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Archive 1 |
I put the moving template in there so you could discuss where it really belongs, because a question by User:Quadell generated no response. And I think this question is worth your attention. Don't get angry, no harm intended. Renata3 05:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed the moving template as the general feeling seems to be that it is in the correct location. My additional opinion is that since the Wikipedia is not paper the benefit of the doubt should be given to entries like this one (and to quotes in entries as well). I wonder what Renata3 or User:Quadell thinks would be gained from removing this information from the Wikipedia. Michael L. Kaufman 18:48, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
PLEASE' everybody: Do not use computers to sort the entries. The last computer-sorting already introduced three errors: "Ex Cathedra" and "Ex Deo" before "Ex animo" (Upper/lower case problem) and "
Ab Urbe... sorted by "Annus" rather than "Ab". Also when the "Q" section was processed three entries were truncated because of improper line splicing before the sorting. And the C section had extra blanks inserted at the end of every header, which were not visible on the page but caused the whole section to turn up in the "diff", thus making it harder to check the changes.
The entries are presently sorted, with no more than two or three errors if any. It will take much less effort to check the order visually and fix any errors by hand, than to do it by computer. Besides, even if you use the computer you MUST check the result afterwards, since it is all too easy to make mistakes.
Jorge Stolfi 21:24, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
(Trimmed by
JimD 21:29, 2004 May 17 (UTC). Left Jorge's caveat here [in perpetuity??])
I suggest to make wiki pages for all entries in this list. When doing so I expect to often find that there already is an article with this title and I shall then wikify the entry in the list. If, however, there is no article yet, I shall put a redirect pointing to the list. Any objections? Otherwise I'll do it so. Sanders muc 16:22, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
A number of logical fallacies are catalogued by Latin phrases which could be added to our list:
I notice that most of these already have direct Wikipedia entries or references in logical fallacies. None of these argumentum phrases currently appears on the List of Latin Phrases page. I'm reluctant to add so many without raising the discussion here first. (Edit boldly aside!). If we/I add them I would make sure each is linked to their own pages or to the logical fallacies page as appropriate). Rather than adding all of them en masse we could simply modify the introduction to link to the logical fallacies and the list of legal terms as other sources of Latin Phrases.
I attempted to create a link to the words ad hoc elsewhere. Mysteriously, anything in link brackets that contains the words ad hoc vanishes, like this probably will: ad hoc. It's in there. What's happening here? -- Ihcoyc That works for me, seemingly; would ad_hoc work better? Geoffrey
Someone felt it important enough to reference "Pulvis et umbra sumus" in the umbra article. Yet that phrase isn't listed in this article. Should that phrase be addded to this article? Samw 20:23 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I can't help thinking that this page would be improved by adding a separate page for each phrase, and just listing the phrases here without the definitions, with of course a link to the page for that phrase. Many of the phrases have their own page already. If a phrase is sufficiently well used to warrant listing, then it probably deserves its own entry in Wikipedia. Any objectors? Pamplemousse 07:02, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Isn't this also used in court to indicate the words spoken by the accused, as in confessions, etc.? RickK 03:49, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC) I've not heard of that one. My understanding of Ipse Dixit was that one uses it to refer to a statement that was forwarded without authority. Directly translated: "He himself said it," as if to say: "Him merely saying it doesn't make it so." This seems at odds with the definition here, which seems to take its cue from Logic. (Which is fine, of course, but perhaps suggests that Ipse Dixit deserves its own entry? Indeed, I think a List of Law Latin Phrases deserves its own entry, for the definitions are often so esoteric and so at odds with direct translations that it constitutes a separate beast in itself . . . but I'm not the guy to do it.) -- Iason 18:08, 1 May 2004 (UTC) --- Ad interim Surely interim is sufficient, without ad no? Wetman 15:23, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I removed the reference to sexual situations. Just as we use being "caught red-handed" for any embarassing or criminal situation, in flagrante delicto can apply to numerous instances.
Is this the traditional interpretation? Offhand I would think of a more general sense, like "rose have spines" Jorge Stolfi 17:01, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is this the correct translation/interpretation? Jorge Stolfi 17:01, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps "I won" or "I vanquished" is a more accurate translation of "vici"? Jorge Stolfi 17:01, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC) Well the first two you mentioned are not really in common usage in English, but those are the normal interpretations. As for veni vidi vici, that is definitely always "I conquered". I have even seen the whole phrase used completely out of context (referring to a basketball game!), and translated incorrectly as "they came, they saw, they conquered". Adam Bishop 19:20, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC) Well, so how would you say "they came, they saw, they conquered?" Zach Phillips 21:11, 24 April 2005 (UTC) Venerunt, viderunt, vicerunt. alteripse 21:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm not a Latin scholar so I couldn't add and define these, but don't they deserve to be on the list? -- Jrdioko 01:24, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
This is commonly translated as "As before, so after." Iggynelix 22:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
What is the plural of persona non grata?
Could someone assert that the exact translation of "Divide et imperia" is really "Divide and conquer"? Whatever the translation may be, it should probably be added to the list. -- Itai 23:52, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I just came across this and presume it is some sort of warning. Any of you Latinists have this one close at hand? (Also I note the complete lack of "Romans Go Home" on this page.) Regards, [[ 212.138.47.13 02:27, 26 May 2004 (UTC)]]
The new format of this page (without the bold markup) does not look good at all under the "standard" skin; and the new (default) skin looks terrible on my browser.
Jorge Stolfi 05:46, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
With the standard skin, both entries and translations look plain (non-bold) on my machine. I suppose my browser is too old, then? I am using Mozilla/5.0 (or 1.0.1) on Linux. I would gladly upgrade, but unfortunately I do not have admin privileges to this machine, and I must wait until the sysadmins find the time to do it for me...
Jorge Stolfi 04:47, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Should the religious concepts "imitatio dei", "imagio dei" and "visio dei" be added to this list? They are in Latin, but are not often-used phrases. Is there a list of Latin terms somewhere? -- Itai 06:23, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The introduction claims that this is a list of the 'less common' latin phrases. However, I see many latin phrases commonly used in english writing or speech in this list. I think it would really be useful to split this list in two. One for common phrases or abbreviations that just about every english speaker should know, e.g. 'e.g.'. (I love self-reference.) And one that really is for the 'less common' phrases. Alternatively, we could add something to the entries for the 'common' phrases to indicate that this is something that most english speakers know. Or we could expand upon that, and make a scale of english usage for each latin phrase: common, uncommon, and rara avis. Does this seem useful to anyone? 8^) -- Danny Rathjens 04:35, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC) State Mottos? If this comment is in the wrong place, sorry. I saw North Carolinas state motto in there and I wondered about West Virginia's: Montani Semper Liberi which the state translates as "Mountaineers are always free," should this and other state mottos be included?
I wonder why some of the abbreviations we all use for these phrases are all capitalized and the others are not. Do any language scholars happen to know if there is a reason for this? Could it be based on whether the abbreviation was more commonly used in literature(e.g., i.e, etc.) versus inscriptions(R.I.P., A.D., Q.E.D.)? -- Danny Rathjens 04:42, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC)
Both "Ex post facto" and "Post facto" are listed as meaning "After the fact." Is there not some difference between them? -- Pascal666 00:13, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) Some nuance, yes: "Ex post facto": From after the fact; "Post facto": After the fact. While not strictly an argument of scholarly Latin, "Ex post facto" in (American) Constitutional law refers to the prohibition from passing laws which make actions retroactively illegal. Whether or not the "ex" is correct from an academic perspective, I think an entry for "Ex post facto" in the (American) Constitutional sense remains relevant. -- Essjay 05:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What about "In vino veritas". How do you translate it? In wine there is truth. -- 80.58.11.107 03:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The phrase is not proper, to my knowledge. Something in there needs to be in the accusative case (ends in -um or -am) since the preposition ad, which is used with the accusative is in the phrase. Judging from my limited experience, the phrase is "Ad astram per aspera", To the stars by rough (way)." I'll consult my tables: Latin words are usually rearranged in statements, provided one is able to make sense of it by judging appropriate case.
