brief-history/ /info/en/?search=Muni_Metro /info/en/?search=SEPTA_Subway%E2%80%93Surface_Trolley_Lines /info/en/?search=SEPTA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theblindsage ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
if the San Francisco cable car system started operation in 1878, then Muni (in its current form with the current light rail lines) started service in 1912. "Also included are those urban streetcar/trolley systems that are providing regular public transit service (i.e. operating year-round and at least five days/week)." -- Mjdestroyerofworlds ( talk) 21:13, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Some potential LRT systems, all of which are rather new and are not on this table. JCKotrba ( talk) 15:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Atlanta Streetcar - Opened in December 2014 and ridership statistics have presumably been released, although I don't actually KNOW that they have for any of these, I am merely making suggestions. Wikipedia page - Atlanta Streetcar
Charlotte CityLYNX Gold Line- Streetcars in Charlotte which just opened in 2015. In this article, the "Charlotte Area Transit System: Blue Line" is listed. Could the CityLYNX gold line be added to this or would it be preferred to have separate entries in the table and statistics for them? Wikipedia page - CityLynx Gold Line
Dallas Streetcar - New streetcars which are operated separately from the DART system. They are owned by the city and operated by DART, as far as I know. Opened in April of 2015 and the line is 1.6 miles. Wikipedia page - Dallas Streetcar
Salt Lake City S-Line Streetcar - opened in 2013. Unsure if this would be considered part of TRAX or get its own entry into the table. Wikipedia page - S Line (UTA)
Missing Streetcar lines: Fort Smith, Dallas McKinney Milwaukee Oklahoma City, Portland, Salt Lake City, Seattle. Also missing: Airtrain JFK — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.144.155.141 ( talk) 05:33, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
People movers that are in downtown areas are very similar to a light rail system, they're just elevated. The Miami Metromover, interestingly enough, now hitting about 35,000 daily riders, and being only 4.4 miles, which is a generous measurement given the amount of overlap, would come out to 8,000 riders per mile, which would be the highest of any system on this list. The Detroit People Mover is mentioned on the talk page, regarding it's not being included. That and the Jacksonville Skyway, are basically the three downtown people movers in the country, but the latter two are highly underutilized. B137 ( talk) 07:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I am really quite sure that the S-Line numbers are are included in APTA's numbers for TRAX, because APTA breaks down its data by operating agency and TRAX and the S-Line are both light rail (by APTA's definitions) operated by the UTA. I think that by putting a separate S-Line entry in the table we're duplicating some riders.
Similarly, the CityLynx Gold Line is operated by CATS just like the Blue Line, so I don't see why we have the Charlotte entry specify that the numbers are only for the Blue Line. (We don't have a separate Gold Line entry, at least).
I'm going to make these changes in the next few days unless someone objects to them. -- Jfruh ( talk) 19:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
We had previously discussed splitting the Seattle and Tacoma numbers if we could find good data. Despite the fact that the two systems have the same operator & the shared "Link" branding, I think it's appropriate to split them because they're two separate lines 25 miles apart and use different vehicles.
