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I get that premiership is used to define the regular season champions, but the term is infrequently used in the United States and Canada, and more heavily used in Australia. Quidster4040 ( talk) 14:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I first only had a problem with the misuse of the term 'Regional' but the more I examined the article, the more I realized it was really a pastiche. It needs to be refined significantly. I suggest looking at WP:NOR and WP:NOT, especially the sections on mirrors and indiscriminate collections of info. There are references to sources that are identical(same researchers). US soccer archives are essentially a mirror of US/Canadian data on RSSSF. Both of these are like blogs where rsssf is really a newsgroup. Wikipedia articles should not just be copy pasted from another site. Included are women's soccer as well as indoor which in some sense are considered different sports. I would suggest focusing on one country or more appropriately just the top mens division. Leave 2nd and 3rd division data as external links. As I mentioned above there is also the use of the term regional for national competitions which are placed in a section that includes a city league(St.Louis). While the St.Louis league boasted national champions, it only occurred in a particular era. Other leagues like GASL of NY and Greater LA soccer league also had a number of national champions but they are absent from this article. Either way the scope of the article is too big. There are way too many 'soccer champions' that can be included here. In fact, most of the info on this page already appears in at least one and in some cases two other articles here on wikipedia. Libro0 ( talk) 00:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
If Atlanta is to be given credit for the 1969 premiership due to the NASL's awkward points system, then shouldn't the three other clubs who had the exact same thing happen, Seattle 1980, Vancouver 1983 and San Diego 1984, all be given recognition for having the best record in their respective years as well? If so, this would also affect their totals (as well as New York and Chicago's) in the previous section of that page titled Overall Totals. As it stands, either Atlanta should be removed and Kansas City given the 1969 premiership -or Seattle, Vancouver and San Diego should all gain premierships with New York (twice) and Chicago getting stripped of theirs. Or perhaps, both the "most points" and "best record" should be recognized in those 4 seasons' premierships. Personally I have no preference, except that it be consistent throughout. No matter what, something needs to be done to standardize these two tables.
whoops, forgot to sign it.-- Creativewill ( talk) 18:00, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorted, worked with Creativewill to correct it with 'most points' being key. -- Fifty7 ( talk) 20:35, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Any thought of recognizing these leagues and their related data from 1967 as Div 1 champions, etc.? They were on here before, but I saw no discussion of why they were completely removed, rather than relocated. The United Soccer Association was sanctioned by both FIFA and the USSF. The teams were comprised of rebranded teams (10 from Europe, 2 from South America) because the owners couldn't put their own teams together on short notice. Their competition, National Professional Soccer League, was considered an outlaw league by FIFA, however to my knowledge no one ever received any FIFA penalty for participating, and many of the players went on to play in the NASL in subsequent seasons. The NPSL also had a television contract with CBS. Moreover the NASL always considered both leagues as part of their history, because they had merged to form the NASL. At the very least they should have a place somewhere in the minor championships section as they are an undeniable part of North American soccer history, but personally I think they should both be placed in the D1 section. Anyone else want to chime in with their thoughts? Creativewill ( talk) 15:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
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It was seen as the first significant, viable, professional soccer league in the United States because it attracted many talented football/soccer players from Europe and rivaled the National Football League (NFL) and perhaps the National Hockey League (NHL) in popularity (thus being the second most popular professional sports league in the country behind Major League Baseball (MLB). The ASL collapsed due to the "Soccer Wars" with the USFA and the Great Depression. Should the ASL be recognized under the Major titles section? 2601:5C4:4301:5420:6C6D:AC9A:C139:8996 ( talk) 01:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Blaixx and Bergeronpp: I noticed this discussion regarding the ASL, and I found three book sources: Marketing and Football (2012), Soccer For Dummies (2013), Major League Baseball Expansions and Relocations (this source lists "major professional" sports leagues in the U.S. among the five major team sports and listed the ASL (1921) and NASL as the only pro soccer leagues other than MLS). 2601:5C4:4301:5420:DCC4:6103:4161:129E ( talk) 22:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Oppose I know this isn't a formal RfC, but I am in agreement with Blaixx. The league had no sanctioning by the then USFA or by FIFA and in most references that exist on the subject, usually only the NASL and MLS are mentioned as the top-level professional leagues in the United States. I don't think it is appropriate to use counterfactual approaches of what could have been to justify its inclusion in "major titles", nor is the comparison to then very fledgling leagues of the NFL or NHL appropriate. I also agree with Blaixx that the sources provided claiming to be Division I titles are not reliable, but I don't think separating out different eras of the US Open Cup is necessary. I do believe that given the ASL's prominence at the time that it definitely deserves recognition under "minor titles". Jay eyem ( talk) 16:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
References
I think this article is due for a major overhaul. There is currently no inclusion criteria for what belongs on this page which has resulted in more and more competitions being added. As a result, this article has become far too large to be read comfortably. For comparison, many other "List of X-country champions" such as List of English football champions only include a list of the D1 league champions. I don't think we need to go that far but I propose the following changes:
If we implement all of these changes, the resulting article would look something like this (quick draft). It's still quite long but I think it would be a good first step. BLAIXX 17:19, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
I get that the Whitecaps are a Phoenix club and I completely agree with counting all of their titles from all incarnations, however, the team won one NASL title and were a runner-up for the Regular Season title twice. They have never won MLS Cup or Supporters Shield.
This article does not list the titles won in any of the leagues that existed between the time of NASL and the MLS because there was no recognized D1 league as far as I know. If there was one, then that league and results should be listed here.