I just added sine qua non wihtout realizing that conditio sine qua non already existed. Can one of our resident experts tell me which is the more appropriate Latin phrase (or better yet, simply remove the one that isn't?) I think sine qua non should redirect to this page anyway; it seems common enough. -- Ardonik. talk() * 08:29, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
There's a general consensus that "List of X proverbs" pages (where X is a language) belong on Wikiquote, not here on Wikipedia, and those pages are being moved and merged there. But this page is different. It isn't Latin quotes, it's Latin phases that can be used in English or among the intelligencia. So where should it go? It could be left here, of course, but it seems to me that each phrase should be moved to Wiktionary as a separate entry. What do you think? Does this sound right to you? – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 14:55, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
I've always heard this phrase as "in medias res", not "in media res". Is it a typo? Alensha 20:23, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) yes alteripse 22:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For this, we have
and (omitting some diacritical marks)
American Heritage Dictionary
explains "genitive of exemplum, example + gratia, ablative of gratia, favor". (Although
ablative case feels informative, i can't sort out the implications of the cases.) If the literal translation is close to "to the benefit of exemplification" rather than close to the appealing "an example, for [the reader's] benefit", i'd value a short statement that "an example, for free" is unfounded.
--
Jerzy
(t) 15:47, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)
I have the strong suspicion this is Italian (now usually spelled a beneplacito) rather than Latin, where the preposition a/ab does not make much sense in this context. Does anybody share/can anybody refute my suspicion? T.a.k. 21:25, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) Deleted the entry. T.a.k. 22:41, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"L." in this book means "Latin". I can also find dozens of websites online that have "a bene placito" in a large list of Latin phrases (and, significantly, these sites don't mistake "a capella" for Latin). While it may appear somewhat Italian and have a strange, idiomatic literal translation in English, and while it apparently (like many other Latin words and expressions) has an Italian derivative (beneplacito or beneplacimento, a synonym for ad libitum), it's nonetheless a Latin phrase. - Silence 00:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I wondered wether it would be appropriate to add "per definitionem". I'm not a native speaker and I don't know wether you use this at all.
I removed a link to a page marked for deletion and found to my horror that half the page had mysteriously vanished! Not only that, but I tried to go to an earlier version to get the missing material and it won't go into the editing box where you type your edits. Maybe someone else can fix it??
John Locke never actually said Tabula Rasa. But everyone thinks he did. He actually said something similiar... but not Tabula Rasa. Zach4000
Messa Ite Est - the mass is finished. Hoc est corpus chritsi - this it the body of christ. Later pardied by those who deny trns-substntiation as 'hocus pocus'. Agnus Dei - lamb of god Messa Solemnus - beethoven and others wrote solemn mass music. AMDG = Ad majorum Deus Glorium? = to the greater glory of god. INRI = Iesus Nazarene Rex Iudum?
Should you keep the main page of all terms and add a sub-page with Legal terms? Pari Passu = legal term used in bonds and loans meaning 'ranks equally amongst themselves' Inter Partes - obvious Nemo dat quod non habit - you cant give what you dont have. A legal maxim to do with the sale of personal property. In camera - in the room Ex Curia - from the court Mens Rea - to mean or intend to do the thing. Mutatis Mutandis - changed as required CJL 28-Apr-05
The article claims this is an anthem of pan-Europeanists. A quick google search reveals just 4 results, all of which are replicas of Wikipedia. -- 82.46.90.231 20:48, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The entry states: Haec olim meminisse iuvabit
"Perhaps, we'll look back at this and smile." Virgil's Aeneid
I do believe the proper quote, in full, to be "Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit." The quote is from Aeneas, when he and his men reach shore. Apart from not being a complete quote, the literal tranlation is "Someday, perhaps, even these things will be pleasant to remember."
Does this fit here? It (supposedly) means "Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.". Source: H2G2. EmilioSilva 17:53, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
In reviewing this article and some of my contributions, I wonder if it would be a good idea to split off (heraldic) mottos into a separate article? Not all are Latin, such as the motto of the Order of the Garter. There is an article List of Mottos, but listed in order of organisation, rather than by motto - given that people will usually want to look up an unfamiliar motto, that seems odd. WLD 10:11, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ex Luna, Scientia
"From the moon, knowledge". The motto of the Apollo 13 moon mission, derived from the motto of the US Navy.
OK, but what is the motto of the US Navy?
BenFrantzDale's edit [1] made me realize how awkward and inconsistent the formatting of this page is in regard to literal translations. It seems like all of the i.e.s and e.g.s clutter up the page terribly, and we might be better off without them anyway, as per the (informal) guidelines. (Yes, I realize the abbreviations are easy enough to look up if you're already on this page. ;-) Without the abbreviations, we'd need to organize it a little differently for it to be clear what was what, though. So I think a good compromise of usefulness and formatting would be to organize the phrases (where necessary) something like:
With this format, the most relevant meaning would always come first, making this page more efficient to use as a reference. The profusion of inconsistent abbreviations and dashes could be almost entirely eliminated, hopefully improving the legibility of the page for those who are just perusing instead of looking up something specific. Just a thought. I'm happy to make the changes or do a sample section in my user space if there is positive feedback on this suggestion. — HorsePunchKid→ 龜 07:15, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
...Isn't "a capella" Italian? -- User:Jenmoa 04:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Arrigo, I've removed this:
...because as I was saying in the edit summary, it just doesn't mean that. Fiat is the subjunctive of "fio" and (as you can see by the other examples on the page which include the word) it usually means "let it be done". Fio uses the passive system of "facio" so for both verbs, the passive (as you say, "an already done thing") is "factus". And that is where "fait" in French comes from, so there is somewhat of a connection, but "fiat" simply does not mean "an already done thing" and has no immediate connection to "fait accompli." Adam Bishop 21:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC) In an english text I some time ago came across with something like He wanted to present others with a fiat - that obviously is intended to mean approximately the same as fait accompli. Have you seen similar examples with your version, "factus"? we have to remember that not always, English use of Latin phrases has bothered with grammatical correctness - I think that's an heritage of monk latin ;) Arrigo 22:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
There in the list are other single words too. This should be included. Arrigo 23:07, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Is that a joke?
Hmmm...I'm no Latin expert, but there seems to be a descrepancy between the expansion of op. cit. in its' entry here (opere citato), and at Op cit (opus citatum). I may have just let the world know about my complete ignorance of the latin language. Maneesh 19:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the ablative/dative is by far the preferred form. alteripse 21:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this means 'they condemn what they don't understand, not because they don't understand (or perhaps it is ambiguous.. but what seems more likely to me. Changing Zargulon 21:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I added "Res" from RFC2822 (Internet Message Format), which translates it informally:
These three fields are intended to have only human-readable content with information about the message. The "Subject:" field is the most common and contains a short string identifying the topic of the message. When used in a reply, the field body MAY start with the string "Re: " (from the Latin "res", in the matter of) followed by the contents of the "Subject:" field body of the original message.