Anyway, I found this info on the Sound Transit site:
This document counts ridership in terms of "Boardings." Does this represent the same thing being counted as "Unlinked passenger trips" in the APTA numbers? My understanding is so -- an unlinked passenger trip is one person getting on one vehicle, and that fairly intuitively is what boarding means. The fact that these are both one-line systems means we wouldn't have to worry about possible differing interpretations of transferring lines. Anyway, I'm inclined to use these numbers but I wanted to post them there first in case there's something I'm missing. -- Jfruh ( talk) 15:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
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I was just peeking at the Q3 APTA numbers because I was curious about how the ridership for the eBART extension to BART was doing. Weirdly, eBART isn't included in the main lists at the beginning of the report; but in the section where there are lists for different modes for each participating agency, there's a commuter rail mode listed under the San Francisco Bay Area RTD, which is BART's operating agency. There's nothing this could be other than eBART, but Wikipedia generally follows media reports by referring to the eBART extension as light rail. Admittedly it's an edge case, similar to the SPRINTER (which APTA lists under light rail) and the Austin MetroRail (which APTA lists under commuter rail). My instinct is to still list its ridership numbers here rather than on List of United States commuter rail systems by ridership, but I thought I'd pose the question here so we can get a consensus before the Q4 numbers come out. -- Jfruh ( talk) 17:25, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Hi all! I've updated this page with the Q4 2018 numbers, mostly from APTA except where marked. A few notes:
-- Jfruh ( talk) 22:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:List of United States rapid transit systems by ridership § 2021 Ridership. Discussion about when to update to more current ridership figures is directly relevant to this article, and related articles like it. --
IJBall (
contribs •
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18:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
APTA's Q4 2022 figures are apparently out now, if anyone wants to update this article. -- IJBall ( contribs • talk) 17:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of United States commuter rail systems by ridership which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 18:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Should this be listed? NE2 18:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 29 December 2010. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | On 8 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of United States light rail systems by ridership to List of United States light rail systems. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Index
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 7 sections are present. |
I'm still not happy with excluding ridership on rapid transit portions of light rail systems. Light rail is light rail because (generally) the rail is of lighter weight (lbs/yd) than "real" railroads, including heavy rail systems, and because (generally) light rail equipment is smaller than other services and can (often) run in the street in mixed traffic.
Rapid transit, OTOH, is about right-of-way. Ask Prof Vuchic if you don't believe me. The tunnels on the T's Green Line, SEPTA's subway-surface lines, and wherever other light rail systems have segregated rights-of-way, are certainly rapid transit but they are not "heavy rail".
Yet "note 1" says "heavy rail rapid transit/metro" - NOT THE SAME!
Yes, I see the weasel words in the first paragraph because I wrote them, and yes, we could go on allllllllllllll decade about the proper taxonomy of the different modes (there is, well was, a USENET discussion about this that went on from 1992 until 2007 when the last of the participants finally died - I believe it was an offshoot of the LOOT RAIL thread which I think is still going) but this isn't that. This is recognizing that whether you get on or get off a Green Line trolley somewhere out on Beacon St or at Park St in the subway, you're on a light rail system. When the extensions up to Summavil and Meffa are completed, are you seriously going to suggest that we will count people that get on at Union Square and get off at Park St but not count them on the way home because they boarded in the subway? Of course not. -- plaws ( talk) 19:31, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
The Muni Metro agency was created in 1980. But the rail system began operating (as the San Francisco Municipal Railway) in 1912. Claiming that the system began in 1980 (with the creation of the agency) is a bit like claiming the founding date of SEPTA (1963) for the founding date of the Subway-Surface lines, which began operations in 1892. http://www.streetcar.org/brief-history/ /info/en/?search=Muni_Metro /info/en/?search=SEPTA_Subway%E2%80%93Surface_Trolley_Lines /info/en/?search=SEPTA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theblindsage ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
if the San Francisco cable car system started operation in 1878, then Muni (in its current form with the current light rail lines) started service in 1912. "Also included are those urban streetcar/trolley systems that are providing regular public transit service (i.e. operating year-round and at least five days/week)." -- Mjdestroyerofworlds ( talk) 21:13, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Some potential LRT systems, all of which are rather new and are not on this table. JCKotrba ( talk) 15:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Atlanta Streetcar - Opened in December 2014 and ridership statistics have presumably been released, although I don't actually KNOW that they have for any of these, I am merely making suggestions. Wikipedia page - Atlanta Streetcar
