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Here are the refs:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gFfaD4JdZhwC&pg=PA45&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy
http://books.google.com/books?id=7SL1bVtfP08C&pg=PA93&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy
http://books.google.com/books?id=_JDOVMDi8d4C&pg=PA601&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy&lr=
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qzc8OeuSXFMC&pg=PA464&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy&lr=
main book:
Here are the Refs from French Academics:
Page 128 http://books.google.com/books?id=Mbfm1_q_zqQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
Page 168 http://books.google.com/books?id=AYF4LIAMRMIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
Page 18 http://books.google.com/books?id=NG9DRSg5dYMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZD_1zbyU5jsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
Page 35 http://books.google.com/books?id=tky-kvB0rdAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 23 http://books.google.com/books?id=YJsMaEvgZzUC&pg=PP1&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 28 http://books.google.com/books?id=0hYWzuecyHMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Pge 167 http://books.google.com/books?id=560fPSrm2hwC&pg=PA165&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 246.Enclodopedia http://books.google.com/books?id=MziRd4ddZz4C&pg=PA246&dq=Charles+D+Orleans+recognized+Henry+as+King+of+France&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 129 http://books.google.com/books?id=tplzx-OCEicC&pg=PA36&dq=Joan+of+Arc+and+Henry+VI&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 7 http://books.google.com/books?id=eo9RW7jWxyMC&pg=PA7&dq=Joan+of+Arc+and+Henry+VI&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 206-217 http://books.google.com/books?id=_Cc9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA206&dq=Charles+VII+of+France.The+Hundred+Years+War&lr=&as_brr=3
Thus Henry VI IS King of France.Wikepedia only accept what is accepted by historions as you said.Your arguement that Henry VI is not a French King is Original Research.
Hello there.I see you are interested in the Hundred Years War.Regarding the Treaty of Troyes.You have to understand that Charles VII usurped legal authority from Charles VI and refused a Courts Summon to Paris.This is constructed as Lese-Majesty(Injury to the Soveriegn) or Treason to Charles VI whom was the King of France and the person whom Charles VII refused.He was found guilty by a legal summons in Paris or a lit-de justice.This renderd him legaly incapable of Succestion So Charles VII disinheritence was legal through the lit-de justice not the Treaty of Troyes.Now we have just proven that Charles VII was legaly dissinherited and legaly incapable of succestion so thus he has to right to be removed from the entire Dynastic succestion.Problem no.1 Gone.Problem no.2 was the Salic Law OR Law Sallica.Salic Law states that no women can succeded or a claim through a Women.However Salic Law had no contrevention or any attack on the Treaty of Troyes.This is proven in one of the Clauses that says Henry(Henry V) shall take Isebaue(Queen of France) and Charles VI as Father and Mother and unto Henry his son.This meant that Henry was Adopted Son so there was no contrevention of Salic Law.As the Succestion of thrones clearly says the Sons of the French King can inherit in the succestion.Henry was a son of Charles VI.Now we just proved there s no contrevention of Salic Law.Problem No.3 The French Aruement of Alienating the Throne to Foriegners and the arguement that Charles VI was mad when the Treaty was concluded.Here is a predescent to refute this.In terms expressly provided the realms of England and France must ratify this.In current jurisict theroy this was the safest way in which the laws of a country could be changed and inncorperated was by the power of the whole people and there soveriegn(collective or personal) and this ratification was indeed done:was that not the manner in which the power and authority of the Roman Republic tranferd to the Emperors in Antique Days.Armed with this awsome predescent this was in a way altering the fundemental law of succestion that Civilians could understand and defend.To butress further the legal binding force of the Treaty oaths were sought independently by the lords.One obvious example was the Duke of Burgundy.Anyone whom was in breach of these oaths were consderd traitoirs.Philips point of view at the Congrass of Arass however was to have his oath to the Treaty declared invalid.The only way he could break his oath was through a papal legate which he later recieved to break his oath from the treaty.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qv9PlGCLy4YC&pg=PA235&dq=the+legality+of+the+treaty+of+troyes
Also please take to thee talkpage first because no-offence your edits were clearly wrong.Goodbye.-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 12:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello again.Unfortunitly there is no historion whom can agree with you that no french author believed both Henry VI and Charles VII were kings of France.Henry VI had his french supporters as did charles like the Burgundians,John V of Brittiny,The university of Paris and Charles the duke of Orleons.You ahould also know alot of the nobels whom swore an oath to agree to the terms of the treaty of troyes and Amiens 1423 were French.The French administration at Paris was also filled with French cannons and even the local populace from 1422-1432 were Englis supporters.During the early regency under Bedford he had tried to recieve public oppinion of Henry VI.It wasnt until heavy taxes were introduced that the french incurtions began to rise,most noteably the revolt of Pays-de Caux in 1436.French nationailism under Joan of Arc also started to bring back frenchmen to the side of Charles VII.There was even a new minted coin in 1422 symbolising the Dual-Monarchy in which Henry VI was holding a quaterd-shield of the English lion and the French lillie was introduced to France.The book of Hours was also commisioned by Bedford to show the ties between Burgundy and England.In least both Henry VI and Charles VII were Kings of France in there own possetions and were anknowledged by Frenchmen in there areas.Its nonscence to say that Frenchmen didnt anknowledge Henry VI in his reign as King of Both England and France.No historion can deny the fact that both Charles and Henry were Kings in there own french possetions and I had already proven that French academics also anknowledge Henry as bieng King in his own French possetions.The only reason why most lists dont add Henry VI in the list of French Kings has nothing to do with nationailism but the fact that Charles VII was closer in blood to Charles VI as further explained by this book.
