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Does Theodora, Empress of Byzantium belong beside Justinian I? I personally would argue yes, but am biased. :) -- April
Another point though is whether to include the symbasileus...es? The coemperors - eg, Andronikos V Palaiologos - or whether they need to have a separate thread somewhere. - Jowfair 6 Aug 2005
Query: if we need to disambiguate, what form should we use? I faked something for Leo IV, because he had an epithet, and because "Leo IV of the Byzantine Empire" is unwieldy, but a general form would help. There are a whole stack of emperors, and popes, named Leo. Vicki Rosenzweig
I just wanted to mention, one of the previous changes was moving the "Pogonatus" nickname from Constans II to Constantine IV....from the sources I've been using, that was a mix-up among later chronicles, and it really was Constans II who had that nickname. So I have restored it to the proper person. Adam Bishop 20:00 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
In reference to when the Byzantine Empire "started" as a numismatist (coin collector) I tend to put the date 498 AD, when Anastasius implemented a radical reform of the monetary system that included bronzes valued according to the Greek numbering scheme (ie M=40,K=20,IB=12,I=10,E=5,A=1 etc). M123 18:41, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
In response to the naming issues mentioned previously, I have moved everyone who was previously disambiguated in various ways to "X of the Byzantine Empire." This seemed better then "Byzantine Emperor X," and definitely better than "X of Byzantium" (which to me suggests they are from the ancient Greek colony, not the medieval empire). There are still some issues, I think, with nicknames and family names. Some have them (such as Isaac II Angelus, and the Lascarids and Palaeologans), while others don't (such as Alexius I, who is quite often known as Alexius I Comnenus). I'm not sure what to do about those yet, but I hope I have made the other ones a little more consistent. Adam Bishop 23:30, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I didn't really think of the consequences of this at the time, but when I divided the list into dynasties, I just made up "proto-Comnenid." They don't really belong to any dynasty, but there were Comnenids in it and they sort of ruled in a similar way to the actual Comnenids. But now that has been copied into other languages, and it is used on other websites that use Wikipedia information...so should we just leave it, or change it because it is unlikely to appear that way in a true scholarly publication? Adam Bishop 19:04, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
In cases where disambiguation is necessary, I have used "X (emperor)." "X of the Byzantine Empire" does not make it seem like the addition is for disambiguation purposes; rather, because it matches the form used for other monarchs, it indicates that it is just following conventions. Nevertheless, I would suggest something simple like just "X" even where disambiguation is necessary, but to have "X (disambiguation)" linked to at the top. For example, "Constantine I" would be the article on Constantine the Great, while "Constantine I (disambiguation)" would link to all the various Constantines. -- Emsworth 13:19, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
I've tried to write out family relations, but I didn't want to copy this over the current article, yet:
"Constantinian dynasty", if it can be described that way:
Non-dynastic:
"Theodosian Dynasty":
Dynasty of Leo, not really the same as Theodosian:
"Justinian Dynasty" for lack of better term:
Non-dynastic or at least a brief different dynasty:
Non-dynastic:
"Heraclian Dynasty":
Non-dynastic:
Isaurian Dynasty, which is a real term, at least moreso than the previous "dynasties":
Non-dynastic, or a new dynasty of some sort:
Non-dynastic:
Amorian (or Phrygian) Dynasty (another real term):
Macedonian Dynasty (definitely a real term):
Non-dynastic (?):
Back to the Macedonians, or something else?:
A bunch of non-dynastic people I foolishly called "proto-Comnenan":
Comnenan Dynasty (an actual term):
Angelan Dynasty (I think I've seen this term used...but the Comnenus, Ducas, and Angelus families are all related anyway):
Lascaran Dynasty (in exile as the Empire of Nicaea) (just a convenient term for the exiled emperors, but they are related to the Comenus/Ducas/Angelus families):
Palaeologan Dynasty (restored at Constantinople) (also a real term):
Does this make the page any better? I suppose it could use even more info like the Roman Emperor page. Adam Bishop 18:55, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Adam seems to have done a great job with the dynasties. But I wonder about a few differences with the standard separation found in most publications concerning the Byzantine Empire available in Greece today:
Should we follow the standard or add explanations against it? User: Dimadick
I am afraid most of them are Greek publications but they notably include:
If Nicephorus III Botaniates married Michael VII Ducas' widow, how is it that Micheal VII Ducas outlived Nicophorus by nine years? Wouldn't you have to be dead in order to have a widow?