Charlotte CityLYNX Gold Line- Streetcars in Charlotte which just opened in 2015. In this article, the "Charlotte Area Transit System: Blue Line" is listed. Could the CityLYNX gold line be added to this or would it be preferred to have separate entries in the table and statistics for them? Wikipedia page - CityLynx Gold Line
Dallas Streetcar - New streetcars which are operated separately from the DART system. They are owned by the city and operated by DART, as far as I know. Opened in April of 2015 and the line is 1.6 miles. Wikipedia page - Dallas Streetcar
Salt Lake City S-Line Streetcar - opened in 2013. Unsure if this would be considered part of TRAX or get its own entry into the table. Wikipedia page - S Line (UTA)
Missing Streetcar lines: Fort Smith, Dallas McKinney Milwaukee Oklahoma City, Portland, Salt Lake City, Seattle. Also missing: Airtrain JFK — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.144.155.141 ( talk) 05:33, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
People movers that are in downtown areas are very similar to a light rail system, they're just elevated. The Miami Metromover, interestingly enough, now hitting about 35,000 daily riders, and being only 4.4 miles, which is a generous measurement given the amount of overlap, would come out to 8,000 riders per mile, which would be the highest of any system on this list. The Detroit People Mover is mentioned on the talk page, regarding it's not being included. That and the Jacksonville Skyway, are basically the three downtown people movers in the country, but the latter two are highly underutilized. B137 ( talk) 07:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I am really quite sure that the S-Line numbers are are included in APTA's numbers for TRAX, because APTA breaks down its data by operating agency and TRAX and the S-Line are both light rail (by APTA's definitions) operated by the UTA. I think that by putting a separate S-Line entry in the table we're duplicating some riders.
Similarly, the CityLynx Gold Line is operated by CATS just like the Blue Line, so I don't see why we have the Charlotte entry specify that the numbers are only for the Blue Line. (We don't have a separate Gold Line entry, at least).
I'm going to make these changes in the next few days unless someone objects to them. -- Jfruh ( talk) 19:23, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
We had previously discussed splitting the Seattle and Tacoma numbers if we could find good data. Despite the fact that the two systems have the same operator & the shared "Link" branding, I think it's appropriate to split them because they're two separate lines 25 miles apart and use different vehicles.
Anyway, I found this info on the Sound Transit site:
This document counts ridership in terms of "Boardings." Does this represent the same thing being counted as "Unlinked passenger trips" in the APTA numbers? My understanding is so -- an unlinked passenger trip is one person getting on one vehicle, and that fairly intuitively is what boarding means. The fact that these are both one-line systems means we wouldn't have to worry about possible differing interpretations of transferring lines. Anyway, I'm inclined to use these numbers but I wanted to post them there first in case there's something I'm missing. -- Jfruh ( talk) 15:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
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I was just peeking at the Q3 APTA numbers because I was curious about how the ridership for the eBART extension to BART was doing. Weirdly, eBART isn't included in the main lists at the beginning of the report; but in the section where there are lists for different modes for each participating agency, there's a commuter rail mode listed under the San Francisco Bay Area RTD, which is BART's operating agency. There's nothing this could be other than eBART, but Wikipedia generally follows media reports by referring to the eBART extension as light rail. Admittedly it's an edge case, similar to the SPRINTER (which APTA lists under light rail) and the Austin MetroRail (which APTA lists under commuter rail). My instinct is to still list its ridership numbers here rather than on List of United States commuter rail systems by ridership, but I thought I'd pose the question here so we can get a consensus before the Q4 numbers come out. -- Jfruh ( talk) 17:25, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Hi all! I've updated this page with the Q4 2018 numbers, mostly from APTA except where marked. A few notes:
-- Jfruh ( talk) 22:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:List of United States rapid transit systems by ridership § 2021 Ridership. Discussion about when to update to more current ridership figures is directly relevant to this article, and related articles like it. --
IJBall (
contribs •
talk)
18:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
APTA's Q4 2022 figures are apparently out now, if anyone wants to update this article. -- IJBall ( contribs • talk) 17:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of United States commuter rail systems by ridership which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 18:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Should this be listed? NE2 18:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)