(emphasis added) However, I don't know Latin, and I don't know if this is the best possible translation. Therefore, someone who knows Latin should check this. -- Dolda2000 22:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Even if Virgil doesn't write like Cicero, audentis cannot be an accusative; it might be a dative, though I suspect it could be a misquotation (maybe by someone whose mother language uses dative after the equivalent of juvat). According to the Petit Larousse 1994 (Latin, Greek and foreign locutions, under "Audaces fortuna juvat"), Virgil's Æneid 10:284 starts with "Audentes fortuna juvat". — Tonymec 12:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Non facias malum, ut inde fiat bonum
"You are not to do evil, that good may result therefrom." — Two wrongs don't make a right
shouldn't this say "the ends don't justify the means" ?
Hello! I'd like to initiate a dialogue about the validity of including phrases that are not Latin but derived from Latin. E.g., lieu; see description. Is it appropriate to include such phrases here (and to elucidate why) with the original etymology, or in another listing (e.g., of List of French phrases, etc.)? Thoughts? Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 06:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
To show the difference between "Latin" and "derived from Latin": IMHO, "in loco parentis", which is Latin and used in English, should be included here; "in lieu of" which is an English phrase with a single French word embedded in it, should not be listed here, but at best in the part of the "French phrases" page which lists French-seeming phrases used in English but not in French (the corresponding French phrase is "au lieu de"). - Tonymec 18:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I added some tags to navigate within the "Latin phrases" page: The page is so long that it's cumbersome getting from one Latin phrase to a related one not in the nearby alphabetical order--e.g. (pun intended),
- Pax Americana
- "The Peace of America" — a euphemism for the United States of America and its sphere of influence, adapted from Pax Romana (q.v.)
Of course, q.v., (the abbreviation for Quod vide,) at the end of the above entry is itself another phrase on the page. Now, in everyday reading I recall the meaning of common Latin phrases such as i.e. and e.g., but my knowledge of Latin in limited, so phrases such as q.v. and cf. are ones I usually have to interrupt my reading in order to look up in a dictionary. Therefore, I wanted to bring the power of hypertext to the page, so that one can return to one's place just by clicking the "back" button on one's browser. My use of the "span id" tag (for navigation to a particular location within a web page) is the only solution I can think of, but it will be a cumbersome job inserting it in all the places I want to on the page (e.g., referring readers from all the abbreviated entries to their respective expanded form). Being new to Wikipedia, I have a couple of questions for everyone:
Thank you in advance for any feedback you can provide.
The entry for Anno Domini currently says "In the year of the lord". I have heard it as "In the year of our Lord" (emphasis mine). Could a grammarian of Latin please correct it if appropriate?
In some Latin phrases, the word for God is always capitalized, but not here. Is there a rule for capitalization in Latin? Classical latin and early ecclesiastical latin made no use of capitalization in the same way we do. Contemporary latin usage (always as a second language) tends to use capitalization and punctuation rules of modern Romance languages or English (which are pretty similar). alteripse 02:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
This is the first problem I'm going to try to tackle with this list. Other problems, like both lists being severely infested with pseudolatin, jokes, and neolatinisms, incredibly inaccurate translations, and pervasive inaccuracies, will come after I understand the very basic issue of what belongs on these pages. Once someone has enlightened me on that, I can start to make sure that the pages themselves reflect our intentions and framework. So, the distinction between List of Latin phrases and List of Latin proverbs.. This seems to be a very loose distinction indeed. Presumably a "proverb" is a complete thought with a message of its own, whereas a "phrase" is generally shorter and incomplete, requiring context to make sense. But many things that seem to qualify quite easily as "proverbs" are commonly called "phrases", like errare humanum est, mens sana in corpore sano, memento mori, and quis custodiet ipsos custodes; so where does one draw the line? I can understand why Igne Natura Renovatur Integra is a proverb while Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum is a phrase (though some svavely qvestionable person seems to have replaced the "u"s with "v"s in the phrases page to make a half-hearted point about the Romans not having a distinct "u" letter, oy vey), as the former is just a title while the latter is a complete sentence with its own obvious message. But most of the other decisions just baffle me: Fiat iustitia et pereat mundus is apparently a proverb, since it's on the proverb page only, while Fiat iustitia ruat coelum is apparently a phrase, since it's on the phrase page only! Where's the reason in this? Likewise, how could one argue that Respiciendum est judicanti ne quid aut durius aut remissius constituatur quam causa deposcit; nec enim aut severitatis aut clementiæ gloria affectanda est (ah yes, we do love those ridiculous æs, don't we) is a "phrase", while Iura novit curia and Malum in se are proverbs? Or that Labor omnia vincit is a "proverb", while Veritas omnia vincit and Amor vincit omnia are phrases? Not only is it terribly confusing, but it seems redundant to have a distinct list of proverbs and phrases when the two overlap incessantly, when someone will rarely know which list to check for a certain quote (for example, I'd have expected just about all mottos to be "proverbs" rather than "phrases", but the phrase page is full of mottos!), and when the two lists are so disproportionate in size: the phrases list is 75 pages long, while the proverbs list is only 16 pages long. Notice how many Latin lines appear in both lists:
Please, just tell me what both pages should have, and I'll work to make sure they do have that, since there's obviously no rhyme or reason to any of it currently. - Silence 21:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC) One more question: is an exhortation or pledge to take a certain course of action a proverb or a phrase? Ars gratia artis doesn't state some truth about the world or make a general claim, but just makes the promise (or the demand) "art for the sake of art". If that's a proverb due to its completeness and definite, unchanging statement (despite lacking a verb), then presumably so would ad maiorem dei gloriam (to the greater glory of God) and even ad lucem (to the light), which is why I ask: I'm in the process of sorting out what changes to make to both lists to establish consistency (or at least sanity), but I need my above questions answered before I'll know where anything should go. - Silence 22:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Nobody knows, you're right, there is no reason for it. If you want to come up with a better solution, I'm sure it would be welcome. Adam Bishop 22:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Agreed on all counts: the separation between these two pages is ill-defined, this is a total headache, but merging the pages might result in a nightmarishly long list, yet if we keep them split based on whatever arbitrary division, then how will uninformed users know which one to look at? Perhaps we could divide the list based on first letter of the phrase? That way it should usually be quite obvious which one to look at.
