This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of Latin American subnational entities by Human Development Index redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This data is interesting for comparing the relative wealth of different parts of Latin America, but I question its accuracy. How is it possible that a nation's HDI can be greater than the HDI of any of its component parts. Some of this data is the same as the article List of Argentine provinces by HDI, which is highly suspect, since it lists every Argentine province (and the city of Buenos Aires) as having a lower HDI than that of the overall nation. Jesusmariajalisco ( talk) 02:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Here is the province of Buenos Aires's HDI from 2001: http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/nationalreports/latinamericathecaribbean/argentina/Argentina_Buenos%20Aires_2004_2005_sp.pdf In the page 293 says that in the year 2001 the HDI is 0,854. In the Wikipedia article says that the Buenos Aires province HDI in the years of 2000 and 2002 are 0,7816 and 0,7656. The source is the UN itself. I Think we shoud remove these wrong data. The two links sources of this page don't work. Please TownDown try to be more moderate. Thank's.--Italodal (talk) 20:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Italodal ( talk • contribs)
TownDown, stop to change this page without use the talk page. I would be forced to report you. Here the source why we can't uses the data from Argentina: ¿Se puede comparar el IDHP entre diferentes países?A diferencia del IDH, el IDHP sólo se elaboró para estimar discrepancias regionales en nuestro país. Distintos países han construidos distintas versiones del IDH, adaptándolas a las peculiaridades de los distintos contextos. http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html, in English : Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts. -- Italodal ( talk) 18:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello TownDown how are you ? Here is the source why we can't use the data from Argentina: ¿Se puede comparar el IDHP entre diferentes países?A diferencia del IDH, el IDHP sólo se elaboró para estimar discrepancias regionales en nuestro país. Distintos países han construidos distintas versiones del IDH, adaptándolas a las peculiaridades de los distintos contextos. http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html. In English : Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts. The UN global report, and the reports of the other countries (except Argentina and Chile) use the GDP per capita (PPP) . In other way Chile and Argentina use the average income per capita, and not the GDP per capita (PPP). I think we should to remove the data of Argentina and Chile, or delete the article, because the information is wrong. Thank's. -- Italodal ( talk) 23:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Nothing is wrong here, all reports are correct, the article clearly says how reports are used, this article is not part of the United Nations statistics division and we can use all data required here from Argentina, Japan or anything else, if it is necessary, and Argentina is part of Latin America and we have its hdi report here, that's why it works so well for everyone.-- TownDown ( talk) 07:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
The HDI is a index that contains 3 variables, education, life expectancy and income. In the case of the income we have differences between the composition of the HDI of countries. For exemple, the UN list uses the GDP(PPP) per capita, the Argentina list uses the avarege income in Argentinian Pesos, the Chile uses the average income in Chilean Pesos. Costa Rica uses the electricity consumption etc etc. We can only make a ranking with a standard methodology. The UN uses the GDP per capita ajusted by the power purchasing parity. This is the only way to compare the income of different countries without problem in exchange rate, inflation etc. Some countries as Uruguay uses the infant mortality in the composition of its HDI.-- Italodal ( talk) 07:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The others users you mentioned were suspended to use wikipedia for bad behavior. I will require technical review for that list.-- Italodal ( talk) 22:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The page was never protected because me. Are you Prodigynet, TownDown and Jesusmariajalisco the same user? All of you are mexicans, and have the same way to write, and make edits almost in the same time. It's only a question ok? If you know that the reports are made with methodological differences (consumption of electricity in one, GDP in pesos in other, or in another GDP in U.S. dollars) why do you think that every country must be on the same list? The source that I posted clearly says that we can't use the provincial indices for comparison between countries. This source I say: http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html. Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts I don't want to be rude or to boring, but this list doesn't make sense. I love to see a list of Latin Americans countries by HDI, but with a standard methodology and not any table-- Italodal ( talk) 04:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not Argentinian, I'm Brazilian. When I said "you are all mexicans" was because I think that all of you are the same user, and all of you are from Mexico. Are you Prodigynet the same user as TownDown? Jesusmariajalisco, all the reports are right, the problem are to put them in the same list. To compare them we should to use the same indicators (some reports use the electricity consumption to measure the income and others use the average income in pesos). Even that all reports use only the "income average" (this is not the case of the reports of Uruguay or Costa Rica) we couldn't compare them, because in first place we need to adjust the purchasing power parity (for exemple in Peru with 5 pesos you can buy a soda, but in Chile you can only buy a soda with 30 pesos) the exchange rate, the inflation are different from country to country. When the UN make a report to compare differents countries it uses the GDP per capita ajusted per power purchasing parity to avoid inflation and exchange rates. This list doesn't make this. Is because this problem that we can compare provinces of a country, but not to compare provinces of different countries. This also explain why all the Argentina or Chile provinces' HDI are much lower than the entire country. We have a good exemple here in the province of Buenos Aires. In the year of 2001 when we use the original report of this list, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Argentine_provinces_by_Human_Development_Index, the Buenos Aires HDI is 0,782 (in this case it use the average income in pesos). In other way when we use other methodology the Buenos Aires HDI's is 0,854 ( http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/nationalreports/latinamericathecaribbean/argentina/Argentina_Buenos%20Aires_2004_2005_sp.pdf) This is a table built without any technical support, and without any sources in opposed what I already posted: Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html.-- Italodal ( talk) 07:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I read the rules of wikipedia again and I will undo yours changes again because you don't have any source that support what you are saying. In other way I have one reliable source that says what we can't make this table: Can the Provincial Human Development Index (PHDI) be compared between countries? Unlike the Human Development Index (HDI), the PHDI was created only to estimate regional discrepancies within our country. Different countries have created different versions of the HDI, adapting them to the peculiarities of the various contexts. http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html -- Italodal ( talk) 20:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I previously protected this page for edit warring and encouraged the participants to discuss the issue on the talk page. This clearly is not happening and there are long term issues with this page. First, I have no opinion on the issue being disputed at hand and it perhaps better if I don't to remain impartial. Next, it needs to made clear that regardless of how justified users arguments are on the issue and how valid claims of disruptive behaviour is, this is ultimately a content dispute (i.e. a disagreement between established users), and should be resolved as such. However, multiple users have, unintentionally I believe, exacerbated the dispute through inappropriate responses including excessive templating of users, inappropriate accusations of vandalism, and perhaps violations of WP:CIVIL. I think it is better if an amnesty is given for these past actions rather than to dwell on them, and I have decided to unprotect the page to allow normal editing to resume. There will be a lower tolerance from now on however for edit warring, personal attacks e.t.c, and other behaviour which obstructs dispute resolution, and blocks will be issued for repeated violations to any user. Note that administrators can issue blocks for edit warring even if the edit warring occurring does not technically violate the three revert rule. Use of anti-vandalism tools and other reverts without a summary in particular are not on for content dispute reverts, and will not be treated as an exception to the three revert rule. The best way to resolve this is still discussion, this can be via this talk page, but for things like this WP:MEDCAB might work if all users agree. Camaron · Christopher · talk 16:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Italodal you are removing sourced information, unless you can prove it otherwise by providing an alternative source please stop reverting.
Jesusmariajalisco (
talk) 19:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Are you Jesusmariajalisco another sockpupperty?-- Italodal ( talk) 23:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me, I have been editing in Wikipedia since 2007, please don't accuse unless you have proof. Jesusmariajalisco ( talk) 00:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I realized that not only Argentina and Chile use different methodology, but every country has its own methodology. When the UN built its list of HDI, it makes using the GDP per capita adjusted per power purchasing parity to avoid discrepancies in the exchange rate. This list doesn't use a standard methodology, so it should be deleted. See the the source of each country to see that each one uses its own methodology. Furthers explanations can be seen in the above topic.-- Italodal ( talk) 19:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. It must be deleted. You cannot create an article based on the data from different years. Moreover, many countries use different methodologies. It must be deleted. -- 190.118.172.131 ( talk) 04:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
I cannot find the information for Chile listed here in the given source. Pristino ( talk) 23:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This article is hopeless. I tried to redo the article using reliable, cited data, but after doing Uruguay and Colombia I realized the data are NOT comparable across countries. All countries use different methodologies to calculate subnational HDIs, thus making such a list useless.