Michael VII Ducas (1050-1090,ruled 1067 - 1078)
Nicephorus III Botaniates (1001-1081, ruled 1078 - 1081) - married Michael VII's widow.
Anyone know why Leontius II is given that numbering? There's no Leontius I. -- Jfruh 19:30, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok - recent changes.
a) Fixed up the introduction to more adequately describe changes in monarchal titles, which seems like it should be the focus of this thread. The currency stuff is interesting, but more appropriate for the Byzantine Empire or Byzantine thread, to me. b) Added a title section to the top. c) Added Latinate names and Greek names from the [ Byzantine page] d) Added the first few Palaiologids in exile to the bottom. We should probably start one on Byzantine pretenders, but since the legitimate male branch seems to die out just a little after Andreas sold all the titles anyway, not much loss on that score. e) Replaced the Latinatizations of the Greek epigraphs with translations and left the Greek next to it. f) Did my best to create links to the existing dynastic category threads. Unfortunately a direct category link makes the title disappear... g) Added links to the born-death dates in addition to the regnal dates... Why were they missing in the first place? h) Cleaned up the syntax and form as well as I could i) Added some missing birth/death dates j) Reformated the list to reflect when monarchs were deposed and restored in a more accurate and less confusing manner k) Fixed the non-dynastic lists as well as one's able - yknow, still counting father-in-law-to seems odd now... But like I mentioned before, not as much back then... l) Added in the Saints as I was going through; if anyone is knowledgeable/patient in these matters, please feel free to improve and add others I may have overlooked. Constantine XI has always been treated as a saint, but because of the Union, I don't believe either church ever canonized or even beatified him m) Added in the ultimate fate of some of those monarchs who didn't die peacefully n) Added Pulcheria o) The list of titles given next to Constantine in the main Roman Emperor thread was confusing - by the end were they all added? or were those titles he held and discarded? p) If anyone has better data on rank or position than "soldier" or "officer" please do update the appropriate entries. q) Any Hellenophones know what ο Αδραμμυττηνός is? or Καβαλίνος? ο Τραυλός? ο Γέρος? [edit - got the last one!] good translation of Monomakhos - "Single-Combat" - or should it just be left as the family name it is? I've rendered Kalos as "the Beautiful" - should it be "the Good" instead? r) We should have a link to the Trapezountid dynasty at least; maybe the Epiriots... s) Can we not say "the Shit-named"? It wasn't like they were being gentle with their wording... t) Saw a website listing Emperor Konstantin IX "Euergetes" Monomachus instead of Eugenes for 'the Well-born' - anyone know if this is accurate? - Jowfair 6 Aug 2005
Constantine I is listed on the article as the first Byzantine Emperor, though on his article, he doesn't have a box on the bottom saying that he was a Byzantine Emperor and who he was succeded by. Also, emperors starting from Constantine I to Theodosius I don't have that box as well. Should I start adding those boxes to the articles? Funnybunny ( talk/ Counter Vandalism Unit) 21:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
A mini-revert just happened over the opening sentence of this article, which reads "This is a list of the Emperors of the late Eastern Roman Empire, called Byzantine." I think its worth adding a few words to make it clear that "Byzantine" is a term used by modern historiographers, not by the emperors themselves under consideration. How about:
"This is a list of the Emperors of the late Eastern Roman Empire, called Byzantine by modern historians."