As for what should be on the list, I would suggest we be as inclusive as possible. Neo-Latin quotations should be fine, so long as they are a motto, proverb, or catchphrase of some sort: in other words, so long as they are "encyclopedic." Mea quidem sententia this should include phrases like "draco dormiens numquam titillandus" (because it is perfectly good Latin, and it is well known, even if some might not approve of the source) but not "cur me vexas?" (which is also perfectly good Latin, but so far as I know not famous.) Heck, I would even include phrases like "Illegitimis Nil Carborundum" which is thoroughly fake, but very frequently quoted, and what's worse, frequently quoted as real Latin. It is, me iudice, important for people who do not know Latin to be able to find and learn about such phrases, even if they are only jokes. --
Iustinus
17:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've been trying to think of how best to organize this article, and it's occurred to me that there's a strong push among recent high-quality lists to use tables to organize information in a consistent and appealing way. Though it would make editing slightly trickier, it would ensure a stable and very organized system of presenting all of the major types of information, which has been troubling me lately because of how disordered a manner it is presented in. It would also make it possible to have
Latin | Translation | Source | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
Ave Caesar morituri te salutant | "Hail, Caesar! The ones who are about to die salute you!" | Suetonius, Cladius 21 | The traditional greeting of gladiators prior to battle. morituri is also translated as "we who are about to die" based on the context in which it was spoken, and this translation is sometimes aided by changing the Latin to nos morituri te salutamus. Also rendered with imperator instead of Caesar. |
Circa (c.) or (ca.) | "Around" | — | In the sense of "approximately" or "about". Usually used of a date. "Jesus was actually born circa 6 BC." |
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori | "It is sweet and honorable to die for the fatherland" | Horace, Odes III, 2, 13 | Frequently quoted, notably in the poem Dulce et Decorum Est by Wilfred Owen. |
Ecce homo | "Behold the man" | Pilate in the Latin translation of the Gospel of John, as he presents Jesus crowned with thorns to the crowd | Oscar Wilde opened his defense on trial with this phrase when on trial for sodomy, characteristically using a well-known Biblical reference as a double entendre. It is also the title of Friedrich Nietzsche's autobiography, and the title of the theme music by Howard Goodall for the BBC comedy Mr. Bean. |
In silico | "In silicon" | Coined in the early 1990s for scientific papers | Refers to an experiment or process performed virtually, as a computer simulation. The term is Dog Latin modeled after terms such as in vitro and in vivo. The Latin word for silicon is silicium, so the correct Latinization of "in silicon" would be in silicio, but this form has little usage. |
Lucus a non lucendo | "It is a grove by not being light" | Late 4th-century grammarian Honoratus Maurus | A pun based on the word lucus ("dark grove") having a similar appearance to the verb lucere ("to shine"), arguing that the former word is derived from the latter word because of a lack of light in wooded groves. Often used as an example of absurd etymology. |
Nosce te ipsum | " Know thyself" | Cicero, from the Greek "Γνωθι Σεαυτον", inscribed on the Temple of Apollo at Delphi | An non-traditional Latin rendering, "temet nosce", is used in The Matrix. |
Panem et circenses | "Bread and circuses" | Juvenal, Satires 10, 81 | Originally described all that was needed for emperors to placate the Roman mob. Today used to describe any public entertainment used to distract public attention from more important matters. |
Post meridiem (p.m.) | "After midday" | — | The period from noon to midnight. (cf. ante meridiem) |
Reductio ad absurdum | "Leading back to the absurd" | Translated from Aristotle's "ἡ εις άτοπον απαγωγη" | A technique of argument that proves the thesis by showing that its opposite is absurd or logically untenable. This is an oft-used method of proof in mathematics and philosophy. |
Semper fidelis | "Always faithful" | Coined in 1658 by Pope Alexander VII | Motto of the United States Marine Corps. Often abbreviated as Semper Fi. |
Along with the table, I would recommend that we merge "proverbs" back into this article because almost all the items listed on that page are also listed here anyway, it's too tricky to distinguish one from the other, and it's inconvenient to our readers to force them to guess whether the item they're looking for is in one list or the other (or on Wikiquote). In addition, the list would then be shortened by being much more strict in whether a phrase has enough information to merit listing on Wikipedia. A boxed link should be provided at the top of the page to the relevant Wikiquote pages so people will know instantly where to go and efforts between the two Wikipedias can be coordinated, and we should cut out any phrases that are unencyclopedically trivial (i.e. having too little noteworthy information, or not being prevalent enough, or both), possibly archiving them on a subpage (like Talk;List of Latin phrases/Removed if there are worries of deleting entries that we'll later want to re-add. Additionally, a table would allow us to color-code each entry, not only giving us a way to make the page look very pretty and eye-catching (since finding images for a page like this would be rather difficult :)), but also letting us easily distinguish the phrases in a certain way. My initial idea was to have one color for each period in Latin—perhaps one for pre-Classical Latin in light green (Old Latin: 2nd century BC and earlier), one for Classical Latin in light yellow (Golden and Silver Age Latin: 1st centuries BC and AD), one for post-Classical Latin in light red (Vulgar, Medieval, and Renaissance Latin: 2nd century AD to 16th century AD), one for New Latin in light blue (Modern Latin: 17th to 21st century AD), and one for Latin of an unknown period in light grey. But if that would be too difficult to research, or if the time period wouldn't be helpful enough to justify the color changes, or anything like that, there are plenty of other options for color-coding, like by subject matter (one color for Ecclesiastical Latin, one for medical Latin, one for classification Latin, one for legal Latin, one for Latin proverbs, one for logical Latin, one for joke Latin...), though the problem with that would be the many Latin terms that might not fit into any easy category, or the possibility of overlaps... - Silence 02:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Beautiful work! I know I said I'd do something about it a while back, but I'm glad I never got around to it, because this solution is much better! — HorsePunchKid→ 龜 2005-12-11 08:29:45 Z
I think the table looks horrible. The very limited horizontal width causes the phrases to be broken across multiple lines with only a few words on each line, reducing the readability. Also, verical lines in tables is typographically bad practice. – Peter J. Acklam 16:24, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Added de gustibus non est disputandum. Please edit as advisable. -- 31 december 2005
This is kind of annoying, being redirected to a page from the word In toto to this page but not being able to find the definition of the expression I'm looking for, might as well not put a redirection in that case. 24.201.116.26 14:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Eyeglass prescription article linked to from this page? It's down at the bottom. -- 68.63.238.53 04:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I strongly suggest remerging this list back into a single article. That article may be larger than our articles usually are, but the current way of dividing it is completely arbitrary and has no parallel in any other article I've ever seen. Deco 20:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there any need for a Manu propria article? The phrase is listed here already. -- Grocer 23:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Should we cross-reference phrases that are known by more than one common form? In other words, thus far, we only have one entry per phrase; none of the phrases just say "This is a misspelling/variant of X, see X", because that would cause a lot of bloat and redundant entries. However, it might make it easier for people to find entries that are listed in a part of the alphabet they aren't aware it belongs in (for example, the many variants of Ave Caesar morituri te salutant, starting with everything from "morituri" to "nos"). Should we include "empty entries" just to direct users to the actual entry? And if so, how should we format them? I don't think it's a good idea to make them look like normal entries, and I absolutely don't think we should repeat the information from the real entry in the disambig-entries, rather than just telling them where the right entry is briefly ("See X"). But how to handle it? Should we italicize the whole line? Avoid bolding the initial phrase? Or what? Should we provide a translation of the phrase even though it's not the main entry, then use the "Notes" space to just say "See X" for the main entry? Or what? - Silence 14:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Could anyone more learned than I provide a translation of the text on the engraving of Pocahontas made in her lifetime. The engraving illustrates the Pocahontas article, but the text is reproduced below for your convenience. I've made a first attempt at it, but my Latin is almost non-existent. Note that in the inscription, there is a horizontal line above the L of ALS. "MATOAKA ALS REBECCA FILIA POTENTISS : PRINC : POWHATANI IMP:VIRGINIÆ." My attempt is: "Matoaka, also (known as) Rebecca, daughter of the powerful [leader, head, chief, master, superior, director, ruler, prince, sovereign,emperor] of the Powhatan empire, Virginia." Thanks - WLD 10:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to recommend this site http://www.just-quotes.com for an external link that has an excellent source of searchable universal Latin proverbs and Latin bible proverbs and Latin phrases with English translations. RobertTB 21:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The term s.v. redirects to this page... why? s.v. is not in the list of abbreviated Latin terms. Am I missing something? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rmagill ( talk • contribs) 22:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I put the moving template in there so you could discuss where it really belongs, because a question by User:Quadell generated no response. And I think this question is worth your attention. Don't get angry, no harm intended. Renata3 05:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed the moving template as the general feeling seems to be that it is in the correct location. My additional opinion is that since the Wikipedia is not paper the benefit of the doubt should be given to entries like this one (and to quotes in entries as well). I wonder what Renata3 or User:Quadell thinks would be gained from removing this information from the Wikipedia. Michael L. Kaufman 18:48, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
PLEASE' everybody: Do not use computers to sort the entries. The last computer-sorting already introduced three errors: "Ex Cathedra" and "Ex Deo" before "Ex animo" (Upper/lower case problem) and "
Ab Urbe... sorted by "Annus" rather than "Ab". Also when the "Q" section was processed three entries were truncated because of improper line splicing before the sorting. And the C section had extra blanks inserted at the end of every header, which were not visible on the page but caused the whole section to turn up in the "diff", thus making it harder to check the changes.
