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I really wanted to have this page, although it is far from being complete now. If you look on a map of the Holy Roman Empire, you see hundreds of single states, as in a totally confusing mosaic. So it would be nice to put things in order.
I didn't add a column for the status of a state (kingdom, duchy etc.), because this changed too often for most of the states. For some foundations or dissolutions I found more than one date; someone who knows a lot about medieval history should check, which is correct. I hope, that this will become a helpful page later, when more than just a few arbitrarily chosen states are included in the list. --
Cordyph 21:12 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)
Hmm...this is a good idea, but as it is now, rather confusing. I have a few ideas, but I thought I 'd run them by first before doing anything. One way to systematize this would be to list states with votes in the Imperial Diet. On the web, one can find lists of such states as they existed in 1582, in 1792, and in 1803 (as the Empire was about to be dissolved, following all the secularizations of the ecclesiastical states). One could do a list of that sort, but it wouldn't be a list of all states in the Holy Roman Empire at any time, which would, I think, be impossible. In any event, I think the list should be organized in terms of the various types of states - Ecclesiastical Princes, Secular Princes, Counts, and Free Cities. I'll pr(UTC)obably start to change this around if nobody protests within the next few days.
john 19:48 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
I am glad to hear that you are about to start this change, and I am far from protesting against it. Admittedly I am not an expert in the history of the Holy Roman Empire, so I did not achieve more than this confusing list. -- Cordyph 08:25 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
Many of the titles are the loose Engish translation of "von", "of". There is only one instance of "zu", though several of "von", and none of "von und zu". Surely this article needs to clarify which "of"s are actually "zu"s, and why this matters? PML.
Go ahead, if you'd like. I'm not familiar enough with the noble particles to do it myself, but if you know that stuff and want to do it, go for it. john 05:42 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)
To my astonishment Denmark is included in the list as a partial state of the Holy Roman Empire. Could the anonymous user responsible for this addition please explain, if this is a joke or somehow based on truth? -- Cordyph 19:44 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I just moved this article to the new title "Diet of the H.R.E.". The old title "List of states in the H.R.E." has become inappropriate, since this article is not a pure list anymore. -- Cordyph 19:50 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hmm... I don't think either title is ideal. To be honest a "List of states [sic] in the Holy Roman Empire" would be a nearly impossible project, and is not, particularly, what this page does. On the other hand, I agree with Djmutex that "Diet of the Holy Roman Empire" is also not appropriate. One ought to note, though, that the current list is, in fact, not a complete list of reichsunmittelbar territories in the Holy Roman Empire. Perhaps... the article on the Reichstag could incorporate the list of states with voting seats, and the order and all that, and a "List of States in the Holy Roman Empire" could try to actually provide a list of all the reichsunmittelbar territories, and who possessed them. That would be rather onerous, though... john 00:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
P.S. The sic was because none of the territories in the Holy Roman Empire were considered States (Staaten). They were called Länder (as are the present day states in the Federal Republic), which does not imply sovereignty. john 00:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think the title is inappropriate -- we do have some precedents here for what titles should be -- Id' suggest changing this to Roman diet ASAP. (use the "move this page" tool on the menubar. - 豎眩sv
Roman Diet? Are you serious? That would be far worse than either of the other options. john 00:10 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes, that would be a horrible change. I would rather it be moved to the Unholy Non-Roman NotanEmpire. Pizza Puzzle
Oh, shut up Adam. John - anyone- explain yourselves. If you pronouce a condition as if it were fact, you should at least give a rudimentary argument. - 豎眩sv
You should not tell other users to shut up, that is a direct violation of the wiki convention on being friendly. I urge you to read Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire. Pizza Puzzle
The Diet of the Holy Roman Empire met in various German cities, and the Holy Roman Empire ought not be confused with the Roman Empire. Further, this distinction has little to do with the argument Cordyph and Djmutex were having, which was more about whether this article was appropriately titled after the Diet (Reichstag) at all, rather than what an article about the Diet should be called. john 00:17 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I seem to have been laboring under some unknown error. Thank you.- 豎眩sv
The present title is probably not ideal, but "List of states..." appears to be a worse title. This article does not correspond with our other "List of..." articles, which are mostly pure lists including links to other articles. That is, what this article originally was, but now it is not a pure list anymore. But if one of you can find a better title for this article, go ahead and move the page again. -- Cordyph 08:21 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Thank you for this most interesting set of pages, which I have been discussing with a friend at the Duke's Head pub, Richmond Hill, London: just to let you know you are doing a good job,. CJS.
I liked to read this ineresting article about the last period of the Holy Roman Empire, but i found some mistakes. For example, i didnt' find the vote of the Free Imperial City of Regensburg (it had a vote in the circle of Bavaria, as the seat of the Reichstag). Moreover, this article doesn't explain the situation of the Duchy of Burgundy (in the 18th ita was under the Austrian sovereignty from 1714). I read, finally, confusion about some personal votes of the Counts' Counsil (as counts von Traun, i'm sure i've never find any seat and vote in the Diet for this austrian noble family).