-- Jfruh 13:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Does Theodora, Empress of Byzantium belong beside Justinian I? I personally would argue yes, but am biased. :) -- April
Another point though is whether to include the symbasileus...es? The coemperors - eg, Andronikos V Palaiologos - or whether they need to have a separate thread somewhere. - Jowfair 6 Aug 2005
Query: if we need to disambiguate, what form should we use? I faked something for Leo IV, because he had an epithet, and because "Leo IV of the Byzantine Empire" is unwieldy, but a general form would help. There are a whole stack of emperors, and popes, named Leo. Vicki Rosenzweig
I just wanted to mention, one of the previous changes was moving the "Pogonatus" nickname from Constans II to Constantine IV....from the sources I've been using, that was a mix-up among later chronicles, and it really was Constans II who had that nickname. So I have restored it to the proper person. Adam Bishop 20:00 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
In reference to when the Byzantine Empire "started" as a numismatist (coin collector) I tend to put the date 498 AD, when Anastasius implemented a radical reform of the monetary system that included bronzes valued according to the Greek numbering scheme (ie M=40,K=20,IB=12,I=10,E=5,A=1 etc). M123 18:41, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
In response to the naming issues mentioned previously, I have moved everyone who was previously disambiguated in various ways to "X of the Byzantine Empire." This seemed better then "Byzantine Emperor X," and definitely better than "X of Byzantium" (which to me suggests they are from the ancient Greek colony, not the medieval empire). There are still some issues, I think, with nicknames and family names. Some have them (such as Isaac II Angelus, and the Lascarids and Palaeologans), while others don't (such as Alexius I, who is quite often known as Alexius I Comnenus). I'm not sure what to do about those yet, but I hope I have made the other ones a little more consistent. Adam Bishop 23:30, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I didn't really think of the consequences of this at the time, but when I divided the list into dynasties, I just made up "proto-Comnenid." They don't really belong to any dynasty, but there were Comnenids in it and they sort of ruled in a similar way to the actual Comnenids. But now that has been copied into other languages, and it is used on other websites that use Wikipedia information...so should we just leave it, or change it because it is unlikely to appear that way in a true scholarly publication? Adam Bishop 19:04, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
In cases where disambiguation is necessary, I have used "X (emperor)." "X of the Byzantine Empire" does not make it seem like the addition is for disambiguation purposes; rather, because it matches the form used for other monarchs, it indicates that it is just following conventions. Nevertheless, I would suggest something simple like just "X" even where disambiguation is necessary, but to have "X (disambiguation)" linked to at the top. For example, "Constantine I" would be the article on Constantine the Great, while "Constantine I (disambiguation)" would link to all the various Constantines. -- Emsworth 13:19, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
I've tried to write out family relations, but I didn't want to copy this over the current article, yet:
"Constantinian dynasty", if it can be described that way:
Non-dynastic:
"Theodosian Dynasty":
Dynasty of Leo, not really the same as Theodosian:
"Justinian Dynasty" for lack of better term:
Non-dynastic or at least a brief different dynasty:
Non-dynastic:
"Heraclian Dynasty":
Non-dynastic:
Isaurian Dynasty, which is a real term, at least moreso than the previous "dynasties":
Non-dynastic, or a new dynasty of some sort:
Non-dynastic:
Amorian (or Phrygian) Dynasty (another real term):
Macedonian Dynasty (definitely a real term):
Non-dynastic (?):
Back to the Macedonians, or something else?:
A bunch of non-dynastic people I foolishly called "proto-Comnenan":
Comnenan Dynasty (an actual term):
Angelan Dynasty (I think I've seen this term used...but the Comnenus, Ducas, and Angelus families are all related anyway):
Lascaran Dynasty (in exile as the Empire of Nicaea) (just a convenient term for the exiled emperors, but they are related to the Comenus/Ducas/Angelus families):
Palaeologan Dynasty (restored at Constantinople) (also a real term):
Does this make the page any better? I suppose it could use even more info like the Roman Emperor page. Adam Bishop 18:55, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Adam seems to have done a great job with the dynasties. But I wonder about a few differences with the standard separation found in most publications concerning the Byzantine Empire available in Greece today:
Should we follow the standard or add explanations against it? User: Dimadick
I am afraid most of them are Greek publications but they notably include:
If Nicephorus III Botaniates married Michael VII Ducas' widow, how is it that Micheal VII Ducas outlived Nicophorus by nine years? Wouldn't you have to be dead in order to have a widow?