By what is listed here, their total should be 1 league title, ZERO regular season titles with 2 runner-up finishes and 3 domestic cup titles. unak 1978 20:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of American and Canadian soccer champions article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I get that premiership is used to define the regular season champions, but the term is infrequently used in the United States and Canada, and more heavily used in Australia. Quidster4040 ( talk) 14:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I first only had a problem with the misuse of the term 'Regional' but the more I examined the article, the more I realized it was really a pastiche. It needs to be refined significantly. I suggest looking at WP:NOR and WP:NOT, especially the sections on mirrors and indiscriminate collections of info. There are references to sources that are identical(same researchers). US soccer archives are essentially a mirror of US/Canadian data on RSSSF. Both of these are like blogs where rsssf is really a newsgroup. Wikipedia articles should not just be copy pasted from another site. Included are women's soccer as well as indoor which in some sense are considered different sports. I would suggest focusing on one country or more appropriately just the top mens division. Leave 2nd and 3rd division data as external links. As I mentioned above there is also the use of the term regional for national competitions which are placed in a section that includes a city league(St.Louis). While the St.Louis league boasted national champions, it only occurred in a particular era. Other leagues like GASL of NY and Greater LA soccer league also had a number of national champions but they are absent from this article. Either way the scope of the article is too big. There are way too many 'soccer champions' that can be included here. In fact, most of the info on this page already appears in at least one and in some cases two other articles here on wikipedia. Libro0 ( talk) 00:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
If Atlanta is to be given credit for the 1969 premiership due to the NASL's awkward points system, then shouldn't the three other clubs who had the exact same thing happen, Seattle 1980, Vancouver 1983 and San Diego 1984, all be given recognition for having the best record in their respective years as well? If so, this would also affect their totals (as well as New York and Chicago's) in the previous section of that page titled Overall Totals. As it stands, either Atlanta should be removed and Kansas City given the 1969 premiership -or Seattle, Vancouver and San Diego should all gain premierships with New York (twice) and Chicago getting stripped of theirs. Or perhaps, both the "most points" and "best record" should be recognized in those 4 seasons' premierships. Personally I have no preference, except that it be consistent throughout. No matter what, something needs to be done to standardize these two tables.
whoops, forgot to sign it.-- Creativewill ( talk) 18:00, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorted, worked with Creativewill to correct it with 'most points' being key. -- Fifty7 ( talk) 20:35, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Any thought of recognizing these leagues and their related data from 1967 as Div 1 champions, etc.? They were on here before, but I saw no discussion of why they were completely removed, rather than relocated. The United Soccer Association was sanctioned by both FIFA and the USSF. The teams were comprised of rebranded teams (10 from Europe, 2 from South America) because the owners couldn't put their own teams together on short notice. Their competition, National Professional Soccer League, was considered an outlaw league by FIFA, however to my knowledge no one ever received any FIFA penalty for participating, and many of the players went on to play in the NASL in subsequent seasons. The NPSL also had a television contract with CBS. Moreover the NASL always considered both leagues as part of their history, because they had merged to form the NASL. At the very least they should have a place somewhere in the minor championships section as they are an undeniable part of North American soccer history, but personally I think they should both be placed in the D1 section. Anyone else want to chime in with their thoughts? Creativewill ( talk) 15:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of American and Canadian soccer champions. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
It was seen as the first significant, viable, professional soccer league in the United States because it attracted many talented football/soccer players from Europe and rivaled the National Football League (NFL) and perhaps the National Hockey League (NHL) in popularity (thus being the second most popular professional sports league in the country behind Major League Baseball (MLB). The ASL collapsed due to the "Soccer Wars" with the USFA and the Great Depression. Should the ASL be recognized under the Major titles section? 2601:5C4:4301:5420:6C6D:AC9A:C139:8996 ( talk) 01:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Blaixx and Bergeronpp: I noticed this discussion regarding the ASL, and I found three book sources: Marketing and Football (2012), Soccer For Dummies (2013), Major League Baseball Expansions and Relocations (this source lists "major professional" sports leagues in the U.S. among the five major team sports and listed the ASL (1921) and NASL as the only pro soccer leagues other than MLS). 2601:5C4:4301:5420:DCC4:6103:4161:129E ( talk) 22:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Oppose I know this isn't a formal RfC, but I am in agreement with Blaixx. The league had no sanctioning by the then USFA or by FIFA and in most references that exist on the subject, usually only the NASL and MLS are mentioned as the top-level professional leagues in the United States. I don't think it is appropriate to use counterfactual approaches of what could have been to justify its inclusion in "major titles", nor is the comparison to then very fledgling leagues of the NFL or NHL appropriate. I also agree with Blaixx that the sources provided claiming to be Division I titles are not reliable, but I don't think separating out different eras of the US Open Cup is necessary. I do believe that given the ASL's prominence at the time that it definitely deserves recognition under "minor titles". Jay eyem ( talk) 16:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
References
I think this article is due for a major overhaul. There is currently no inclusion criteria for what belongs on this page which has resulted in more and more competitions being added. As a result, this article has become far too large to be read comfortably. For comparison, many other "List of X-country champions" such as List of English football champions only include a list of the D1 league champions. I don't think we need to go that far but I propose the following changes:
If we implement all of these changes, the resulting article would look something like this (quick draft). It's still quite long but I think it would be a good first step. BLAIXX 17:19, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
I get that the Whitecaps are a Phoenix club and I completely agree with counting all of their titles from all incarnations, however, the team won one NASL title and were a runner-up for the Regular Season title twice. They have never won MLS Cup or Supporters Shield.
This article does not list the titles won in any of the leagues that existed between the time of NASL and the MLS because there was no recognized D1 league as far as I know. If there was one, then that league and results should be listed here.
By what is listed here, their total should be 1 league title, ZERO regular season titles with 2 runner-up finishes and 3 domestic cup titles. unak 1978 20:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)