This article makes no sense and should be deleted. Pristino ( talk) 09:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of Latin American subnational entities by Human Development Index redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This data is interesting for comparing the relative wealth of different parts of Latin America, but I question its accuracy. How is it possible that a nation's HDI can be greater than the HDI of any of its component parts. Some of this data is the same as the article List of Argentine provinces by HDI, which is highly suspect, since it lists every Argentine province (and the city of Buenos Aires) as having a lower HDI than that of the overall nation. Jesusmariajalisco ( talk) 02:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Here is the province of Buenos Aires's HDI from 2001: http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/nationalreports/latinamericathecaribbean/argentina/Argentina_Buenos%20Aires_2004_2005_sp.pdf In the page 293 says that in the year 2001 the HDI is 0,854. In the Wikipedia article says that the Buenos Aires province HDI in the years of 2000 and 2002 are 0,7816 and 0,7656. The source is the UN itself. I Think we shoud remove these wrong data. The two links sources of this page don't work. Please TownDown try to be more moderate. Thank's.--Italodal (talk) 20:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Italodal ( talk • contribs)
TownDown, stop to change this page without use the talk page. I would be forced to report you. Here the source why we can't uses the data from Argentina: ¿Se puede comparar el IDHP entre diferentes países?A diferencia del IDH, el IDHP sólo se elaboró para estimar discrepancias regionales en nuestro país. Distintos países han construidos distintas versiones del IDH, adaptándolas a las peculiaridades de los distintos contextos. http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html, in English : Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts. -- Italodal ( talk) 18:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello TownDown how are you ? Here is the source why we can't use the data from Argentina: ¿Se puede comparar el IDHP entre diferentes países?A diferencia del IDH, el IDHP sólo se elaboró para estimar discrepancias regionales en nuestro país. Distintos países han construidos distintas versiones del IDH, adaptándolas a las peculiaridades de los distintos contextos. http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html. In English : Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts. The UN global report, and the reports of the other countries (except Argentina and Chile) use the GDP per capita (PPP) . In other way Chile and Argentina use the average income per capita, and not the GDP per capita (PPP). I think we should to remove the data of Argentina and Chile, or delete the article, because the information is wrong. Thank's. -- Italodal ( talk) 23:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Nothing is wrong here, all reports are correct, the article clearly says how reports are used, this article is not part of the United Nations statistics division and we can use all data required here from Argentina, Japan or anything else, if it is necessary, and Argentina is part of Latin America and we have its hdi report here, that's why it works so well for everyone.-- TownDown ( talk) 07:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
The HDI is a index that contains 3 variables, education, life expectancy and income. In the case of the income we have differences between the composition of the HDI of countries. For exemple, the UN list uses the GDP(PPP) per capita, the Argentina list uses the avarege income in Argentinian Pesos, the Chile uses the average income in Chilean Pesos. Costa Rica uses the electricity consumption etc etc. We can only make a ranking with a standard methodology. The UN uses the GDP per capita ajusted by the power purchasing parity. This is the only way to compare the income of different countries without problem in exchange rate, inflation etc. Some countries as Uruguay uses the infant mortality in the composition of its HDI.-- Italodal ( talk) 07:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The others users you mentioned were suspended to use wikipedia for bad behavior. I will require technical review for that list.-- Italodal ( talk) 22:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The page was never protected because me. Are you Prodigynet, TownDown and Jesusmariajalisco the same user? All of you are mexicans, and have the same way to write, and make edits almost in the same time. It's only a question ok? If you know that the reports are made with methodological differences (consumption of electricity in one, GDP in pesos in other, or in another GDP in U.S. dollars) why do you think that every country must be on the same list? The source that I posted clearly says that we can't use the provincial indices for comparison between countries. This source I say: http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html. Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts I don't want to be rude or to boring, but this list doesn't make sense. I love to see a list of Latin Americans countries by HDI, but with a standard methodology and not any table-- Italodal ( talk) 04:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not Argentinian, I'm Brazilian. When I said "you are all mexicans" was because I think that all of you are the same user, and all of you are from Mexico. Are you Prodigynet the same user as TownDown? Jesusmariajalisco, all the reports are right, the problem are to put them in the same list. To compare them we should to use the same indicators (some reports use the electricity consumption to measure the income and others use the average income in pesos). Even that all reports use only the "income average" (this is not the case of the reports of Uruguay or Costa Rica) we couldn't compare them, because