Page 23: http://books.google.com/books?id=kFSqKelemSMC&pg=PP1&dq=the+contending+Kingdoms#v=onepage&q=&f=false.-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 13:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello there my friend.I find what you are explaining to me completely rationail and I am begining to agree about the view on the adoption.Yes you are correct,if Henry was adopted and married catherine then that would mean he would have married his sister,But I think we have to reliase salic law still dosent have anything to do with the Treaty of Troyes .Think about it,when Henry was adressed in the clauses as Heir of France this could mean that he was always the Heir of Charles and so the treaty didnt mention where Henrys claim came from thus it fudged the past.A complete masterwork in English diplomacy because just as Henry had to accept valios kingship to his heir so did the french had to accept his anccestral rights.The English claim througe Isebaue is vauge since interpetations would undermine either Henry or Charles.In the meantime also Normandy was virtually under English controll and what better way did Henry not show susspection of holding a seperate claim from his preddescesors when he didnt take the title Duke of Normandy.As did the Treaty of Troyes skillfully avoided the mention of Henry's existing claim so to was his marriage dealt with sensitively.In order to avoid the impresstion that Henry had been Heir by virtue of Catherine's rights.The first clause stated that: By the alliance of marriage made for the benifet of the said peace,he had become the son of charles and Isebaue and would honour us and our consort as father and mother as seen fitting.This was not how Henry became heir since as we have just proven this was the arrangement made by the Heir and the King.Henry's title as Heir fortified his claim and he did not need anyone else to give him that.Therefore where is the contrevention of salic law if he was a male and his title gave him the claim without derieving his claim from anywhere else.Catherine was unimportant.His Heirs didnt have to be from her and I will repeat again this was an arrangement made by the Heir with the King.Also Catherine was given a dowry from both England and France.The latter when Henry died and given to the value of 20,000 Ecus.Another aspect of the treaty is the ratification as obliged by the Treaty.This was indeed done when all the leading french officials came to ratify the treaty and according to current juriscist law the safest way in which a countrys laws can be changed and incorrperated into a new one was by a ratification.Oaths were also taken seperately by French nobels which bounded them to Henry and his Heir and so the Treaty was water-tight.The oaths could only be broken by a papal legate.Now lets deal with the dissinheritence of the dauphine.Charles VII usurped legal authority from Charles VI by taking illegal de facto controll of the south.In addition he was responcible for the murder of Montreui in 1419 and refused a courts summon to Paris which was issued from 1420.Unsuprisingly he refused the courts summon which was also treason and in 1421 in the abscence of the dauphine the lit-de justice found Charles so called dauphine guilty of Lese-Majesty and was orderd to dissinheritence and bannishment from the Kingdom of France.The legal proccedings gave facts and satisfactory proofs to the condemnation of the dauphine unlike the rumour of Charles bieng a bastard.His dissinheritence would in respect have to be considerd legal outside the treaty.
Regarding the disscution in general there are no majour facts which we both dont agree upon.I respect your oppinion as you to towards me.You asked me to give you a list of french kings in which Henry is mentioned.Months ago I was asked the same question by another user.The truth is that there is no official list where Henry VI is mentioned in it.That does not mean however that internationaly Henry VI is not King of France.The reason that Charles VII was closer in blood to Charles VI and thats is why he is listed in the official regnal template as the Heir of him also to the fact that Henry VI lost France in 1453.I do not think Enclodopedias to be bias but rather very vauge in details but neutral.In the text of my enclyopedia it mentiones that Henry VI was ruling in Northen France according to the right from the Treaty of Troyes But it neither says Charles was the only King of France since they were both claimaints or else the enclopedia could be accused of bieng bias in its text.My other Enclodopedia's say that Henry ruled in northen France against the french king Charles VII but if he ruled in Northen France that still means he was de facto King in the North.Some enclopedia's even reffer to both Charles and Henry as claimaints.I think in conclution we should leave Henry in this list even if he dosent show in the oficial regnal template because I still didnt see any French oppinion on Henry VI yet.Both Henry and Charles were claimaints and Kings in there own territory.God bless you and lookinjg forward to further disscution.-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 17:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Encyclopedias:
-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 17:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Could someone tell me if in the History of England taught in the United Kingdom Henry VI of England is considered to have been a king of France? And if so, was he king of the whole of France or only the part occupied by the English? We know what contemporaries of Henry VI thought, but how have English historians treated the subject? Please do not cite any Wikipedia examples. Just curious. Frania W. ( talk) 17:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello Frania.Our History book at school does not mention the Hundred Years Wars.Documentries on the Hitory channel by David Starky and other similiar programs call him a King of France plus these books.You should notice I am not the only one to bring up the disscution that Henry was also a king of France.Scroll up and you will find propisitions to add him as a french King.Now let me ask you a question.So far you have done nothing execpt originial research in your aquisation that Henry VI is not King of France.So can you not give me hard scholary evidence in which your POV is supported?
Thank You and goodbye Frania.--
HENRY V OF ENGLAND (
talk)
15:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Students Encyclopedia:
http://student.britannica.com/comptons/article-202002/Henry-kings-of-England
http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/henry6.htm
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/henry6.html
-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 15:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I have a problem: the article states that Louis XVI was "King until August 10, 1792", but wasn't the monarchy only suspened on August 10, and wasn't it formally abolished by the National Convention on 21 September 1792? I propose using the latter in the former's place. Thoughts? -- Jack1755 ( talk) 19:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Frania, you never cease to amaze me with the swiftness of your replies! Are you glued to the 'paedia, like me? Louis XVI of France dates his deposition as the end of his reign. -- Jack1755 ( talk) 22:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Merovingians and the first Carolingians kings are missing. Check the french article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.172.141.127 ( talk) 22:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
"Three of the twelve kings during the 147 year Carolingian Dynasty, Odo, his brother Robert I and Robert's son in law Raoul/Rudolph, were not from the Carolingian Dynasty but from the rival Robertian Dynasty, named for Robert the Strong (father of Odo and Robert I)." Raoul was indeed a son in law of Robert I, however he was not a Robertian, he was a Bosonid. In fact, he was the only king of France who was not coming from the Merovingians, the Carolingian or the Robertians/ Capetians. 86.206.184.13 ( talk) 21:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Outside sources include French/Frankish kings back to Clodion...why does this article start at 840? Ryoung122 11:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
When did de France become the surname borne by the children of French kings? Was de France the surname of medieval French princes? 92.36.165.7 ( talk) 19:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
The addition of Henry VI of England as king of France (with dates overlapping those of Charles VII) seems strange, and I see it has already been tagged. I have never seen a French (or other non-English) source which considered him king of France, only English sources seem to do so. I have looked at the avalanche of links posted here in support of that claim, and actually found several arguments contradicting it:
The legality of the Treaty of Troyes has always been questioned for several reasons: signatory Charles VI of France was mad, and French jurists considered it conflicted with a broad interpretation of Salic law ( http://books.google.ie/books?id=qLKF0LCPlsIC&pg=PA63&dq=The+Treaty+of+Troyes+and+Salic+Law&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=The%20Treaty%20of%20Troyes%20and%20Salic%20Law&f=false). But beyond that, Duke Philip of Burgundy had his oath declared invalid in 1435, supported by the authority of a papal legate ( http://books.google.com/books?id=Qv9PlGCLy4YC&pg=PA235&dq=the+legality+of+the+treaty+of+troyes#v=onepage&q=the%20legality%20of%20the%20treaty%20of%20troyes&f=false). As such, legally speaking, the treaty was not simply overturned, it was declared to have been invalid from the start. Also, the argument that Henry V became the son of Charles VI with the treaty is invalid, he was simply stylized as such. As user Cusio already remarked, he could not have been actually adopted, as that would have rendered his marriage incestuous, but also made him lose his claim to the throne of England. Finally, the coronation of Henry VI as king of France was a sham. He was crowned in Paris in 1431 (and not in Reims, using the vial of holy oil, as all kings of France had since Clovis to legitimately become king), two years AFTER Charles VII had already been crowned king of France (in Reims this time, with holy oil and everything). http://books.google.ie/books?id=YJsMaEvgZzUC&pg=PA98&dq=Henry+VI+of+England+is+King+of+France+pretender&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=Henry%20VI%20of%20England%20is%20King%20of%20France%20pretender&f=false
I therefore don’t see how he could have been considered king of France de jure. De facto, he was never really king of France either, as he never ruled over more than the parts of France he was occupying, while the Valois still controlled the rest.