The entries are presently sorted, with no more than two or three errors if any. It will take much less effort to check the order visually and fix any errors by hand, than to do it by computer. Besides, even if you use the computer you MUST check the result afterwards, since it is all too easy to make mistakes.
Jorge Stolfi 21:24, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
(Trimmed by
JimD 21:29, 2004 May 17 (UTC). Left Jorge's caveat here [in perpetuity??])
I suggest to make wiki pages for all entries in this list. When doing so I expect to often find that there already is an article with this title and I shall then wikify the entry in the list. If, however, there is no article yet, I shall put a redirect pointing to the list. Any objections? Otherwise I'll do it so. Sanders muc 16:22, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
A number of logical fallacies are catalogued by Latin phrases which could be added to our list:
I notice that most of these already have direct Wikipedia entries or references in logical fallacies. None of these argumentum phrases currently appears on the List of Latin Phrases page. I'm reluctant to add so many without raising the discussion here first. (Edit boldly aside!). If we/I add them I would make sure each is linked to their own pages or to the logical fallacies page as appropriate). Rather than adding all of them en masse we could simply modify the introduction to link to the logical fallacies and the list of legal terms as other sources of Latin Phrases.
I attempted to create a link to the words ad hoc elsewhere. Mysteriously, anything in link brackets that contains the words ad hoc vanishes, like this probably will: ad hoc. It's in there. What's happening here? -- Ihcoyc That works for me, seemingly; would ad_hoc work better? Geoffrey
Someone felt it important enough to reference "Pulvis et umbra sumus" in the umbra article. Yet that phrase isn't listed in this article. Should that phrase be addded to this article? Samw 20:23 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I can't help thinking that this page would be improved by adding a separate page for each phrase, and just listing the phrases here without the definitions, with of course a link to the page for that phrase. Many of the phrases have their own page already. If a phrase is sufficiently well used to warrant listing, then it probably deserves its own entry in Wikipedia. Any objectors? Pamplemousse 07:02, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Isn't this also used in court to indicate the words spoken by the accused, as in confessions, etc.? RickK 03:49, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC) I've not heard of that one. My understanding of Ipse Dixit was that one uses it to refer to a statement that was forwarded without authority. Directly translated: "He himself said it," as if to say: "Him merely saying it doesn't make it so." This seems at odds with the definition here, which seems to take its cue from Logic. (Which is fine, of course, but perhaps suggests that Ipse Dixit deserves its own entry? Indeed, I think a List of Law Latin Phrases deserves its own entry, for the definitions are often so esoteric and so at odds with direct translations that it constitutes a separate beast in itself . . . but I'm not the guy to do it.) -- Iason 18:08, 1 May 2004 (UTC) --- Ad interim Surely interim is sufficient, without ad no? Wetman 15:23, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I removed the reference to sexual situations. Just as we use being "caught red-handed" for any embarassing or criminal situation, in flagrante delicto can apply to numerous instances.
Is this the traditional interpretation? Offhand I would think of a more general sense, like "rose have spines" Jorge Stolfi 17:01, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is this the correct translation/interpretation? Jorge Stolfi 17:01, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps "I won" or "I vanquished" is a more accurate translation of "vici"? Jorge Stolfi 17:01, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC) Well the first two you mentioned are not really in common usage in English, but those are the normal interpretations. As for veni vidi vici, that is definitely always "I conquered". I have even seen the whole phrase used completely out of context (referring to a basketball game!), and translated incorrectly as "they came, they saw, they conquered". Adam Bishop 19:20, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC) Well, so how would you say "they came, they saw, they conquered?" Zach Phillips 21:11, 24 April 2005 (UTC) Venerunt, viderunt, vicerunt. alteripse 21:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm not a Latin scholar so I couldn't add and define these, but don't they deserve to be on the list? -- Jrdioko 01:24, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
This is commonly translated as "As before, so after." Iggynelix 22:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
What is the plural of persona non grata?
Could someone assert that the exact translation of "Divide et imperia" is really "Divide and conquer"? Whatever the translation may be, it should probably be added to the list. -- Itai 23:52, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I just came across this and presume it is some sort of warning. Any of you Latinists have this one close at hand? (Also I note the complete lack of "Romans Go Home" on this page.) Regards, [[ 212.138.47.13 02:27, 26 May 2004 (UTC)]]
The new format of this page (without the bold markup) does not look good at all under the "standard" skin; and the new (default) skin looks terrible on my browser.
Jorge Stolfi 05:46, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
With the standard skin, both entries and translations look plain (non-bold) on my machine. I suppose my browser is too old, then? I am using Mozilla/5.0 (or 1.0.1) on Linux. I would gladly upgrade, but unfortunately I do not have admin privileges to this machine, and I must wait until the sysadmins find the time to do it for me...
Jorge Stolfi 04:47, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Should the religious concepts "imitatio dei", "imagio dei" and "visio dei" be added to this list? They are in Latin, but are not often-used phrases. Is there a list of Latin terms somewhere? -- Itai 06:23, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The introduction claims that this is a list of the 'less common' latin phrases. However, I see many latin phrases commonly used in english writing or speech in this list. I think it would really be useful to split this list in two. One for common phrases or abbreviations that just about every english speaker should know, e.g. 'e.g.'. (I love self-reference.) And one that really is for the 'less common' phrases. Alternatively, we could add something to the entries for the 'common' phrases to indicate that this is something that most english speakers know. Or we could expand upon that, and make a scale of english usage for each latin phrase: common, uncommon, and rara avis. Does this seem useful to anyone? 8^) -- Danny Rathjens 04:35, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC) State Mottos? If this comment is in the wrong place, sorry. I saw North Carolinas state motto in there and I wondered about West Virginia's: Montani Semper Liberi which the state translates as "Mountaineers are always free," should this and other state mottos be included?
I wonder why some of the abbreviations we all use for these phrases are all capitalized and the others are not. Do any language scholars happen to know if there is a reason for this? Could it be based on whether the abbreviation was more commonly used in literature(e.g., i.e, etc.) versus inscriptions(R.I.P., A.D., Q.E.D.)? -- Danny Rathjens 04:42, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC)
Both "Ex post facto" and "Post facto" are listed as meaning "After the fact." Is there not some difference between them? -- Pascal666 00:13, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC) Some nuance, yes: "Ex post facto": From after the fact; "Post facto": After the fact. While not strictly an argument of scholarly Latin, "Ex post facto" in (American) Constitutional law refers to the prohibition from passing laws which make actions retroactively illegal. Whether or not the "ex" is correct from an academic perspective, I think an entry for "Ex post facto" in the (American) Constitutional sense remains relevant. -- Essjay 05:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What about "In vino veritas". How do you translate it? In wine there is truth. -- 80.58.11.107 03:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The phrase is not proper, to my knowledge. Something in there needs to be in the accusative case (ends in -um or -am) since the preposition ad, which is used with the accusative is in the phrase. Judging from my limited experience, the phrase is "Ad astram per aspera", To the stars by rough (way)." I'll consult my tables: Latin words are usually rearranged in statements, provided one is able to make sense of it by judging appropriate case.