I think that Kingdom of Hungary shouldn't be mentioned in this article because it was never a part of Holy Roman Empire.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of Imperial Diet participants (1792) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I really wanted to have this page, although it is far from being complete now. If you look on a map of the Holy Roman Empire, you see hundreds of single states, as in a totally confusing mosaic. So it would be nice to put things in order.
I didn't add a column for the status of a state (kingdom, duchy etc.), because this changed too often for most of the states. For some foundations or dissolutions I found more than one date; someone who knows a lot about medieval history should check, which is correct. I hope, that this will become a helpful page later, when more than just a few arbitrarily chosen states are included in the list. --
Cordyph 21:12 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)
Hmm...this is a good idea, but as it is now, rather confusing. I have a few ideas, but I thought I 'd run them by first before doing anything. One way to systematize this would be to list states with votes in the Imperial Diet. On the web, one can find lists of such states as they existed in 1582, in 1792, and in 1803 (as the Empire was about to be dissolved, following all the secularizations of the ecclesiastical states). One could do a list of that sort, but it wouldn't be a list of all states in the Holy Roman Empire at any time, which would, I think, be impossible. In any event, I think the list should be organized in terms of the various types of states - Ecclesiastical Princes, Secular Princes, Counts, and Free Cities. I'll pr(UTC)obably start to change this around if nobody protests within the next few days.
john 19:48 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
I am glad to hear that you are about to start this change, and I am far from protesting against it. Admittedly I am not an expert in the history of the Holy Roman Empire, so I did not achieve more than this confusing list. -- Cordyph 08:25 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
Many of the titles are the loose Engish translation of "von", "of". There is only one instance of "zu", though several of "von", and none of "von und zu". Surely this article needs to clarify which "of"s are actually "zu"s, and why this matters? PML.
Go ahead, if you'd like. I'm not familiar enough with the noble particles to do it myself, but if you know that stuff and want to do it, go for it. john 05:42 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)
To my astonishment Denmark is included in the list as a partial state of the Holy Roman Empire. Could the anonymous user responsible for this addition please explain, if this is a joke or somehow based on truth? -- Cordyph 19:44 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I just moved this article to the new title "Diet of the H.R.E.". The old title "List of states in the H.R.E." has become inappropriate, since this article is not a pure list anymore. -- Cordyph 19:50 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hmm... I don't think either title is ideal. To be honest a "List of states [sic] in the Holy Roman Empire" would be a nearly impossible project, and is not, particularly, what this page does. On the other hand, I agree with Djmutex that "Diet of the Holy Roman Empire" is also not appropriate. One ought to note, though, that the current list is, in fact, not a complete list of reichsunmittelbar territories in the Holy Roman Empire. Perhaps... the article on the Reichstag could incorporate the list of states with voting seats, and the order and all that, and a "List of States in the Holy Roman Empire" could try to actually provide a list of all the reichsunmittelbar territories, and who possessed them. That would be rather onerous, though... john 00:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
P.S. The sic was because none of the territories in the Holy Roman Empire were considered States (Staaten). They were called Länder (as are the present day states in the Federal Republic), which does not imply sovereignty. john 00:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think the title is inappropriate -- we do have some precedents here for what titles should be -- Id' suggest changing this to Roman diet ASAP. (use the "move this page" tool on the menubar. - 豎眩sv
Roman Diet? Are you serious? That would be far worse than either of the other options. john 00:10 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes, that would be a horrible change. I would rather it be moved to the Unholy Non-Roman NotanEmpire. Pizza Puzzle
Oh, shut up Adam. John - anyone- explain yourselves. If you pronouce a condition as if it were fact, you should at least give a rudimentary argument. - 豎眩sv
You should not tell other users to shut up, that is a direct violation of the wiki convention on being friendly. I urge you to read Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire. Pizza Puzzle
The Diet of the Holy Roman Empire met in various German cities, and the Holy Roman Empire ought not be confused with the Roman Empire. Further, this distinction has little to do with the argument Cordyph and Djmutex were having, which was more about whether this article was appropriately titled after the Diet (Reichstag) at all, rather than what an article about the Diet should be called. john 00:17 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I seem to have been laboring under some unknown error. Thank you.- 豎眩sv
The present title is probably not ideal, but "List of states..." appears to be a worse title. This article does not correspond with our other "List of..." articles, which are mostly pure lists including links to other articles. That is, what this article originally was, but now it is not a pure list anymore. But if one of you can find a better title for this article, go ahead and move the page again. -- Cordyph 08:21 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Thank you for this most interesting set of pages, which I have been discussing with a friend at the Duke's Head pub, Richmond Hill, London: just to let you know you are doing a good job,. CJS.
I liked to read this ineresting article about the last period of the Holy Roman Empire, but i found some mistakes. For example, i didnt' find the vote of the Free Imperial City of Regensburg (it had a vote in the circle of Bavaria, as the seat of the Reichstag). Moreover, this article doesn't explain the situation of the Duchy of Burgundy (in the 18th ita was under the Austrian sovereignty from 1714). I read, finally, confusion about some personal votes of the Counts' Counsil (as counts von Traun, i'm sure i've never find any seat and vote in the Diet for this austrian noble family).
I think that Kingdom of Hungary shouldn't be mentioned in this article because it was never a part of Holy Roman Empire.