But most importantly, he is not considered king of France from the French or international point of view. Cusio already provided a link which explains the French position ( http://www.roi-france.com/perso_fiche.php?i=2299), and a simple Google search will give you several lists of kings of France from the French perspective, here are just a few of them: http://www.histoiredefrance.net/roisdefrance.php http://jeanjacques.villemag.free.fr/ http://www.thucydide.com/realisations/utiliser/chronos/rois_france.htm (By the way, all those also support my proposal above to include the Merovingians and Carolingians). Finally, Henry VI of England was never acknowledged as a king of France, as he would have been Henry II of France, a name later assumed by Henry of Valois, son of Francis I.
I therefore propose to remove Henry VI from the list, as the Lancaster claim to the throne of France is already explained in the introduction.
Drilou ( talk) 18:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
"If Henry VI was lawfully King of France, then every king and queen regnant of England and Great Britain until George IV was also legally monarch of France." Not neccessarily. Henry VI of England's claims were based on his mother's descent and his father's recognition as Heir of France, not on his distant ancestress's claims. But Henry VI of England has no descendants today and his claim was not inherited by the Tudors. The Tudors and their successors based their claim on their descent from Isabella of France. Of course, descent is not the only thing that makes someone a lawful monarchy; if it were, King Francis II would now be sitting in Buckingham Palace and King Louis XX would be sitting in the Palace of Versailles. Surtsicna ( talk) 10:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
It's not true that Henry VI was only recognized in the areas militarily controlled by the English; until 1435, he was recognized in the Burgundian lands, as well. I think he was also recognized for a time in Brittany - the duke had signed the Treaty of Troyes - at least for a while. But, basically, Henry VI was recognized by Charles VI as his successor and actually controlled large portions of France, including Paris. I think it's reasonable to at least mention him on the page. john k ( talk) 19:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is the infobox headed with the shield of the Empire(s), which existed for a total of 28 years, rather than that of the Kingdom, which existed thirty times as long? Because the Empire was France's last monarchy? — Tamfang ( talk) 08:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
France moderne is best. It is emblematic of French royalty as a whole, it seems. Seven Letters 18:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
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Henry III was never simultaneously King of Poland and France, at least according to my understanding: He abdicated/vacated the Polish throne when he was named King of France. I don't know that he ever used the title or style "King of France and Poland". He was King of Poland and then he was King of France. This is different from the various Kings who were simultaneously King of France and Navarre, or maybe even Francis II as King of France and King of Scotland (jure uxoris). I also have question whether or not Francis ever used the style "King of France and Scotland" or maintained distinct styles for his two roles. Does anyone have sources on this? A source which shows the style used by Henry III and Francis II would be helpful here. Did Henry ever use the style "King of France and Poland" or did Francis ever use "King of France and Scotland?" -- Jayron 32 03:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Please don't delete Theuderic I, Theudebert I, Guntram, Theudebald &/or Cholomer. They are both French Monarchs. And please don't delete Pharamond as Chlodio's father and replacing that blank with Theudemeres. Pharamond is really Chlodio's father. Thanks. Cmach7 (talk).
The usage of this term seems to be dated. A Google Books search shows only a small number of scholarly works using it as a proper name that don't predate the 1920s. Another search for Capetians and 1328 seems to indicate that it is more common among scholars these days to refer to this group simply as the Capetians (without further description). Agricolae ( talk) 23:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Is there a reason Theuderic IV is not included in the main list? As far as I can tell, the criterion for including Merovingian kings in the list is that they were called 'king of the Franks', which Theuderic IV was. His absence is particularly confusing since he is mentioned in the text that precedes Childeric III. Aiwendil42 ( talk) 05:02, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
CarstenN ( talk) 10:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)Since 5th June 774 until his death, Charlemagne (Charles I.) had the official title "King of the Francs and Langobards" (Latin: Rex Francorum et Langobardorum), after he had defeated the Langobardian king Desideratus that same year and annected the Langobardian kingdom in Italy.
Later on, the title of the king of Langobards was connected with the title of the king of Italy.
Of the Kings of the (West-)Franks, Charles II. was King of Italy and King of the Langobards from 875 - 877, and Charles the Fat was King of the Langobards and King of Italy from 879 - 887.
I think the complete titles of these kings should be mentioned. CarstenN ( talk) 10:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please tell me why Louis VIII "the Lion" of France is listed as a king of England (disputed claimant) in the list of English kings, he briefly ruled about half of England from 1216 to 1217 and was proclaimed (not crowned) king at St Paul's cathedral and is rendered mute by the Treaty of Lambeth but there is no mention in the French list of kings of Henry V who controlled half of France and by the Treaty of Troyes is recognised as the heir and regent of France and Henry VI who was crowned king at Notre Dame de Paris on 16 December 1431 and is listed as king of France (disputed) on his page reigning from 21 October 1422 to 19 October 1453. I have no problem of Louis being mentioned in the list of English kings, it just seems wrong that there is none of at least Henry VI in the French list being crowned and all. I am talking about the list of kings not the summary. LordWiltshire1529 ( talk) 14:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I've added Henry VI but it'll probably be removed so at least I tried... LordWiltshire1529 ( talk) 21:13, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Although a FL, the inline citation and referencing is woefully inadequate. I'm going to try and reference the lead and probably give the formatting of the 'notes/references' section a little bit of a rework. Sotakeit ( talk) 09:13, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Odo of Paris was not a member of the Carolingian dynasty.. -- Director ( talk) 02:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Rudolph (Raoul) also wasn't a Carolinigan. He's a Bosonid. -- Director ( talk) 12:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Per MOS:HEADINGS:
Citations should not be placed within or on the same line as section and subsection headings.
Could the references currently appearing in the headings please be relocated somewhere more appropriate? — sroc 💬 15:34, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
An anonymous editor, 167.78.4.19, just added an extra column to the Merovingian dynasty table. Titled "death", it seems the details of the death of each king is what the editor intended to add. However just one king's death has been explained and the column has not been added to any other sections. The details of each of their deaths can be found on their respective articles and so I think the column should be added to the other tables and details added in. This column is also used on List of English Monarchs so I think it's a consistent, useful edit and so I am going to try and bring in info slowly, but would appreciate help. Thanks, SamWilson989 ( talk) 16:26, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm wondering about a few things. Why is Louis XVII depicted on the list who was never a reigning king and Napoleon II, who arguably and technically was emperor for a few days also, while Louis XIX (Angoulleme) and Henri V (Chambord) who were arguably and technically kings of France as good as Napoleon II was emperor for a couple of days, have to make do with a mere mention in a sentence at the end of a section? Shouldn't Louis XVII be the one with a mere mention instead of the other way around? Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 01:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
I again have removed the chart. In showing now-discounted speculation about descent of the Carolingians and Robertians/Capetians from the Merovingians it gives the false impression of continuity. Agricolae ( talk) 04:09, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
=Louis the Pious= | | Louis Charles the German the Bald | | Charles | the Fat =Louis II= ,---^---, `-----, Robert IV Louis III Carloman | ,---^---, Charles Odo Robert I the Simple | | ,---^---, Louis IV Hugh Emma=Rudolph | | Lothar | | Hugh I Louis V |
The list of Merovingian kings does not have any place in a "List of French monarchs" because they were not, by any stretch, "French". They also have their own page, at Merovingian dynasty, so why duplicate content when doing so only introduces problems. It is also quite fantastical to claim that the kingdom of France "was established" in AD 428. If you must include Western Francia, say it was established in 843, there is some reason to that, but then this was Western Francia, not the kingdom of France. The only reasonable starting point for the kingdom of France (as opposed to the Kingdom of the West Franks) and thus of "French monarchs", would be 987. They didn't even speak a romance language. I mean how deluded are the french to actually believe their weird version of history falsification.
Whatever happened to historical accuracy... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.17.140.107 ( talk) 13:44, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
There are mistakes in the family tree, if someone is able to fix them: "Louis XVII (1795-1815)" should read "Louis XVIII (1814-1815, 1815-1824)" and "Charles X (1815-1830)" should read "Charles X (1824-1830)". They are for now indicated in the caption. 92.184.97.56 ( talk) 08:42, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Following a recent edit changing Charles the Bald from Charles I of the West Franks to Charles II (because Charlemagne is Charles I), the list was left with two Charles IIs because Charles the Fat is Charles II (of the West Franks). This has been discussed before at Talk:Charles the Fat#Numbering, where someone explained that Charles the Bald doesn't have a regnal number as king (although he does as emperor). So I have taken out the number and put a footnote in to explain. We still need a source for this though. But I've been bold for now because we obviously can't have two Charles IIs, and Charles I is clearly wrong. Richard75 ( talk) 12:47, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Sort it out here. Richard75 ( talk) 21:07, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
It is anachronistic to group the kings of France with the kings of the Franks, especially when France begins exactly in 1190 under Philip II. Altanner1991 ( talk) 08:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
This is not the right approach. Wikipedia follows reliable sources, even if we personally think they are wrong or anachronistic, rather than using our own criteria to reach conclusions. Look at some general reference books and see where they begin their lists of kings of France. Agricolae ( talk) 00:14, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Well no, just etymological dictionaries and some familiarity on the topic. Altanner1991 ( talk) 16:35, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Is there any reason the infobox was removed? It also seems the list starts in 843 now. I see there was some discussion about it but I don't see a conclusion. Why 843? Charles the Bald ruled from 840, and held the same title as all his predecessors for over 300 years. Also why is the portrait column missing from all the kings before Hugues Capet? This article seems like a bit of a mess. Drilou ( talk) 21:10, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Is there a reason that Napoleon is named "Napoleon I, the Great" from 1804 to 1814, but when he rules in 1815 he is simply "Napoleon I"? Shouldn't it be consistent? Jenks24 ( talk) 15:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Is there any reason why this article, while including the Merovingian and pre-843 Carolingian dynasties, does not list their kings? Lists of the kings of France usually start with Clodio, or at the latest Clovis (as mentioned in the introduction). That is also the case in the French version of this article. Drilou ( talk) 12:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
As I pointed out before (see above), the section on Merovingian king is seriously misguided, selectively listing or omitting kings:
Str1977 (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
more to the point, the list of Merovingian kings does not have any place in a "List of French monarchs" because they were not, by any stretch, "French". They also have their own page, at Merovingian dynasty, so why duplicate content when doing so only introduces problems. It is also quite fantastical to claim that the kingdom of France "was established" in AD 428. If you must include Western Francia, say it was established in 843, there is some reason to that, but then this was Western Francia, not the kingdom of France. The only reasonable starting point for the kingdom of France (as opposed to the Kingdom of the West Franks) and thus of "French monarchs", would be 987. -- dab (𒁳) 11:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
In 486 Clovis defeated the Soissons, but in 509 he unified the Salian Franks and Ripuarian Franks, becoming the king of all the Franks; does that not correspond with "French monarch" better? If only control of Gaul matters, why not start with Syagrius? -- Go-Chlodio ( talk) 12:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
1. It's not clear to me if this article is about monarchs of what is considered France (geografically) or if it is about monarchs that styled themselves are kings of France (since I see Kings of the Franks and Kings of France which is not the same thing). I think it's important to make such distinction and explain in the introduction. The genealogical tree at the top right of the page is for the period 509-1870. The period from 509 to 843 is primarily Frankish and it's not clear why the article completely bypasses the Merovingian dynasty which included Charles Martel and Charlemagne, only starting to list the Carolingian dynasty with Charles the Bald. If this article is about who ruled as as monarchs of France from a geographical standpoint then it should start from 509 with Clovis I. If this entry is about those who styled themselves as royalty of France then it should start in 1180 with Philip II. The languages and cultures of the people who lived in what is now France since the time the Roman Empire dissipated certainly evolved over time and the world of the Franks became the world of France. I think it's important to explain what this article is about and be consistent with tables, titles, dates and genealogical trees.
2. The note on "popular monarchy" is in both the introduction and the "Titles" section. The two are redundant and only one should be in the article.
3. Under Napoleon I and the First Empire, it should also be noted that Napoleon I did not just rule over France but way beyond after conquering large areas of Europe. It does not have to be a long discussion but one or two lines would be useful.
ICE77 ( talk) 06:54, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
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Here are the refs:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gFfaD4JdZhwC&pg=PA45&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy
http://books.google.com/books?id=7SL1bVtfP08C&pg=PA93&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy
http://books.google.com/books?id=_JDOVMDi8d4C&pg=PA601&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy&lr=
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qzc8OeuSXFMC&pg=PA464&dq=Henry+VI+dual-monarchy&lr=
main book:
Here are the Refs from French Academics:
Page 128 http://books.google.com/books?id=Mbfm1_q_zqQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
Page 168 http://books.google.com/books?id=AYF4LIAMRMIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
Page 18 http://books.google.com/books?id=NG9DRSg5dYMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZD_1zbyU5jsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&as_brr=3
Page 35 http://books.google.com/books?id=tky-kvB0rdAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 23 http://books.google.com/books?id=YJsMaEvgZzUC&pg=PP1&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 28 http://books.google.com/books?id=0hYWzuecyHMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Pge 167 http://books.google.com/books?id=560fPSrm2hwC&pg=PA165&dq=Joan+of+Arc&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 246.Enclodopedia http://books.google.com/books?id=MziRd4ddZz4C&pg=PA246&dq=Charles+D+Orleans+recognized+Henry+as+King+of+France&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 129 http://books.google.com/books?id=tplzx-OCEicC&pg=PA36&dq=Joan+of+Arc+and+Henry+VI&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 7 http://books.google.com/books?id=eo9RW7jWxyMC&pg=PA7&dq=Joan+of+Arc+and+Henry+VI&lr=&as_brr=3
Page 206-217 http://books.google.com/books?id=_Cc9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA206&dq=Charles+VII+of+France.The+Hundred+Years+War&lr=&as_brr=3
Thus Henry VI IS King of France.Wikepedia only accept what is accepted by historions as you said.Your arguement that Henry VI is not a French King is Original Research.
Hello there.I see you are interested in the Hundred Years War.Regarding the Treaty of Troyes.You have to understand that Charles VII usurped legal authority from Charles VI and refused a Courts Summon to Paris.This is constructed as Lese-Majesty(Injury to the Soveriegn) or Treason to Charles VI whom was the King of France and the person whom Charles VII refused.He was found guilty by a legal summons in Paris or a lit-de justice.This renderd him legaly incapable of Succestion So Charles VII disinheritence was legal through the lit-de justice not the Treaty of Troyes.Now we have just proven that Charles VII was legaly dissinherited and legaly incapable of succestion so thus he has to right to be removed from the entire Dynastic succestion.Problem no.1 Gone.Problem no.2 was the Salic Law OR Law Sallica.Salic Law states that no women can succeded or a claim through a Women.However Salic Law had no contrevention or any attack on the Treaty of Troyes.This is proven in one of the Clauses that says Henry(Henry V) shall take Isebaue(Queen of France) and Charles VI as Father and Mother and unto Henry his son.This meant that Henry was Adopted Son so there was no contrevention of Salic Law.As the Succestion of thrones clearly says the Sons of the French King can inherit in the succestion.Henry was a son of Charles VI.Now we just proved there s no contrevention of Salic Law.Problem No.3 The French Aruement of Alienating the Throne to Foriegners and the arguement that Charles VI was mad when the Treaty was concluded.Here is a predescent to refute this.In terms expressly provided the realms of England and France must ratify this.In current jurisict theroy this was the safest way in which the laws of a country could be changed and inncorperated was by the power of the whole people and there soveriegn(collective or personal) and this ratification was indeed done:was that not the manner in which the power and authority of the Roman Republic tranferd to the Emperors in Antique Days.Armed with this awsome predescent this was in a way altering the fundemental law of succestion that Civilians could understand and defend.To butress further the legal binding force of the Treaty oaths were sought independently by the lords.One obvious example was the Duke of Burgundy.Anyone whom was in breach of these oaths were consderd traitoirs.Philips point of view at the Congrass of Arass however was to have his oath to the Treaty declared invalid.The only way he could break his oath was through a papal legate which he later recieved to break his oath from the treaty.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qv9PlGCLy4YC&pg=PA235&dq=the+legality+of+the+treaty+of+troyes
Also please take to thee talkpage first because no-offence your edits were clearly wrong.Goodbye.-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 12:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello again.Unfortunitly there is no historion whom can agree with you that no french author believed both Henry VI and Charles VII were kings of France.Henry VI had his french supporters as did charles like the Burgundians,John V of Brittiny,The university of Paris and Charles the duke of Orleons.You ahould also know alot of the nobels whom swore an oath to agree to the terms of the treaty of troyes and Amiens 1423 were French.The French administration at Paris was also filled with French cannons and even the local populace from 1422-1432 were Englis supporters.During the early regency under Bedford he had tried to recieve public oppinion of Henry VI.It wasnt until heavy taxes were introduced that the french incurtions began to rise,most noteably the revolt of Pays-de Caux in 1436.French nationailism under Joan of Arc also started to bring back frenchmen to the side of Charles VII.There was even a new minted coin in 1422 symbolising the Dual-Monarchy in which Henry VI was holding a quaterd-shield of the English lion and the French lillie was introduced to France.The book of Hours was also commisioned by Bedford to show the ties between Burgundy and England.In least both Henry VI and Charles VII were Kings of France in there own possetions and were anknowledged by Frenchmen in there areas.Its nonscence to say that Frenchmen didnt anknowledge Henry VI in his reign as King of Both England and France.No historion can deny the fact that both Charles and Henry were Kings in there own french possetions and I had already proven that French academics also anknowledge Henry as bieng King in his own French possetions.The only reason why most lists dont add Henry VI in the list of French Kings has nothing to do with nationailism but the fact that Charles VII was closer in blood to Charles VI as further explained by this book.