I just added sine qua non wihtout realizing that conditio sine qua non already existed. Can one of our resident experts tell me which is the more appropriate Latin phrase (or better yet, simply remove the one that isn't?) I think sine qua non should redirect to this page anyway; it seems common enough. -- Ardonik. talk() * 08:29, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
There's a general consensus that "List of X proverbs" pages (where X is a language) belong on Wikiquote, not here on Wikipedia, and those pages are being moved and merged there. But this page is different. It isn't Latin quotes, it's Latin phases that can be used in English or among the intelligencia. So where should it go? It could be left here, of course, but it seems to me that each phrase should be moved to Wiktionary as a separate entry. What do you think? Does this sound right to you? – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 14:55, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
I've always heard this phrase as "in medias res", not "in media res". Is it a typo? Alensha 20:23, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC) yes alteripse 22:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For this, we have
and (omitting some diacritical marks)
American Heritage Dictionary
explains "genitive of exemplum, example + gratia, ablative of gratia, favor". (Although
ablative case feels informative, i can't sort out the implications of the cases.) If the literal translation is close to "to the benefit of exemplification" rather than close to the appealing "an example, for [the reader's] benefit", i'd value a short statement that "an example, for free" is unfounded.
--
Jerzy
(t) 15:47, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)
I have the strong suspicion this is Italian (now usually spelled a beneplacito) rather than Latin, where the preposition a/ab does not make much sense in this context. Does anybody share/can anybody refute my suspicion? T.a.k. 21:25, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) Deleted the entry. T.a.k. 22:41, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"L." in this book means "Latin". I can also find dozens of websites online that have "a bene placito" in a large list of Latin phrases (and, significantly, these sites don't mistake "a capella" for Latin). While it may appear somewhat Italian and have a strange, idiomatic literal translation in English, and while it apparently (like many other Latin words and expressions) has an Italian derivative (beneplacito or beneplacimento, a synonym for ad libitum), it's nonetheless a Latin phrase. - Silence 00:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I wondered wether it would be appropriate to add "per definitionem". I'm not a native speaker and I don't know wether you use this at all.
I removed a link to a page marked for deletion and found to my horror that half the page had mysteriously vanished! Not only that, but I tried to go to an earlier version to get the missing material and it won't go into the editing box where you type your edits. Maybe someone else can fix it??
John Locke never actually said Tabula Rasa. But everyone thinks he did. He actually said something similiar... but not Tabula Rasa. Zach4000
Messa Ite Est - the mass is finished. Hoc est corpus chritsi - this it the body of christ. Later pardied by those who deny trns-substntiation as 'hocus pocus'. Agnus Dei - lamb of god Messa Solemnus - beethoven and others wrote solemn mass music. AMDG = Ad majorum Deus Glorium? = to the greater glory of god. INRI = Iesus Nazarene Rex Iudum?
Should you keep the main page of all terms and add a sub-page with Legal terms? Pari Passu = legal term used in bonds and loans meaning 'ranks equally amongst themselves' Inter Partes - obvious Nemo dat quod non habit - you cant give what you dont have. A legal maxim to do with the sale of personal property. In camera - in the room Ex Curia - from the court Mens Rea - to mean or intend to do the thing. Mutatis Mutandis - changed as required CJL 28-Apr-05
The article claims this is an anthem of pan-Europeanists. A quick google search reveals just 4 results, all of which are replicas of Wikipedia. -- 82.46.90.231 20:48, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The entry states: Haec olim meminisse iuvabit
"Perhaps, we'll look back at this and smile." Virgil's Aeneid
I do believe the proper quote, in full, to be "Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit." The quote is from Aeneas, when he and his men reach shore. Apart from not being a complete quote, the literal tranlation is "Someday, perhaps, even these things will be pleasant to remember."
Does this fit here? It (supposedly) means "Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.". Source: H2G2. EmilioSilva 17:53, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
In reviewing this article and some of my contributions, I wonder if it would be a good idea to split off (heraldic) mottos into a separate article? Not all are Latin, such as the motto of the Order of the Garter. There is an article List of Mottos, but listed in order of organisation, rather than by motto - given that people will usually want to look up an unfamiliar motto, that seems odd. WLD 10:11, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ex Luna, Scientia
"From the moon, knowledge". The motto of the Apollo 13 moon mission, derived from the motto of the US Navy.
OK, but what is the motto of the US Navy?
BenFrantzDale's edit [1] made me realize how awkward and inconsistent the formatting of this page is in regard to literal translations. It seems like all of the i.e.s and e.g.s clutter up the page terribly, and we might be better off without them anyway, as per the (informal) guidelines. (Yes, I realize the abbreviations are easy enough to look up if you're already on this page. ;-) Without the abbreviations, we'd need to organize it a little differently for it to be clear what was what, though. So I think a good compromise of usefulness and formatting would be to organize the phrases (where necessary) something like:
With this format, the most relevant meaning would always come first, making this page more efficient to use as a reference. The profusion of inconsistent abbreviations and dashes could be almost entirely eliminated, hopefully improving the legibility of the page for those who are just perusing instead of looking up something specific. Just a thought. I'm happy to make the changes or do a sample section in my user space if there is positive feedback on this suggestion. — HorsePunchKid→ 龜 07:15, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
...Isn't "a capella" Italian? -- User:Jenmoa 04:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Arrigo, I've removed this:
...because as I was saying in the edit summary, it just doesn't mean that. Fiat is the subjunctive of "fio" and (as you can see by the other examples on the page which include the word) it usually means "let it be done". Fio uses the passive system of "facio" so for both verbs, the passive (as you say, "an already done thing") is "factus". And that is where "fait" in French comes from, so there is somewhat of a connection, but "fiat" simply does not mean "an already done thing" and has no immediate connection to "fait accompli." Adam Bishop 21:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC) In an english text I some time ago came across with something like He wanted to present others with a fiat - that obviously is intended to mean approximately the same as fait accompli. Have you seen similar examples with your version, "factus"? we have to remember that not always, English use of Latin phrases has bothered with grammatical correctness - I think that's an heritage of monk latin ;) Arrigo 22:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
There in the list are other single words too. This should be included. Arrigo 23:07, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Is that a joke?
Hmmm...I'm no Latin expert, but there seems to be a descrepancy between the expansion of op. cit. in its' entry here (opere citato), and at Op cit (opus citatum). I may have just let the world know about my complete ignorance of the latin language. Maneesh 19:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the ablative/dative is by far the preferred form. alteripse 21:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this means 'they condemn what they don't understand, not because they don't understand (or perhaps it is ambiguous.. but what seems more likely to me. Changing Zargulon 21:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I added "Res" from RFC2822 (Internet Message Format), which translates it informally:
These three fields are intended to have only human-readable content with information about the message. The "Subject:" field is the most common and contains a short string identifying the topic of the message. When used in a reply, the field body MAY start with the string "Re: " (from the Latin "res", in the matter of) followed by the contents of the "Subject:" field body of the original message.