Michael VII Ducas (1050-1090,ruled 1067 - 1078)
Nicephorus III Botaniates (1001-1081, ruled 1078 - 1081) - married Michael VII's widow.
Anyone know why Leontius II is given that numbering? There's no Leontius I. -- Jfruh 19:30, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok - recent changes.
a) Fixed up the introduction to more adequately describe changes in monarchal titles, which seems like it should be the focus of this thread. The currency stuff is interesting, but more appropriate for the Byzantine Empire or Byzantine thread, to me. b) Added a title section to the top. c) Added Latinate names and Greek names from the [ Byzantine page] d) Added the first few Palaiologids in exile to the bottom. We should probably start one on Byzantine pretenders, but since the legitimate male branch seems to die out just a little after Andreas sold all the titles anyway, not much loss on that score. e) Replaced the Latinatizations of the Greek epigraphs with translations and left the Greek next to it. f) Did my best to create links to the existing dynastic category threads. Unfortunately a direct category link makes the title disappear... g) Added links to the born-death dates in addition to the regnal dates... Why were they missing in the first place? h) Cleaned up the syntax and form as well as I could i) Added some missing birth/death dates j) Reformated the list to reflect when monarchs were deposed and restored in a more accurate and less confusing manner k) Fixed the non-dynastic lists as well as one's able - yknow, still counting father-in-law-to seems odd now... But like I mentioned before, not as much back then... l) Added in the Saints as I was going through; if anyone is knowledgeable/patient in these matters, please feel free to improve and add others I may have overlooked. Constantine XI has always been treated as a saint, but because of the Union, I don't believe either church ever canonized or even beatified him m) Added in the ultimate fate of some of those monarchs who didn't die peacefully n) Added Pulcheria o) The list of titles given next to Constantine in the main Roman Emperor thread was confusing - by the end were they all added? or were those titles he held and discarded? p) If anyone has better data on rank or position than "soldier" or "officer" please do update the appropriate entries. q) Any Hellenophones know what ο Αδραμμυττηνός is? or Καβαλίνος? ο Τραυλός? ο Γέρος? [edit - got the last one!] good translation of Monomakhos - "Single-Combat" - or should it just be left as the family name it is? I've rendered Kalos as "the Beautiful" - should it be "the Good" instead? r) We should have a link to the Trapezountid dynasty at least; maybe the Epiriots... s) Can we not say "the Shit-named"? It wasn't like they were being gentle with their wording... t) Saw a website listing Emperor Konstantin IX "Euergetes" Monomachus instead of Eugenes for 'the Well-born' - anyone know if this is accurate? - Jowfair 6 Aug 2005
Constantine I is listed on the article as the first Byzantine Emperor, though on his article, he doesn't have a box on the bottom saying that he was a Byzantine Emperor and who he was succeded by. Also, emperors starting from Constantine I to Theodosius I don't have that box as well. Should I start adding those boxes to the articles? Funnybunny ( talk/ Counter Vandalism Unit) 21:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
A mini-revert just happened over the opening sentence of this article, which reads "This is a list of the Emperors of the late Eastern Roman Empire, called Byzantine." I think its worth adding a few words to make it clear that "Byzantine" is a term used by modern historiographers, not by the emperors themselves under consideration. How about:
"This is a list of the Emperors of the late Eastern Roman Empire, called Byzantine by modern historians."
-- Jfruh 13:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)