in first place we need to adjust the purchasing power parity (for exemple in Peru with 5 pesos you can buy a soda, but in Chile you can only buy a soda with 30 pesos) the exchange rate, the inflation are different from country to country. When the UN make a report to compare differents countries it uses the GDP per capita ajusted per power purchasing parity to avoid inflation and exchange rates. This list doesn't make this. Is because this problem that we can compare provinces of a country, but not to compare provinces of different countries. This also explain why all the Argentina or Chile provinces' HDI are much lower than the entire country. We have a good exemple here in the province of Buenos Aires. In the year of 2001 when we use the original report of this list, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Argentine_provinces_by_Human_Development_Index, the Buenos Aires HDI is 0,782 (in this case it use the average income in pesos). In other way when we use other methodology the Buenos Aires HDI's is 0,854 ( http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/nationalreports/latinamericathecaribbean/argentina/Argentina_Buenos%20Aires_2004_2005_sp.pdf) This is a table built without any technical support, and without any sources in opposed what I already posted: Can you compare different of IDHP between countries? Unlike the HDI, the IDHP was only developed to estimate regional discrepancies in our country. Different countries have different versions of the HDI constructed, adapted to the peculiarities of different contexts http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html.-- Italodal ( talk) 07:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I read the rules of wikipedia again and I will undo yours changes again because you don't have any source that support what you are saying. In other way I have one reliable source that says what we can't make this table: Can the Provincial Human Development Index (PHDI) be compared between countries? Unlike the Human Development Index (HDI), the PHDI was created only to estimate regional discrepancies within our country. Different countries have created different versions of the HDI, adapting them to the peculiarities of the various contexts. http://www.undp.org.ar/desarrollohumano/preguntas_frecuentes.html -- Italodal ( talk) 20:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I previously protected this page for edit warring and encouraged the participants to discuss the issue on the talk page. This clearly is not happening and there are long term issues with this page. First, I have no opinion on the issue being disputed at hand and it perhaps better if I don't to remain impartial. Next, it needs to made clear that regardless of how justified users arguments are on the issue and how valid claims of disruptive behaviour is, this is ultimately a content dispute (i.e. a disagreement between established users), and should be resolved as such. However, multiple users have, unintentionally I believe, exacerbated the dispute through inappropriate responses including excessive templating of users, inappropriate accusations of vandalism, and perhaps violations of WP:CIVIL. I think it is better if an amnesty is given for these past actions rather than to dwell on them, and I have decided to unprotect the page to allow normal editing to resume. There will be a lower tolerance from now on however for edit warring, personal attacks e.t.c, and other behaviour which obstructs dispute resolution, and blocks will be issued for repeated violations to any user. Note that administrators can issue blocks for edit warring even if the edit warring occurring does not technically violate the three revert rule. Use of anti-vandalism tools and other reverts without a summary in particular are not on for content dispute reverts, and will not be treated as an exception to the three revert rule. The best way to resolve this is still discussion, this can be via this talk page, but for things like this WP:MEDCAB might work if all users agree. Camaron · Christopher · talk 16:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Italodal you are removing sourced information, unless you can prove it otherwise by providing an alternative source please stop reverting.
Jesusmariajalisco (
talk) 19:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Are you Jesusmariajalisco another sockpupperty?-- Italodal ( talk) 23:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me, I have been editing in Wikipedia since 2007, please don't accuse unless you have proof. Jesusmariajalisco ( talk) 00:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I realized that not only Argentina and Chile use different methodology, but every country has its own methodology. When the UN built its list of HDI, it makes using the GDP per capita adjusted per power purchasing parity to avoid discrepancies in the exchange rate. This list doesn't use a standard methodology, so it should be deleted. See the the source of each country to see that each one uses its own methodology. Furthers explanations can be seen in the above topic.-- Italodal ( talk) 19:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. It must be deleted. You cannot create an article based on the data from different years. Moreover, many countries use different methodologies. It must be deleted. -- 190.118.172.131 ( talk) 04:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
I cannot find the information for Chile listed here in the given source. Pristino ( talk) 23:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This article is hopeless. I tried to redo the article using reliable, cited data, but after doing Uruguay and Colombia I realized the data are NOT comparable across countries. All countries use different methodologies to calculate subnational HDIs, thus making such a list useless.
This article makes no sense and should be deleted. Pristino ( talk) 09:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)