(emphasis added) However, I don't know Latin, and I don't know if this is the best possible translation. Therefore, someone who knows Latin should check this. -- Dolda2000 22:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Even if Virgil doesn't write like Cicero, audentis cannot be an accusative; it might be a dative, though I suspect it could be a misquotation (maybe by someone whose mother language uses dative after the equivalent of juvat). According to the Petit Larousse 1994 (Latin, Greek and foreign locutions, under "Audaces fortuna juvat"), Virgil's Æneid 10:284 starts with "Audentes fortuna juvat". — Tonymec 12:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Non facias malum, ut inde fiat bonum
"You are not to do evil, that good may result therefrom." — Two wrongs don't make a right
shouldn't this say "the ends don't justify the means" ?
Hello! I'd like to initiate a dialogue about the validity of including phrases that are not Latin but derived from Latin. E.g., lieu; see description. Is it appropriate to include such phrases here (and to elucidate why) with the original etymology, or in another listing (e.g., of List of French phrases, etc.)? Thoughts? Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 06:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
To show the difference between "Latin" and "derived from Latin": IMHO, "in loco parentis", which is Latin and used in English, should be included here; "in lieu of" which is an English phrase with a single French word embedded in it, should not be listed here, but at best in the part of the "French phrases" page which lists French-seeming phrases used in English but not in French (the corresponding French phrase is "au lieu de"). - Tonymec 18:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I added some tags to navigate within the "Latin phrases" page: The page is so long that it's cumbersome getting from one Latin phrase to a related one not in the nearby alphabetical order--e.g. (pun intended),
- Pax Americana
- "The Peace of America" — a euphemism for the United States of America and its sphere of influence, adapted from Pax Romana (q.v.)
Of course, q.v., (the abbreviation for Quod vide,) at the end of the above entry is itself another phrase on the page. Now, in everyday reading I recall the meaning of common Latin phrases such as i.e. and e.g., but my knowledge of Latin in limited, so phrases such as q.v. and cf. are ones I usually have to interrupt my reading in order to look up in a dictionary. Therefore, I wanted to bring the power of hypertext to the page, so that one can return to one's place just by clicking the "back" button on one's browser. My use of the "span id" tag (for navigation to a particular location within a web page) is the only solution I can think of, but it will be a cumbersome job inserting it in all the places I want to on the page (e.g., referring readers from all the abbreviated entries to their respective expanded form). Being new to Wikipedia, I have a couple of questions for everyone:
Thank you in advance for any feedback you can provide.
The entry for Anno Domini currently says "In the year of the lord". I have heard it as "In the year of our Lord" (emphasis mine). Could a grammarian of Latin please correct it if appropriate?
In some Latin phrases, the word for God is always capitalized, but not here. Is there a rule for capitalization in Latin? Classical latin and early ecclesiastical latin made no use of capitalization in the same way we do. Contemporary latin usage (always as a second language) tends to use capitalization and punctuation rules of modern Romance languages or English (which are pretty similar). alteripse 02:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
This is the first problem I'm going to try to tackle with this list. Other problems, like both lists being severely infested with pseudolatin, jokes, and neolatinisms, incredibly inaccurate translations, and pervasive inaccuracies, will come after I understand the very basic issue of what belongs on these pages. Once someone has enlightened me on that, I can start to make sure that the pages themselves reflect our intentions and framework. So, the distinction between List of Latin phrases and List of Latin proverbs.. This seems to be a very loose distinction indeed. Presumably a "proverb" is a complete thought with a message of its own, whereas a "phrase" is generally shorter and incomplete, requiring context to make sense. But many things that seem to qualify quite easily as "proverbs" are commonly called "phrases", like errare humanum est, mens sana in corpore sano, memento mori, and quis custodiet ipsos custodes; so where does one draw the line? I can understand why Igne Natura Renovatur Integra is a proverb while Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum is a phrase (though some svavely qvestionable person seems to have replaced the "u"s with "v"s in the phrases page to make a half-hearted point about the Romans not having a distinct "u" letter, oy vey), as the former is just a title while the latter is a complete sentence with its own obvious message. But most of the other decisions just baffle me: Fiat iustitia et pereat mundus is apparently a proverb, since it's on the proverb page only, while Fiat iustitia ruat coelum is apparently a phrase, since it's on the phrase page only! Where's the reason in this? Likewise, how could one argue that Respiciendum est judicanti ne quid aut durius aut remissius constituatur quam causa deposcit; nec enim aut severitatis aut clementiæ gloria affectanda est (ah yes, we do love those ridiculous æs, don't we) is a "phrase", while Iura novit curia and Malum in se are proverbs? Or that Labor omnia vincit is a "proverb", while Veritas omnia vincit and Amor vincit omnia are phrases? Not only is it terribly confusing, but it seems redundant to have a distinct list of proverbs and phrases when the two overlap incessantly, when someone will rarely know which list to check for a certain quote (for example, I'd have expected just about all mottos to be "proverbs" rather than "phrases", but the phrase page is full of mottos!), and when the two lists are so disproportionate in size: the phrases list is 75 pages long, while the proverbs list is only 16 pages long. Notice how many Latin lines appear in both lists:
Please, just tell me what both pages should have, and I'll work to make sure they do have that, since there's obviously no rhyme or reason to any of it currently. - Silence 21:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC) One more question: is an exhortation or pledge to take a certain course of action a proverb or a phrase? Ars gratia artis doesn't state some truth about the world or make a general claim, but just makes the promise (or the demand) "art for the sake of art". If that's a proverb due to its completeness and definite, unchanging statement (despite lacking a verb), then presumably so would ad maiorem dei gloriam (to the greater glory of God) and even ad lucem (to the light), which is why I ask: I'm in the process of sorting out what changes to make to both lists to establish consistency (or at least sanity), but I need my above questions answered before I'll know where anything should go. - Silence 22:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Nobody knows, you're right, there is no reason for it. If you want to come up with a better solution, I'm sure it would be welcome. Adam Bishop 22:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Agreed on all counts: the separation between these two pages is ill-defined, this is a total headache, but merging the pages might result in a nightmarishly long list, yet if we keep them split based on whatever arbitrary division, then how will uninformed users know which one to look at? Perhaps we could divide the list based on first letter of the phrase? That way it should usually be quite obvious which one to look at.