Page 23: http://books.google.com/books?id=kFSqKelemSMC&pg=PP1&dq=the+contending+Kingdoms#v=onepage&q=&f=false.-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 13:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello there my friend.I find what you are explaining to me completely rationail and I am begining to agree about the view on the adoption.Yes you are correct,if Henry was adopted and married catherine then that would mean he would have married his sister,But I think we have to reliase salic law still dosent have anything to do with the Treaty of Troyes .Think about it,when Henry was adressed in the clauses as Heir of France this could mean that he was always the Heir of Charles and so the treaty didnt mention where Henrys claim came from thus it fudged the past.A complete masterwork in English diplomacy because just as Henry had to accept valios kingship to his heir so did the french had to accept his anccestral rights.The English claim througe Isebaue is vauge since interpetations would undermine either Henry or Charles.In the meantime also Normandy was virtually under English controll and what better way did Henry not show susspection of holding a seperate claim from his preddescesors when he didnt take the title Duke of Normandy.As did the Treaty of Troyes skillfully avoided the mention of Henry's existing claim so to was his marriage dealt with sensitively.In order to avoid the impresstion that Henry had been Heir by virtue of Catherine's rights.The first clause stated that: By the alliance of marriage made for the benifet of the said peace,he had become the son of charles and Isebaue and would honour us and our consort as father and mother as seen fitting.This was not how Henry became heir since as we have just proven this was the arrangement made by the Heir and the King.Henry's title as Heir fortified his claim and he did not need anyone else to give him that.Therefore where is the contrevention of salic law if he was a male and his title gave him the claim without derieving his claim from anywhere else.Catherine was unimportant.His Heirs didnt have to be from her and I will repeat again this was an arrangement made by the Heir with the King.Also Catherine was given a dowry from both England and France.The latter when Henry died and given to the value of 20,000 Ecus.Another aspect of the treaty is the ratification as obliged by the Treaty.This was indeed done when all the leading french officials came to ratify the treaty and according to current juriscist law the safest way in which a countrys laws can be changed and incorrperated into a new one was by a ratification.Oaths were also taken seperately by French nobels which bounded them to Henry and his Heir and so the Treaty was water-tight.The oaths could only be broken by a papal legate.Now lets deal with the dissinheritence of the dauphine.Charles VII usurped legal authority from Charles VI by taking illegal de facto controll of the south.In addition he was responcible for the murder of Montreui in 1419 and refused a courts summon to Paris which was issued from 1420.Unsuprisingly he refused the courts summon which was also treason and in 1421 in the abscence of the dauphine the lit-de justice found Charles so called dauphine guilty of Lese-Majesty and was orderd to dissinheritence and bannishment from the Kingdom of France.The legal proccedings gave facts and satisfactory proofs to the condemnation of the dauphine unlike the rumour of Charles bieng a bastard.His dissinheritence would in respect have to be considerd legal outside the treaty.
Regarding the disscution in general there are no majour facts which we both dont agree upon.I respect your oppinion as you to towards me.You asked me to give you a list of french kings in which Henry is mentioned.Months ago I was asked the same question by another user.The truth is that there is no official list where Henry VI is mentioned in it.That does not mean however that internationaly Henry VI is not King of France.The reason that Charles VII was closer in blood to Charles VI and thats is why he is listed in the official regnal template as the Heir of him also to the fact that Henry VI lost France in 1453.I do not think Enclodopedias to be bias but rather very vauge in details but neutral.In the text of my enclyopedia it mentiones that Henry VI was ruling in Northen France according to the right from the Treaty of Troyes But it neither says Charles was the only King of France since they were both claimaints or else the enclopedia could be accused of bieng bias in its text.My other Enclodopedia's say that Henry ruled in northen France against the french king Charles VII but if he ruled in Northen France that still means he was de facto King in the North.Some enclopedia's even reffer to both Charles and Henry as claimaints.I think in conclution we should leave Henry in this list even if he dosent show in the oficial regnal template because I still didnt see any French oppinion on Henry VI yet.Both Henry and Charles were claimaints and Kings in there own territory.God bless you and lookinjg forward to further disscution.-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 17:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Encyclopedias:
-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 17:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Could someone tell me if in the History of England taught in the United Kingdom Henry VI of England is considered to have been a king of France? And if so, was he king of the whole of France or only the part occupied by the English? We know what contemporaries of Henry VI thought, but how have English historians treated the subject? Please do not cite any Wikipedia examples. Just curious. Frania W. ( talk) 17:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello Frania.Our History book at school does not mention the Hundred Years Wars.Documentries on the Hitory channel by David Starky and other similiar programs call him a King of France plus these books.You should notice I am not the only one to bring up the disscution that Henry was also a king of France.Scroll up and you will find propisitions to add him as a french King.Now let me ask you a question.So far you have done nothing execpt originial research in your aquisation that Henry VI is not King of France.So can you not give me hard scholary evidence in which your POV is supported?
Thank You and goodbye Frania.--
HENRY V OF ENGLAND (
talk)
15:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Students Encyclopedia:
http://student.britannica.com/comptons/article-202002/Henry-kings-of-England
http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/henry6.htm
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/henry6.html
-- HENRY V OF ENGLAND ( talk) 15:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I have a problem: the article states that Louis XVI was "King until August 10, 1792", but wasn't the monarchy only suspened on August 10, and wasn't it formally abolished by the National Convention on 21 September 1792? I propose using the latter in the former's place. Thoughts? -- Jack1755 ( talk) 19:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Frania, you never cease to amaze me with the swiftness of your replies! Are you glued to the 'paedia, like me? Louis XVI of France dates his deposition as the end of his reign. -- Jack1755 ( talk) 22:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Merovingians and the first Carolingians kings are missing. Check the french article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.172.141.127 ( talk) 22:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
"Three of the twelve kings during the 147 year Carolingian Dynasty, Odo, his brother Robert I and Robert's son in law Raoul/Rudolph, were not from the Carolingian Dynasty but from the rival Robertian Dynasty, named for Robert the Strong (father of Odo and Robert I)." Raoul was indeed a son in law of Robert I, however he was not a Robertian, he was a Bosonid. In fact, he was the only king of France who was not coming from the Merovingians, the Carolingian or the Robertians/ Capetians. 86.206.184.13 ( talk) 21:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Outside sources include French/Frankish kings back to Clodion...why does this article start at 840? Ryoung122 11:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
When did de France become the surname borne by the children of French kings? Was de France the surname of medieval French princes? 92.36.165.7 ( talk) 19:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
The addition of Henry VI of England as king of France (with dates overlapping those of Charles VII) seems strange, and I see it has already been tagged. I have never seen a French (or other non-English) source which considered him king of France, only English sources seem to do so. I have looked at the avalanche of links posted here in support of that claim, and actually found several arguments contradicting it:
The legality of the Treaty of Troyes has always been questioned for several reasons: signatory Charles VI of France was mad, and French jurists considered it conflicted with a broad interpretation of Salic law ( http://books.google.ie/books?id=qLKF0LCPlsIC&pg=PA63&dq=The+Treaty+of+Troyes+and+Salic+Law&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=The%20Treaty%20of%20Troyes%20and%20Salic%20Law&f=false). But beyond that, Duke Philip of Burgundy had his oath declared invalid in 1435, supported by the authority of a papal legate ( http://books.google.com/books?id=Qv9PlGCLy4YC&pg=PA235&dq=the+legality+of+the+treaty+of+troyes#v=onepage&q=the%20legality%20of%20the%20treaty%20of%20troyes&f=false). As such, legally speaking, the treaty was not simply overturned, it was declared to have been invalid from the start. Also, the argument that Henry V became the son of Charles VI with the treaty is invalid, he was simply stylized as such. As user Cusio already remarked, he could not have been actually adopted, as that would have rendered his marriage incestuous, but also made him lose his claim to the throne of England. Finally, the coronation of Henry VI as king of France was a sham. He was crowned in Paris in 1431 (and not in Reims, using the vial of holy oil, as all kings of France had since Clovis to legitimately become king), two years AFTER Charles VII had already been crowned king of France (in Reims this time, with holy oil and everything). http://books.google.ie/books?id=YJsMaEvgZzUC&pg=PA98&dq=Henry+VI+of+England+is+King+of+France+pretender&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=Henry%20VI%20of%20England%20is%20King%20of%20France%20pretender&f=false
I therefore don’t see how he could have been considered king of France de jure. De facto, he was never really king of France either, as he never ruled over more than the parts of France he was occupying, while the Valois still controlled the rest.
But most importantly, he is not considered king of France from the French or international point of view. Cusio already provided a link which explains the French position ( http://www.roi-france.com/perso_fiche.php?i=2299), and a simple Google search will give you several lists of kings of France from the French perspective, here are just a few of them: http://www.histoiredefrance.net/roisdefrance.php http://jeanjacques.villemag.free.fr/ http://www.thucydide.com/realisations/utiliser/chronos/rois_france.htm (By the way, all those also support my proposal above to include the Merovingians and Carolingians). Finally, Henry VI of England was never acknowledged as a king of France, as he would have been Henry II of France, a name later assumed by Henry of Valois, son of Francis I.
I therefore propose to remove Henry VI from the list, as the Lancaster claim to the throne of France is already explained in the introduction.
Drilou ( talk) 18:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
"If Henry VI was lawfully King of France, then every king and queen regnant of England and Great Britain until George IV was also legally monarch of France." Not neccessarily. Henry VI of England's claims were based on his mother's descent and his father's recognition as Heir of France, not on his distant ancestress's claims. But Henry VI of England has no descendants today and his claim was not inherited by the Tudors. The Tudors and their successors based their claim on their descent from Isabella of France. Of course, descent is not the only thing that makes someone a lawful monarchy; if it were, King Francis II would now be sitting in Buckingham Palace and King Louis XX would be sitting in the Palace of Versailles. Surtsicna ( talk) 10:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
It's not true that Henry VI was only recognized in the areas militarily controlled by the English; until 1435, he was recognized in the Burgundian lands, as well. I think he was also recognized for a time in Brittany - the duke had signed the Treaty of Troyes - at least for a while. But, basically, Henry VI was recognized by Charles VI as his successor and actually controlled large portions of France, including Paris. I think it's reasonable to at least mention him on the page. john k ( talk) 19:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is the infobox headed with the shield of the Empire(s), which existed for a total of 28 years, rather than that of the Kingdom, which existed thirty times as long? Because the Empire was France's last monarchy? — Tamfang ( talk) 08:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
France moderne is best. It is emblematic of French royalty as a whole, it seems. Seven Letters 18:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
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Henry III was never simultaneously King of Poland and France, at least according to my understanding: He abdicated/vacated the Polish throne when he was named King of France. I don't know that he ever used the title or style "King of France and Poland". He was King of Poland and then he was King of France. This is different from the various Kings who were simultaneously King of France and Navarre, or maybe even Francis II as King of France and King of Scotland (jure uxoris). I also have question whether or not Francis ever used the style "King of France and Scotland" or maintained distinct styles for his two roles. Does anyone have sources on this? A source which shows the style used by Henry III and Francis II would be helpful here. Did Henry ever use the style "King of France and Poland" or did Francis ever use "King of France and Scotland?" -- Jayron 32 03:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Please don't delete Theuderic I, Theudebert I, Guntram, Theudebald &/or Cholomer. They are both French Monarchs. And please don't delete Pharamond as Chlodio's father and replacing that blank with Theudemeres. Pharamond is really Chlodio's father. Thanks. Cmach7 (talk).
The usage of this term seems to be dated. A Google Books search shows only a small number of scholarly works using it as a proper name that don't predate the 1920s. Another search for Capetians and 1328 seems to indicate that it is more common among scholars these days to refer to this group simply as the Capetians (without further description). Agricolae ( talk) 23:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Is there a reason Theuderic IV is not included in the main list? As far as I can tell, the criterion for including Merovingian kings in the list is that they were called 'king of the Franks', which Theuderic IV was. His absence is particularly confusing since he is mentioned in the text that precedes Childeric III. Aiwendil42 ( talk) 05:02, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
CarstenN ( talk) 10:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)Since 5th June 774 until his death, Charlemagne (Charles I.) had the official title "King of the Francs and Langobards" (Latin: Rex Francorum et Langobardorum), after he had defeated the Langobardian king Desideratus that same year and annected the Langobardian kingdom in Italy.
Later on, the title of the king of Langobards was connected with the title of the king of Italy.
Of the Kings of the (West-)Franks, Charles II. was King of Italy and King of the Langobards from 875 - 877, and Charles the Fat was King of the Langobards and King of Italy from 879 - 887.
I think the complete titles of these kings should be mentioned. CarstenN ( talk) 10:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Can someone please tell me why Louis VIII "the Lion" of France is listed as a king of England (disputed claimant) in the list of English kings, he briefly ruled about half of England from 1216 to 1217 and was proclaimed (not crowned) king at St Paul's cathedral and is rendered mute by the Treaty of Lambeth but there is no mention in the French list of kings of Henry V who controlled half of France and by the Treaty of Troyes is recognised as the heir and regent of France and Henry VI who was crowned king at Notre Dame de Paris on 16 December 1431 and is listed as king of France (disputed) on his page reigning from 21 October 1422 to 19 October 1453. I have no problem of Louis being mentioned in the list of English kings, it just seems wrong that there is none of at least Henry VI in the French list being crowned and all. I am talking about the list of kings not the summary. LordWiltshire1529 ( talk) 14:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I've added Henry VI but it'll probably be removed so at least I tried... LordWiltshire1529 ( talk) 21:13, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Although a FL, the inline citation and referencing is woefully inadequate. I'm going to try and reference the lead and probably give the formatting of the 'notes/references' section a little bit of a rework. Sotakeit ( talk) 09:13, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Odo of Paris was not a member of the Carolingian dynasty.. -- Director ( talk) 02:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Rudolph (Raoul) also wasn't a Carolinigan. He's a Bosonid. -- Director ( talk) 12:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Per MOS:HEADINGS:
Citations should not be placed within or on the same line as section and subsection headings.
Could the references currently appearing in the headings please be relocated somewhere more appropriate? — sroc 💬 15:34, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
An anonymous editor, 167.78.4.19, just added an extra column to the Merovingian dynasty table. Titled "death", it seems the details of the death of each king is what the editor intended to add. However just one king's death has been explained and the column has not been added to any other sections. The details of each of their deaths can be found on their respective articles and so I think the column should be added to the other tables and details added in. This column is also used on List of English Monarchs so I think it's a consistent, useful edit and so I am going to try and bring in info slowly, but would appreciate help. Thanks, SamWilson989 ( talk) 16:26, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm wondering about a few things. Why is Louis XVII depicted on the list who was never a reigning king and Napoleon II, who arguably and technically was emperor for a few days also, while Louis XIX (Angoulleme) and Henri V (Chambord) who were arguably and technically kings of France as good as Napoleon II was emperor for a couple of days, have to make do with a mere mention in a sentence at the end of a section? Shouldn't Louis XVII be the one with a mere mention instead of the other way around? Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 01:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
I again have removed the chart. In showing now-discounted speculation about descent of the Carolingians and Robertians/Capetians from the Merovingians it gives the false impression of continuity. Agricolae ( talk) 04:09, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
=Louis the Pious= | | Louis Charles the German the Bald | | Charles | the Fat =Louis II= ,---^---, `-----, Robert IV Louis III Carloman | ,---^---, Charles Odo Robert I the Simple | | ,---^---, Louis IV Hugh Emma=Rudolph | | Lothar | | Hugh I Louis V |
The list of Merovingian kings does not have any place in a "List of French monarchs" because they were not, by any stretch, "French". They also have their own page, at Merovingian dynasty, so why duplicate content when doing so only introduces problems. It is also quite fantastical to claim that the kingdom of France "was established" in AD 428. If you must include Western Francia, say it was established in 843, there is some reason to that, but then this was Western Francia, not the kingdom of France. The only reasonable starting point for the kingdom of France (as opposed to the Kingdom of the West Franks) and thus of "French monarchs", would be 987. They didn't even speak a romance language. I mean how deluded are the french to actually believe their weird version of history falsification.
Whatever happened to historical accuracy... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.17.140.107 ( talk) 13:44, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
There are mistakes in the family tree, if someone is able to fix them: "Louis XVII (1795-1815)" should read "Louis XVIII (1814-1815, 1815-1824)" and "Charles X (1815-1830)" should read "Charles X (1824-1830)". They are for now indicated in the caption. 92.184.97.56 ( talk) 08:42, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Following a recent edit changing Charles the Bald from Charles I of the West Franks to Charles II (because Charlemagne is Charles I), the list was left with two Charles IIs because Charles the Fat is Charles II (of the West Franks). This has been discussed before at Talk:Charles the Fat#Numbering, where someone explained that Charles the Bald doesn't have a regnal number as king (although he does as emperor). So I have taken out the number and put a footnote in to explain. We still need a source for this though. But I've been bold for now because we obviously can't have two Charles IIs, and Charles I is clearly wrong. Richard75 ( talk) 12:47, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Sort it out here. Richard75 ( talk) 21:07, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
It is anachronistic to group the kings of France with the kings of the Franks, especially when France begins exactly in 1190 under Philip II. Altanner1991 ( talk) 08:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
This is not the right approach. Wikipedia follows reliable sources, even if we personally think they are wrong or anachronistic, rather than using our own criteria to reach conclusions. Look at some general reference books and see where they begin their lists of kings of France. Agricolae ( talk) 00:14, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Well no, just etymological dictionaries and some familiarity on the topic. Altanner1991 ( talk) 16:35, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Is there any reason the infobox was removed? It also seems the list starts in 843 now. I see there was some discussion about it but I don't see a conclusion. Why 843? Charles the Bald ruled from 840, and held the same title as all his predecessors for over 300 years. Also why is the portrait column missing from all the kings before Hugues Capet? This article seems like a bit of a mess. Drilou ( talk) 21:10, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Is there a reason that Napoleon is named "Napoleon I, the Great" from 1804 to 1814, but when he rules in 1815 he is simply "Napoleon I"? Shouldn't it be consistent? Jenks24 ( talk) 15:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Is there any reason why this article, while including the Merovingian and pre-843 Carolingian dynasties, does not list their kings? Lists of the kings of France usually start with Clodio, or at the latest Clovis (as mentioned in the introduction). That is also the case in the French version of this article. Drilou ( talk) 12:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
As I pointed out before (see above), the section on Merovingian king is seriously misguided, selectively listing or omitting kings:
Str1977 (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
more to the point, the list of Merovingian kings does not have any place in a "List of French monarchs" because they were not, by any stretch, "French". They also have their own page, at Merovingian dynasty, so why duplicate content when doing so only introduces problems. It is also quite fantastical to claim that the kingdom of France "was established" in AD 428. If you must include Western Francia, say it was established in 843, there is some reason to that, but then this was Western Francia, not the kingdom of France. The only reasonable starting point for the kingdom of France (as opposed to the Kingdom of the West Franks) and thus of "French monarchs", would be 987. -- dab (𒁳) 11:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
In 486 Clovis defeated the Soissons, but in 509 he unified the Salian Franks and Ripuarian Franks, becoming the king of all the Franks; does that not correspond with "French monarch" better? If only control of Gaul matters, why not start with Syagrius? -- Go-Chlodio ( talk) 12:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
1. It's not clear to me if this article is about monarchs of what is considered France (geografically) or if it is about monarchs that styled themselves are kings of France (since I see Kings of the Franks and Kings of France which is not the same thing). I think it's important to make such distinction and explain in the introduction. The genealogical tree at the top right of the page is for the period 509-1870. The period from 509 to 843 is primarily Frankish and it's not clear why the article completely bypasses the Merovingian dynasty which included Charles Martel and Charlemagne, only starting to list the Carolingian dynasty with Charles the Bald. If this article is about who ruled as as monarchs of France from a geographical standpoint then it should start from 509 with Clovis I. If this entry is about those who styled themselves as royalty of France then it should start in 1180 with Philip II. The languages and cultures of the people who lived in what is now France since the time the Roman Empire dissipated certainly evolved over time and the world of the Franks became the world of France. I think it's important to explain what this article is about and be consistent with tables, titles, dates and genealogical trees.
2. The note on "popular monarchy" is in both the introduction and the "Titles" section. The two are redundant and only one should be in the article.
3. Under Napoleon I and the First Empire, it should also be noted that Napoleon I did not just rule over France but way beyond after conquering large areas of Europe. It does not have to be a long discussion but one or two lines would be useful.
ICE77 ( talk) 06:54, 18 February 2021 (UTC)