As for what should be on the list, I would suggest we be as inclusive as possible. Neo-Latin quotations should be fine, so long as they are a motto, proverb, or catchphrase of some sort: in other words, so long as they are "encyclopedic." Mea quidem sententia this should include phrases like "draco dormiens numquam titillandus" (because it is perfectly good Latin, and it is well known, even if some might not approve of the source) but not "cur me vexas?" (which is also perfectly good Latin, but so far as I know not famous.) Heck, I would even include phrases like "Illegitimis Nil Carborundum" which is thoroughly fake, but very frequently quoted, and what's worse, frequently quoted as real Latin. It is, me iudice, important for people who do not know Latin to be able to find and learn about such phrases, even if they are only jokes. --
Iustinus
17:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've been trying to think of how best to organize this article, and it's occurred to me that there's a strong push among recent high-quality lists to use tables to organize information in a consistent and appealing way. Though it would make editing slightly trickier, it would ensure a stable and very organized system of presenting all of the major types of information, which has been troubling me lately because of how disordered a manner it is presented in. It would also make it possible to have
Latin | Translation | Source | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
Ave Caesar morituri te salutant | "Hail, Caesar! The ones who are about to die salute you!" | Suetonius, Cladius 21 | The traditional greeting of gladiators prior to battle. morituri is also translated as "we who are about to die" based on the context in which it was spoken, and this translation is sometimes aided by changing the Latin to nos morituri te salutamus. Also rendered with imperator instead of Caesar. |
Circa (c.) or (ca.) | "Around" | — | In the sense of "approximately" or "about". Usually used of a date. "Jesus was actually born circa 6 BC." |
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori | "It is sweet and honorable to die for the fatherland" | Horace, Odes III, 2, 13 | Frequently quoted, notably in the poem Dulce et Decorum Est by Wilfred Owen. |
Ecce homo | "Behold the man" | Pilate in the Latin translation of the Gospel of John, as he presents Jesus crowned with thorns to the crowd | Oscar Wilde opened his defense on trial with this phrase when on trial for sodomy, characteristically using a well-known Biblical reference as a double entendre. It is also the title of Friedrich Nietzsche's autobiography, and the title of the theme music by Howard Goodall for the BBC comedy Mr. Bean. |
In silico | "In silicon" | Coined in the early 1990s for scientific papers | Refers to an experiment or process performed virtually, as a computer simulation. The term is Dog Latin modeled after terms such as in vitro and in vivo. The Latin word for silicon is silicium, so the correct Latinization of "in silicon" would be in silicio, but this form has little usage. |
Lucus a non lucendo | "It is a grove by not being light" | Late 4th-century grammarian Honoratus Maurus | A pun based on the word lucus ("dark grove") having a similar appearance to the verb lucere ("to shine"), arguing that the former word is derived from the latter word because of a lack of light in wooded groves. Often used as an example of absurd etymology. |
Nosce te ipsum | " Know thyself" | Cicero, from the Greek "Γνωθι Σεαυτον", inscribed on the Temple of Apollo at Delphi | An non-traditional Latin rendering, "temet nosce", is used in The Matrix. |
Panem et circenses | "Bread and circuses" | Juvenal, Satires 10, 81 | Originally described all that was needed for emperors to placate the Roman mob. Today used to describe any public entertainment used to distract public attention from more important matters. |
Post meridiem (p.m.) | "After midday" | — | The period from noon to midnight. (cf. ante meridiem) |
Reductio ad absurdum | "Leading back to the absurd" | Translated from Aristotle's "ἡ εις άτοπον απαγωγη" | A technique of argument that proves the thesis by showing that its opposite is absurd or logically untenable. This is an oft-used method of proof in mathematics and philosophy. |
Semper fidelis | "Always faithful" | Coined in 1658 by Pope Alexander VII | Motto of the United States Marine Corps. Often abbreviated as Semper Fi. |
Along with the table, I would recommend that we merge "proverbs" back into this article because almost all the items listed on that page are also listed here anyway, it's too tricky to distinguish one from the other, and it's inconvenient to our readers to force them to guess whether the item they're looking for is in one list or the other (or on Wikiquote). In addition, the list would then be shortened by being much more strict in whether a phrase has enough information to merit listing on Wikipedia. A boxed link should be provided at the top of the page to the relevant Wikiquote pages so people will know instantly where to go and efforts between the two Wikipedias can be coordinated, and we should cut out any phrases that are unencyclopedically trivial (i.e. having too little noteworthy information, or not being prevalent enough, or both), possibly archiving them on a subpage (like Talk;List of Latin phrases/Removed if there are worries of deleting entries that we'll later want to re-add. Additionally, a table would allow us to color-code each entry, not only giving us a way to make the page look very pretty and eye-catching (since finding images for a page like this would be rather difficult :)), but also letting us easily distinguish the phrases in a certain way. My initial idea was to have one color for each period in Latin—perhaps one for pre-Classical Latin in light green (Old Latin: 2nd century BC and earlier), one for Classical Latin in light yellow (Golden and Silver Age Latin: 1st centuries BC and AD), one for post-Classical Latin in light red (Vulgar, Medieval, and Renaissance Latin: 2nd century AD to 16th century AD), one for New Latin in light blue (Modern Latin: 17th to 21st century AD), and one for Latin of an unknown period in light grey. But if that would be too difficult to research, or if the time period wouldn't be helpful enough to justify the color changes, or anything like that, there are plenty of other options for color-coding, like by subject matter (one color for Ecclesiastical Latin, one for medical Latin, one for classification Latin, one for legal Latin, one for Latin proverbs, one for logical Latin, one for joke Latin...), though the problem with that would be the many Latin terms that might not fit into any easy category, or the possibility of overlaps... - Silence 02:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Beautiful work! I know I said I'd do something about it a while back, but I'm glad I never got around to it, because this solution is much better! — HorsePunchKid→ 龜 2005-12-11 08:29:45 Z
I think the table looks horrible. The very limited horizontal width causes the phrases to be broken across multiple lines with only a few words on each line, reducing the readability. Also, verical lines in tables is typographically bad practice. – Peter J. Acklam 16:24, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Added de gustibus non est disputandum. Please edit as advisable. -- 31 december 2005
This is kind of annoying, being redirected to a page from the word In toto to this page but not being able to find the definition of the expression I'm looking for, might as well not put a redirection in that case. 24.201.116.26 14:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Eyeglass prescription article linked to from this page? It's down at the bottom. -- 68.63.238.53 04:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I strongly suggest remerging this list back into a single article. That article may be larger than our articles usually are, but the current way of dividing it is completely arbitrary and has no parallel in any other article I've ever seen. Deco 20:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there any need for a Manu propria article? The phrase is listed here already. -- Grocer 23:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Should we cross-reference phrases that are known by more than one common form? In other words, thus far, we only have one entry per phrase; none of the phrases just say "This is a misspelling/variant of X, see X", because that would cause a lot of bloat and redundant entries. However, it might make it easier for people to find entries that are listed in a part of the alphabet they aren't aware it belongs in (for example, the many variants of Ave Caesar morituri te salutant, starting with everything from "morituri" to "nos"). Should we include "empty entries" just to direct users to the actual entry? And if so, how should we format them? I don't think it's a good idea to make them look like normal entries, and I absolutely don't think we should repeat the information from the real entry in the disambig-entries, rather than just telling them where the right entry is briefly ("See X"). But how to handle it? Should we italicize the whole line? Avoid bolding the initial phrase? Or what? Should we provide a translation of the phrase even though it's not the main entry, then use the "Notes" space to just say "See X" for the main entry? Or what? - Silence 14:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Could anyone more learned than I provide a translation of the text on the engraving of Pocahontas made in her lifetime. The engraving illustrates the Pocahontas article, but the text is reproduced below for your convenience. I've made a first attempt at it, but my Latin is almost non-existent. Note that in the inscription, there is a horizontal line above the L of ALS. "MATOAKA ALS REBECCA FILIA POTENTISS : PRINC : POWHATANI IMP:VIRGINIÆ." My attempt is: "Matoaka, also (known as) Rebecca, daughter of the powerful [leader, head, chief, master, superior, director, ruler, prince, sovereign,emperor] of the Powhatan empire, Virginia." Thanks - WLD 10:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to recommend this site http://www.just-quotes.com for an external link that has an excellent source of searchable universal Latin proverbs and Latin bible proverbs and Latin phrases with English translations. RobertTB 21:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The term s.v. redirects to this page... why? s.v. is not in the list of abbreviated Latin terms. Am I missing something? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rmagill ( talk • contribs) 22:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC).